Sharon Rufo, Plaintiff vs. Orenthal James Simpson, et al., Defendants
VOLUME 1
DEPOSITION OF ROBERT G. KARDASHIAN
Los Angeles, California
May 3, 1996
DAVID S. COLEMAN
CSR #4613
JOB NO. 96-1340
SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES
SHARON RUFO, Plaintiff
vs.
ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON, et al., Defendants.
FREDERIC GOLMAN, etc., et al., Plaintiff,
vs.
ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON, et al., Defendants.
LOUIS H. BROWN, etc., Plaintiffs,
vs.
ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON, Defendant.
VOLUME I
Videotaped deposition of ROBERT G. KARDASHIAN, taken on behalf of the Plaintiffs, at 11377 West Olympic Boulevard, 10th Floor, Los Angeles, California, commencing at 9:35 a.m., on Friday, May 3, 1996, before David S. Coleman, CSR #4613, pursuant to Subpoena.
APPEARANCES:
FOR THE PLAINTIFFS FREDERIC GOLDMAN, ET AL.:
MITCHELL, SILBERBERG & KNUPP
BY DANIEL M. PETROCELLI, ESQ.
ARTHUR GROMAN, ESQ.
YVETTE MOLINARO, ESQ.
11377 West Olympic Boulevard
Six Floor
Los Angeles, California 90064-1683
FOR THE PLAINTIFF ESTATE OF BROWN:
JOHN QUINLAN KELLY, ESQ.
330 Madison Avenue
New York, New York 10017-5090
(212) 682-1700
-and-
NATASHA ROIT, ESQ.
116 North Robertson Boulevard
Suite 705
FOR THE PLAINTIFF SHARON RUFO:
HORNBERGER & CRISWELL
BY: MICHAEL A. BREWER, ESQ.
444 South Flower Street
Thirty-First Floor
Los Angeles, California 90071
FOR THE DEFENDANT ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON:
BAKER, SILBERBERG & KEENER
BY: STEVEN R. VAN SICKLEN, ESQ.
2850 Ocean Park Boulevard
Suite 300
Santa Monica, California 90405-2936
-and-
BAILEY, FISHMAN & LEONARD
66 Long Wharf
Boston, Massachusetts 02110
(617) 723-1980
(Of the record but not present)
-and-
ROBERT D. BLASIER, ESQ
6355 Riverside Boulevard
Suite 2-F
Sacramento, California 95831
(916) 427-1600
(Of record but not present)
FOR THE WITNESS:
MICHAELSON & LEVINE
BY JANET I. LEVINE, ESQ.
1901 Avenue of the Stars
Suite 1708
Los Angeles, California 90067
ALSO PRESENT: FREDRIC GOLDMAN
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. Here begins videotape number 1 in the deposition of Robert G. Kardashian in the consolidated cases of Fredric Goldman, Sharon Rufo and Louis Brown vs. Orenthal James Simpson in the Superior Court, State of California, County of Los Angeles, the lead case number of which is SC031947.
Today's date is Friday, May 3rd, 1996.The time is approximately 9:35. This deposition is being taken at 11377 West Olympic Boulevard in Los Angeles, California, and was made at the request of the plaintiff of the Law Offices of Mitchell, Silberberg & Knupp.
The videographer is Rod Rigole, employed by Coleman, Haas Martin & Schwab of Los Angeles, California.
Would could counsel please identify yourselves and state who you represent.
MR. KELLY: Yes. John Kelly for the Estate of Nicole Brown Simpson.
MS. ROIT: Natasha Roit for the Estate of Nicole Brown Simpson.
MR. PETROCELLI: Daniel Petrocelli for Plaintiff Fredric Goldman.
MR. BREWER: Michael Brewer for Plaintiff Sharon Rufo.
MR. VAN SICKLEN: Steve Van Sicklen for Mr. Simpson.
MS. MOLINARO: Yvette Molinaro for Plaintiff Fredric Goldman.
MS. LEVINE: Janet Levine for the witness Mr. Kardashian.
MR. PETROCELLI: Before we begin, I want to make a statement for the record. I had subpoenaed this deposition some time ago, and at the request of Mr. Baker's office it had been put off to accommodate the schedule of Robert Baker, so he could personally be at the deposition.
He is not at the deposition. Mr. Van Sicklen is here. In light of the likely number of objections that will be made here and the need to go to court and the delay that that will entail, I would like to put my objection on the record to this needless delay of several weeks to accommodate Mr. Baker when in fact he is not even here.
MR. BREWER: We join in the objection.
MR. VAN SICKLEN: Amen.
MR. KELLY: I guess I do, too.
MS. LEVINE: Before we begin, I have a statement on behalf of Mr. Kardashian. As all counsel know, I believe I haven't spoken with Mr. Brewer, I believe. I've spoken with Mr. Kelly and Mr. Petrocelli as well as Mr. Van Sicklen Mr. Kardashian as a lawyer is obligated to assert privilege on behalf of his then client, O.J. Simpson, with regard to any communications, actions or otherwise that are communicative that took place during the course of his representation of Mr. Simpson or while he was acting as perceived by Mr. Simpson as a lawyer.
He will answer any questions that he can answer, but it is not up to him to waive he privilege. He is obligated, as we all know, to assert the privilege on behalf of his client, and he intends to do that whenever is appropriate.
MR. KELLY: All done?
MS. LEVINE: (Nods head.)
MR. KELLY: Great.
ROBERT G. KARDASHIAN, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
EXAMINATION BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Good morning, Mr. Kardashian.
A: Good morning, Mr. Kelly.
Q: You obviously know my name. You know I represent the Estate of Nicole Brown Simpson?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. If there are any questions I ask you that you don't you understand, just let me know and I will try to rephrase them or make them intelligible for you. Okay?
A: Thank you.
Q: And also if there is any time after I have asked a question or for some other reason you feel you want to speak to your attorney, just let us know and we will take a break and go off the record and certainly accommodate you with that also.
A: Thank you.
Q: And you understand you are under oath right now?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Have you ever given a deposition before?
A: Yes, I have.
Q: On more than one occasion?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Could you tell me when you gave that one deposition?
A: In my divorce.
Q: Okay. And was that '89 or '90?
A: Around there.
Q: Okay. Other than that deposition, have you given any other sworn testimony in any case?
A: In the Simpson case, yes.
Q: And was that at the Grand Jury proceeding?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Did you have the opportunity at any time to review your Grand Jury testimony subsequent to giving it?
A: Yes, I did. I did review it whenever it was taken.
Q: And after reviewing it, were you comfortable with the fact that you had answered the questions as fully and accurately as possible at that time?
MS. LEVINE: Objection. That will call for him to acknowledge information that may or may not have been privileged in there, and I am going to instruct him not to answer on the grounds that that deposition if he answers, that statement, that Grand Jury statement, could be considered to include privileged information.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Mr. Kardashian, have you ever taken someone else's deposition?
A: No, I have not.
Q: Okay. You realize the implications of your sworn testimony here today, though?
A: Yes.
Q: And that it can be used at a future date at trial for impeachment purposes?
A: Yes.
Q: Before coming in here today for your deposition, did you review any documents in preparation for this deposition?
A: No, I did not.
Q: Did you review any trial transcripts from the Simpson criminal trial?
A: No
Q: Did you review any of the other deposition testimony taken in the civil case prior to today?
A: No, I did not.
Q: Did you review any videotapes whatsoever prior to your deposition today?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: What videotapes did you have occasion to review?
A: I reviewed a few of my interviews that I gave to the media.
Q: Okay. Was one of those interviews an interview with Kristen Jeanette Meyer
A: No.
Q: of Court TV?
A: No.
Q: Do you recall giving an interview with her?
A: Yes.
Q: But that was not one that you reviewed?
A: That's correct.
Q: Was one of the ones you reviewed an interview with Larry King?
A: Yes.
Q: Other than the Larry King videotape, could you tell me what other videotapes you reviewed?
A: Yes. I reviewed the videotape of "Dateline NBC," a videotape of I believe it was "48 Hours," and I think that's it. Oh, I'm sorry. I also reviewed a videotape of some I don't know what show it was about me carrying this bag.
Q: Do you recall in what month and year you gave the "Dateline" interview that you reviewed?
A: Yes.
Q: When was that?
A: October of '95.
Q: And with regard to the "48 Hours" interview, do you recall what month and year you gave that interview?
A: That was the same day.
Q: And with regard to the videotape of you carrying the bag, do you know what show that was?
A: No, that I don't.
Q: Was that a verbal was that a national interview also regarding that show?
A: No, it was not an interview. It was just it was one of the tabloid shows.
Q: And do you In the "Larry King Live" interview that was early October l995 also, was it not?
A: I believe so. It was around that time, yes.
Q: Prior to giving your "Dateline" interview, did you have any discussions with Mr. Simpson regarding the interview you were going to give?
MS. LEVINE: Objection. It may call for privileged information, and I need to think about it for a minute, think where it leads.
MR. KELLY: Okay.
MR. VAN SICKLEN: Well, I think that any discussions let's just establish foundation first that Mr. Kardashian was Mr. Simpson's one of Mr. Simpson's lawyers. I think we need to do that.
MR. KELLY: Okay. I will come back to it then. You people can think about it in the meantime.
Q: Mr. Kardashian, could you tell me the last time you spoke to Mr. Simpson?
A: Yes. It was either Monday or Tuesday of this week.
Q: And could you tell me the substance of that discussion?
MS. LEVINE: Objection. Calls for privileged information.
MR. KELLY: Miss Levine, is it your position that Mr. Kardashian is as of this date still represents Mr. Simpson?
MS. LEVINE: It's my position that sometimes when you're a lawyer for somebody that relationship doesn't end, and while you might not be representing them in connection with let's say this particular proceeding, because Mr. Kardashian does not represent Mr. Simpson in this civil case that's ongoing, he has a relationship with him such that their communications can be, depending on what the communication is, privileged.
For example, if he called up and he said, "What's the weather outside," that wouldn't be privileged, but if he called and talked about the course and scope of their representation, that could be privileged.
And because the questioning is so broad and because the relationship between Mr. Kardashian and Mr. Simpson, which hasn't been gone into, was so deep and intense in terms of the representation, it can't be narrowed down into we're just talking about a patent, and that's the only part of the relationship. This is a very broad relationship. That's the problem.
MR. KELLY: Well, is it your position then that this particular conversation was a privileged conversation, or is it your position that any conversation Mr. Kardashian has ever had with Mr. Simpson is privileged?
MS. LEVINE: No, I don't think any conversation he's ever had with him is privileged. I think, from what I understand, this particular conversation was privileged.
MR. KELLY: Okay.
Q: Mr. Kardashian, subsequent to October 3rd, 1995 have you had any conversations with Mr. Simpson that did not relate to the to your legal representation of Mr. Simpson?
A: Yes.
Q: Could you tell me when that first conversation was subsequent to October 3rd, 1995?
A: No, I couldn't be specific.
Q: Could you tell me how many times you've spoken to him in a capacity other than as an attorney to Mr. Simpson since that time?
A: No. I'd just be guessing. If you want me to guess, I could give you an estimate.
Q: I would like you to give me your best guess.
A: Maybe l0.
Q: And it's your testimony then, other than those conversations, all others were in your capacity as an attorney for Mr. Simpson?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Prior to the conversation you had this past I think you said Monday or Tuesday?
A: Yes.
Q: Could you tell me when you had spoken to Mr. Simpson prior to then?
A: Probably 30 days prior.
Q: And did you call Mr. Simpson, or did he call you?
A: I called him.
Q: And could you relate to me the substance of that conversation?
MS. LEVINE: Can we have a minute, please?
MR. KELLY: Sure.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 9:46.
(Discussion held between the witness and counsel outside the hearing of the reporter.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record now, and the time is approximately 9:48.
MR. KELLY: Let's read the last question back first. Okay?
MS. LEVINE: Sure.
(Pending question read as follows:
"Q: And could you relate to me the substance of that conversation?")
MS. LEVINE: The conversation they had includes privileged information. If you want the non-privileged information and if Mr. Simpson's lawyer has no objection, then we can parse it out for you.
MR. KELLY: Okay. Why don't we parse it out and then see if we get an objection.
MR. PETROCELLI: Mr. Simpson's lawyer doesn't have any business making or taking a position with regard to non-privileged information.
MS. LEVINE: No. But with regard to privileged information and with regard to whether it s a complete covered within the privileged. it's my understanding that Mr. Simpson is the holder of the privilege.
And so it's my instruction to Mr. Kardashian that if his Mr. Simpson's lawyer believes there is a privileged communication and that he shouldn't answer it, Mr. Kardashian is best off not answering it, and if you all have some dispute about that, we await whatever resolution there is. But it's not Mr. Kardashian's decision that's important here.
MR. VAN SICKLEN: And we are raking the position that there was an attorney-client relationship and may be and there are privileged items and information that exist, and I do not want Mr. Kardashian testifying about those things, but I don't have any problem with your asking questions relating to factual issues and things like that that occurred surrounding the events of this case.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Could you answer the question, please?
A: Yes, sir. The non-privileged material we discussed was I asked him about his children, how they were doing, and it was basically children oriented questions.
Q: And it's your position that or her that the part of the conversation regarding children, it was a privileged conversation?
A: Yes.
Q: So it's your testimony that the last two conversations you've had with Mr. Simpson that you've testified to, other than this little thing about the children, have been privileged communications?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Mr. Kardashian, do you recall giving a statement June 17th, 1994 to the police?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And you indicated that you testified before the Grand Jury previously.
A: Yes.
Q: And you gave an interview to "Larry King Live."
A: Yes.
Q: And you were interviewed for "Dateline."
A: Yes.
Q: And you were interviewed for "48 Hours."
A: Yes.
Q: Do you know whether you gave any other interviews, other than the ones I've just mentioned?
A: I gave an interview to Barbara Walters.
Q: Was that for "20/20"?
A: Yes. No, it was not. It was for I gave all these interviews all at the same day. It was the day of the verdict.
Q: The day of or the day after?
A: I believe the day of. And so whether it was for "20/20" or "Dateline," I don't know if that's what they called the shows, but it was those are the people I gave the interviews to.
Q: Prior to all of these interviews that I just mentioned, had you discussed the fact that you were giving these interviews, with Mr. Simpson?
MS. LEVINE: Objection. Calls for privileged information.
MR. KELLY: Okay.
Q: Prior to giving any of these interviews, did you obtain any sort of release or waiver from Mr. Simpson prior to giving these interviews?
MS. LEVINE: Can we have a minute?
MR. VAN SICKLEN: There is no waiver of the attorney-client privilege.
MR. KELLY: There is by the client, and if the client gave him a waiver release, then that certainly is applicable here.
MR. VAN SICKLEN: Well, whether he gave him a release for certain interviews, that may be one thing you are going to have to establish foundationally, but as of this moment in time there is no waiver of the attorney-client privilege.
MR. KELLY: What more can I do than lay a foundation than asking whether he gave it and asking whether his client gave him a waiver in terms of giving it?
MR. VAN SICKLEN: The problem with asking what his client did or didn't do may involve or invoke privileged communications.
MR. KELLY: I haven't asked for the substance of any of these things. I am asking if he received something to that effect that enabled him to speak, and it requires a simple yes or no. I'm not asking for any of the substance of it.
Could you read the question back again, please, David.
(Pending question read as follows:
"Q: Prior to giving any of these interviews, did you obtain any sort of release or waiver from Mr. Simpson prior to giving these interviews?")
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. After any of these interviews that we've been discussing here, did Mr. Simpson or anybody representing Mr. Simpson notify you that you were not authorized to give any further interviews? Just yes or no.
A: No.
Q: And in all those interviews that we mentioned, including the ones to the police, were you as honest and accurate as you could have possibly been at the time?
MS. LEVINE: Objection. That will call for the for privileged information. I will instruct him not to answer.
MR. KELLY: Why is that? I am just asking on his own opinion. It has nothing to do with any communication.
MS. LEVINE: Because what he would do if he answered that, if he said yes, he would be saying that all those things are true or they aren't true, and he would be reasserting the truth of them and thereby incorporating into this deposition information that may or may not be privileged in those statements.
MR. KELLY: So after reviewing the interviews, he is not prepared to testify that all the previous interviews he has given relating to his client are truthful or not?
MS. LEVINE: It has nothing to do with whether he is prepared to do it. It has to do with whether or not the information that he would be giving is privileged or not. It's not Mr. Kardashian's choice. It's a matter that he is obligated as counsel, as a lawyer, as somebody who has taken the oath as a lawyer, to assert privilege in a deposition testimony if his answering the question could reveal communications between him and his client, however broadly communications are interpreted under California law.
MR. PETROCELLI: I don't want to argue on the record, but I just don't want my acquiescence to be deemed or my silence to be deemed an acquiescence in your position. I don't believe your position has any merit at all. I think that your view of the attorney-client privilege is all wrong. It's not supported by California law.
This was a question that simply asked whether statements that this witness has given to third parties, including the world, are true and accurate or whether he lied deliberately or whether he knows that the information is false. That can't conceivably be privileged
MS. LEVINE: You know
MR. PETROCELLI: and if it were privileged, it's been waived.
MS. LEVINE: I don't want to argue either.
MR. PETROCELLI: I don't want to either, but I just want you to know
MS. LEVINE: But you've begun the argument, and I can't sit here quietly and let it go and be thought of acquiescing in your interpretation of the attorney client privilege.
MR. PETROCELLI: That's fine.
MS. LEVINE: And so I am not acquiescing in that. The attorney-client privilege in California requires one to keep clients' confidences inviolate. It cannot be waived by Mr. Kardashian or any actions that Mr. Kardashian takes.
Mr. Kardashian could stand at the top the highest building and shout whatever secrets he has from any client. They are not waived by doing that. He is obligated as a lawyer here to assert the privilege.
If you have a problem with that assertion, then I am sure we will deal with it at a later time. I don't think we need to get excited about it. I just think we need to go through it and make the record.
MR. PETROCELLI: Your position is untenable, but we will fight that out later on.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: In preparation of your sworn testimony today, Mr. Kardashian, have you spoken to Robert Baker at any time?
A: No.
Q: Other than in preparation today, have you had any conversations at all with Robert Baker?
A: Yes.
Q: And could you tell me the last time you spoke to Robert Baker?
A: Perhaps a month, month and a half ago.
Q: Okay. And other than that conversation a month or a month and a half ago, had you ever spoken to Mr. Baker on any other occasion?
A: Yes. Perhaps when he first got into the case.
Q: Okay. And do you recall what month and year that was?
A: No. No.
Q: Had you ever met Robert Baker prior to his getting into the case?
A: No.
Q: And when you say "getting into the case," we are referring to the civil case here?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Could you tell me what your discussion was with Robert Baker the first time you spoke to him?
MS. LEVINE: If I could have a moment. I don't know the answer to that question, and it's possible that it could call for privileged information, so I need to go off the record and talk to Mr. Kardashian for a moment.
MR. KELLY: Why don't you when you are off the record discuss both of the conversations that he had with Mr. Baker, and then we will...
MS. LEVINE: That makes sense. I will do that.
MR. KELLY: Okay.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 9:58.
(Discussion held between the witness and counsel outside the hearing of the reporter.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record now, and the time is approximately 10:02.
MR. KELLY: Can we ever the last question back, David?
(Pending question read as follows:
"Q. Could you tell me what your discussion was with Robert Baker the first time you spoke to him?")
MS. LEVINE: I would object on the grounds of attorney-client and attorney work product privilege. Instruct him not to answer.
MR. KELLY: Okay. By the way, Miss Levine, other than I think it's clear we have agreed to disagree
MS. LEVINE: Yes.
MR. KELLY: every time you assert the privilege, so my silence after you assert it is not an acceptance of it.
It's just that we will deal with it another time and place. Okay?
MS. LEVINE: So you save me from Mr. Petrocelli's wrath?
MR. KELLY: I cannot.
Q: Mr. Kardashian, you had indicated that you had a conversation with Mr. Baker approximately one month ago?
A: Yes.
Q: Could you relate to me the substance of that conversation?
A: Yes, I can. Mr. Baker appointed an attorney to or suggested an attorney to represent me in this proceeding.
Q: Was that Marshall Morgan?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: And you obviously didn't accept that offer?
A: That's correct. I had Miss Levine represented me or has been aware of this case and has helped me throughout, so I wanted Miss Levine with me.
Q: Did you have any discussions whatsoever with Marshall Morgan?
A: Yes, I did. I met Mr. Morgan for lunch.
Q: And was that the only time you spoke to him?
A: I spoke to him on the telephone another time.
Q: Did you have any other conversations with Mr. Baker after that?
A: I believe I spoke to him once more when I told him that again that I was going to use Miss Levine.
Q: Okay. Did you speak to It was your understanding that Mr. Morgan was at least shared offices with Mr. Baker?
A: I really didn't know the arrangement. All I know is he was in that building, but I had never been to the building, so I don't know.
Q: Did you know that they shared the same office space on the same floor of that building?
A: No, I do not.
Q: I'm sorry?
A: No, I do not.
Q: Okay. Did you speak to Phillip Baker at all at any time prior to your testimony here today?
A: One time I did, I believe. Or maybe twice.
Q: Okay. When was the last time you spoke to Phillip Baker?
A: Oh, I'd say it's been two or three months ago.
MR. KELLY: Do you want to
MS. LEVINE: No. Takes a long time to go off the record here.
MR. KELLY: Okay. Well, you know, if you stopped asserting the privilege, we wouldn't have to stop at all, Miss Levine, and then we could work right through this.
MS. LEVINE: Well, that's right. That would always be very easy if we had no rules of law, but we try and keep with them.
MR. KELLY: We could be very casual and get through this.
MS. LEVINE: Okay. Go ahead.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Do you recall the last time you spoke to Phillip Baker?
A: No. As I said, it's approximately three months ago.
Q: And could you tell me the substance of the conversation you had with Phillip Baker approximately three months ago?
A: I believe it was about Mr. Morgan getting
Q: Same thing about
A: About my testimony, yes.
Q: And I'm sorry what did you say about the testimony?
A: Just about that my deposition, and so Mr. Baker had indicated that Mr. Morgan would I should meet with him.
Q: Did you have any discussions in terms of financial arrangements when you spoke to Phillip Baker regarding Mr. Morgan?
A: No, I did not.
Q: Okay. When you spoke to Mr. Robert Baker, did you ever have any discussions with him regarding financial arrangements with Mr. Morgan?
A: I did not.
Q: Prior to the conversation you had with Phillip Baker three months ago, could you relate to me the substance of the conversation before that time you had with him?
A: That's privileged.
MS. LEVINE: Objection grounds of privilege.
MR. KELLY: Okay.
Q: Do you know who Dan Leonard is?
A: Yes.
Q: Have you had any conversations with him prior to today?
A: It was just one meeting, I think, when I met Mr. Leonard at one time, but it's been months.
Q: Okay. Where is this meeting where was this meeting held you're referring to?
A: This was at Mr. Simpson's.
Q: At the Rockingham
A: Yes.
Q: home? And could you tell me who was there other than Dan Leonard, if you recall? I assume Mr. Simpson was there, by the way.
A: Mr. Simpson was there. I don't know if you were there (Indicating).
MR. VAN SICKLEN: (Shakes head.)
MS. LEVINE: Pointing to Mr. Van Sicklen.
MR. KELLY: And let the record reflect he is shaking his head in a negative manner.
MR. VAN SICKLEN: I don't think I was there.
MR. KELLY: We will ask you that.
MR. VAN SICKLEN: Okay.
THE WITNESS: I don't know. I believe Mr. Baker was there, Mr. I'm not sure if Mr. Bob Baker or Phil Baker was there.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Other than yourself, Simpson, Leonard and at least one of the Bakers?
A: Yes.
Q: Could you tell me if anybody else was there at that meeting?
A: I don't believe so.
Q: Could you please tell me the substance of that meeting that you had?
MS. LEVINE: Object on privilege grounds.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Could you tell me how long that meeting was?
MS. LEVINE: Object on privilege grounds.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Was that the only time that you had seen or met Dan Leonard prior to today?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you know Bob Blasier?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Could you tell me the last time you spoke to him?
A: To the best of my recollection, perhaps three months ago.
Q: And do you recall, first of all, where you were when you spoke to Mr. Blasier?
A: It would have been at the Simpson residence.
Q: Was anybody present there at the Simpson residence other than yourself and Mr. Blasier?
A: I'm sure there were. I just don't know who. There's always people around there, so I just don't know the individuals.
Q: Was Mr. Simpson there at that time?
A: Yes.
Q: Could you relate to me the substance of the conversation you had with Mr. Blasier?
MS. LEVINE: Objection on privilege grounds.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Was Mr. Simpson present when you had the conversation with Mr. Blasier?
A: No, he was not.
Q: Did you First of all, it's your claim that you provided legal services for Mr. Simpson relative to the criminal charges against him in 1994. Is that correct?
A: I have represented Mr. Simpson since 1970.
Q: I am sorry. I was coughing. Since?
A: Since 1970 I've represented Mr. Simpson.
Q: Have you ever had any written retainer agreement with Mr. Simpson?
MS. LEVINE: Objection. That calls I believe retainer agreements under the state code may be privileged. I have to look that up.
MR. KELLY: I am not asking him for the substance of any retainer agreement. I am asking him simply whether he had one, yes or no.
MS. LEVINE: He can answer it yes or no. No substance.
THE WITNESS: No. No.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: So from 1970, as you sit here today, you never had a written retainer agreement with Mr. Simpson.
A: That's correct.
Q: Could you tell me if any time between 1970 and today you have ever submitted an invoice to Mr. Simpson for legal services provided?
A: To the best of my recollection, per services provided?
MS. LEVINE: Objection. Calls for privileged information.
MR. KELLY: Once again, Miss Levine, I am just asking for a yes or no answer. I am not asking for any of the contents involved in any invoice. I am just asking whether he has ever submitted one.
MS. LEVINE: Ever?
MR. KELLY: Ever.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Could you tell me the last time you submitted one to him?
MS. LEVINE: Objection. That will call for privileged information, the more detail you get into.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Could you tell me whether you ever submitted an invoice for professional services rendered in relation to his criminal trial in 1994-1995?
MS. LEVINE: Objection. Calls for privileged information.
MR. PETROCELLI: I believe these objections are meritless, Miss Levine. We have the right to probe foundationally whether there is a bona fide attorney-client relationship. His saying so doesn't make it so. It has to have all of the features of a real, genuine attorney-client relationship such as Mr. Kelly is inquiring: Whether there is a retainer agreement, whether there is any invoice, whether there is any payment. This is the information that minimally we are entitled to know so that we can go to the court and argue there was no real attorney-client relationship.
MS. LEVINE: Mr. Petrocelli, as I understand the attorney-client relationship, and I may not be as versed in it as you are, I'm sure, it has to do with whether the client believes that the lawyer is acting as a lawyer. That's what the state code says. That's what the Evidence Code says. It has to do with the client's perception. It has nothing to do with the existence of retainer agreements. I know you are shaking your head.
And in fact, as I understand the code, if somebody comes to visit with a lawyer, whether or not they eventually hire that lawyer, those communications in the first visit alone are privileged communications.
So if you have a problem believing that he is acting as a lawyer or not, then perhaps you should have been asking these questions to Mr. Simpson, because it's his perception that's important, but
MR. PETROCELLI: We did, and Mr. Simpson said Mr. Kardashian did not represent him for many, many years.
MS. LEVINE: Well
MR. PETROCELLI: So his testimony is contrary to Mr. Simpson's.
MS. LEVINE: But if you're questioning whether he has acted as a lawyer in this case, I think that it's quite clear he has acted as a lawyer for Mr. Simpson in connection with the criminal case. I don't think there was any question about that whatsoever.
MR. PETROCELLI: That's what Mr. Kelly is trying to find out.
MR. KELLY: There is no way, Miss Levine, to even find Mr. Simpson's perception, whether he perceived Mr. Kardashian as his attorney, without establishing at least a rudimentary foundation with regard to even if Mr. Simpson received an invoice from Mr. Kardashian. That might lend to his belief as to whether Mr. Kardashian was acting as his attorney or not.
MS. LEVINE: Well, I personally, from what I understand of lawyer-client relationships, don't think invoices are significant.
MR. KELLY: I am not don't get me wrong. I am not saying that that's a binding issue here, but I think at one time we might be before the court, and they are going to look at the totality of circumstances, and certainly if there was ever a retainer agreement or not, whether there had ever been invoices issued or not, whether there had ever been payment issued or not and whether there had been any sort of indication of legal services provided to Mr. Simpson would directly bear on whether Mr. Simpson viewed Mr. Kardashian as truly an attorney or just a confidant on a personal level, and we at least have the right to ask these questions and establish that foundation for what may come down the road.
MS. LEVINE: Well, I strongly disagree with you
MR. KELLY: Not unexpectedly.
MS. LEVINE: but if the question is only did he issue an invoice in relationship to the criminal case, I will allow him to answer that particular question, without getting into the specifics of the invoice.
MR. KELLY: That's all I had asked from the start.
MS. LEVINE: Okay. Go ahead.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Could you tell me how many?
A: No, but I was it was every it would be monthly, every month, for maybe a year, maybe I can't tell you how long.
Q: Prior to June of 1994, could you tell me just the month and year you had last issued an invoice to Mr. Simpson for legal services provided?
A: No, I couldn't.
Q: Could you tell me if at any time prior to June 1994 you had ever issued an invoice to Mr. Simpson for legal services provided?
A: I'm sure I did. but I can't recall. It would have been prior to 1985, I would imagine.
Q: Okay. Mr. Kardashian, did you ever become aware of a New Year's Day, 1989 incident involving Nicole Brown Simpson and O.J. Simpson?
MS. LEVINE: And if I might have a moment, I am going to try and I want to let you know, he is going to testify to this, extracting what he learned in the course of his representation of Mr. Simpson beginning in June of '94. So what he learned before that from what he learned after that. I think that makes sense in terms of privilege.
MR. KELLY: He is going to do that himself during his testimony?
MS. LEVINE: In his mind. So he is going to tell you what he knew about that prior to June of '94.
MR. KELLY: Okay.
MS. LEVINE: Okay?
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Why don't you tell me what you knew prior to June of 1994 of that incident.
A: The only thing I knew was when I read about it in the newspaper.
Q: Okay. Did you know that subsequent to that New Year's Day, '89, that Mr. Simpson had been charged with spousal battery?
A: I really wasn't around him very much at that time, so whatever knowledge I gained, it was either from television or from the newspaper.
Q: My question to you is: Either watching the TV or reading the newspapers, did you become aware of the fact prior to June of 1994 that Mr. Simpson had been charged with spousal abuse?
A: I'm sorry. Yes, I did.
Q: Okay. And in reading the newspapers and/or watching TV prior to June 1994, did you become aware that Mr. Simpson had pleaded no contest to spousal abuse?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Did you ever provide any legal services to Mr. Simpson relative to that incident at all?
A: No, I did not.
Q: Okay. Did you in any way assist Mr. Simpson in securing legal counsel relative to that incident of New Year's Day, 1989?
A: No, I did not.
Q: Okay. Do you know who Mr. Simpson's legal counsel was with regard to that New Year's Day incident, 1989?
A: Yes, I do.
Q: And who was that?
A: Howard Weitzman.
Q: And how long had you known Howard Weitzman for prior to that?
A: 45 years.
Q: Long time.
A: I'm an old man.
Q: Okay.
MR. PETROCELLI: Prior to what?
MR. KELLY: Prior to
THE WITNESS: Oh, prior to that? 40 years. Sorry.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: You're making yourself too old now.
A: Too old.
Q: And by the way, Howard Weitzman, was he present at Rockingham when you had arrived there on June 13th, 1994?
A: No, he was not.
Q: Did he arrive there after you had arrived at Rockingham on June 12, 1994?
A: Yes.
MS. LEVINE: Excuse me. June 12, 1994?
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: June 13th. I'm sorry.
A: Yes.
Q: And in fact...okay. The record is clear. Who is Cathy Randa?
A: O.J. Simpson's assistant.
Q: And how long have you known her for?
A: I've known Cathy probably 20 years, maybe a little more.
Q: And when did you or under what circumstances did you first become acquainted with Cathy Randa?
A: Cathy used to be my legal assistant.
Q: And how long was she your legal assistant for?
A: I can't tell you for sure, but it was probably two or three years, something like that. And I could be off. I really don't don't know.
Q: And do you know what first of all, just generally, what were Miss Randa's duties and responsibilities when she was working with you?
A: She was a legal secretary for me.
Q: And do you know what she is doing now, Cathy Randa?
A: As far as I know, she's still Mr. Simpson's assistant.
Q: Do you know how she came to be Mr. Simpson's assistant?
A: Yes.
Q: And how was that?
A: I used Mr. Simpson used to have office space in my law offices, and it I can't remember if I volunteered Cathy used to do some work for Mr. Simpson while she was doing work for me, and I can't remember if I volunteered her services to him or whether he asked me if he could have her full time, whatever, but it just evolved where she became his assistant, and I hired another one.
Q: Do you know how long she has worked for Mr. Simpson?
A: No, but I would estimate it to be about 15 to 17 years, I would imagine.
Q: Do you know generally what her duties and responsibilities are in with working for Mr. Simpson?
A: I know she is his his assistant that and does administrative things for him, reservations and whatever. I don't know all that she does.
Q: Have you ever done any scheduling with Mr. Simpson through Cathy Randa?
MS. LEVINE: Do you understand?
THE WITNESS: I really don't understand that. I'm sorry.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. So you're taking me at my word to rephrase a question?
A: Please.
Q: Is it your understanding that Cathy Randa handles most of Mr. Simpson's scheduling
Q: And is it your understanding that she handles a lot of his personal administrative-type matters also?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: And is it your understanding that she attends to a number of his daily needs, such as scheduling children's events and things like that and keeping him up-to-date on those things?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: And is it your understanding that she also schedules appearances and outings and things like that for Mr. Simpson?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: And would it be fair to say that she's very well acquainted with at least most of Mr. Simpson's business associates?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: And would it be fair to say that she is also at least somewhat acquainted with Mr. most of Mr. Simpson's social acquaintances also?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Okay. When was the last time you spoke to Cathy Randa?
A: Maybe a couple months ago.
Q: Do you recall the substance of that conversation?
A: No. It was it was just general: What are you doing and that type of thing.
Q: Do you know Wayne Hughes?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: How long have you known Mr. Hughes for?
A: I've known Mr. Hughes maybe 15, 20 years, something like that.
Q: And did you originally meet his acquaintance as a result of some USC- type connection?
A: Through Mr. Simpson is how I met Mr. Hughes.
Q: And have you retained a relationship with Mr. Hughes through all these years?
A: No, I do not have a relationship with Mr. Hughes.
Q: Could you tell me the last time you spoke to Mr. Hughes?
A: Yes. The last time I spoke to Mr. Hughes was at the when I gave my Grand Jury testimony.
Q: Okay. Was he present there that day also?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Do you recall what you spoke to him about that day?
A: Yes.
Q: And could you relate that conversation to me?
A: Yes. I don't know if it's well, I was upset at his misrepresentation in his transcript to the Grand Jury, in his statements to the Grand Jury that dealt with me.
Q: Had you had the opportunity to read Mr. Hughes' Grand Jury testimony at that time, obviously?
A: Yes.
Q: And could you relate to me what part of Mr. Hughes' Grand Jury testimony you felt was inaccurate as it related to you?
MS. LEVINE: If I might have a moment. Can we go off the record for a minute?
MR. KELLY: Sure.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 10:25.
(Discussion held between the witness and counsel outside the hearing of the reporter.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record now, and the time is approximately 10:29.
MR. KELLY: Could we try that again?
(Pending question read as follows:
Q: And could you relate to me what part of Mr. Hughes' Grand Jury testimony you felt was inaccurate as it related to you?")
THE WITNESS: Let me correct what I just said. It wasn't Mr. Hughes' Grand Jury testimony. I had not seen that, and I don't know if he testified in front of the Grand Jury. It was a statement he gave to the police that Miss Levine showed me and that I took offense to when Mr. Hughes in that statement was, and I can't remember the substance of it, but it was basically
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Could you speak up a little, Mr. Kardashian? It's hard to hear.
A: Sure. It was basically that I wasn't worth what they were paying me; that they were paying me $3,000 a day for legal services and I wasn't worth that, and he communicated that to the District Attorney's Office, and I was upset that he would make that type of a statement.
Q: Could you tell me what you said to Mr. Hughes relative to that statement?
A: Well, it was basically, "Why would you make that type of a statement? You know that's not true, and why would you make that kind of a statement?"
Q: What part of it wasn't true: That you weren't worth the $3,000 a day?
A: That I was no, I knew I was worth that he would represent that I was so cheap.
MS. LEVINE: That was a joke.
THE WITNESS: No. That he would quote numbers and represent things that just were not true as far as what I was getting paid. Mr. Hughes had no idea.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Prior to that conversation with Mr. Hughes, could you tell me when you had last spoken to him.
A: No. I don't really speak that much to Mr. Hughes.
Q: Did you speak to him at any time between June 13, 1994 and the conversation you had this day outside the Grand Jury room?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you recall, first of all, where you had this conversation?
A: Yes.
Q: Where was it?
A: In Mr. Shapiro's office.
Q: Could you tell me what day that was on?
A: No, I could not.
Q: Could you tell me who was present there besides yourself and Mr. Hughes?
MS. LEVINE: This I believe could call for privileged information, not necessarily who was present We are talking about a conversation with Mr. Shapiro's office?
MR. KELLY: I haven't gotten to the conversation yet. I've just been asking some other questions.
MS. LEVINE: Okay.
MR. KELLY: I suspect I will be getting to that, though.
THE WITNESS: Sure. There were several people, and I'm trying to think who was all there: There was Mr. Allen Austin, there was Hoss, and I don't know his last name.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: H o s s, like
MR. PETROCELLI: Hoskins?
THE WITNESS: Hoskins? Okay. There was Joe Kolkowitz, there was Marcus Allen, and I can't remember if his wife was with him or not.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Kathy?
A: Katherine. Yeah, I don't know if she was there. She could have been. There was Skip Taft; there was Vince Evans; there were other defense counsel there, and I can't recall who all was there, and that's all I can recall at this time.
Q: Do you recall what day this meeting was on?
A: No, I don't know.
Q: Could you tell me what month it was?
A: No. I could guess, but I don't I really don't know the month. It would have either been June or July of '94.
Q: Was it prior to the preliminary hearing on this matter?
A: I believe so. No. Excuse me. The prelim no. It was pretty fast. I don't know the dates. I'm sorry. I really don't know if it was prior to or subsequent to the prelim.
Q: By the way, did you sit at counsel table during the preliminary hearing?
A: No. My it was my choice not to. Mr. Shapiro asked me to, but I declined.
Q: Do you recall who was sitting at counsel table with Mr. Shapiro during the preliminary hearing?
A: I believe it was Mr. Uelman and Miss Kaplan and sometimes Miss Filipi.
Q: Did you attend the preliminary hearing?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: The entire preliminary hearing?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Could you tell me why you chose not to sit at counsel table?
MR. VAN SICKLEN: You know, I don't think it may have to do with strategy and, if so, it's part of the attorney-client relationship, so I am going to object to the question and assert the privilege on behalf of Mr. Simpson.
MS. LEVINE: I am going to join in that objection. It's either completely irrelevant or it has to do with the strategy, and it's work product.
MR. KELLY: Well, if we are here to one of the main issues is whether he was providing legal services to Mr. Simpson, and there was a decision made by him not to sit at counsel table at the first legal proceeding involving Mr. Simpson on this case. I think we are entitled to know
MS. LEVINE: You know
MR. KELLY: what was the root of that decision and whether Mr. Simpson had anything to do with that decision.
MS. LEVINE: You know, if you want to challenge whether he was counsel for Mr. Simpson, that's fine but, as we all know, there are lawyers that don't sit at the counsel table. I am sure Mr. Petrocelli has more lawyers on this case than just him, and they are not all here; I am sure that Mr. Van Sicklen has the same thing, and the decision
MR. KELLY: So what?
MS. LEVINE: that goes into doing that is not something that is able to be gone into by adversaries or anybody else. That's the lawyers' thought process. That's what's going on in their mind.
If you don't think there was an attorney-client relationship, then let's go to court and deal with it, but it's not for me to establish for you; it's not something for you to decide. That's something that's decided by judges in camera. The communications between Mr. Simpson and Mr. Kardashian and their thought processes is not something you are allowed to delve into, with all due respect.
MR. KELLY: I think we are allowed to delve into it to try to establish the foundation or lack of foundation.
Q: Let me try this question now: Did Mr. Simpson play any role in the decision of you not to sit at counsel table during the preliminary hearing?
MS. LEVINE: Object and assert the privilege. Attorney-client and attorney work product.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Who is Skip Taft?
A: Mr. Taft is Mr. Simpson's business attorney.
Q: Okay. And how long have you known Mr. Taft for?
A: I would say approximately 20 years, maybe a little more.
Q: Okay. Do you have a social relationship with Mr. Taft?
A: No.
Q: Do you have a business relationship with Mr. Taft?
A: No.
Q: Do you know him in any capacity other than the business attorney for Mr. Simpson?
A: No, I do not.
Q: Okay. Could you tell me the last time you spoke to Mr. Taft?
A: Approximately one week ago.
Q: And could you relate to me the substance of that conversation?
MS. LEVINE: I'd object and assert the privilege.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Prior to that conversation approximately a week ago, could you tell me when you had spoken to him, if at all, prior to a week ago?
A: It would have probably been about 30 days prior to that.
Q: And could you tell me the substance of that conversation?
MS. LEVINE: I'd again object and assert the privilege.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Prior to that conversation approximately 30 days ago, do you recall when you spoke to him, if at all, prior to that also?
A: Probably a week prior to that.
Q: Okay. Could you tell me the substance of that conversation?
MS. LEVINE: And I would again object and assert the privilege.
MR. KELLY: Okay. Is it your position, Miss Levine, that any conversations Mr. Kardashian has had with Mr. Taft, that he will be asserting the privilege?
MS. LEVINE: I think so. Since he knows him only as O.J. Simpson's business lawyer and has no other relationship with him, it seems clear that that's the only relationship the only thing they would be discussing.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Could you tell me approximately how many times you have spoken to Mr. Taft since October 3rd 1994?
A: Quite a bit.
MR. PETROCELLI: '95.
MR. KELLY: '95.
THE WITNESS: Quite a bit. I maybe 25 times.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: And prior to Strike that. Between June 13th, 1994 and October 3rd, 1995, could you tell me approximately how many times you had spoken to Mr. Taft?
A: I could not, no.
Q: Numerous?
A: Numerous, yes.
Q: Prior to June 13th, 1994,could you approximate for me how often you would ever speak to Mr. Taft?
A: Maybe three or four times a year.
Q: And that's since the time you first met him?
A: Oh, there would be periods where I may speak to him more frequently, but I would say over the last I'm just going back maybe five, seven years, you know, four or five times a year.
Q: Did you ever have any conversations with Mr. Taft where there were any people other than attorneys present?
MS. LEVINE: And excluding Mr. Simpson?
MR. KELLY: Yeah, excluding Mr. Simpson.
THE WITNESS: I'm sure. I'm sure I have.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Do you recall Let me just have one minute.
(Pause in the deposition.)
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Mr. Kardashian, going back to the meeting you had mentioned earlier in Mr. Shapiro's office?
A: Yes.
Q: Was did you indicate that Skip Taft was present there at that time?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: Okay. Could you relate to me the substance of that particular meeting?
MS. LEVINE: Objection. That calls for privileged information.
MR. KELLY: Is it your position, Miss Levine, that even conversations Mr. Kardashian had with other attorneys with non-attorneys present is privileged?
MS. LEVINE: Not always, but it's my understanding that was in Mr. Shapiro's office, and I believe that it calls that there were things going on related there related to the representation of Mr. Simpson. Information was being gathered and things like that.
MR. KELLY: That's your understanding?
MS. LEVINE: That's my understanding.
MR. KELLY: Is that based on a conversation with your client?
MS. LEVINE: I don't have to tell you where I have my understanding. That's my understanding.
MR. KELLY: Okay. And you refuse to answer anything regarding the substance of those conversations with non-attorneys present also?
MS. LEVINE: Yes, at that particular conversation at that particular time, yes.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Could you tell me specifically First of all, did you speak to Marcus Allen at all that particular day at Mr. Shapiro's office?
MS. LEVINE: Can I have a moment, please?
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 10:42.
(Discussion held between the witness and counsel outside the hearing of the reporter.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record now, and the time is approximately 10:44.
MR. KELLY: Could we have the last question read back, David?
(Pending question read as follows:
"Q: Could you tell me specifically First of all, did you speak to Marcus Allen at all that particular day at Mr. Shapiro's office?")
MS. LEVINE: I am going to assert the privilege, attorney work product privilege, to that conversation.
MR. KELLY: Would you be asserting that same privilege if I ask him about any conversations with any lay people in the office that day?
MS. LEVINE: In that in Mr. Shapiro's office in the course of that meeting, yes.
MR. KELLY: Okay.
Q: Mr. Kardashian, could you tell me the last time you spoke to Marcus Allen?
A: Yes.
Q: And when was the last time you spoke to him?
A: It would have been that meeting, whenever it was, in June or July of 1994.
Q: Prior to that meeting, could you tell me when you had spoke to him previously at all?
A: Yes.
Q: When was that?
A: June 13th, 1994.
Q: And did you call him, or did he call you?
MS. LEVINE: Assumes facts not in evidence.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Assuming it was First of all, under what circumstances did you speak to Mr. Allen?
A: He called Mr. Simpson's office, and I answered the phone.
Q: Do you recall what time of day that was?
A: Approximately 2:00 or 3:00 o'clock in the afternoon.
Q: And could you relate the substance of that conversation to me?
A: It was one of Mr. Allen was in the in some golf tournament in the Bahamas or Grand Caymens or somewhere out of the country, and he called to express his concern about what happened and to inquire as to what was going on. Q: And could you tell me what you said to him?
A: I knew nothing at that moment, and I just said how sad I was about the loss of Nicole, and it was really just commiserating over the death of Nicole.
Q: When you say you knew I'm sorry. Did you say you knew nothing at that time?
A: That's correct.
Q: You had been over to Rockingham the morning of June 13th, had you not?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Had you spoken to any police officers there?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Had you been there when Cathy Randa arrived there with Mr. Simpson?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Had you been there when Skip Taft arrived with Mr. Simpson?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you see Mr. Simpson at that time?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you see any little cards in the driveway marking evidence when you had been there at that time?
A: No, sir.
Q: Do you recall any of the conversations you had with the police officers at that time?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Do you recall who, if anybody, you spoke to at that time?
A: No.
Q: Could you describe the person to me?
A: Yes.
Q: And what did that person look like?
A: It was a tall African-American policeman about 6 foot 6, about 220. He was guarding the Rockingham gate.
Q: And as approached the Rockingham gate, it's your testimony you saw no evidence markers in the driveway at that time?
A: I don't recall seeing anything like that.
Q: Could you tell me what you said to this officer as you approached him?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: And what was that?
A: I said, "I have Mr. Simpson's luggage, and you should take it in." And he said, "No, you can't come in. " And I said That's funny?
MR. VAN SICKLEN: Yeah, I don't think it's very professional.
MR. PETROCELLI: I am not laughing at you, Mr. Kardashian.
THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.
MR. PETROCELLI: I am laughing at something Mr. Brewer and I are reading, and I apologize for the distraction.
THE WITNESS: Okay. Thank you.
MR. PETROCELLI: Nothing to do with your testimony.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
And he refused to let me in, and I said, "But it's his luggage. What should I do with it?" He says, "You can't come in."
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Mr. Kardashian, you had how long had you been at Rockingham prior to Mr. Simpson's arrival?
A: I believe about 15 minutes.
Q: That's all?
A: I believe so. Let me say this, though
Q: Well, what I am okay Say what you want to say.
A: All I'm going to say is that whole day, as you can imagine, the whole week was very sketchy in my mind. I could have been there a half hour; I don't know, but my recollection is it was only about 15, 20 minutes.
Q: Okay. Excuse me. Other than this one conversation you had with Marcus Allen on the 13th, do you recall any other conversations you had with him between June 13th and the day you saw him in Mr. Shapiro's office?
A: No, I do not.
Q: Subsequent to that meeting in Mr. Shapiro's office, do you recall any other conversations you had with Marcus Allen after that time?
A: I don't believe I've spoken to him since that meeting.
Q: Do you know who Larry Schiller is?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: And who is that?
A: He's a journalist. He's a journalist and a director and a writer, as far as I know.
Q: And how long have you known him for?
A: I've known Mr. Schiller about 10 years plus, right in there somewhere.
Q: And you know his wife also or I should say his ex-wife?
A: Yes.
Q: Stephanie?
A: Yes.
Q: Were they married when you first met them?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: When was the last time you spoke to Lawrence Schiller?
MS. LEVINE: Objection. It's irrelevant. It's got nothing to do with this case, unless you can tie it into something having to do with this. He talked to Mr. Schiller about something down the line
MR. KELLY: First of all, Miss Levine, I don't think it's appropriate for you to be objecting on grounds of relevancy. It's one thing for you to instruct your client not to answer a particular question and assert a different a particular privilege, but I don't think the relevancy objection has any place here right now.
We are involved in the discovery process, and this is someone who he has had dealings with and conversations with, and it certainly has nothing to do with his role as an attorney, and I think we are certainly allowed to probe this area.
MS. LEVINE: But he has some interests that are private as well, as I am sure you understand. Some things just because he may have been involved as a lawyer for somebody doesn't mean his whole life, anything that may have happened at some point before or after this, is something you can probe into.
If you want to ask him about his relationship with Mr. Schiller and Mr. Simpson, that's fine, but I want to make sure that we are not going I mean, you are asking about whether he ever met Mr. Schiller's wife 10 years earlier. I am not sure what that has to do with anything.
MR. KELLY: They are more foundational. I want to find out first when he met him, and then we will get a little more specific and see where we're going with it.
MS. I EVINE: Okay. I would appreciate it if you would keep it at the case at issue, though.
MR. KELLY: Sure.
THE WITNESS: Let's step outside, please.
MR.VAN SICKLEN: Let's take a short break.
MR. KELLY: Okay.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 10:51.
(Discussion held between the witness and counsel outside the hearing of the reporter.)
(Recess.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record now, and the time is approximately 10:59.
MR. KELLY: Could you read the last question back, Dave?
(Pending question read as follows:
"Q. When was the last time you spoke to Lawrence Schiller?")
MS. LEVINE: You know, his relationship with Mr. Schiller is multi-fold. If you want to ask something specifically related to this litigation, we have no objection to that, but his relationship with Mr. Schiller is personal and business and attorney-client, and that broad a question, asking him about things that may have happened that have nothing to do with this, I can't permit him to answer.
MR. KELLY: Can he answer the question, the last time he spoke to Mr. Schiller?
MS. LEVINE: He can answer the last time he spoke to Mr. Schiller, but he will not answer the substance of the question.
THE WITNESS: Yesterday.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Have you ever had any conversations with Mr. Schiller regarding your writing a book?
A: I have had conversations, yes.
Q: Could you tell me the last time you spoke to Mr. Schiller about writing a book?
MS. LEVINE: You know, that's private. That's got nothing to do with whether or not he has percipient information that you want in this case.
If you want to ask him what he did, what he saw that's not privileged, that's fine, but anything that has to do with things that may be happening now, I don't think you have any interest or business getting into, and he has a California constitutional privacy right.
MR. KELLY: I understand he has a constitutional privacy right. I understand he has all kinds of rights. The question is whether any of those rights are applicable when particular questions are asked, and if this gentleman is here testifying under oath and at the same time contemplating some sort of a commercial enterprise relative to his knowledge or involvement with the subject matter of this case, we are certainly entitled to probe that because one could certainly influence the other.
I don't think we'd have a great deal of difficulty indicating that some sort of prejudice or bias might be gleaned from financial gain in some sort of contemplated contract at this point.
MR.VAN SICKLEN: Well, we will stipulate to that, and why can't we ask about those things?
MR. KELLY: You were the ones that first refused to answer about those things with Mr. Simpson.
MR. VAN SICKLEN: And you gave us an absolute contrary argument to the one you just made.
MR. KELLY: Today is a new day, Steve.
MS. LEVINE: You know, I always believed in the very old legal proverb that's what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander
MR. PETROCELLI: Well, I
MS. LEVINE: but I'm not involved in any of your prior discussions; I have nothing to do with them; we want nothing to do with them; we just want to get done with this, but at some point people have their lives that have private interests in them, and we are not going to answer that question today.
MR. KELLY: Okay. And as I reiterated before, my not following up on that is no acceptance of your position.
MS. LEVINE: Of course.
MR. KELLY: It's just that we will deal with it later.
MS. LEVINE: That's fine. It doesn't do us any good to argue. We can't make the decisions, anyway. Right?
MR. KELLY: We can just give them food for thought.
MS. LEVINE: No one listens to us, anyway.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did you graduate from USC, Mr. Kardashian?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: And then you went to, I believe, the University of San Diego Law School?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: And after leaving the University of San Diego Law School, could you tell me what type of work you did first?
A: I started practicing law, doing corporate, business and entertainment law.
Q: And what type of entity were you involved in when you were providing those services?
A: With a partnership.
Q: Okay. What was the name of that partnership?
A: I was not a partner in the beginning, but I joined a law firm called Eamer & Bedrosian, E-a-m-e-r. Bedrosian, B-e-d-r-o-s-i-a-n.
MR. PETROCELLI: I am having trouble hearing you, sir.
THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. I'll speak up. Eamer, E-a-m-e-r.
MR. PETROCELLI: E-a-m-e-r.
THE WITNESS: Right.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: What's Mr. Eamer's first name, by the way?
A: Richard. Richard Eamer and John Bedrosian.
Q: And did there come a time that you became a named partner with those two gentlemen?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: How long had you been there for until becoming that?
A: I don't know. To the best of my recollection, maybe two years, maybe three years.
Q: And after those two or three years. how many years were you associated with them in a partnership relationship?
A: Oh, I would to the best of my knowledge, probably another five years maybe.
Q: And during So it's a total of, say, seven or eight years?
A: Seven or eight years, yes.
Q: And while you were practicing law with those individuals, was your main concentration corporate and entertainment law?
A: Yes, mostly mostly the corporate side, yes.
Q: In those seven or eight years did you ever represent any individual on a criminal matter?
A: Yes. I believe I represented, and I can't recall even recall their names, but several people on some criminal matters, yes.
Q: Do you recall just the general nature of the criminal charges?
A: It would have been drunk driving cases, I believe.
Q: Okay. Other than I think out here they're DUI cases is that what they're called?
A: Yes.
Q: Other than DUI cases, did you handle any other matters of a criminal nature while you were practicing law
A: No, I did not.
Q: in that period?
A: No, I did not.
Q: Could we have the approximate years?
A: I couldn't tell you.
MS. LEVINE: The years of the DUIs or the years he was with the firm?
MR. BREWER: The firm.
MR. KELLY: The years he was with the firm.
THE WITNESS: Oh, I'm sorry. It would have been from 1970 to '77, '78, '79, right in there.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: And did there come a time that you left this relationship with these other attorneys?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: And it was '78 or '79?
A: Yes.
Q: And what was the reason for leaving the situation you were in?
A: I had started several businesses, and I left to pursue those businesses.
Q: And could you tell me what those businesses were?
A: Sure. In 1973 I started a company called Radio & Records.
Q: Is that a publication?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Okay. And you were the founder of that?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Did you have any partners in that business?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: And was one of them your brother?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Okay. And you had one other partner also?
A: Yes. sir.
Q: And who was that?
A: His name is Robert Wilson.
Q: Could you tell me what other business interests you had going at that time?
A: Yes. I started a we opened a JAG store. JAG was a clothing company, J-A-G.
Q: When you say "we," who are you speaking of?
MS. LEVINE: I am going to intervene for one minute. I am going to let him answer, but to the extent that you are going to go through all of his history from 1970 to 1994, because that's what it looks like, that's fine. I think he has a privacy objection. I have no but without waiving that, if you want to ask the questions
MR. KELLY: I am keeping them fairly general right now and
MS. LEVINE: Basically, I clearly think that you can delve into his legal practice without going into the clients, but besides that, without waiving any objection, if it's not considered any waiver, you can go ahead and ask them.
MR. KELLY: Okay. Well, all I'll be doing is asking in general terms basically what he has been doing up to June 1994 without and I am not going to be looking for great detail on the various undertakings.
Q: I am sorry. Did you finish speaking about
MS. LEVINE: JAG.
MR. KELLY: JAG. Okay.
Q: Who were your partners in that undertaking?
A: An individual named Joe Leach and O.J. Simpson.
Q: Simpson was one of your
A: Yes.
Q: partners?
A: Yes.
Q: Was he an investor?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Was he an active participant in the undertaking?
A: Not in the day-to-day, but he would be active when he was in town as far as doing some publicity, doing some marketing assistance, that type of thing.
Q: Any other enterprises
A: Yes.
Q: prior to, say, 1980?
A: Sure. Prior to 1980?
Q: Yeah.
Q: Yeah, there was a company called Joy, Joy, which was a yogurt company which we started.
Q: Once again, when you say "we," who are we speaking of? Was your brother involved in that?
A: No. I think it was Mr. Leach again, and I can't recall if Mr. Simpson was in that. I believe he was, but I can't yeah, I think he was. I think it was the three of us.
Q: Okay. Anything else prior to, say, '80?
A: Yeah, I'm sure there were, but I can't remember them.
Q: Were you a principal of National Medical Enterprises?
A: No, I was not.
Q: Were you a stockholder?
A: At one point, yes.
Q: And there came a time you sold your interest in that company?
A: Yes.
Q: Was that before it went public?
A: No. My interest in National Medical was just as a shareholder on the open market. We were their corporate counsel, and we my partners founded National Medical Enterprises.
Q: Subsequent to, say, 19- Oh, when you say your "partners" in National Medical, are you talking about your law partners?
A: I'm sorry. My law partners, Dick Eamer and John Bedrosian, were the founders of National Medical Enterprises, along with Leonard Cohen.
Q: And, say, going into the early '80s, what type of work were you doing at that time?
A: I was under I was under an employment agreement with Radio & Records, so I was now employed at R & R, and we started getting into
Q: I'm sorry. With your employment contract, was that a result of your selling Radio & Records?
A: Yes, sir. I sold that in 1979.
Q: And as part of that sellout, you were signed up to a multi-year what? A consulting contract?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. All right. I am sorry to interrupt. What else?
A: Somewhere in the early '80s I started a company called Concert Cinema, and my partners were Mr. Wilson and Mr. Simpson.
Q: Okay. Is that a predecessor to Movie Tunes?
A: No, it is not.
Q: Okay. Going back to what is it called? Cinema?
A: Concert Cinema.
Q: Concert Cinema.
A: Subsequent to Concert Cinema, what did I do. I believe after that I went to MCA.
Q: And there was MCA Radio Network?
A: That's when I started MCA Radio Network, that's correct.
Q: Were you president of that?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: How long were you there for?
A: Three years.
Q: What year would that have been then that you left as president of MCA Radio Network?
A: It was either '89 or '90.
Q: Between 1980 and 1990, had you provided any legal services for any client?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Okay. And more than one client?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: More than three clients?
A: Yes, but not too many more.
Q: Maybe five?
A: Maybe five.
Q: Could you tell me who those just in general terms, who the clients were, and I am not I going into the
MS. LEVINE: Not their names? If you want to ask if one of them was Simpson or someone related to this case, that's fine, but I hate to bring people into this case that may have had nothing whatsoever to do with it.
MR. KELLY: Okay. Let me
Q: Being cognizant of that, were any of these corporate clients?
A: Yes.
Q: Was more than one of them a corporate client?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Out of the five or six clients, how many of those were corporate clients?
A: Maybe three or four, right in there.
Q: Okay. And could you tell me how many individual clients you maintained through that time period?
A: Perhaps the same number: About three or four.
Q: Was one of those Mr. Simpson?
A: No.
Q: So between 1980 and 1990 you provided no legal representation
A: No, that's not correct. I'm sorry. There was legal representation of Mr. Simpson I would say for the early '80s, but the after perhaps '85 or '86 I don't believe there was.
Q: Okay. After 1985 or '86, could you tell me the next time you provided legal representation to Mr. Simpson?
A: I just need a clarification as to what's legal representation. Is it advice? Is it appearing on a matter? Is it you just have to clarify that for me.
Q: Well, first of all, I will try to be specific: Between 1985 and June 12th, 1994, did you make any appearances in court for Mr. Simpson?
A: No, I never did.
Q: Between 1985 and 19- June 1994, did you ever file any legal papers for Mr. Simpson?
A: No, sir.
Q: Between 1985 and 1994 did you ever submit any written legal memorandum to Mr. Simpson?
A: Yes, I believe so. I don't know the dates, but I believe I did.
Q: Do you know what year that would have been in?
A: No. Again, it probably would have been the mid '80s.
Q: What I am talking about is beyond the mid '80s.
A: I'm sorry.
Q: The last time you did something.
A: I'm sorry. I don't believe so.
Q: So between the mid '80s and June 1994, you did not submit any legal memorandum to Mr. Simpson?
A: Correct.
Q: In that time same time period, between the mid 1980s and June 1994, did you prepare any contracts for Mr. Simpson for any reason?
A: I could have during that period. I don't recall, but I could have.
Q: Okay. Other than what you might have, would it have been more than once?
A: If at all, it would have been two or three times.
Q: And would you be able to recall the general nature of those contracts you may have prepared?
A: Sure. It would have been relating to the companies that we were involved in at that time.
Q: So would it be fair to say that it was sort of a mixture of business and legal-type work you did with Mr. Simpson?
A: Yes.
Q: When did you first meet Mr. Simpson?
A: 1970.
Q: Okay. And under what circumstances?
A: I met him on a tennis court.
Q: And was that at your house?
A: No, sir. It was at a friend of mine's friend of all of ours, basically.
Q: And who was that friend?
A: His name was Harry Rothschild.
Q: After that first meeting of Mr. Simpson, did you develop a relationship with him?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: You became close friends to him?
A: Yes.
Q: And did you see him and socialize with him in addition to providing or having business interests with him in from the early '70s onward?
A: Yes.
Q: And would it be fair to say that you to know his personality fairly well?
A: I would say very well.
Q: Would it be fair to say that you got to know his character very well
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Would you be able to, as you sit here today Actually, strike that. Would you be able to describe Mr. Simpson's basic personality as you knew it prior to June of 1994?
MS. LEVINE: In lay terms?
MR. KELLY: Yeah, lay terms, just very general.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Would your please do that for me?
A: Very personable and very outgoing. I think that's the best I can describe it.
Q: And as of June 1994, would you be able to describe his basic character as you knew it, in general terms?
MS. LEVINE: From whenever he met him to June of '94?
MR. KELLY: To June of 1994.
THE WITNESS: Yes. His character in which way?
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Integrity.
A: Again, I'm looking I'm separating, one business and one because we did business together and then we would socialize together.
Q: Okay. Well, I'm not asking you to separate the two, but if you want to, go ahead and tell me the two.
A: Okay. His integrity in business was above reproach, in business.
Q: Okay.
A: It was excellent.
Q: Okay.
A: On a social basis, his integrity as far as we went through periods when he was single. You have a different standard, I guess, than when you're married. And so his single standard was one of being single, is the best I could put it, and while he was married, his integrity was not as I would have it. I would put it that way.
Q: And just speaking very generally again, first of all, you met Nicole Brown Simpson in '79 or '80?
A: I don't know the date. When he met her, I met her that same day..
Q: And you knew he had a long-term relationship with her up to the point they got married, did you not?
A: Yes.
Q: And would it be fair to describe Mr. Simpson as a womanizer during that time period he had the long-term relationship with Nicole prior to their marriage?
MS. LEVINE: A womanizer as my feminist friends would describe it as or a womanizer as is traditionally thought of on the golf course? What do you someone that was going out with other women
MR. KELLY: I was trying to be a little bit polite here
MS. LEVINE: Okay.
MR. KELLY: but I will go into detail and find out exactly what Mr. Kardashian considered a womanizer.
MS. LEVINE: That's kind of an odd term in the terms of what one would think of. I would think of it maybe differently than you would.
MR. KELLY: I don't know. We have had several witnesses in here who have described Mr. Simpson as a "womanizer." So it's a usual term in here, but we will go into detail.
MS. LEVINE: Go ahead. If it's a term
MR. PETROCELLI: No one has accused Mr. Simpson of being politically correct.
THE WITNESS: Repeat the question, please.
MR. KELLY: Could we do that, Dave?
(Pending question read as follows:
"Q. And would it be fair to describe Mr. Simpson as a womanizer during that time period he had the long-term relationship with Nicole prior to their marriage?")
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Could you tell me in your words what you would consider a womanizer?
A: Just dating several women, you know, or just dating around I guess is the best way I could put it.
Q: Okay. Would you consider that sleeping around with other women?
A: Yes.
Q: And was it your understanding that he was doing that at the same time he had this relationship with Nicole?
A: Yes.
Q: And was it your understanding that Nicole did not know about it?
A: That I don't know. I can't answer that.
Q: Well, were you ever aware of any attempts of Mr. Simpson to sleep with women that where efforts were made to keep it from Nicole?
A: I was not well, no. Let me just answer that and say no.
Q: Excuse me.
(Pause in the deposition.)
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did you share did Mr. Simpson live with you at some point prior to his getting married to Nicole?
A: Yes, he did.
Q: And that was when you had a house on Deep Canyon?
A: Yes.
Q: How long did he share that house with you for?
A: I think six months.
Q: That's all?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Okay. And could you tell me who, if anybody, he was dating at that time other than Nicole?
A: He was not dating Nicole at that time.
Q: Okay. Could you tell me what year that was?
A: No, I cannot. It would have been I mean, to the best of my recollection it would have been 1973 or '4 or '5 maybe. Right in there.
Q: And using this having the same
A: Actually I'm sorry I think it was even prior to that. I think it was maybe '72.
Q: And you, as I understand it, were fairly friendly still with Mr. Simpson after he and Nicole got married in 1985. Is that correct?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: And could you, if you are able to, describe his character as you knew it subsequent to his marriage in 1985?
A: Yes. I really did not see him too much during that period. We were couples, and so whenever I would see Mr. Simpson, it would be on a couple relationship. He and I didn't no longer hung out together as guys, single guys basically. So whenever would see Mr. Simpson, it would be in a social setting.
Q: You spent time with Mr. Simpson and Nicole from the time you met them till the time they got married, though, did you not?
A: Yes.
Q: Would it be fair to say that you spent a substantial amount of time with the two of them prior to their marriage?
A: What year did they get married?
Q: '85.
A: '85. No, that's not correct. I can explain.
Q: Sure.
A: Mr. Simpson and I had the type of relationship that I would see him maybe we'd go out three or four flights in one week, and then I wouldn't see him for six or eight months, and then we'd pick up where we left off and go out again with our wives every night for three, four nights, and then I wouldn't see him again for six months. So our relationship was lim-
Q: I am sorry. If I can just interrupt. First of all, when did you get married for the first time?
A: I've only been married once. It was 1978.
Q: And that was to Kris?
A: Yes.
Q: And the period that Simpson was dating Nicole between the time you he met her and the time they got married, you were basically married to Kris?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. So I just wanted to correct that. So the time you would spend with him was as couples most of the time?
A: It was almost always as couples. We did not spend time alone. I mean, I'm sure we'd go to lunch or something, but we really during the marriage period it was rare that O.J. and I would do something alone.
Q: What about the period prior to the marriage, from like late '70s to 1985?
A: No. I got married in '78.
Q: I'm sorry. I just want to clarify it. Prior to Simpson and Nicole's marriage in '85.
A: We did not spend much time with them other than as couples.
Q: So between '78 when you married and '85, most of the time with you and Simpson was spent as couples?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: And you had plenty of opportunities to observe Mr. Simpson with Nicole. Is that correct?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: And prior to Nicole's and Simpson's marriage in 1985 and all those times you'd spend with him, did you ever, first of all, see them have arguments?
A: I saw them have one argument in the whole time I've ever known them.
Q: Right up
A: Right up till today or till
Q: Till June of 1994?
A: That's correct.
Q: When was that one argument?
A: I don't know the year. I believe the year would have been 1989 or maybe '88, right in there.
Q: Okay. And where were you when you observed this argument?
A: I was in a limousine in New York.
Q: And who else was present there?
A: Kris, my ex-wife, O.J., Nicole and the limo driver.
Q: Do you recall the name of the limousine service?
A: No, I don't.
Q: Had you made arrangements for the limousine or had Mr. Simpson?
A: Mr. Simpson did.
Q: Do you recall, had you been to an event that night?
A: No. We were just going somewhere. I can't even recall where. We were going to dinner or going to I don't know where. We Kris and I had just come to spend a few days with O.J. and Nicole in New York.
Q: Were you staying at Simpson's condominium?
A: Yes.
Q: in New York?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you recall what time of year it was?
A: I think it was in the winter.
Q: Okay. And you can't remember where you were going?
A: No. No, I cannot.
Q: Do you
A: I just I believe we were just going to dinner somewhere.
Q: Can you tell me what happened or what you observed?
A: All I could recall, and I don't know how it even transpired, I don't know how it got on any subject, but all I remember is Nicole yelling at O.J. and just telling the limo driver to stop the car, and she got out.
Q: How long did this Did Simpson respond to her at all?
A: He just looked at Kris and I and said, "See what she does? See?" And she got she left I mean, when she got out of the car, he just said, "See what she does?"
Q: And what did you understand that to mean?
A: That, you know, she just would fly off the handle at certain times or get upset at him for no provocation, because there wasn't really anything they were arguing about.
Q: Had Mr. Simpson ever spoken to you before that moment about Nicole flying off the handle or arguing with him for no reason?
A: Yes.
Q: What had he told you?
A: Just basically that she gets upset at him, and she just will she was very volatile sometimes in her mood swings.
Q: Did she did he tell you why she would get upset with him, ever?
A: No, he would not. And really we didn't I mean, this is the first instance I ever saw we really didn't talk about
Q: You said it was the only instance.
A: It was the only one. We never talked about this because we weren't with them that much, Kris and I.
Q: I know, but you had just related to me several times he had expressed this to you.
A: He had told me that Nicole gets upset sometimes and will just go off on him for no reason.
Q: For no reason.
A: Yes.
Q: And was this the only time you saw her do it?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: But you had spent a fair amount of time with she and Simpson before this, hadn't you?
A: Yes, I had.
Q: Okay. Been out to dinner many times?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. You had gone on vacations with them?
A: Correct.
Q: Gone to Mexico?
A: Correct.
Q: Gone to Aspen?
A: Right.
Q: Had parties with them in the past together?
A: Yes.
Q: And you had never seen this happen before with Nicole?
A: I had never seen either one of them be abusive to the other.
Q: Okay. Did you consider this abusive that night?
A: Well, it was just it was just I found it not so much abusive. I found it out of character, out of the ordinary.
Q: For either one of them?
A: For either one of them.
Q: Okay. Mr. Kardashian, have you ever did it ever come to your attention that in 1979
First of all, were you aware of the fact that Mr. Simpson owned a condominium in San Francisco?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Was it ever brought to your attention that at one point Mr. Simpson had thrown all of Nicole's clothes out a window of the condominium in 1979?
MS. LEVINE: Aside from what he may have learned after June 13th?
MR. KELLY: Well, even after that. At any time.
MS. LEVINE: Well, if he learned it in the course of the representation of Mr. Simpson, I don't think that that's something he should be testifying about.
So if we break it down, I will let him answer it, and then if you want him to answer the second half of the question, then we will make the objection and you will have your record. But if you want to ask it broadly, he can't answer it. If you want to ask the first part
MR. KELLY: I am sorry. What was your suggestion as to the first part?
MS. LEVINE: Did he ever know of that prior to June 13, 1994.
MR. KELLY: Okay.
Q: Did you?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever learn of that subsequent to June 13, 1994 that
MS. LEVINE: I
MR. KELLY: Let me finish the question first.
MS. LEVINE: I apologize.
Q: that Mr. Simpson had thrown out Nicole's clothes out the window of the San Francisco condominium at one point in time?
A: No
Q: You have never heard that as you sit here today?
A: This is the first I've heard of it.
Q: If you were to hear that Mr. Simpson had thrown all of Nicole's clothes out a third-floor window of his condominium in 1979, would that seem out of character to you for Mr. Simpson?
A: Very much so.
Q: Very much so?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Okay. Prior to June 13th, 1994 had you ever heard that Mr. Simpson had physically picked up Nicole and thrown her out the front door of Rockingham during the course of an argument?
A: No, I've never heard that.
Q: Have you ever heard that as you sit here today?
A: No, I have never heard that.
Q: If you were to hear that, would that sound out of character for Mr. Simpson?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Prior to June 13,1994 had you ever heard that during the course of an argument with Nicole, that Mr. Simpson had shattered the windshield of the car she was sitting in during the course of an argument?
A: I had not heard that prior to that date.
Q: Have you heard that subsequent to that date?
MS. LEVINE: We will assert a privilege. Instruct him not to answer.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Would an incident like that be out of character for Mr. Simpson in your opinion?
MS. LEVINE: I am going to instruct him not to answer that part as well.
MR. KELLY: Okay.
Q: Prior to June 13, 1994 had you ever heard during the course of that New Year's Day incident of 199- 1989 I'm sorry that Mr. Simpson had pulled Nicole's hair and hit her?
MS. LEVINE: Can I have that reread? I missed the middle of it. I apologize.
MR. KELLY: Okay. David, could you read it back, please.
(Pending question read.)
MR. VAN SICKLEN: That's all one and the same incident? Is that what you're asking him about?
MR. KELLY: Yeah.
THE WITNESS: All I know is what I read in the newspaper and heard on television, and I can't recall whether they used those words or what they said. I just knew there was an altercation.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Did you know it as a physical altercation?
A: Yes.
Q: And did you know it at least that it was in essence that Mr. Simpson had been charged with spousal battery and Nicole was a victim of that spousal battery?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: And did that appear to be out of character for Mr. Simpson as you knew it?
A: As I knew it, yes.
Q: And prior to June 13, 1994 were you aware of an incident where the police had been called to Gretna Green in October of 1993 as a result of a 911 call Nicole had made?
A: I was unaware of that.
Q: You were
A: I was unaware of that.
Q: Okay. Subsequent to June 13, 1994 did you become...
A: I'm sorry.
Q: Okay. Subsequent to June 13, 1994 did you become aware of that tape from somewhere other than conversations with Mr. Simpson?
MS. LEVINE: Or things he learned in the course of work product?
MR. KELLY: Or even in the course of work product.
MS. LEVINE: Did he learn it in the course, or did he learn it aside from that, like reading it in the paper? I am trying to
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did you hear the tape in open court that was televised around the world, that 911 tape
A: Yes.
Q: from October of 1993?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you hear Mr. Simpson's voice on that tape?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you recognize it?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you hear him screaming?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you hear Nicole make the call?
A: I heard Nicole's voice.
Q: You heard her voice also.
A: Yes.
Q: Mr. Simpson as you heard him, did he sound out of character to you on that tape?
A: Yes.
Q: Totally out of character?
A: Yes.
Q: Had you ever heard him use that tone of voice before?
A: Never.
Q: Had you ever heard him use that language before?
A: No.
Q: Had you ever heard Nicole appear to be in that state of mind as she appeared on that tape at that time?
A: No.
MR. KELLY: We are going to take a break for a minute. He has to switch paper.
MS. LEVINE: Lunch or for a few minutes?
MR. KELLY: Just to switch things. Yeah, we will do why don't we do five minutes and break for lunch at 12:30?
MS. LEVINE: That's fine.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the end of tape No. l. The time is approximately 11:38, and we are off the record.
(Recess.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are on the record. The time is approximately ll:51 .This is the beginning of tape No. 2.
MR. KELLY: I think we had a question hanging, didn't we?
MS. LEVINE: I don't think so.
(Record read as follows:
"Q. Had you ever heard Nicole appear to be in that state of mind as she appeared on that tape at that time?
"A. No. ")
MR. KELLY:
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Going back to that tape for a second, did Nicole sound frightened to you?
A: Yeah.
Q: Okay. As you sit here today, do you have any common business interests with Mr. Simpson?
MR. VAN SICKLEN: Today?
MR. KELLY: Today.
THE WITNESS: No. No.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: No?
A: No.
Q: When did you first meet Nicole?
A: The day O.J. met her, and I don't know the date.
Q: Were you with him when he met her?
A: No, I was not.
Q: Do you know where he met her?
A: Yes.
Q: Where was that?
A: The Daisy restaurant in Beverly Hills.
Q: And where did you then meet her?
A: In my law offices.
Q: She came up there with him?
A: Yes.
Q: And it was your understanding that was the first time they had met?
A: Yes.
Q: What time was that they came up there?
A: Oh, approximately 3:00 or 4:00 in the afternoon.
Q: And would you describe her basic personality to me as you got to know it over the years, in general terms?
A: Sure. She was she was kind. She was sweet. I mean, I loved Nicole. Nicole was a fun person.
Q: Okay. She a good wife to Mr. Simpson?
A: Oh, she was a good wife and an excellent mother.
Q: And would you consider was she outgoing?
A: No, she wasn't. She was standoffish. I think it was because she was shy that she was she wasn't real outgoing until she got to know you.
Q: Okay. Now, I just mentioned in passing earlier or I had asked you in passing earlier that you had taken trips, you and your wife Kris, with the Simpsons on occasions?
A: Yes, we did.
Q: And was there a time that you and your then wife took a trip with the Simpsons and some other people to Acapulco?
A: Yes.
Q: And do you know what year that was in?
A: I do not.
Q: If I suggested 1989 to you, would that
A: If you say it, it's probably around that time.
Q: Okay. And would you be able to put it in the context of that New Year's Day, 1989 incident?
A: I don't understand your question. I'm sorry.
Q: Do you recall it do you recall going on that trip within a few months after the New Year's Day, 1989 incident?
A: No, I don't relate it to that. All I know is it was either their anniversary or Nicole's birthday, one of the I thought it was one of the two dates we were celebrating.
Q: Okay. Could it have been Nicole's 30th birthday?
A: That I don't know. Could have been. I just don't know.
Q: Do you know whether that trip had any significance in terms of the relationship between Nicole and O.J.?
A: No. I really never got into that very much.
Q: You have no idea what the state of their relationship was at the time this trip was taken?
A: No, I do not.
Q: Could you tell me who originally suggested taking the trip?
A: No, I could not.
Q: Could you tell me who planned the trip?
A: I don't know. It could have been O.J. I think O.J. did.
Q: And would it be fair to say that it was at his suggestion also?
A: I think so, yes.
Q: And you don't remember whether it was relative to that New Year's Day, '89 incident?
A: No, but it had to be I mean, if it was '89, then it had to be that summer, because I knew it as hot down there.
Q: But you have no idea what the state of Nicole and O.J.'s relationship was
A: No.
Q: at that time?
A: No.
Q: Going to June 13, 1994 Actually, strike that.
When was the first time after June 12, 1994 that you spoke to Mr. Simpson?
A: June 13,1994.
Q: Okay. And do you recall what time you spoke to him?
A: Approximately 4:00 o'clock in the afternoon.
Q: And where were you when you spoke to him?
A: In his offices.
Q: On San Vicente there? A: Yes.
Q: And did you speak to him in person?
A: Yes.
Q: And who else was there when you initially spoke to Mr. Simpson that day?
A: Mr. Weitzman, Mr. Taft. And Ms. Randa was in another room, I believe. I think she she could have been in and out; I don't recall, but she was around there also.
Q: Okay. And could you tell me the substance of that conversation?
MS. LEVINE: If I could have a moment. I don't know if this is a conversation upon which there is a claim of privilege or not.
MR. VAN SICKLEN: Well, if Mr. Weitzman was around, it sounds like there probably would be.
MS. LEVINE: It's
MR. KELLY: I don't agree with you, so...
MR. VAN SICKLEN: We have established foundationally that Howard Weitzman was representing O.J. as of that time, haven't we?
MR. KELLY: Yes, but it's my understanding also that if you have a conversation between attorney and client and there are other individuals present there other than the attorney and the client, there is a waiver of that privilege, and they can discuss the content or the substance of that conversation.
MR. VAN SICKLEN: That's
MS. LEVINE: If there are non-persons [sic] that are part of the relationship. You can have a conversation with your secretary present if they are there for furtherance of the relationship, or other lawyers or things like that.
If you want to
MR. KELLY: But I understand Mr. Kardashian himself by being present there at that time and he was not acting in an attorney capacity, he himself as a layperson would in and of itself constitute that situation where you have non-attorneys there who are not acting in the capacity of providing legal services. He wasn't Mr. Weitzman's paralegal or secretary or any part of his staff at that point.
MS. LEVINE: No. It depends a lot on what Mr. Simpson's perception was when he goes in. Let's say he perceives Mr. we don't need to go into this Kardashian as a lawyer at that point and everyone else does, and he makes a statement.
I think it's probably best if I either we either go off the record for a minute; I discuss this with Mr. Kardashian, or if you want to go forward and take this up after lunch, if you want to go back to it. I don't know how you want to do it.
MR. KELLY: Why don't you discuss it now with your client.
MS. LEVINE: Okay.
MR. KELLY: Okay.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 11:59.
(Discussion held between the witness and counsel outside the hearing of the reporter.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record now, and the time is approximately 12:01.
MS. LEVINE: You want the question reread?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
MR. KELLY: Not yet.
Q: Mr. Kardashian, you had just stepped out of the room for a couple moments?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Did you converse with anybody other than Miss Levine while you were outside the room at that time?
A: Yes.
Q: Could you tell me who else you conversed with?
A: Mr. Van What is it?
MR. VAN SICKLEN: Van Sicklen.
THE WITNESS: Van Sicklen.
MS. LEVINE: Who I was introduced to as Mr. Simpson's lawyer, so
MR. KELLY: I understand that. He wasn't introduced as Mr. Kardashian's lawyer, was he?
MS. LEVINE: No. No.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Could you have tell me what, if anything, you discussed with the gentleman who is Mr. Simpson's attorney just now?
A: Yes. We discussed what transpired, in trying to answer your question.
Q: Could you tell me specifically what that conversation was?
MS. LEVINE: You know, I asked Mr. Van Sicklen to come out because I wanted his assistance in determining whether what he thought that Mr. Simpson's perception was as to this conversation because I thought that was an important part in determining whether or not there was a privilege.
It is Mr. Simpson's privilege, and it's for Mr. Simpson and his counsel to determine how it's to be asserted. If you don't want me to ask Mr. Van Sicklen his position on these things, then please tell me right now on the record that you don't want me to ask that.
Otherwise, I think that it's incumbent on me, if I have a question on something, to try and get information from wherever I can to make the assertions in the most reasonable way possible. And so I was the one that asked him to come out, and I asked him to do that to facilitate my relationship with Mr. Kardashian.
MR. KELLY: I understand that, but I am not asking about any conversations you had with
MS. LEVINE: Well
MR. KELLY: Mr. Van Sicklen. I am asking about any conversations Mr. Kardashian had with Mr. Van Sicklen, which is
MS. LEVINE: No, I know you are asking that, but I used him for part of my relationship with Mr. Kardashian. That's part of mine and Mr. Kardashian's privilege, and I needed that to further my relationship with Mr. Kardashian.
To the extent that lawyers discuss things, whether or not their client is present, that doesn't mean that it can be gone into by anybody else that's present.
I needed to ask him a question. I asked him to come out there so that I could ask him something about his perception of something. If you have a problem with that, that's fine. I am not going to permit Mr. Kardashian to answer any questions on that.
MR. KELLY: Okay. Could we go back to the question that was
Once again, the same caveat I would throw in there: By moving along, I am not agreeing with your position.
MS. LEVINE: That's fine. I don't expect you to agree with my position.
MR. KELLY: Okay.
To the last question there was prior to them taking the break and conferring out in the hallway.
MS. LEVINE: If I might for a second
MR. KELLY: Sure.
MS. LEVINE: I don't know if you are making the faces for my benefit, for Mr. Kardashian's benefit
MR. PETROCELLI: There is to point there is no reason for you to make these comments, Miss Levine.
MS. LEVINE: About the faces?
MR. PETROCELLI: I am not making any faces. I am shaking my head.
MS. LEVINE: Okay.
MR. PETROCELLI: I wasn't distracting you. I wasn't distracting your client.
MS. LEVINE: It was
MR. PETROCELLI: In fact your objections are meritless, and when it's my turn to examine I will expose how meritless they are, and if you know, there is no reason for you to provoke a problem here at the deposition. Take your position
MS. LEVINE: I am not trying to provoke a problem
MR. PETROCELLI: and we will get on with it. Okay?
MS. LEVINE: but if you are shaking your head, it was something that brought something up, obviously, with me. It was bothering me. MR. PETROCELLI: Well, I'm sorry that it's bothering you, but I think you haven't done a fair and reasonable job of studying this matter. You've taken you've asserted the attorney-client privilege with respect to matters that have been fully testified to at length about by other witnesses
MS. LEVINE: You know
MR. PETROCELLI: in the presence of the holder of the privilege, Mr. Simpson, and his counsel, absolutely frivolous assertion of privileges, a complete effort to cover up and block information
MS. LEVINE: You know, if you are saying this for the benefit of television, you can go outside and say it.
MR. PETROCELLI: Excuse me. You started it.
and when it's my turn to examine we will get to that matter, and then I will shake my head to your heart's content.
MS. LEVINE: Well, my heart isn't content, but, you know, what's gone on with other witnesses is one thing. I am trying to represent Mr. Kardashian, and I understand the privilege in one way. If you understand it
MR. PETROCELLI: It's not your privilege, and it's not his privilege.
MS. LEVINE: That's right. So
MR. PETROCELLI: And Mr. Van Sicklen has not asserted it, and you have no right to assert it.
MR. VAN SICKLEN: Yes, I have.
MS. LEVINE: He is obligated under the state Bar code to assert it.
MR. PETROCELLI: Not in the presence of the holder of the privilege, and he has not asserted the privilege with respect to certain conversations on behalf of his client that you have, and we will get to that.
MS. LEVINE: Very well. File your motion. Do you want to read
MR. PETROCELLI: No. We are going to get to it today.
MS. LEVINE: Well, I don't think you're the person that can decide whether there is a privilege there or not.
MR. PETROCELLI: We'll see.
MS. LEVINE: Unless you are going to like put up your dukes and fight about it. I mean, generally, I don't see any robes on you.
MR. KELLY: Now might be a good time to stop for lunch.
MS. LEVINE: You think?
MR. KELLY: Yeah.
MS. LEVINE: You don't want to go back to your question
MR. PETROCELLI: I think you should finish you were in the middle of a question.
MR. KELLY: Why don't we finish that one.
(Record read as follows:
"Q. And who else was there when you initially spoke to Mr. Simpson that day?
"A. Mr. Weitzman, Mr. Taft. And Ms. Randa was in another room, I believe. I think she she could have been in and out; I don't recall, but she was around there also.
Q. Okay. And could you tell me the substance of that conversation?")
MS. LEVINE: Objection. Attorney-client and attorney work product privilege.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Going back to let me ask you: When was the first time you heard of Nicole's murder?
A: Approximately 10:00 or 11:00 o'clock on the 13th.
Q: Okay. And could you tell me how you heard it?
A: Yes. I received a telephone call from a friend of mine. She told me.
Q: And was that friend's name
A: Shelli Azoff.
Q: And did she indicate to you how she had heard of Nicole's murder?
A: Yes, she did. She heard it from her hairdresser.
Q: Is that Alex?
A: Alex Roldan.
Q: And could you tell me exactly what Shelli said to you when she called you?
A: Yes. She said, "Robert, I just heard that Nicole was shot and killed."
Q: Did she indicate okay. Go on. Anything else she said?
A: No. You know, other than, you know, "What do you know about it," or whatever.
Q: Okay. And where were you when you received this call?
A: I was in my office.
Q: Where was that office located?
A: In my in my home.
Q: Okay. Do you have any office other than a home office?
A: No. I work out of my home.
Q: And what is the address of that home? And if you want to write it down, that's fine, too.
A: You've got it in your reports, but I will write it down for you.
MS. LEVINE: I think it's on the subpoena.
MR. KELLY: I am sorry?
MS. LEVINE: I think it's on the subpoena as well.
MR. KELLY: That's okay.
(Witness complies.)
MR. KELLY: Could we mark this as an exhibit? That's what we've been doing.
Q: Do you care if this address is on the record or not, Mr. Kardashian?
A: I'd rather it not be, just because I have children that live with me and for my
Q: That's fine. Could we just mark this as an exhibit?
(Plaintiffs' Exhibit 180 was marked for identification by the reporter and was retained by counsel.)
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Was anybody with you at the time you received that phone call from Shelli, Mr. Kardashian?
A: No, sir.
Q: Okay. As a result of that phone call, did you make any phone calls?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Okay. Did you make them from your home office?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: And could you tell me who you called?
A: Yes. I called the Simpson residence to find out if this were correct.
Q: Okay. And did anybody answer the phone at the Simpson residence?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Could you tell me who answered the phone?
A: I it was a voice I didn't recognize, and I believe he said it was Detective Fuhrman, but I can't I can't be certain about that, but it was not Mr. Simpson.
Q: Well, during the course of the criminal trial in '94 and '95, you heard days of Detective Fuhrman's voice, did you not?
A: Yes, but I didn't know it at the time I called.
Q: Now as you sit here today, could you tell me who answered the phone
A: No, I couldn't.
Q: at the Simpson residence?
A: No, I could not.
Q: Do you recognize that voice as having been Detective Fuhrman's voice, now that you have heard his voice so often? A: No. I just was didn't focus in on the voice at all.
Q: Did the voice identify itself or himself?
A: I believe he identified himself as Detective Fuhrman, LAPD
Q: Okay.
A: but I just cannot be sure if I made that up as a result of what went on in the criminal trial or whether that in fact happened, so I don't want to
Q: Could you give me your best guess as to who answered the phone at the Simpson
A: I believe it was I'm sorry.
Q: Yes. Could you give me your best guess as to who answered the phone at the Simpson residence when you made that initial call that morning?
A: My best guess is it was Detective Fuhrman.
Q: And could you tell me what, if anything, was the substance of that conversation with Detective Fuhrman?
A: Yes.
Q: Please tell me.
A: I asked, "Is Mr. Simpson home?" And the Detective Fuhrman said, "Who's calling?" I identified myself
Q: How did you identify yourself?
A: I believe I said, "It's Robert Kardashian. I am a friend and attorney." And he said
Q: Do you I am sorry to interrupt. Do you specifically recall identifying yourself as a friend and attorney"?
A: Yes, because I felt I would get more information.
Q: Okay.
A: So I do recall doing that.
Q: Okay. I'm sorry to interrupt. Go ahead.
A: I asked him I said, "I just heard Nicole was shot and killed." And he said, "She was killed. " And I said, "You mean she wasn't shot?" And he said, "No. She was killed." And I said, "Well, can you give me any more information?" And he said, "No. Thank you," and he hung up.
Q: No further conversation?
A: End of call.
Q: No indication where Mr. Simpson was?
A: I did not ask. I figured he was there, but they just didn't let me talk to him.
Q: Okay. Did you make any other phone calls from that home office after that one call to the Simpson residence?
A: Yes.
Q: And who was the next phone call to?
A: I called Shelli Azoff back. and I said, "Nicole was" "Yes, she's been killed, but I don't know how." And I think I may have said, "I'm going go over there."
Q: What was your relationship with Shelli Azoff?
A: She's just a friend of Kris and I, her and her husband.
Q: Generally close friend?
A: Yeah. Yes, I would say. We socialize with them, we've been on trips with them, that type of thing.
Q: Okay. After you had called Shelli, did you make any other calls from the home office?
A: No. I believe I told Denice, my fiance
Q: That's Halicki?
A: Denice Halicki. that Nicole was killed
Q: Did Denice know Nicole?
A: Yes. And I said, "I'm going to go over there."
Q: And did you?
A: And then I did. I got in my car and I drove over.
Q: Okay. Which car did you get into?
A: My Mercedes.
Q: Okay. Is there a car phone in that Mercedes?
A: Yes, there is.
Q: How long a drive is it from your residence where you received the call to the Rockingham residence?
A: Basically l0 minutes.
Q: Did you make any phone calls on your car phone en route from your place to the Simpson residence on Rockingham?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: Okay. Could you tell me the first phone call you made?
A: I called Kris, my next wife.
Q: Okay. And could you relate the substance of that conversation to me?
A: I don't remember much of it other than to say to advise her what had happened to Nicole.
Q: What did you tell her happened to Nicole?
A: I think I said, "Did you hear Nicole was killed?"
And she said, "Yes. Judy Brown just" "I've been on the phone to Judy, and I was supposed to have lunch with Nicole today. I was going to meet her at 11:00 o'clock today."
Q: Okay. Did she okay. Keep going.
A: And other than that, I said, "Well, I'm on my way over there now. I'm going to go see go over and see O.J."
Q: You had known Nicole for a number of years, had you not, sir?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: And did you know that she lived on Bundy at that time?
A: No, I did not.
Q: Did you know where she was living at that time?
A: No, I did not.
Q: After this conversation you had with Kris, your This would have been your ex-wife at that time. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: did you make any other phone calls?
A: I don't think so, no. I don't think so.
Q: Okay.
A: Excuse me. I could have called my brother or I could have called I really don't recall. Kris is the only one I recall.
Q: Okay. Did you have your car radio on at all when you were making the drive over there?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Do you recall hearing any news reports before arriving at Rockingham?
A: No, I don't.
Q: Could you describe exactly what you observed as you arrived at Rockingham?
A: Yes. There were police several police cars and some press standing around on the Rockingham street.
Q: Okay. Were those black-and-whites, the cars you saw?
A: I don't recall. I would I'm sure there was one or two black-and-whites.
Q: Okay. Did you observe First of all, we would you be able to approximate how many times you've been over to Rockingham in the last two years?
A: Oh
Q: Prior to this
A: Prior to the murders?
Q: Yeah.
A: Maybe never. Maybe one.
Q: Were you familiar with where Mr. Simpson would generally park his cars over there?
A: No, not really.
Q: Okay. When you approached Rockingham, did you observe I take it you approached on the Rockingham street?
A: No. I always approach on the Ashford street.
Q: Okay. And did you see any police cars on Ashford?
A: I don't recall.
MR. KELLY: Why don't we stop here for lunch.
MS. LEVINE: How long do you take?
MR. KELLY: Hour.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 12:19.
(At the hour of 12:19 p.m., a luncheon recess was taken, the deposition to resume at 1:19 p.m.)
(At the hour of 1:35 p.m., the deposition of ROBERT G. KARDASHIAN was resumed at the same place, the same persons being present. Also present are Arthur Groman and Fredric Goldman.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record now, and the time is approximately 1:35.
EXAMINATION (Resumed)
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Mr. Kardashian, you had indicated that when you first arrived at Rockingham This is late morning on June 13,1994?
A: Yes.
Q: that you saw several police cars parked on Rockingham.
A: I believe so.
Q: Okay. Where did you park at that time?
A: I parked on Ashford.
Q: Did you see any other cars on Ashford at that time?
A: I I can't recall. I'm sure there were some, but I can't recall.
Q: Do you recall who, if anybody, you saw on the Ashford side of the Rockingham residence at that time when you parked?
A: No.
Q: Do you recall if anybody was there?
A: No, I do not.
Q: Do you know if there were any police officers around the Ashford gate?
A: I do not.
Q: What did you do next after you parked your car on Ashford?
A: I walked up to the police officer that was standing at the Rockingham gate, and I asked I identified myself and asked if I could come in, and he said no.
Q: So you had walked down Ashford and around the corner onto Rockingham?
A: Yes.
Q: And do you recall seeing anybody other than that one police officer at that time who you spoke to?
A: Yes. There was a female officer standing there also
Q: In uniform?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay.
A: And I don't know I didn't know anybody, so I don't know who else was there.
Q: Were there any members of the media in the Rockingham gate area at that time?
A: Yes, there were.
Q: Did any of them ask you any questions?
A: No, they did not.
Q: Did you ask any of them any questions?
A: No.
Q: Do you recall seeing any cameras there at that time?
A: Yes.
Q: After this brief discussion with this one police officer, could you tell me what you did next?
A: I stood to the side of the gate
Q: The Rockingham gate?
A: Yes, to the south side, I guess it would be.
Q: Would that be the side with the key to the gate opener on it? Do you know?
A: Yes, that side, yes.
Q: Okay.
A: And I stood there for approximately, I thought, about 10 or 15 minutes.
Q: Why were you just standing there?
A: I and I don't know how I learned this, but I had learned that Mr. Simpson was out of town and he was on his way back, so I stood there, figuring that I could be of some assistance in some way.
Q: Okay. You can't recall at all who had told you he was on his way back?
A: No, because I there was nobody there that I knew. It could have been, you know, somebody from the press or just hearing it. I really don't know how I learned it.
Q: As you waited to the side of the Rockingham gate, did anybody show up there prior to Simpson who you knew or recognized?
A: No, I don't believe so.
Q: Okay. What happened next in terms of activity after you had been standing by the Rockingham gate? What happened at some point?
A: Mr. Taft, Mr. Simpson and Miss Randa pulled up in the car.
Q: Do you recall which gate they pulled up to?
A: Yes. The Rockingham gate.
Q: Okay. And whose car were they in at that point?
A: I believe Mr. Taft's.
Q: And where was Mr. Simpson seated within the car? Front or back seat?
A: Front.
Q: And Cathy Randa was in the back?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: And what type of car was that?
A: At that time, I don't know. I've subsequently learned what type of car Mr. Taft has. Whether that was the car he had at the time, I don't know.
Q: Okay. So you don't know what he had there at the time.
A: No. I didn't pay any attention.
Q: And you haven't subsequently learned exactly what car he had at that time that he pulled up?
A: No. I know what he has now, and it could be the same car. I just didn't pay any attention.
Q: What kind of car does he have now?
A: He has a Cadillac Seville, I believe, or El Dorado.
Q: What color car is that?
A: Dark. I don't know if it's green or black, but it's a dark color.
Q: After they pulled up to the Rockingham gate, did he point the car into the gate?
A: No, he did not. He pulled up to the curb just past the gate, just past the driveway.
Q: Do you recall seeing the white Bronco out there in the vicinity of the Rockingham gate while you were waiting there?
A: No, it was not there.
Q: You did not see the white Bronco at all that morning when you arrived there?
A: No. I don't recall seeing it. The only reason I stated that I didn't think it was there is because subsequently I've seen pictures as to where it was parked, and Mr. Taft parked right in the spot where the Bronco was previously, so I would imagine it was not there at that time.
Q: You never saw it towed away?
A: No, I did not.
Q: What happened after Mr. Taft pulled into that spot just past the Rockingham entrance?
A: Mr. Simpson got out of the car and walked directly in the driveway.
Q: Was the gate open or closed prior to his arrival?
A: Open.
Q: Was it open the entire time you were waiting there outside it?
A: Yes.
Q: And did you see Well, did he come over to you?
A: No, he did not.
Q: Did you go over to him?
A: I did not.
Q: Did you make any indication to him you wanted to speak to him?
A: I did not.
Q: Did he look in your direction?
A: No, he did not.
Q: Were you able to hear what, if anything, he said to those police officers at the gate there?
A: No, I did not.
Q: Do you know whether or not he did say anything to them?
A: No I do not.
Q: Do you know whether they said anything to him?
A: No.
Q: Were you watching Mr. Simpson as he approached the officers?
A: Yes, I was.
Q: And you don't recall if there was any conversation between them?
A: No, I didn't hear any. When Mr. Simpson got out and started walking towards the gate, I just started walking towards the car because I saw Cathy getting out.
Q: Hadn't you been waiting there to see Mr. Simpson
A: Yes.
Q: prior to his arrival?
A: Yes.
Q: But when he arrived there, you made no attempt to speak to him?
A: No. It was a matter of 30 seconds. He just walked straight in, just walked right by, wasn't looking at anything other than straight ahead and just walked right in.
Q: Did he walk right by the police officers at the gate?
A: That I don't know.
Q: Did you
A: I think subsequently I've seen video that showed that he walked just walked right on in.
Q: And what did you do after he walked in, if anything?
A: Cathy was getting out of the car, and she was carrying a bag, one of his luggage bags, and I went and I held it for her.
Q: She was in the back seat at that time?
A: Yes.
Q: And to the best of your recollection, was that garment bag in the back seat with her?
A: That's correct.
Q: Did you see any other luggage at that time?
A: No, I did not.
Q: Did you ever see the trunk opened?
MS. LEVINE: Ever in that period of time or
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: During that period of time that day, did you ever see anybody open Mr. Taft's trunk?
A: I don't no, I don't believe so.
Q: Did you ever see any other luggage in the back seat?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever see any other luggage anywhere in the car?
A: No. I didn't walk up and look inside the car. I believe she was exiting the car as I walked up.
Q: And she had something in her hand?
A: Yes.
Q: As she was exiting the car?
A: I think so.
Q: Was she even out of the car yet?
A: I thought she was, yes.
Q: Okay. Did you see her reach back in for the bag?
A: I don't know. I would imagine so. I don't believe she would get out with the bag, so I'm sure she would have, but I can't recall that.
Q: But other than that one bag you saw her with, you have no recollection of any other luggage at that time of that day?
A: That's correct.
Q: Okay. And what, if anything, did Miss Randa do after she got out of the car with this bag?
A: I she stood there, and I said, "Let me hold the bag for you"
Q: Okay.
A: and then
Q: Did she say anything?
A: She probably I don't know. I mean, I'm sure she would have said I'd just be guessing. She probably would have said, "Oh, Robert, how horrible," or something to that effect.
Q: And you don't recall
A: No.
Q: any other conversation?
A: No.
Q: Have you seen any videotapes of yourself with Cathy Randa at this moment we're speaking of?
A: No, I don't think I've seen any videotape of this moment.
Q: And to the best of your recollection, that's the only conversation you recall
A: That's correct.
Q: having with her at that time?
A: Yes.
Q: Was that car door ever closed again that Cathy Randa had gotten out of?
A: I don't know.
Q: Did you ever look in the car after she had gotten out of it?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever ask her if she had any other luggage with her?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever ask her if there was anything else in terms of luggage you could help her with?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever see Skip Taft with any luggage?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Did you ever learn how many bags Mr. Simpson had brought back from Chicago with him?
MS. LEVINE: Objection. Calls for privileged information, work product. Calls for privileged or work product information.
If you want to ask him if he knew at that point on that day, I would have no objection to that question.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: As you took that one garment bag from Cathy Randa at that time of that day, do you know if Mr. Simpson had any other luggage with him at that time?
A: Yes.
Q: Did he?
A: Yes.
Q: And where was that luggage?
A: He had when he exited the car, he had a black duffle bag over his shoulder.
Q: Okay. Did he walk in with that black duffel bag?
A: Yes.
Q: Other than that black duffel bag and the garment bag that you took, did you see any other luggage that day?
A: No, I did not.
Q: Did you ever at any time in the future see any other luggage Mr. Simpson had with him that day?
MS. LEVINE: Objection. Calls for privileged information or attorney work product information, but with the caveat that there is an incident that you and I spoke about that I told you that I have no objection to him testifying to on that ground having to do with the golf bag that occurs later
MR. KELLY: Well, Miss Levine, I know what we spoke about, but I'm of the opinion and firm opinion that none of his observations or actions are privileged.
MS. LEVINE: None of
MR. KELLY: At this point. I am asking about those observations. Anything he observed in terms of luggage couldn't possibly fall under the guise or claim of privilege at this point.
MS. LEVINE: Perhaps I misunderstood your question. I thought, did he know at any point
MR. KELLY: Okay, I will change the word "know" to "observe."
MS. LEVINE: If you are asking him what he observed that day or at the incident we were alluding to at this other subsequent day, that's fine, but I interpreted the question differently.
MR. KELLY: Okay.
Q: At that time, other than the black shoulder bag Mr. Simpson walked in with and the garment bag that you had taken from Cathy Randa, did you observe any other luggage at that time?
A: No.
Q: Any time subsequent to that did you observe any other luggage that had come back from Chicago with Mr. Simpson?
A: Yes.
Q: And was that the golf bag?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Prior to discussing the golf bag, was there any other luggage, other than that black duffel bag, garment bag and golf bag, that you ever observed on June 13 or thereafter that was luggage that had come back from Chicago with Mr. Simpson?
A: You are going to have to repeat that. Prior to I'm sorry. Was that prior to?
Q: Was there any other luggage, other than the black duffel bag, the golf bag and the garment bag you took on the 13th from Cathy Randa, any other luggage you ever observed that came back from Chicago with Mr. Simpson?
A: Yes.
Q: And what was that?
A: This was a well, I'm assuming it came back from Chicago. I don't I wasn't there at the time. I don't know. But there was a silk hang bag with O.J.'s initials on it, and there was a small, little bag, maybe maybe a foot, two feet, a smaller bag.
Q: When you say a foot to two feet, is that length you're talking about?
A: Length, yes.
Q: And what about height on that bag?
A: I would say about a foot high.
Q: Would you be able to describe what type of bag that was?
A: No. No, I really I can't.
MR. BREWER: Mr. Kardashian, can you keep your voice up, please?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Could you tell me what color that bag was?
A: It was either a black or dark blue bag.
Q: Do you recall what type of handles the bag had?
A: Yes. I thought it had just two loop handles. I don't know how to describe it, but two handles on it.
Q: Okay. Do you recall seeing any emblems or writing or anything of the sort on that particular bag?
A: I think there was an emblem, but I can't recall. I think there may have been.
Q: Was it like a brown
A: A brown leather
Q: leather emblem?
A: Yeah, I believe so.
Q: And at what point did you observe this bag?
A: I observed this bag at my home.
Q: On what day?
A: I don't know.
Q: Would it have been after June 13?
A: Oh, yes, sir.
Q: Would it be after June 14?
A: It would have been June 14 or later.
Q: Did you ever see anybody in possession of that bag?
A: No. No.
Q: Where did you observe the bag in your house?
A: In my daughter's bedroom.
Q: How had the bag gotten up to your daughter's bedroom?
A: I that I don't know. Either my housekeeper took it up probably my housekeeper took it up, but I don't know how it got there.
Q: Do you know where it was before it was in your daughter's bedroom?
A: I believe it would have been in my automobile.
Q: Do you know how it would have gotten in your automobile?
A: Either I didn't put it there, so I don't know. Mr. Simpson had to put it there, and I don't recall if that was part of the golf bag or not.
Q: Let me ask you: You observed Mr. Simpson when he picked up the golfbag at the airport, did you not?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: When you Strike that. I'll go back to that.
Let's first go back to when you took the garment bag from Cathy Randa. What, if anything, did you do with that bag next?
A: I walked up to the police officer and attempted to give it to him, and he refused
Q: How did you attempt to give it to him?
A: I walked up to him and I said, "I have Mr. Simpson's luggage."
And he said, "I'm sorry. You can't come in."
Q: Did you When you say you "attempted to give it to him, " did you say, "Here, take it"?
A: No, I did not. I
Q: Did you extend it to him?
A: No, I did not.
Q: In what manner did you offer to give it to him?
A: Cathy and I were standing on the side of the Rockingham gate, and I it was sitting on the ground, and I walked over to the police officer
Q: How did it come to be sitting on the ground?
A: I just set it down because I was hugging Cathy, and we were very upset, and so we were standing there just hugging and crying and whatever.
Q: Any conversation?
A: Yeah. Yeah.
Q: Can you tell me the substance of the conversation then?
A: Basically, "I can't believe this has happened. Poor Nicole." Just commiserating about what had happened, and not and again, we didn't know what had happened other than she was killed.
Q: Do you recall what Cathy said to you?
A: She was just crying and saying the same thing basically.
Q: And what happened next?
A: Then and during this time the bag was sitting at our feet. I walked over to the police officer, and I said, "Mr. Simpson's bag is sitting here. You should take it. It's his luggage."
And he says, "You can't bring it in." I said, "But it's his luggage. You should take it."
And he said, "No, you can't come in."
Q: Well, did you find his answer unresponsive to what you were saying?
A: I was surprised that he wouldn't want the luggage.
Q: Well, did you ever carry it over to him?
A: No, I did not.
Q: Did you ever tell him you were going to leave it anywhere there?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever ask him to go get Mr. Simpson to come get his luggage?
A: No. Mr. Simpson was handcuffed at this time.
Q: Okay. Did you see him handcuffed, by the way?
MS. LEVINE: The act of being handcuffed or in the handcuffs?
MR. KELLY: The act of being handcuffed.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: How long after you arrived there did you see him in handcuffs?
A: After he arrived there?
Q: How long after he arrived there did you observe him in handcuffs?
A: I don't know. I thought it was pretty quick. I mean, I thought it was maybe a matter of five or ten minutes, but I can't be sure.
Q: Did you see the handcuffs placed on him?
A: No, I did not.
Q: Were you surprised to see him in handcuffs?
A: Yes.
Q: Where in the yard was he when you saw him in the handcuffs?
A: He was in the front by the doll house.
Q: And that's in the circular area
A: Yes.
Q: of the front yard?
Let me finish the question before you answer, Mr. Kardashian. And did you speak to anybody at that time when you saw him in handcuffs?
A: No.
Q: Did you approach any officer concerning Mr. Simpson when you saw him in handcuffs?
A: No.
Q: When you had called earlier, you had identified yourself as a friend and attorney for Mr. Simpson, had you not?
A: Yes.
Q: And you were waiting there at Mr. Simpson's residence when he arrived home to see if he needed any help, were you not?
A: Yes.
Q: And when you saw him in handcuffs, you made no efforts to lend assistance in any way at that time?
A: No. Mr. Weitzman was there at that time, and I knew that he would be taken care of.
Q: When did Mr. Weitzman arrive?
A: I can't recall if he arrived before Mr. Simpson got home or after. I think it was after Mr. Simpson got there, but I can't be sure.
Q: Did you see him pull up?
A: Yeah. Yeah, I did, but I just can't recall whether it was prior or subsequent to.
Q: Did you have any conversation with him when he pulled up?
A: I don't believe so.
Q: Do you recall how he entered the premises?
A: I believe through the Rockingham gate.
Q: The gate you were waiting by right there?
A: Yes.
Q: And you had no discussions with him?
A: I don't recall having any. I could have, but I just don't recall.
Q: And what happened next?
A: The best of my recollection
Q: By the way I'm sorry. Sorry to interrupt you where was Skip Taft at this time that Mr. Simpson was in handcuffs?
A: I never saw him again.
Q: Did he ever get out of the car?
A: I believe he got out of the car and walked in, in on the property.
Q: Was that prior to you taking the bag from Cathy?
A: No. I would have taken the bag, and then I would have since Skip was on the driver's side, by the time he walked in I would have already had the bag in my hand.
Is that your best recollection as to what Mr. Taft did at that time?
A: Yes.
Q: And did you see him with Mr. Simpson when he had handcuffs on at any time?
A: I don't recall seeing Skip again until until later.
Q: Okay. What happened Was anybody out there with you and Candy Cathy when you saw handcuffs on Mr. Simpson?
A: Nobody that I knew, no.
Q: Were you surprised to see handcuffs on Mr. Simpson?
A: Yes.
Q: Very?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you say anything to Cathy at that time?
MS. LEVINE: About the handcuffs or generally?
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Or about anything. After you saw Mr. Simpson in handcuffs, did you say anything to Cathy?
A: I think it was I can't recall if I did or not.
Q: Do you recall her saying anything to you?
A: No.
Q: Have you seen any videotapes of yourself with Cathy at the time Mr. Simpson was in handcuffs?
A: I've seen the videotape of us hugging each other, and I don't know if he was handcuffed by then or not.
Q: Okay.
A: But that's the only tape I've seen.
Q: What happened next after you saw the handcuffs on Simpson?
A: To the best of my knowledge, he then they he walked out of his property, and they put him in a police car.
Q: Did he still have handcuffs on when he got in the police car?
A: No. They were removed by then.
Q: Who did he walk out of the premises with?
A: Again, this recollection is via videotape, what I've seen subsequently. I don't recall other than what I've recollected in by watching videotape.
Q: Well
A: So as far as that goes, I saw him with Mr. Weitzman and Detective Vannatter.
Q: Just the three of them?
A: Yes.
Q: And where do you recall where you were standing when they came out of Rockingham at this time?
A: Yes. Yes.
Q: Where were you standing?
A: I was standing in the same position I had been: At the southern most part of the gate.
Q: Same general area you remained in?
A: Yes. I stayed there the entire time.
Q: Did you say anything to Mr. Simpson as he was leaving the premises?
A: No, I did not.
Q: Did he say anything to you?
A: No.
Q: Did you have any discussion with Vannatter?
A: No.
Q: Did you have any discussion with Weitzman?
A: No. Excuse me. Yes, I did.
Q: Would you relate to me what the substance of that conversation was?
A: He said, "We're going down to Parker Center," and he said, "we should be a few hours."
And I said, "Okay. I'll go to O.J.'s office with Cathy."
Q: And did you remain there while they got in the car?
A: I remained at the position I was standing in, yes.
Q: Were you still in that position when the car with Mr. Simpson in it left?
A: Yeah, I believe so, yes.
Q: And then what did you do?
A: And then after the car pulled away, everyone started to disperse, so I picked up the bag and I went to my car with Cathy.
Q: Was there anybody else that arrived during that period of time that you spoke to prior to picking up the bag and walking away, other than the people we've mentioned already?
A: I don't believe so. No, I don't believe I spoke with anybody other than Cathy.
Q: Where did you put that bag in your car?
A: In my trunk.
Q: Did you piece anything else in your trunk other than that one garment bag?
A: No.
Q: What did you do then after you had that bag in the trunk?
A: I drove Cathy to the office, to O.J.'s office, and we went up to the office.
Q: Where was the bag at the time you went up to the office?
A: In my trunk.
Q: Okay. Was that car locked?
A: I gave it to the valet.
Q: And how long did you remain in your office for?
MS. LEVINE: Excuse me. That misstates the testimony. You said "your office."
MR. KELLY: Oh.
Q: How long did you remain in Mr. Simpson's office for?
A: Till about 6:00 o'clock that evening.
Q: What time was it that you arrived there?
A: I would imagine, I don't know for sure, but probably 12:00, 1:00 o'clock, 2:00 o'clock, right in there.
Q: Who, if anybody else, came up to the office during that period of time you were there?
A: I don't think anybody other than Cathy and I. There were people in Skip's no. Just Skip's secretaries, but I don't recall anybody else going in there.
Q: Did you make any phone calls while you were there?
A: I was basically To answer your question, yes.
Q: Okay.
A: Yeah.
Q: Could you tell me approximately how many phone calls you made?
A: Four or five.
Q: Do you recall who those phone calls were made to?
A: I do not. I'm sure I would have called Denice. I would have called my brother, I'm sure. Beyond that, I don't recall.
Q: Do you recall anything of the substance of your conversation with Denice?
A: No, I do not. It would have been about that I'm at the office and I'm gonna stay here and I'm gonna just be there and help out.
Q: Do you remember having any conversations with anybody regarding Mr. Simpson being put in handcuffs while you were there at the office?
MS. LEVINE: That day?
MR. KELLY: That day.
THE WITNESS: I don't recall that.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did you open any files while you were in Mr. Simpson's office?
A: No.
Q: Did you look at anything on his or read anything that was on his desk when you were in Mr. Simpson's office?
A: No. I don't believe there was anything on his desk that day.
Q: Did you look in any of his drawers?
A: No.
Q: Did you look in any file cabinets?
A: No.
Q: Did you remove anything from Mr. Simpson's office
A: No.
Q: that day?
A: No.
Q: What did you do from midday till 6:00 p.m. that night in Mr. Simpson's office other than make four or five phone calls?
A: I was answering the phone mostly. There was a lot of telephone calls coming in from his friends, and I was answering those phone calls.
Q: Were you answering the calls that initially rang on the phone line, or was Cathy?
A: We both were.
Q: Could you tell me who, if anybody, you specifically remember calling that day who you spoke to?
A: Sure. I remember Marcus Allen calling several times, as I had told you previously.
Q: Sorry. You didn't tell me several times he had called previously.
A: Oh, I think he called two times or maybe even three.
Q: Do you recall You related the substance of one conversation you had with Marcus Allen to me. Do you remember the reason he had called two or three times?
A: I think that the second time he asked "Well, do you know anything yet" or "What's going on," that type of inquiry.
Q: And what about the third time he called?
A: I think it would have been the same thing. If he did call three. It could have been two. It could have been three.
Q: Does Mr. Simpson have a TV in his office?
A: Yes.
Q: Does that have cable?
A: I believe so.
Q: Did you have it on while you were in his office?
A: Yes.
Q: You were watching the news reports the entire time?
A: Yes.
Q: What did you tell Marcus Allen you had learned when he called the second time?
A: That I don't recall. I don't think I learned anything at that point.
Q: Did you tell him you had seen Simpson in handcuffs at his own residence?
A: That I don't recall. I do know I said he's down at I would I can't recall what I said, but I'm sure I would have said he's down at Parker Center.
Q: Did you say why he was down at Parker Center?
A: No.
Q: Do you recall any reaction to Marcus Allen of Marcus Allen to that?
A: No.
Q: Did you have any substantive conversation with Marcus Allen regarding Mr. Simpson's possible involvement in Nicole's death?
A: No. I think that was the only time I spoke with him on the telephone, was that first day.
Q: There was no discussion of Mr. Simpson possibly being involved in any way in Nicole's death?
A: I don't believe I ever had that conversation.
Q: And you had already seen Mr. Simpson in handcuffs at his residence?
A: Yes.
Q: And you knew he had gone down to Parker Center?
A: Yes.
Q: And you knew he was with Howard Weitzman, who you knew was a criminal lawyer, was he not?
A: Yes.
Q: And Mr. Weitzman had represented Mr. Simpson in '89 when he had pled guilty to spousal battery, had he not?
A: Incorrect.
MR. VAN SICKLEN: He did not plead guilty.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: He pleaded no contest to spousal battery in 1989?
A: Correct.
Q: Who else did you speak to besides Marcus Allen?
A: That's the only one that comes to mind. There were a hundred calls or more that day. That's the only one that comes to mind. Oh, excuse me. I think I spoke to Reggie McKenzie from Seattle.
Q: Do you recall the substance of that conversation?
A: No, I do not.
Q: Do you recall having any discussions with anybody between midday and 6:00 p.m. in Mr. Simpson's office regarding his possible involvement in Nicole's death?
A: No.
Q: Not once?
A: No. I'd have to look at phone records or something. I don't really recall who called.
Q: Did that ever cross your mind, Mr. Kardashian, that Mr. Simpson did that ever cross your mind between midday and 6:00 p.m. that day, that Mr. Simpson was in any way involved in Nicole's death?
A: No, it did not.
Q: Did anybody ever When did you leave Mr. Simpson's office?
A: About 6:00 or 6:30.
Q: Prior to your leaving there, did you hear or see any news reports about blood found in Mr. Simpson's driveway?
A: I really don't know. I don't know what was on that day. Everything was such a blur. I can't say if I learned of blood in the driveway that day or a subsequent day.
Q: What was the purpose of you having the TV on in Mr. Simpson's office all day?
A: To find out what happened to Nicole.
Q: And were you paying attention?
A: Somewhat. I was on the phones, but we you know, we'd be watching for whatever we could find out. We didn't know what had happened at that time.
Q: And you have no recollection of any news reports about blood found in the driveway that day?
MS. LEVINE: I don't think that was his testimony. It was that he couldn't recall if he learned it that day, not that he had no recollection of such a news report.
MR. KELLY: What I am asking him, does he have any recollection of seeing any news reports that day in that time period of blood found in Mr. Simpson's driveway.
THE WITNESS: No, I don't.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Do you have any recollection of any news reports that day between 12:00 and 6:00 p.m. of a bloody glove found behind Mr. Simpson's guesthouse?
A: I recall hearing that. I don't know if it was that day or not, but I recall hearing about it.
Q: Okay. Do you recall hearing anything on the news reports between midday and 6:00 p.m. that day of Mr. Simpson's Bronco being towed away as evidence?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. What do you recall hearing about that?
A: I just remember seeing the shot of them hoisting his Bronco and towing it away.
Q: Okay. And they had denied you entry to the premises when you arrived there that day also
A: Yes.
Q: did they not?
A: Yes.
Q: And it's still your testimony that as of 6:00 p.m. that day, you had never considered Mr. Simpson being involved in any way in Nicole's death?
A: That's correct.
Q: What, if anything, did you do come approximately 6:00 p.m. that day, June 13th?
A: I drove Mr. Simpson back to his residence.
Q: When did Mr. Simpson arrive at the office?
A: I believe it was about 4:30 or 5:00.
Q: Who did he arrive with?
A: Mr. Weitzman and Mr. Taft.
Q: Did they had they made any calls to you at the office prior to their arrival there?
A: I can't be sure. I think they could have called and said, "We're on our way back," but I don't know for sure.
Q: Were you surprised when Mr. Simpson showed up at the office?
A: No. We were expecting him to come back.
Q: And what, if anything, did you say to Mr. Simpson at that time when he arrived at the office?
A: I can't recall. Just we were just watching the news, trying to find out what happened. I you know, I'm sure I would have given him some type of support, but I can't recall what I had said at that time.
Q: Do you have any recollection of why Mr. Simpson might have needed some support at that time?
A: Oh, he was yeah. He was in shock. He was distraught. He wasn't I could see by his demeanor that he wasn't the type of person that I knew before.
Q: That you knew before.
A: Yes.
Q: Did you see him cry at all?
MS. LEVINE: Then?
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: At that time.
A: No.
Q: Okay. Did he talk about Nicole at all during that time period?
MS. LEVINE: If we could have a moment. There is something that came up before lunch. I want to make sure who was present, where we're talking about. If we could go off the record for a minute.
MR. KELLY: Sure.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 2:11.
(Discussion held between the witness and counsel outside the hearing of the reporter.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record now, and the time is approximately 2:14.
MS. LEVINE: Do you want to read back the question?
MR. KELLY: Yes, please.
(Pending question read as follows:
"Q. Okay. Did he talk about Nicole at all during that time period?")
THE WITNESS: Yes, he did.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Do you recall what he said, if anything?
A: Basically, "I can't believe she's gone. Poor Nicole," a couple statements like that.
Q: To the best of your knowledge, did he call the Browns at any time while he was there at the office?
A: I don't know.
Q: Do you know whether he called any of Nicole's friends while he was there at the office?
A: I don't know.
Q: And you don't recall seeing him cry at all during that time at the office?
A: No.
Q: But he was watching TV?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you recall any comments he made as he was watching TV during that time period?
A: Other than what I said, he would repeat that several times.
Q: Regarding
A: Nicole.
Q: Nicole?
A: Yes.
Q: Did he comment as to any of the telecasts being shown on TV?
A: I'm sorry. In what way?
Q: Well, after say as he would see news report or hear a reporter comment, did he make any comment about what had just been on the air?
A: I don't recall that.
Q: Do you recall Mr. Simpson saying something to the effect, "I can't believe they're trying to pin this s--- on me"?
A: I don't recall that, no.
Q: Do you recall him saying anything in words to that effect?
A: No, I don't.
Q: Did he indicate to you at any time that he was viewed as a suspect by the LAPD for these homicides?
MS. LEVINE: Objection. I think that may call for a privileged communication at that time.
MR. KELLY: Is it your position that the first time at the office this we've already discussed this, as to some of the things Mr. Simpson said at this point.
MS. LEVINE: That's right, and I believe the conversation breaks down, and there may have been a point, from what I understand from Mr. Van Sicklen, and this needs to be ironed out, where this conversation between talked about before lunch, Mr. Weitzman is there and Mr. Taft, where there is some discussions that occur.
I don's think this conversation that we have just talked about Nicole is privileged, but when you talk about a conversation such as you were just alluding to it may have come into some privileged information on communications between Mr.: Simpson and his lawyers that were present.
MR. KELLY: Well, the only way I can imagine we iron that out is to have the question answered first.
MR. VAN SICKLEN: But the question was, did you ever find out that he thought he was a suspect.
MR. KELLY: No. Did Mr. Simpson himself indicate to Mr. Kardashian whether he was viewed as a suspect by the LAPD at that time.
MR. VAN SICKLEN: That day in the office?
MR. KELLY: That day, that time, in the office.
MS. LEVINE: Is that okay.
MR. VAN SICKLEN: Sure.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: He never indicated that to you?
A: He never said that to me, no.
Q: Did he indicate to you that he had answered questions posed to him by the LAPD down at Parker Center?
MR. VAN SICKLEN: Well
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: At that time did he indicate to you?
MR. VAN SICKLEN: Without waiving any privilege go ahead.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did he indicate the substance of the questions put to him?
A: No.
Q: Did he indicate the substance of the of any statements he made to them?
A: No.
Q: Do you recall any other conversations you had with Mr. Simpson that day at that time in his office?
A: No, I do not.
Q: Did you see Mr. Simpson make any phone calls?
A: I don't recall. He could have. I just don't recall.
Q: Do you have any recollection of overhearing him talking on the telephone at all?
A: No, I don't.
Q: Do you recall hearing any conversations between he and Mr. Weitzman?
MS. LEVINE: That day in that place?
MR. KELLY: All these questions are directed towards that day and that time.
MS. LEVINE: In the office.
THE WITNESS: You know, he could have. I just don't know. Everybody was talking, so I don't know you know, what was going on really.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: And you were there with him from approximately 4:30 to 6:00 p.m.?
A: Yes.
Q: And everybody was talking?
A: Or watching television.
Q: And in this whole hour and a half period of time the only thing you can remember Mr. Simpson saying is, "Poor Nicole, I can't believe she's gone"?
A: Right.
Q: Can't remember anything else?
A: I'm sure he said a lot more, but I, you know, I don't know. I was in and out, talking to Cathy, talking to Howard, talking to Skip. We were watching television.
Q: You had seen Mr. Simpson in handcuffs that day.
A: Yes.
Q: You had seen his Bronco get towed away.
A: Yes.
MR. VAN SICKLEN: We have already established this.
MR. KELLY: I know we have.
MR. VAN SICKLEN: Well let's save it for somebody that gets a vote.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: What happened next at 6:00 o'clock?
A: I took him home.
Q: Mr. Simpson.
A: Yes.
Q: In your in the same car that you had arrived in, you took home?
A: Yes.
Q: You went to Rockingham?
A: Yes.
Q: Who else left with you?
MS. LEVINE: In his car?
MR. KELLY: In his car.
THE WITNESS: It was just Mr. Simpson and myself.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did you have any conversation between your office and Rockingham?
A: I'm sure we did. I can't recall what he said, but it was it was I mean, it was just emotions, but I really don't know what we talked about.
Q: What type of emotions?
A: Just, again, he Mr. Simpson reiterates things over and over, and he would talk about Nicole: "I can't believe she's dead."
Q: So it's your testimony all you recall him talking about this entire day is Nicole.
A: Yeah. I don't know what else he would have talked about. He just a lot of the time, believe it or not, was silent. I was only five minutes from his office to his home.
Q: And with your car, was there a valet person who brought your car up to you when it was time to go?
A: You know, there usually is. Sometimes we would go get it, but I believe in this instance the valet brought it up. I can't be sure.
Q: Did you open the trunk when your car was brought up that day?
A: No.
Q: Had you opened your trunk when you first arrived at your office that day?
A: I'm sorry. In the morning?
Q: No. After you had left Rockingham and went there at midday.
MS. LEVINE: At Mr. Simpson's office?
MR. KELLY: Yeah.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: What did you do when you arrived back at Simpson's that evening at approximately 6:00 p.m.
A: I pulled the car in the driveway and
Q: Which gate did you pull in?
A: In the Rockingham. And we walked in, and Detective Lange was still there, and I believe some other LAPD who I don't know were there.
Q: Were there many media people around the house when you arrived there at that time?
A: Yes.
Q: In general terms, a large number of them?
A: I would say so, yes. Q: Satellite trucks?
A: I don't I don't recall if they he was up there. They could have been.
Q: And I'm sorry. You pulled the car in the Rockingham gate?
A: Yes.
Q: And what did you do after you stopped the car?
A: We got off and went in the front door.
Q: Did you remove anything from the car when you arrived there?
A: No.
Q: Did Mr. Simpson take anything with him when he left the office that day?
A: To my recollection, no.
Q: No briefcase?
A: No, I don't believe he had
Q: No large envelope?
A: I don't think so, no.
Q: Who was at Rockingham when you arrived back there at that time?
A: Well, Detective Lange
Q: Did you have any conversation with Detective Lange?
MS. LEVINE: At that time?
MR. KELLY: At that time.
THE WITNESS: I don't think I did. No, I don't believe so.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did you form an impression as to why he was there at that point?
A: Well, we knew they were searching the house.
Q: Did you know okay. Did you know that they were executing a search warrant that day?
A: Yes.
Q: At what time did you find that out?
A: I don't know.
Q: Did you know that at any point of time when you were in Mr. Simpson's office during that afternoon?
A: I'm sure I learned it from the news, watching it on television.
Q: And there was no time during that day while you were in his office that you considered Mr. Simpson a suspect in the death of Nicole?
A: No.
Q: What did you see Detective Lange doing when you arrive back at Rockingham?
A: I believe he was up in Mr. Simpson's bedroom, if I'm not mistaken, and we walked upstairs and he was up there.
Q: Do you recall walking into Mr. Simpson's bedroom?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you look around up there?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you make do you have any independent recollection of what you observed that day in his bedroom?
A: I remember there was a I don't know if it was at I don't know if it was that day or not. I was going to say I think his black duffel bag was on the floor in his bedroom, but I could be wrong, but I think I saw it there that day.
Q: Is that the one he carried in over his shoulder?
A: Yes.
Q: He has a white rug in his room, does he not?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you recall seeing any socks on that rug when you walked in there at that time?
A: No. No.
Q: Was anybody in that bedroom other than you when you walked in there at that time?
A: I believe there were a few police officers in the bedroom.
Q: Do you know what, if anything, they were doing at that time?
A: When I walked in, everybody was pretty much standing around, I believe. Just standing. When we walked in, they were standing there.
Q: You didn't see them dusting for fingerprints?
A: At this time, no. I think they were pretty much finished with everything they were doing.
Q: Was there any conversation in the master bedroom when you walked in there?
A: Yes.
Q: What, if anything, went on?
A: Well, Mr. Taft and Mr. Weitzman also arrived, and I don't know if it was right before us or right after us, but they were in the bedroom also.
And Detective Lange asked Mr. Simpson to show him the shoes he wore the night before, and Mr. Simpson went in his closet and he pulled out a pair of shoes and said, "These were the shoes I wore."
And Detective Lange said, "Do you mind if I take these with me" actually, Detective Lange looked at the soles, and he made some comment, "They look pretty clean," or something to that effect, and then he said, "Do you mind if I take these with me?"
Q: Do you recall specifically what Detective Lange said to Mr. Simpson about shoes?
A: Just "Show me the shoes you wore last night."
Q: Did he specify at what time the previous night he wanted the shoes Mr. Simpson had been wearing?
A: I don't believe so.
Q: Did he say, "I want the shoes you wore to the recital"?
A: I don't think so.
Q: Do you recall him saying, "Can I see the shoes you were wearing when you were out chipping golf balls in your front yard?"
A: No, he did not say that.
Q: Did he say, "Could I see the shoes that you wore when you got in the car to the airport?"
A: No. I think it was pretty general, "May I see the shoes you were wearing last night?"
Q: Could you describe the shoes you saw Mr. Simpson come out of the closets with?
A: Yes. They were white Reebok tennis shoes.
Q: What, if anything Did Mr. Simpson say anything when he handed him the shoes?
A: I all I recall is, "Here they are" or "These are the shoes I wore," or something to that effect.
Q: What, if anything, happened next up there?
A: I think Detective Lange said, "We're done" or... I think he said 'That's it. We'll be out of here in a minute or two," something to that effect.
Q: Have you ever seen a search warrant?
MS. LEVINE: Except for
MR. KELLY: Just in general.
MR. VAN SICKLEN: A search warrant.
MR. KELLY: A search warrant.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did you see one that day?
A: No.
Q: Are you familiar with the procedure involved upon completion of the execution of a search warrant?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever see any sort of receipt presented to Mr. Simpson or Mr. Weitzman or Mr. Taft that night upon the conclusion of that search?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever see Mr. Simpson sign any papers that night?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever see Mr. Weitzman sign any papers that night?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever see Mr. Taft sign any papers that night?
A: No.
Q: Did you see any of the police officers at Rockingham take anything out of that house other than that pair of shoes?
MS. LEVINE: That night?
MR. KELLY: That night.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Do you recall Detective Lange asking for the clothes Mr. Simpson had worn the night before?
A: You know what? I do recall something, but I don't know if I'm recalling it at that time or whether I learned of it subsequently.
Q: What do you recall, regardless of the time period?
A: If it was at that time, I recall that there was a conversation about, "What clothes did you wear last night?"
And Mr. Simpson said, "They're in the bathroom lying by the hamper."
Q: Hadn't Mr. Simpson flown to Chicago the night before?
A: Yeah.
Q: And when Mr. Simpson was staying up in that master bedroom at that time, was he still wearing what he had arrived home from Chicago in?
A: The night of the 13th when I took him back?
Q: Yeah.
A: Yes. Yes.
Q: And as far as you knew, none of his luggage had been unpacked yet, had it?
A: That's correct.
Q: What was your understanding of what time the night before Mr. Simpson had worn those clothes that were thrown in the bathroom?
MS. LEVINE: His understanding at that time?
MR. KELLY: Yeah, if he had one.
THE WITNESS: I just my understanding was, "What clothes did you wear last night," and that was it, and he had the clothes sitting there in his bathroom.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: So it was your understanding Mr. Simpson was indicating a pair of clothes that were not in the luggage that came back from Chicago.
A: That's correct.
Q: And they were not any of clothes that he had on at that time.
A: That's correct.
Q: So would it be fair to say he was indicating some clothes that had never gone to Chicago?
A: Correct.
Q: And did you see what, if anything, the police did when he indicated that those were the clothes he had been wearing?
A: I don't believe they did anything. They could have looked at them. I'm not sure. I know they never took them with them to my knowledge.
Q: Do you recall anybody even walking over to those clothes?
A: No, I don't recall.
Q: Do you recall anybody picking up any of that clothing?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Could you describe the clothing you observed?
A: I thought it was some type of dark pants, and that's all I saw. I don't know if there was a shirt there or not. I wasn't real close to them, but I just recall they were some type of dark pant.
Q: And that was in the bathroom?
A: Yes.
Q: Does Mr. Simpson have a Jacuzzi in his bathroom?
A: I think he does. He's got a big tub. I don't know if it's Jacuzzi or not.
Q: Do you recall where those clothes were relative to the tub?
A: Yes. They were as you they were in the corner right across from the shower. They were on the I don't know how you describe it. As you
Q: As you stand Strike that. As you stand in the doorway from the bedroom facing into the bathroom
A: Yes.
Q: where would they have been located?
A: Straight ahead and on your left.
Q: Straight ahead and to the left of a particular fixture?
A: Well, straight all the way in to the wall pretty much and on the left, and I don't know if there's a hamper there or the bathtub. I know the bathtub's there, and I think they were just laying next to the bathtub; or it could have been, if there's a hamper right on it, just right in that area.
Q: Have you seen Chris Darden's book since it came out?
A: Yes.
Q: Have you looked through the photos through that?
A: No.
Q: Have you ever seen a photograph anywhere depicting those clothes as you described them: To the left of the tub as you look in the bathroom that night?
MS. LEVINE: If I could have a moment, I think that calls for information if you are asking him if he has seen it problematic
MR. KELLY: Other than through the course of his own work product.
MS. LEVINE: In the course of representing Mr. Simpson in his
MR. KELLY: Yeah.
MS. LEVINE: Okay.
THE WITNESS: Sorry. You are going to have to repeat it.
MR. KELLY: If I could remember it, I'd repeat it.
MS. LEVINE: Have it reread.
MR. KELLY: Yes, please.
Actually, could we take a break for a minute? I just want to
MS. LEVINE: Yeah.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 2:32.
(Recess.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record now, and the time is approximately 2:51.
(Pending question read as follows:
"Q. Have you ever seen a photograph anywhere depicting those clothes as you described them: To the left of the tub as you look in the bathroom that night?")
MS. LEVINE: And then we said besides what he learned in his attorney client/work product
MR. KELLY: You can withdraw that part of it if you want.
MS. LEVINE: No, I'm not going to. I'll leave that in.
MR. KELLY: Okay.
THE WITNESS: Have I ever seen it other than what I learned?
MS. LEVINE: Yes.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: By the way, when you arrived at Rockingham that night from the San Vicente offices, did you bring that garment bag into the house?
A: No, I did not.
Q: Did it remain in your trunk?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Did you have any discussion with Mr. Simpson concerning that garment bag when you arrived at Rockingham?
A: No.
Q: Did you have any discussion with Mr. Simpson at any time that day regarding that garment bag?
A: No, I did not.
Q: After you had heard this discussion regarding the clothes Mr. Simpson had worn that night, what, if anything, happened next?
A: I believe Detective Lange left and if I'm not
Q: Did you see Detective Lange walking out with those shoes that he received from Mr. Simpson?
A: No, I don't know if I saw it as a result of television or if I saw it at the time. I can't recall.
Q: And it's in your best recollection is this was approximately 6:00 p.m.
A: Yes.
Q: that evening?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you see anybody carry anything out of the house other than those shoes?
A: I don't believe so, no.
Q: Did you see any blood on the foyer floor when you entered the house?
A: No, I did not.
Q: Did you see any evidence cards on the foyer floor when you entered the house?
A: I don't recall ever seeing any of those.
Q: You know what I am referring to, though?
A: Yes. I've seen them in pictures subsequent, but I don't think at that time there were any there.
Q: So to the best of your recollection, even when you arrived at Rockingham at around midday that day, those evidence cards were not in the driveway or anywhere to be seen?
A: To the best of my recollection, that's correct.
Q: What happened after Lange left and the other officers?
A: I believe we then went down into the his television room or living room it's not a living room. It's a den, television den and there were a few other people there, and we turned on the television to watch the news.
Q: Did Skip Taft remain in the house when you went back down to that room?
A: I'm almost sure he did. I believe so.
Q: What about Howard Weitzman?
A: I think Howard left.
Q: Who do you recall being in that room downstairs other than Skip Taft and yourself?
A: Cathy Randa, Kato, I think Joe Stellini, I think Neal Sloan, and I don't recall who else. There wasn't too many. Four or five people.
Q: Do you recall any other Simpson family members being there at that time?
A: At that time... Boy, I don't think they were there at that time. They could have been. I don't think they were, though.
Q: Do you remember seeing Arnelle there at that time?
A: I don't know. She I'm sure she was. I don't know. I don't recall seeing her.
Q: Okay. Do you recall seeing Jason at that time?
A: No.
Q: Do you know Shirley Simpson?
A: Now, yes, I do now.
Q: Do you recall her being there at that time that night?
A: No, not at that time.
Q: What how long did you remain in that room downstairs?
A: Till about 9:30.
Q: Did anybody else arrive there during that period of time than the people you first mentioned?
A: Well, I think perhaps the family came later, but again this knowledge is I don't think I recalled it at the time. I think it's just what I've learned since that time.
Q: Did you ever recall I'm sorry. Strike that.
Do you recall that night at any time observing a cut on Mr. Simpson's left middle finger?
A: Yes.
Q: Could you tell me the first time your attention was drawn to that cut on his left middle finger?
A: I don't know if I saw the cut that night or if I first saw it at his office that afternoon.
Q: Okay. What do you recall seeing with regard to that cut on his left middle finger?
A: I just recall seeing his knuckle being swollen and this cut down the middle of his knuckle basically.
Q: Was it notably swollen relative to his other fingers when you observed it?
A: Yes.
Q: And was the cut clearly visible?
A: Yes.
Q: And in layman's terms, did it appear to be a substantial cut to you?
A: Yes.
Q: Was it bleeding when you observed it?
A: No.
Q: Did you observe any sort of dressing or wrapping on it at that time?
A: I don't believe so, no.
Q: Did you ever see Mr. Simpson go to clean that cut that afternoon?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever see him go to clean it that night?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever see him put any sort of wrapping or dressing on it that afternoon or that night?
A: No.
Q: Do you remember any conversation you had with Mr. Simpson while sitting down in his TV room that evening?
A: No. There was just people around, just really everybody was kind of in shock and just sad and, you know, just commenting about, "How could this happen?" That type of conversation was what was going on at that time.
Q: What were they referring to, as you understood it, as to "How could this happen?"
A: How could Nicole be murdered.
Q: Any discussion regarding Mr. Simpson being handcuffed that day?
A: No. Not that I recall, no.
Q: Any discussion about Mr. Simpson going down to Parker Center that day?
A: No, he did not talk about it to my knowledge sitting around the house at that time.
Q: Any discussion about Mr. Simpson's Bronco being towed?
A: No.
Q: Any discussion regarding a glove found behind his guesthouse?
A: I don't recall. There could have been on that, but I don't recall that.
Q: By the way, didn't there come a time in the early evening on June 13 that you walked around behind the guesthouse?
A: No.
Q: Do you recall anybody walking behind Mr. Simpson's guesthouse on the evening of June 13, 1994?
A: Not no, I don't.
Q: Do you recall any conversation you had between 6:00 and 9:30 that evening with Mr. Simpson in his TV room downstairs?
A: No. As I say, since I had kinda been with him, even though I wasn't with him, but at the office, these other friends came by and they were sitting talking, and I was just sitting there basically.
Q: As of, say, 9:00 o'clock that night, you knew the police had completed executing the search warrant at the house, had you not?
A: Yes, I knew that.
Q: And you still knew they had towed the Bronco?
A: Yes.
Q: You noticed him handcuffed earlier?
A: Yes.
Q: Taken him down to Parker Center?
A: Yes.
Q: And did you have any indication or in your mind at that time was Mr. Simpson a suspect in the death of Nicole Simpson?
A: No.
Q: Did you hear By the way, where was Mr. Simpson sitting in the TV room that evening?
A: I believe he was sitting on the either on the couch facing his television sets, or there's two chairs facing south; he would have been in the chair closest to the couch.
Q: Is that a recliner, by the way?
A: No.
Q: No? Is there a ottoman that goes with that chair?
A: No.
Q: Do you recall, was Kato in that TV room when you went down there after the master bedroom that evening?
A: Kato was there sometime. I don't know if he was there when we walked downstairs. In fact, I'm pretty sure he wasn't because I had never met Kato before, and the first time I met him was in that room, and he just kind of stood off to the corner. So I would imagine he came in while we were sitting there.
Q: Do you recall any conversation between Mr. Simpson and Kato when he came into the room that evening?
A: No. I was introduced to Kato, and that was I mean, that was basically it. I just kinda just walked away and hung out with some of the other people. So I don't recall anything, no.
Q: Did you ever see Mr. Simpson leave the room at any time during that period that evening in the TV room?
A: I don't recall. He could have. He was pretty weary. He could have. He could have gone upstairs and come back. I don't recall. But I do know he left at about 9:30 and went upstairs.
Q: Do you recall any time prior to that when he was at out of the room at the same time as Kato Kaelin?
A: No. I wasn't really paying much attention to Kato. I didn't really know who he was.
Q: Did you hear any conversation between 6:00 and 9:30 that evening in Simpson's TV room as to where he had been the previous evening before going to Chicago?
A: I heard, and I don't know from whom, some something about the recital. I knew nothing about any of this, and I heard them discussing the recital.
Q: Other than that, any other conversation?
A: No.
Q: You can't recall any of the other conversation you heard for the three and a half hours that night?
A: I really don't know what I heard. I was very upset and distraught. I don't I really don't know what we talked about.
Q: Did you recall any comments made by Mr. Simpson while he was watching the news?
A: Yeah. I remember him saying again, "How did this happen," and some reference to Nicole, about "poor Nicole" or something to that effect.
Q: That's the only thing you remember?
A: I really don't remember much.
Q: You don't remember any comments about his car being towed?
A: No. I don't remember anything about his car at all.
Q: Or premises being searched?
A: He talked about the search, just, you know, that they were there and they're they searched his house or something, but he didn't go into any specific about what did they take or any of that.
Q: Mr. Kardashian, did it ever enter your mind at any time during that evening that Mr. Simpson was being considered even as implicated in Miss Simpson's murder the night before?
A: No.
Q: Never crossed your mind?
A: It did not.
Q: Okay. What happened at 9:30 that night, if anything, at Rockingham?
A: He said he was tired and wanted to go to bed.
Q: By the way, was Ron Shipp there at all this evening?
MS. LEVINE: That evening?
MR. KELLY: That evening.
THE WITNESS: My recollection is I don't I never remembered him being there, but then I learned later, obviously, from his testimony that he was there, but I don't really recall Ron Shipp being there.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: At all.
A: No. No.
Q: You indicated earlier that you there was a very noticeable swollen knuckle and cut on Mr. Simpson's left middle finger?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you ever ask him how it happened?
MS. LEVINE: At that evening?
MR. KELLY: That evening.
THE WITNESS: Yes, I believe I did.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. At what time did you ask him that?
A: Oh, I don't know.
Q: What
A: Again, I don't recall if it was in his office or at his home, so I don't know what time that transpired.
Q: Did he bring up the subject of his finger, or did you?
A: I think I did.
Q: What time did you find out, if ever, that day how Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman had been killed?
A: We didn't know who Ron Goldman was that first day, I don't believe.
Q: Okay. I didn't ask you that. I said, did there come a point in time that day you found out how Nicole Brown Simpson and one other person had been killed the night before?
A: I don't know if it was that day or the next day. I just don't know.
Q: Well, you heard you had been told that morning Nicole had been shot, had you not?
A: Yes.
Q: Is it your testimony that there was no time later that day, after watching TV all afternoon in Mr. Simpson's office and all night in his TV room in his house, that you never learned that they had died as a result of knife wounds?
A: I don't know if it was that day. Obviously I learned about it, but I don't know if it was that day or the next day.
Q: What did Mr. Simpson tell you about the cut on his finger?
A: He said he cut his finger in Chicago.
Q: That's all he said?
A: With a piece of glass.
Q: Did he say how it happened with a piece of glass?
A: No.
Q: Did you ask him how it came to be cut by a piece of glass?
A: I could have. I don't remember if I did or not. I could have. And I remember he and again, I don't know if it was at this time or what I've learned since. That's the problem. I can't I can't separate when I learned some of these things, so I don't know if I should say or not.
Q: You should say anything you can think of saying, Mr. Kardashian.
MS. LEVINE: Without violating Mr. Simpson's privilege.
MR. KELLY: It's all right with me if he violates it.
Q: Did he make any motion with his hand when he was telling you what happened to it?
A: I don't I don't recall.
Q: Did he hold it out to you while he was explaining what happened to it?
A: No, I don't think so.
Q: You said you were surprised when the handcuffs were put on Mr. Simpson that day at Rockingham?
A: Yes.
Q: Why were you surprised?
A: It at that point it never entered my mind that he would be a suspect, that he would be considered in any wrongdoing.
Q: Did it ever enter your mind?
MS. LEVINE: Ever in the history of mankind or ever on that day?
MR. KELLY: Ever in the history of Mr. Kardashian on June 13th or thereafter.
MS. LEVINE: Well, thereafter, I mean obviously something happened, so it's clear he's a suspect: He's arrested.
MR. KELLY: According to everybody in the world, he didn't even become a suspect after he was arrested, according to Mr. Kardashian.
MS. LEVINE: I don't think he was arrested on the 13th.
MR. KELLY: Well, Mr. Kardashian observed handcuffs being put on him, and it still didn't occur to Mr. Kardashian
MR.VAN SICKLEN: Why don't we ask him the question rather than just argue with each other.
MS. LEVINE: Obviously it occurs to him at some point: When he's been charged with a crime. So if you are asking about the 13th, he already answered that he didn't think of him as a suspect.
MR. KELLY: You know, Miss Levine, I think a lot of things would have been obvious, but they apparently weren't obvious to Mr. Kardashian, and I am just trying to get answers here, so we will keep going
MS. LEVINE: He's answered that question.
MR. KELLY: Excuse me?
MS. LEVINE: He answered that question about the 13th. If you are asking him at any time after that, he was arrested at a point after that so...
BY MR. KELLY: Q: How about prior to him being arrested, did it ever enter your mind that Mr. Simpson was a suspect?
MS. LEVINE: I will object that it calls for privileged information.
MR. KELLY: Are you putting
Q: Is there any time prior to midday June 14 that in your mind Mr. Simpson was a suspect in the murders of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman?
A: Yes.
Q: And at what point was that?
A: When we I guess Tuesday.
Q: At what point?
A: Tuesday morning sometime, Tuesday before noon.
Q: Okay. And was this at some sort of meeting?
A: Yes.
Q: And who was present at that meeting?
A: Mr. Taft, Mr. Shapiro, Mr. Simpson and myself.
Q: And could you tell me the substance of that those conversations?
MS. LEVINE: Objection. Calls for privileged information.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Prior to that meeting Tuesday Could you tell me what time that was Tuesday morning that those individuals met?
A: I believe it was 11:00, 12:00 o'clock, something like that.
Q: And how did you get to that meeting?
A: I drove my car.
Q: Where did you drive your car from?
A: Mr. Simpson's.
Q: Prior to that, what time did you leave Rockingham on that Monday night, the 13th?
A: 9:30.
Q: Did anybody leave with you?
A: I think most of the of his friends that were there left at that time, if I'm not mistaken.
Q: Was that after he went upstairs to his room?
A: Yes. I walked upstairs with him, and then I went home.
Q: And you never saw Ron Shipp at the house that night?
A: I'm you know, from what I've learned since, he was there, but I just don't remember.
Q: And do you recall observing Mr. Simpson's left middle finger that evening at all at Rockingham?
A: No. I didn't focus on it, no.
Q: And the only conversation you recall about that finger that day was when he told you he had cut it?
A: Yes.
Q: And you said that was a result of a question you posed to him?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: And why did you ask him what happened to his finger?
A: Well, it was obvious something had happened to his finger, so I asked him what happened.
Q: Why was it obvious?
A: Because it was swollen, and, you know, if you've seen the picture, it just didn't look like I mean, obviously it looked like something happened to his finger, so I asked him what happened.
Q: And did you actually make any effort to look at it more closely than make a casual observation of it?
A: No.
Q: Did you observe any other cuts on any other fingers of that left hand?
A: No, I did not.
Q: Any abrasions?
A: No.
Q: Was Mr. Simpson in any way, in your layman's observations, treating that hand or finger gingerly with his actions that day?
A: I don't I don't think so. There was nothing that he did. I don't believe so.
Q: Did you ever see that cut bleed at all?
A: No, I don't think so.
MR. KELLY: Now, if i can just take a minute.
(Pause in the deposition.)
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did You were present in court when Mr. Cochran gave his opening statement, weren't you, at the criminal trial?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Do you recall Mr. Cochran saying that Mr. Simpson had cut his hand prior to leaving for Chicago that evening?
MS. LEVINE: Objection. That calls for work product, things he did what's in the record is in the record.
MR. KELLY: Work product, the opening statement that was televised worldwide?
MS. LEVINE: It may be in the open record, but this is something Mr. Kardashian did in his activities as a lawyer on behalf of Mr. Simpson. He was present in court. You are not asking him that to ask him what Mr. Cochran said. You know what Mr. Cochran said.
MR. KELLY: I certainly do.
MS. LEVINE: You are asking him to go into some other area.
MR. KELLY: I am just asking him for his own reaction, not based on, you know, any work product. He has already testified as to a conversation he had with Mr. Simpson and Mr. Simpson's explanation of the cut.
MS. LEVINE: But his reaction to what happens in court as a lawyer for Mr. Simpson is completely protected by work product.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Were you surprised at all at the time Mr. Simpson told you how he cut his finger, as to his explanation?
A: No, I was not.
Q: Did you believe his explanation?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you find it plausible, his explanation?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you find his explanation consistent with the magnitude of the swelling and cut on the middle finger of that left hand?
A: I really didn't analyze anything other than I always believed what he said. I just believed him.
Q: Did Mr. Simpson ever indicate that he had obtained or suffered any cut prior or in addition to that cut he received in Chicago, as he told you?
MS. LEVINE: Objection. Calls for privileged information.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: At any time prior to the morning of June 14, 1994, did Mr. Simpson indicate to you at any time he had received any cut on his hand prior to leaving for Chicago the night of June 12, 1994?
A: On any time prior to June 14th?
Q: Yeah.
A: No.
Q: When you went home First of all, on your way home from Rockingham the night of June 13. Did you I just want to break for one minute.
(Pause in the deposition.)
MS. LEVINE: Are we off?
MR. KELLY: Did you just pick up what I...
Can we go off for a minute?
MR. PETROCELLI: I heard what you said, and that's fine.
MR. KELLY: Okay.
MR.VAN SICKLEN: Are you going off the record?
MR. PETROCELLI: No.
MR. KELLY: No, we're not going off the record.
Sorry. Can I hear the last question?
(Pending question read as follows:
"Q: When you went home First of all, on your way home from Rockingham the night of June 13, did you...")
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did you use your car phone on the way home, if you recall?
A: If anything, to call Denice, if I did, and tell her I was on my way home.
Q: Denice Halicki?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. When you arrived home, was Denice there?
A: Yes.
Q: Was anyone else there?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Prior to leaving the Rockingham residence, did you take anything out of your car?
A: No.
Q: Was the garment bag still in the trunk of your car from when you had first put it there the midday of June 13?
A: Yes.
Q: What, if anything, did you do with it at that time?
A: Nothing.
Q: What did you do when you got home?
A: I went in the house and talked to Denice a little while and went to bed.
Q: Could you tell me what, if anything, you spoke to Denice about?
A: Oh, I don't recall, but it would have been about, you know, the day's events.
Q: She knew you were with at Simpson's house and his office and/or his office all day, did she not?
A: Well, I don't know if she knew where I was. She knew I was going to his house during the day, and I could have called her from the office. I think I said I did, I'm sure, from his office, so she had a general idea where I was.
Q: Well, did she know you were also at Rockingham that evening?
A: I would have told her that when I got home. Whether she knew previous and I had told her, I don't I don't know.
Q: Did she indicate to you she had been watching the news that day?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you I assume you had some discussion about the day's events when you got home?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you have any discussions about Nicole at that time?
A: Yes.
Q: Could you tell me the general substance of those conversations you had about Nicole?
A: The general substance would have been what a tragedy and how horrible and just how we felt about Nicole.
Q: By the way, at that time had you heard of the name had you heard the name Ron Goldman yet?
A: No.
Q: When you arrived home and spoke to Denice, did you have any discussions regarding Mr. Simpson?
A: Oh, I'm sure we did.
Q: Could you tell me in general what the substance of those conversations regarding Mr. Simpson was?
A: It would have been his how shocked he seemed, how depressed he seemed and his general mental state.
Q: Any discussion about him possibly being a suspect in the murder of Nicole?
A: No.
Q: Were you and Denice the only two people in the world that night who didn't suspect Mr. Simpson had anything to do with Nicole and Ron Goldman's murders?
MS. LEVINE: Objection. That's silly.
MR. KELLY: Well, his testimony is silly.
MS. LEVINE: That's an absurd question. How would he know what everyone else in the world thought?
MR. PETROCELLI: What's your objection?
MR. VAN SICKLEN: The question is argumentative.
MS. LEVINE: Assumes facts not in evidence, no foundation, calls for speculation.
MR. PETROCELLI: And he can answer subject to those objections?
MS. LEVINE: I don't think he anybody could answer.
MR. PETROCELLI: That's
MR. VAN SICKLEN: That's an argumentative question.
MR. PETROCELLI: But a very good question.
MS. LEVINE: You know
MR. VAN SICKLEN: Save it, Dan, for somebody that counts.
MR. KELLY: Are you instructing him not to answer that question?
MS. LEVINE: I am instructing him not to answer that question.
MR. KELLY: Okay.
Q: Do you recall what time Did you call anybody, make any phone calls, after you got home that night?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Do you recall receiving any phone calls that night?
A: That I don't recall either.
Q: Do you recall what time you went to bed that night, approximately?
A: No. I would imagine 10:00, 10:30, right in there.
Q: Do you recall approximately when you got up the next day?
A: Well, I usually get up about 6:00 or 7:00, so I'm sure it would be about that time.
Q: At that time did you get any papers delivered to your home?
A: My newspaper, yes.
Q: L.A. Times?
A: Yes.
Q: Any other papers?
A: No.
Q: Do you recall reading the paper that morning?
A: I don't recall, but I read it every morning generally, so I'm sure I did.
Q: Okay. Do you recall flipping on the news that morning also?
A: I'm sure I did.
Q: Do you recall reading anything about Nicole's murder and/or Mr. Simpson in the papers that morning?
A: I'm sure I did, but I don't know what it said.
Q: Do you have any recollection of reading anything in the L.A. Times the next morning indicating that Mr. Simpson was a suspect in Nicole's murder?
A: I don't recall. If it was in there, I would have read it.
MR. KELLY: Can you read the last question back, question please, David.
(Question read.)
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Do you recall watching any news shows that morning indicating in any way that Mr. Simpson was a suspect in Nicole's murder?
A: Yeah, I watched the news shows. I don't know if they said that or not. That's where I'm having a problem. I mean, if the news said it, then I saw it.
Q: When do you recall them saying it?
A: No, I don't recall if they said it or not.
Q: In your own mind the next morning at any time prior to leaving your house, did you suspect Mr. Simpson in any way being involved in the murder of Nicole Brown Simpson?
A: I started to suspect that he was going to be a suspect at that time, Tuesday morning.
Q: And what was the basis for that suspicion?
A: I started thinking about some of the phone calls that were received at Rockingham, about
Q: Which phone calls were those?
A: From Roger King saying, "You need to get Mr. Shapiro," and I started to
Q: By the way, did you know Mr. Shapiro then?
A: No.
Q: Did Simpson know Mr. Shapiro? A: I don't know.
Q: Was it your impression that Shapiro had asked King to call Mr. Simpson?
A: No.
Q: Do you know how it came about that Mr. King called?
A: All I know is what I heard.
Q: What did you hear?
A: That Mr. Shapiro was at the House of Blues and he received a phone call from Mr. King saying that he has to represent Mr. Simpson and that Mr. King would pay for it.
Q: And when did you hear this?
A: I don't know. Sometime subsequent, from Mr. Shapiro.
Q: But I'm saying: As of the morning of June 14, what had you overheard the night before regarding Mr. Shapiro and Mr. King?
A: I Mr. King had called Mr. Simpson's residence five or six times, and Cathy Randa took the calls, and she kept telling us the substance, and she never put the call Mr. Simpson never spoke to him.
Q: What was the substance she kept telling you?
A: "You have to get Robert Shapiro. Here's his number. Call Robert Shapiro. You need Robert Shapiro."
Q: For what?
A: To represent you in this case.
Q: What case?
A: In a potential murder case, I guess. He just kept saying, "You got Howard Weitzman. You've gotta get Robert Shapiro."
Q: So as of the evening now of June 13, it was your understanding Mr. King was calling saying Mr. Shapiro was necessary to represent Mr. Simpson?
A: Correct.
Q: And can you think of any reason Mr. Simpson needed representation other than the murder of Nicole Brown Simpson and one other person as of the night of June 13
A: No.
Q: 1994?
A: No.
Q: So going back now and looking over your testimony, Mr. Kardashian, would it be fair to say that as of the evening of June 13, 1994,you considered Mr. Simpson a possible suspect in the murder of Nicole Brown Simpson?
MR. VAN SICKLEN: Did he consider that he was going to be considered a suspect?
MR. KELLY: No. I am asking him, in his mind did he consider Mr. Simpson a suspect in those murders.
MS. LEVINE: Do you understand the question?
THE WITNESS: Well, in my mind I did not at that time. I did not.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did you think anybody else considered Mr. Simpson a suspect at that time, the evening of June 13, 1994?
A: Oh, sure. Sure.
Q: Who What was your Who did you think suspected him in your mind?
A: Well, obviously the police did; they handcuffed him. But I didn't in my mind think that Mr. Simpson was a suspect at that time.
Q: Did Mr. Simpson say anything to you to indicate that he himself thought he was a suspect at that time?
A: No.
Q: Nothing.
A: Nothing.
Q: He didn't indicate any concern in terms of being ever implicated in the murders of Nicole Brown Simpson and one other?
A: No.
Q: Other than the phone calls from Mr. King regarding Mr. Shapiro, what else had happened the night before that indicated that Mr. Simpson may be a suspect in the murders of Nicole Brown Simpson and someone else?
A: Nothing other than, again, the and I think maybe it was Tuesday morning the news, just repetition on the news, and it seemed to have escalated from the day before. And I can't tell you what information I learned from the news, but it seemed to, you know, like a snowball, starting to escalate, and at that point I started to realize that perhaps
Q: As of Tuesday morning, were you aware of the fact that they had found size 12 bloody footprints at Bundy the night before?
A: I don't know.
Q: Did you realize that someone had left drops of blood leading back on the pathway onto Bundy on June 13, 1994?
MS. LEVINE: Did he realize that
MR. KELLY: They had been found on June 13.
MS. LEVINE: Did he realize that on June 14 in the morning?
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: On June 14 in the morning First of all, all these questions will relate to the morning of June 14, okay, prior to leaving the house?
A: Okay.
Q: Had you heard that they had found size 12 bloody footprints leading away from the bodies of Nicole Brown Simpson and a young man when they were found?
MS. LEVINE: Prior to the time he met with Mr. Shapiro and Mr.
MR. KELLY: Correct. Correct.
MS. LEVINE: That's fine.
MR. KELLY: You know, why don't we stop here, then, before starting this series of questions. Is there
Q: Why don't you answer the question first.
A: No.
Q: Had you Let me just keep going for a second.
Had you heard on the morning of June 14 that there had been drops of blood found to the left of footprints leading from the murder scene at 875 Bundy?
A: I can't recall if it was that day. I learned it sometime, but I don't know if it was that morning or not.
Q: Okay. When you heard that there were drops of blood leading from the murder scene at 875 Bundy, did it ever enter your mind or did you ever associate that with the cut on Mr. Simpson's middle finger on or before the morning of June 13, 1994?
MR.VAN SICKLEN: You haven't established that he knew it.
THE WITNESS: I don't think I knew it. I just don't think I knew it at that time.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Well, before you indicated you were not sure.
A: I'm not sure. I just don't think I knew
Q: I am asking you now if there ever came a time by the morning of June 14 you ever made that association?
A: No, I don't believe so.
Q: By the morning of June 14, had you ever given any thoughts of associating the cut on Mr. Simpson's left middle finger to that murder scene at 875 South Bundy?
A: No, I don't think so, not on that morning.
Q: As of the morning of June 14, had you heard that they had found a bloody glove behind the guesthouse at Mr. Simpson's house?
A: I think I heard that before the 14th.
MR. PETROCELLI: You have to change tape.
MR. KELLY: Okay.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the end of tape No. 2. The time is approximately 3:27, and we are off the record.
(Recess.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are on the record. The time is approximately 3:37. This is the beginning of tape No. 3.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Mr. Kardashian, what, if anything, did you do Tuesday morning, June 14, after you had breakfast and read the papers and watched a little bit of the news?
Did you make any phone calls that morning?
A: I'm sure I did make some business phone calls. I can't I don't recall, other than I neglected my business the day before, so I'm sure I made some New York business calls.
Q: Did you call Mr. Simpson at all that morning?
A: No, I did not.
Q: Did Mr. Simpson call you at all that morning?
A: No.
Q: Prior to you leaving Rockingham the night before, had you made any arrangements to pick him up the following day?
A: I don't believe so. I may have said, "I'll see you tomorrow," or something, but I don't think we had any formal arrangements.
Q: As of Tuesday morning June 14th, was that Louis Vuitton garment bag still in the trunk of your car?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: You had not taken it out when you got home the night before?
A: No, I did not.
Q: And you had not taken it out the next morning?
A: That's correct.
Q: Did you even check the trunk of your car to actually see if it was still in there?
A: Well, I took a different car to the Simpson residence Tuesday morning.
Q: Prior to leaving Tuesday morning for the Simpson residence, had you checked the trunk at all either that morning or the previous evening to see if that garment bag was still in there?
A: No. I totally forgot it was there.
Q: What car was that you had that the garment bag was in?
A: My Mercedes-Benz.
Q: What car Is that the car you normally take use?
A: I trade off, but basically that's the one I use a lot.
Q: Is that a leased car?
A: No.
Q: Owned?
A: Yes.
Q: Is it owned in a business name or you personally?
A: Personally.
Q: What car did you take to Rockingham Tuesday morning?
A: The Rolls-Royce.
Q: Is there a car phone in that car?
A: No, there is not.
Q: Did you have a cellular phone with you?
A: I that's why I'm hesitating. I can't recall if I did or not in the Rolls.
Q: You did own a cellular phone at that time, didn't you?
A: Yes. I can't recall if I brought it with me.
Q: Is there any particular reason you had not taken the garment bag into Rockingham when you arrived there the night before in your car?
A: I just totally forgot about it.
Q: Did Mr. Simpson totally forget about it?
A: We never discussed it.
Q: He never asked for it?
A: No.
Q: What time did you leave your residence for the Simpson residence Tuesday morning?
A: I think it was about 10:00 o'clock.
Q: Okay. And you had not spoken to Mr. Simpson prior to that time?
A: That's correct.
Q: He never called you?
A: No.
Q: You never called him?
A: No.
Q: You never stopped to call him on the way up?
A: No.
Q: You never had any way of calling him from the car as you headed up there?
A: If I had my car phone, I could have, but I just didn't call.
Q: How far a drive is it from your residence to the Rockingham residence?
A: About 10 minutes.
Q: And did you go to the Rockingham residence that morning?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: Did you go to did you park your car anywhere there?
A: Yes. I parked my car I always come up Ashford, and I pulled my car in the Ashford gate into his driveway.
Q: And what, if anything, did you do when you arrived there?
A: I well, if I may back up
Q: Yes, please do back up. Go ahead.
A: The when I pulled the Rolls Royce out of my garage, I realized that the garment bag was not with me, so either I or Denice opened the trunk to the Mercedes; we took the garment bag out and put it in the Rolls Royce.
Q: You don't remember who specifically did that?
A: No.
Q: Was Denice with you when you were driving up to Rockingham?
A: No, she was not.
Q: Had she walked you to the car as you were leaving that morning?
A: Yes.
Q: Were there any other bags in your trunk when you opened it to remove the garment bag?
A: No. In fact, I believe I put the garment bag in the back seat and not in the trunk of the Rolls-Royce.
Q: Was there any time that you opened that garment bag from the time you took it from Cathy Randa to the time you put it in the back seat of your Rolls Royce?
A: I'm sorry. I never opened the garment bag.
Q: I am asking you if you did or not.
A. Oh, no, I never did.
Q: Okay. Ever?
A. Ever.
Q: You were telling me what happened once you had arrived at Rockingham.
A: When I arrived at Rockingham, I got out of the Rolls; I took the garment bag inside and went up. He was in his bedroom. Went upstairs in his bedroom.
Q: And you carried the garment bag out of the Rolls up to his bedroom?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Was anybody else up in his bedroom?
A: Yeah. I believe Shirley and Benny were up there, and I
Q: Who let you in the house?
A: Oh, I don't know. I don't know.
Q: Do you recall, did you let yourself in?
A: I could have. A lot of times he leaves the doors open, so I could have just walked in or I really don't recall.
Q: Was he still asleep when you went up to his bedroom?
A: No.
Q: Was he still in bed?
A: I believe he was lying in bed, but he was definitely not asleep. I can't recall. I think he was lying in bed.
Q: Did he have the TV on?
A: I don't know. I would imagine so, but I don't know.
Q: Do you recall the news being on when you walked into his bedroom?
A: I really don't know.
Q: What for what purpose did you go to Rockingham that morning?
A: I went really to help him out or just to do whatever, you know, he wanted to do that day. I was really there just to support him.
Q: Okay. He didn't ask you to come up there.
A: No, he did not.
Q: He didn't ask you to bring the garment bag back.
A: No.
Q: You didn't go up there just to take the garment bag there.
A: No.
Q: What did you do with the garment bag after you took it up into his bedroom?
A: I brought it to him in his bedroom and I set it on the floor, and then I said, "You know, you can't stay here. There's all this press outside. You this is a zoo around here. You can't get any privacy. Why don't you come and stay at my house for a couple days, and then you could come back. It will all blow over by then, and you could return."
Q: What did he say?
A: He said, "That's a good idea."
Q: Was there a lot of media outside both
A: Yeah.
Q: the Rockingham gates at that point?
A: At that point there was a lot of satellite trucks and cameras, and there was there was a lot then.
Q: And what happened next?
A: He said, Well, I'll put a few things in my bag, and we'll go.
Q: Did you still see that or did you see that black duffle bag in the morning at any time?
A: I think so. I think it was still on the floor as you walk into his bedroom.
Q: And what did you see what he put some clothes into?
A: I... I did not. I was talking to Benny or Shirley, or somebody was in the bedroom; I think it was Benny, and
Q: Do you recall what you were talking to him about?
A: I remember talking to Benny about the sink, underneath the sink in his bathroom, how the pipe was taken off by the police.
Q: Did you have any understanding as to why that pipe had been taken off?
MS. LEVINE: At that time?
MR. KELLY: At that time.
THE WITNESS: Yeah. We knew they had searched the house, and we figured they were looking for evidence.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Do you know what type of evidence they might have been looking for at that time when you knew that pipe had been removed out of the sink?
A: I'm sure they were I mean, I didn't know for sure. I knew what I would think, but I didn't know what they
Q: That's what I am asking you: What you thought at that time they were looking for.
A: I would I think they were looking for either hair evidence or blood evidence.
Q: Okay. And at that time did you in any way associate the cut on Mr. Simpson's middle finger with the search for any blood evidence?
A: I I I didn't really think about that, but I just knew that figured that if they're going to take the drain out or the pipe, they're gonna that's what they'd be looking for.
Q: The next morning did you look in the bathroom where they had removed the pipe?
MS. LEVINE: The next morning or that morning?
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: The next morning, did you actually observe the pipe they had removed?
A: Yes.
Q: When you went into that bathroom. do you recall seeing that dark outfit the bathroom still?
MR.VAN SICKLEN: I think he said dark trousers.
MR. KELLY: Dark trousers.
THE WITNESS: I don't recall. I don't recall.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did Benny indicate to you why he thought they had remove the pipe from the sink?
A: No.
Q: What happened next?
A: O.J. asked if Benny could fix it, because I recall he turned on the sink to either wash up or shave or whatever and water was dripping on the floor. So we opened the cabinets, and we saw the pipe was there. It wasn't taken away. It was there, But it wasn't reconnected. So that's when Benny and I went in there, and O.J. went somewhere else to wash up, I guess, and he just asked if Benny could fix it.
Q: How long was Mr. Simpson gone before he came back in the room?
A: Well, he was doing I mean, he went to wash up; he went to put a few things in his bag, so we were like if you've seen his bedroom, we were all kind of mingled around from one bathroom to the other. The time that I didn't see him maybe was five, ten minutes, something like that.
Q: Was it your understanding the time you didn't see him he had showered and changed and come back in?
A: No, he had not showered at this time. He was just washing up, and then I believe at that time he had also put some underwear or whatever he put in his bag to take to my house.
Q: What bag did he pack to take to your house?
A: The I don't know if he packed the Louis Vuitton bag. I it was there, and I think he put some things in there, and the black duffel bag. Those were the two.
Q: The same two bags?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you ever see him open that Louis Vuitton bag?
A: No, I did not.
Q: Did you ever see him touch that bag?
A: Yes.
Q: In that room?
A: Yes.
Q: In what manner did he touch it?
A: Well, he picked it up, and what he did I mean, I just assumed he was gonna take whatever was in it out age and put in other stuff or just put stuff in. I never saw what he did with it. He just picked it up.
Q: Well, did you remain Did he pick You had put it on the floor of the master bedroom?
A: Yes.
Q: And were you in the master bedroom when he picked it up?
A: No. I was in the bathroom looking towards the bedroom, and I saw him pick it up, and then Benny said something, and I turned back to Benny.
Q: Was it your understanding that Mr. Simpson had left the master bedroom with that bag?
A: No. No. If anything, he would have gone in his closet or just left it there. I don't know what he did with it.
Q: You don't know whether he did anything with it other than
A: No. He could have done nothing with it. I don't know. Could have just moved it.
Q: Okay. Did You've seen the videos of that bag when you took it from Cathy Randa that day. Correct.
A: Yes.
Q: Would it be fair to say that it was packed and bulging that day?
A: It was it looked to be about the same. Yes, there was obviously things in it. I carried it to the car, so I know it was there was stuff in it.
Q: Okay. Did it have the same feel to it or same Strike that. The next time you saw it after Mr. Simpson had picked it up, did it have the same general appearance?
A: Yes.
Q: Same bulk?
A: Yes.
Q: And you have no idea whether he had even removed anything from it or not at that time?
A: No, I do not.
Q: And that's the bag that bag went back to your place at Rockingham that day.
A: No. It went back to my place, yes.
Q: I'm sorry. Okay.
A: Yes.
Q: And what bags did Mr. Simpson walk out of his bedroom with that morning of June 14?
A: He walked out with the black duffel bag.
Q: Is that the only bag he was carrying?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you ever see him open that bag?
A: It was open on the floor.
Q: Did you see him put anything in it?
A: Boy, I don't know. Not that I can recall, no. I'm sure he did, but I don't specifically remember.
Q: Was it open when you walked in there that morning?
A: Yes.
Q: Were any other bags removed from his bedroom that morning?
A: No.
Q: What about the Louis Vuitton bag?
A: I mean, the Louis Vuitton bag and the duffel bag, those two.
Q: Okay. Who carried the Louis Vuitton bag out?
A: I did.
Q: What happened after you walked out of the bedroom? Where did you go?
A: I put the Louis Vuitton bag in my car.
Q: What part of your car?
A: I can't remember if it was in the back seat or the trunk. I don't know for sure. I don't know. Probably the trunk, but I can't recall.
Q: And what about the black duffel bag?
A: He had that with him.
Q: Did he place that in your car?
A: Not at that time. He went out a different way because the media was there, and so he went out a back way.
Q: With the duffel bag?
A: Yes.
Q: Did he give you any bags other than the Louis Vuitton bag to put in your car?
A: No.
Q: Did you see anybody in the house after you had exited the master bedroom and gone downstairs?
A: Oh, I could have seen Shirley and Benny whoever was there, but I just walked outside and put the bag in my car and pulled out the driveway.
Q: Were you able to observe members of the media from the front door area of Mr. Simpson's house at that time?
A: Yeah, you there was a wall, but you could see their heads or you could see the trucks and the dishes and all that stuff, yes.
Q: And could you tell me the specific conversation you had with Mr. Simpson prior to leaving his house that morning?
A: Yes. I said, "Why don't you meet me. Go through Eric Watts' house," who was the back neighbor, "and meet me on the street. The press doesn't know who I am, and this way they won't follow me. And once leave and, you know, they wouldn't follow me, and I'll pick you up on the corner and we'll go to your office."
Q: That was your suggestion.
A: Yes.
Q: And what did he say?
A: "Fine."
Q: Had you ever gone through Simpson's and Watts' property that way before?
A: Yes.
Q: On more than one occasion?
A: Maybe once or twice.
Q: Do you remember why you would have occasion to enter or exit the premises that way?
A: It was I didn't I never entered or exited that way. I went would go through to go to the Watts' house and then come back, but I never would park in front of the Watts' house and come back and forth that way. It was just a known thorough fare basically for O.J. and his friends to go to Eric back and forth that way.
Q: And would it be fair to say that it was, in general terms, a relative mob scene out from of Rockingham at that time?
A: No question. Yes.
Q: And Mr. Simpson was able to avoid all detection from that mob of media out there by taking that back exit through Watts?
A: Yes.
Q: And did you pick him up in front of Watts' house then?
A: Yes.
Q: And is that on Bristol?
A: On Bristol, yes.
Q: And what, if anything, did he say, to you when he got in the car?
A: We were just smiling that no media followed us and just that it was you know, we were able to pull this off without any media seeing us.
Q: Did he seem satisfied with himself in being able to do that?
A: I guess.
Q: And what, if anything Did you have any further conversation in the car at that time?
A: No. It was just, "Let's go to the office."
Q: Okay. And did you?
A: Yes.
Q: And did you meet anybody there?
A: Mr. Taft.
Q: And did you have any conversation with him at that time?
MS. LEVINE: Objection. With whom?
MR. KELLY: Mr. Taft.
MR. VAN SICKLEN: Yes or no.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: And what was the substance of that conversation?
MR. VAN SICKLEN: I am going to leave it up to the witness. If he feels that it involved something of a legal nature, then I think he should invoke the privilege.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Mr. Taft wasn't your attorney, were you was he?
A: Was Mr. Taft my attorney?
Q: Your attorney.
A: No.
Q: Were you an attorney for Mr. Taft?
A: No.
Q: Had you been retained by Mr. Simpson for any reason at this point?
A: No.
Q: Could you tell me what the substance of the conversation you had with Mr. Taft at that time at the office was?
A: Sure.
Q: Okay.
A: Let's call Robert Shapiro.
Q: Short conversation?
A: Pretty much. I mean, that was the essence of it. All I know is we picked up the phone and called Shapiro.
Q: Did you have any other conversation with Simpson on the way to the office at that time?
A: No.
Q: None.
A: Well, we could have I'm sure we would have discussed, since it was calling Shapiro when we get to the office, we'll call Shapiro.
Q: And that was it.
A: Yeah.
Q: And did you call him when you got to the office?
A: Yes.
Q: Did Mr. Shapiro come right over?
A: Yes.
Q: Within how many minutes?
A: 15 to 30 minutes.
Q: Did you have any conversation with Mr. Shapiro when he first arrived?
MS. LEVINE: Can I have a minute? Can we go off the record?
MR. KELLY: Sure.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 3:58.
(Discussion held between the Witness and counsel outside the hearing of the reporter.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record now, and the time is approximately 4:01.
MS. LEVINE: Can you reread the question?
(Pending question read as follows:
"Q. Did you have any conversation with Mr. Shapiro when he first arrived?")
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. KELLY: Q: And what was the substance of that conversation?
A: It was just an introductory. I had never met him before. It was just introducing myself to him, and Taft had never met him either, and I think Simpson had met him once or twice somewhere else. I really don't know.
Q: And did was there a meeting subsequent to that initial introduction?
A: Yes, there was.
Q: And were you present during that?
A: No.
Q: At the time of the introduction, did you then leave?
A: I left the meeting.
Q: Did you leave Mr. Simpson's office?
A: No. The meeting was in Mr. Taft's office. They have adjoining doors, and I went into Mr. Simpson's office, and I made my business calls at his desk.
Q: And who remained in the office besides Simpson and Shapiro?
A: Mr. Taft.
Q: And you weren't present for any of those discussions?
A: That's correct.
Q: And when they were done meeting, did you have any further conversations , with Mr. Shapiro?
A: Yes.
Q: And what was the substance of that conversation?
A: Mr.: Shapiro said to me, I need your involvement. I need your help. You know a lot of things that would take me a lot of time to get up to speed on, and I need you to reactivate your license and help me with this case.
Q: When had you told him that you did not have an active license?
A: In the I think when I met him. I just said, "I'm one of the attorneys" or an attorney. However, I'm inactive. I'm doing my own businesses right now. And that's when he learned of it, because he didn't know who I was.
Q: Did I realize that. Did was Mr. Simpson present with you when you had this conversation with Mr. Shapiro afterwards about reactivating your license?
A: I don't know. I believe it was just Bob and I. I think Skip and O.J. were in Skip's office, if I'm not mistaken, but I can't be sure.
Q: How long were they in there, by the way?
MS. LEVINE: "They" being the three as opposed to the two?
MR. KELLY: Shapiro, Taft and Simpson.
THE WITNESS: I would say about an hour, maybe an hour and a half.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: And what happened next after you had this conversation with Shapiro about reactivating your license?
A: Mr. Shapiro left, and we had telephoned A.C. I believe O.J. did. I don't think I did. I think he did
Q: Could you speak up a little, Mr. Kardashian? It's hard it to hear you.
A: I'm sorry. Mr. Simpson telephoned Mr. Cowlings and 'cause Mr. Cowlings was to bring his children to my house, and he asked Mr. Cowlings, you know, when would he be up to my house, and Mr. Cowlings had indicated he hadn't left yet, but he would be there in about an hour, hour and a half, something to that effect.
Q: Okay. And after that phone call was made, what happened, after that?
A: Mr. Simpson either he or Mr. Taft called Hertz to find out about his golf clubs. I believe Mr. Simpson did, and got the individual, whose name I don't know, on the phone and asked him about here his golf clubs were.
Q: Did you see Mr. Simpson writing things down as he made that phone call?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Do you recall anything else Mr. Simpson said while he was on the phone?
A: No. No.
Q: Did he make any other phone calls after that?
MS. LEVINE: In that time period?
MR. KELLY: In that time period.
THE WITNESS: I don't think so.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: What happened next?
A: O.J. asked me if I would drive him to the airport to get his golf clubs and
Q: And what did you say?
A: And I said "Sure." He said, you know so we drove to
Q: Okay. Okay. Anything else before you left the office?
A: I don't think so.
Q: Did you say anything to Skip Taft when you were leaving?
A: I'm sure I don't recall, but I would imagine we told Skip where we were going, and then we would be at my house after that.
Q: Where did you tell Skip Taft you were going?
A: To the airport to get O.J.'s golf clubs.
Q: Did you hear Simpson say anything to Taft?
A: I again, I'm sure Simpson is the one who said it to him and not me, I would imagine, but I don't know for sure.
Q: Did Skip Taft display any reaction to the statement that you were going to the airport to get the golf clubs?
A: Not that I recall, no.
Q: Okay. What happened next?
A: We went to American Airlines. I think it was American
Q: You drove the Rolls-Royce?
A: Yes, drove the Rolls-Royce.
Q: You and Mr. Simpson?
A: Yes.
Q: Any conversation with Mr. Simpson on the way to the airport?
MS. LEVINE: Object. He can answer if there was a conversation, but at this point he has been asked to be part of the representation team, and the contents of conversation I think is privileged at this point.
MR. PETROCELLI: Why? Why is it privileged?
MS. LEVINE: Under an attorney-client privilege.
MR. PETROCELLI: Doesn't it depend on what they're talking about?
MS. LEVINE: Sure, it does depend on what they're talking about. If they're talking about the weather, obviously it's not privileged, but...
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Mr. Kardashian
Same caveat: That I'm not pursuing that does not mean that I agree with your position.
MS. LEVINE: Sure.
MR. KELLY: Okay, we'll take it up later.
MS. LEVINE: That's fine.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did you have any conversation on the way to the airport?
A: Yes.
Q: Could you refute to me any of the substance of that conversation you had on the way to the airport?
A: I really don't remember much of the conversation.
Q: Do you recall any part of the conversation being about Mr. Simpson playing golf?
A: No.
Q: Do you remember any part of the conversation being why Mr. Simpson needed his golf clubs?
A: No.
Q: Do you recall any part of the conversation being that Mr. Simpson had golf plans the next few days?
A: No.
Q: Any do you recall any part of the conversation being about Nicole?
MS. LEVINE: About the call?
MR. KELLY: No. Nicole.
MR. VAN SICKLEN: Nicole.
MS. LEVINE: I'm sorry.
THE WITNESS: I just don't remember. I could answer it. I don't recall.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: No recollection as to the substance of the conversation?
A: I don't know what we talked about.
Q: How long of a drive is it from Rockingham to the airport?
A: Well, we were at Skip's office.
Q: Yeah.
A: So
Q: How long a drive was it that morning when you went to the airport?
A: About 20 minutes.
Q: And you have no recollection of any of the conversation?
A: No, I do not.
Q: Could you describe Mr. Simpson's general demeanor during that drive to the airport?
A: He was very I just took it that he was pretty much in shock the whole week. He wasn't the way he was previously.
Q: I am asking: Specifically on that drive to the airport, could you describe his demeanor to me?
A: He was pensive. It was quiet. Which is unlike him.
Q: Do you recall him even speaking at all on the way
A: I
Q: Let me finish the question.
A: I'm sorry.
Q: Do you recall Mr. Simpson even speaking at all from the time you left the office till the time you arrived at the airport?
A: I don't know.
Q: And did you go to arrivals or departures of American Airlines?
A: Down below. I can't recall if it it would be arrivals, I believe, is down below.
Q: What, if anything, happened next?
A: We got out of the car
Q: Both of you?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you park curbside?
A: Yes.
Q: In the no parking zone?
A: Yes. And we went to the baggage there's a baggage claim window for luggage that's been left there. I don't know what it's called. And we went to that window and asked
Q: You say "we." Did you or did Mr. Simpson?
A: I believe I believe he did. I believe he did.
Q: Have you ever had a car towed before, Mr. Kardashian?
A: Yes.
Q: Ever have it towed at the airport?
A: No.
Q: Where did you have it towed from?
A: It's been years. On the street. I was parked illegally.
Q: Okay. Did you have any concern about parking curbside at American Airlines that morning
A: No.
Q: in your Rolls?
A: There was nobody around that morning. No.
Q: Empty out there?
A: Very.
Q: What happened next after you went to the window?
A: He asked where his golf clubs were or where the luggage would be from a certain flight number, and I remember the lady told us where it was, which was I don't recall, but it was the next carrousel over, the next section over, something like that, then we turned and we walked over there.
Q: And did you observe Mr. Simpson's golf clubs somewhere?
A: Yes.
Q: And where were they?
A: They were actually, an attendant was there and, if I'm not mistaken, he picked them up and Mr. Simpson then took them, and we put them in the trunk of my Rolls Royce.
Q: Did the attendant just pick them up and hand them to Mr. Simpson?
A: Yes.
Q: Did the attendant carry them any distance at all, or did he just turn around and hand them directly to Mr. Simpson?
A: My recollection is he just handed them to him.
Q: Did Mr. Simpson submit any claim check or sort of ticket to the attendant before taking the clubs?
A: No.
Q: Could you describe what the golf bag looked like at that point? Strike that question. You play golf, don't you?
A: Yes.
Q. Do you know what a travel bag is for a golf bag?
A: Yes.
Q: Was it in a travel bag for a golf bag at that time?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you recall what color that was?
A: Black.
Q: Do you recall any insignias or anything on it?
A: Yes.
Q: And what was that?
A: Swiss Army Knife. I believe it was red.
Q: And do you recall do you know whether it had a shoulder strap on that bag also?
A: I don't believe so. I think it had carrying straps, two hand straps (Indicating).
Q: And is that how Mr. Simpson carried it out of the airport?
A: I don't know if he did it that way or just (Indicating) bear-hugged it and carried it. I can't recall.
Q: Where did he place it in your car?
A: In my trunk.
Q: And what happened next?
A: We drove to my house.
Q: Directly?
A: Directly, yes.
Q: Had you done any other driving with Mr. Simpson that morning other than from Rockingham to the San Vicente office and then San Vicente to the airport?
A: I don't believe so. No, I don't think so.
Q: Any discussion of going anywhere other than to the office and then to the airport?
A: I don't think so. I think he just said, "Let's go get my golf clubs."
Q: And after he put them in the trunk, did you have any conversation with Mr. Simpson heading to your residence?
MR. VAN SICKEN: Non-privileged.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Non-privileged. Or privileged.
MR. VAN SICKLEN: Non-privileged.
THE. WITNESS: I don't recall.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: You don't recall any conversation whatsoever?
A: I'm sure there was conversation, but I don't know what it was about.
Q: Okay. And what happened after you arrived at your residence?
MS. LEVINE: Can we have a minute?
MR. KELLY: Yeah. Then can we just go till like a quarter of 5:00? I just want to finish this last stuff, and then we'll
THE WITNESS: Yeah.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 4:14.
(Discussion held between the witness and counsel outside the hearing of the reporter.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record now, and the time is approximately 4:16.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Just to be clear, Mr. Kardashian, I had asked you about any conversation between you and Mr. Simpson after leaving the airport, going back to your residence. Do you recall having any conversation whatsoever?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Any conversation.
A: Right. I'm sure we conversed, but I don't recall the subject matter at all.
Q: When you arrived back at your residence, what, if anything, did you do then?
A: His children were there, and he spent quite a bit of time with his children.
Q: When you first arrived there, were any bags taken out of the car?
A: Yes. Yes, they were.
Q: Did Mr. Simpson take any bags out of the car?
A: I don't know. He could have carried the black duffel bag, but I don't know.
Q: Do you did you remove any bags from the car?
A: I don't I don't recall.
Q: When was the next time after arriving at your residence that you saw that Louis Vuitton bag that you had put in the trunk of your car?
A: I would have seen it the next time in his in the room he was staying in.
Q: You didn't carry it up there?
A: No.
Q: You didn't take it out of the trunk?
A: No.
Q: Was it still full when you saw it up in his room?
A: It was it had been folded the whole time. Now it was laid flat on a couch that's in that room.
Q: Was it open when you observed it?
A: Yes.
Q: And when was the next time you saw the black duffel bag?
A: I saw that in that room also. Probably that night.
Q: He had carried that bag up there, that you observed?
A: I don't I really don't know if he did.
Q: And you indicated that you saw a black silk garment bag in that room also?
A: That was not that day. That was another day.
Q: After this?
A: Yes.
Q: You never saw that bag at all on the 14th, the black silk garment bag?
A: That's correct.
Q: And what about the little bag, one or two feet by one or two feet with the loop handles, did you see that bag at all on the 14th?
A: I don't recall seeing that on the 14th. I could have, but I don't recall seeing it.
Q: When was it Did you ever see Mr. Simpson's golf bag again after you pulled into your residence on June 14?
A: Yes.
Q: When was that?
A: I saw it every day.
Q: Well did you remove it
A: I saw it the next day.
Q: Did you take it out of your trunk that day when you arrived there?
A: Either I I think I did. Either I did or my housekeeper did, one of the two.
Q: And do you know where that golf bag was placed?
A: Yes. It was placed in my garage.
Q: Do you recall placing it in there yourself?
A: I don't recall, but my pattern is I would have probably placed it there myself.
Q: Did you leave it in that travel bag it was in?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you ever open that travel bag?
A: That day?
Q: First of all, that day.
A: No.
Q: Did you open it in any of the days following that?
A: Yes.
Q: What day?
A: Oh, I don't know. It would have been maybe a week after he was arrested. I don't know when, but after his arrest.
Q: Did you ever see Mr. Simpson touch that golf bag after you arrived at your residence that day?
A: Yes.
Q: When was that?
A: I don't know. It was either I think it was Wednesday evening.
Q: What, if anything, did you observe him do with the golf bag?
A: I saw him take a golf club out.
Q: Was the travel bag still on the bag?
A: Yes.
Q: You saw him open the travel bag
A: Yes.
Q: correct? Did you see him lift the golf bag out of the travel bag?
A: No.
Q: Just peeled the travel bag down?
A: Yes.
Q: And removed one club.
A: Yes.
Q: Do you know which club he removed?
A: No, I do not.
Q: What did he do with the club?
A: It was an iron.
Q: Okay.
A: He went for walk, and he had he was swinging the golf club.
Q: Did you walk out to the garage with him when he went to get the golf club?
A: Yes.
Q: Did he tell you he was going to the garage to get a golf club?
A: No. He no.
Q: No?
A: No.
Q: Were you having a conversation with him as he walked to the golf bag in the garage?
A: He said, ''I'm gonna go for a walk."
Q: And did he ask you to go with him?
A: No.
Q: Did he ask you to follow him to the garage?
A: No.
Q: Was there any reason you were walking with him to the garage?
A: Yes.
Q: What was that?
A: I said, "I'm not leaving you alone. I'm going with you."
Q: Had you not left him alone at all for those last days at your house?
A: He was not alone other than when he was in his bed.
Q: Why was that?
A: I He seemed very depressed, very he wasn't like the man knew.
Q: Did he talk about Nicole at all?
MS. LEVINE: Objection. That can call for privileged informational this point.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did you see him cry at all at anytime after he had arrived at your residence the morning of the 14th?
MS. LEVINE: Till?
MR. KELLY: Till
MS. LEVINE: Let's say Friday?
MR. KELLY: Say Friday.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: And when was that?
A: I believe it was Friday.
Q: And where was he when you saw him cry?
MS. LEVINE: The further we get into it, the more we get into privileged information, and so when we take these jumps, it's harder for me to keep up with you.
MR. KELLY: We haven't taken any jump. I am asking about one observation that has nothing to do with conversations or communications. I am asking him where he was on Friday, the 17th, when he saw him cry.
MS. LEVINE: Certainly, but you and I have all had clients at our offices or otherwise that have cried in response to certain comments and communications, and we need to make sure, because crying can be, as you put it in context, it can be a communicative action, so we need to make sure. And I know you're I am cognizant of your time problem, but I need to make sure what we're talking about before we get there.
MR. KELLY: I just asked where was
MS. LEVINE: I know
MR. KELLY: Mr. Simpson when he observed him.
MS. LEVINE: and that's what I need to find out. Excuse me for a minute.
MR. KELLY: Okay.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 4:25.
(Discussion held between the witness and counsel outside the hearing of the reporter.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record now, and the time is approximately 4:26.
MS. LEVINE: Objection. That calls for privileged information, attorney-client and attorney work product.
MR. KELLY: Okay.
Q: Did you had testified a little bit ago that you saw that Louis Vuitton bag opened flat and unzipped on a couch in Mr. Simpson's bedroom?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Did there come a time again that you saw that bag?
A: Every time I'd go in his room, I would see it.
Q: After June 17th, 1994, did you see it any time after that?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: And where was it?
A: In the same spot.
Q: And where was that same spot?
A: On the couch in my daughter's bedroom.
Q: And how long did it remain there for?
A: Well, I kept expecting the police to come and take it, and they never did. I left it there for about a month maybe.
Q: Did you ever call the police and tell them that it was there?
A: No. The police searched my house on the 17th. They saw it.
Q: Did they say anything to you about it?
A: No, sir.
Q: Why would you expect them to come back and get it?
A: He was arrested. I figured they'd want all of his clothes, all of his golf clubs. I figured they'd want everything. They never came again.
Q: Any particular reason you think they'd want his clothes?
A: I just figured if they're gonna arrest him, whatever he had, if he left, that they would want to see them.
Q: And what happened with that bag after approximately a month or so?
A: Cathy Randa came and picked it up and took it back to Rockingham, I guess.
Q: Were there any clothes sitting in it still when you saw it laying on the couch for that month?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you ever look inside that bag?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever touch that bag?
A: No, I don't think I ever touched it.
Q: It was Cathy Randa who came, and did you see her pick it up?
A: No. I was in court. I just had told Cathy, you know, "His bag is here. Nobody has come to claim it, so why don't you take it out of here."
Q: And was that the last time or at some point that you had seen it on the couch in your daughter's room, was that the last time you saw it?
A: Until I until we brought it into court.
Q: Well, did you see it recovered at Mr. Simpson's house?
A: I was the one who recovered it with the referee.
Q: Did you know where to look for it?
MS. LEVINE: Objection. Calls for privileged information.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Where did you locate it in Mr. Simpson's house?
A: In Mr. Simpson's closet.
Q: Was it hanging?
A: No.
Q: Was it folded?
A: Yes.
Q: Was it on a shelf?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you observe any other Louis Vuitton luggage on that shelf?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you observe other folded garment bags on that shelf?
A: Yes, I believe so.
Q: And how did you make a determination that the one you took out with the special master was the one he had had when he came back from Chicago on June 13?
MS. LEVINE: Objection. Calls for privileged information.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Are you certain that the one you removed with the special master on that time was the same one that he had returned from Chicago on June 13 with?
MS. LEVINE: Objection. Calls for privileged information.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: With the golf bag, when was the next time you saw it Strike that.
After Mr. Simpson went for a walk on the 15th with his golf club, did you see him return the club to the bag?
A: Yes.
Q: By the way, who went for that walk besides you and Mr. Simpson?
A: Mr. Cowlings.
Q: Did you hear any conversation between Mr. Simpson and Mr. Cowlings at that time?
A: No. I did not walk with them. I walked behind them.
Q: Without were you able to hear any of the substance of their conversation?
A: No. They were quite a ways in front of me.
Q: Was there any need for you to be there if he was with A.C. Cowlings at that time?
A: No.
Q: But you chose to follow them.
A: I went for a walk. I ate dinner. I was full. I went for a walk.
Q: And time-wise, how long did the walk last for?
A: Maybe half hour, 20 minutes.
Q: And you observed Mr. Simpson put the club back in the bag?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you observe him close the travel bag then after he put it back in?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you see him leave the garage then with you?
A: Yes, I think so.
Q: Was Mr. Cowlings there also when Mr. Simpson put the club away?
A: Yeah. Yes.
Q: Were you standing right there with the two of them when he put the club away?
A: I believe so. I think we were standing right in that area.
Q: Do you recall any conversation that took place at that time?
A: No, I do not.
Q: When was the next time you saw that golf bag after that day?
A: The next day.
Q: Did you ever see anybody open that golf bag again?
A: No.
Q: Do you know whether Mr. Simpson ever removed anything from that golf bag between or at any time after you arrived at the residence on June 14?
A: No.
Q: You don't know?
A: No, I don't know, no.
MR. KELLY: Okay. Just one second.
(Pause in the deposition.)
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: By the way, on June 17 do you recall reading a note at a press conference?
A: Yes.
Q: Had you been instructed by anybody to read that note?
A: No Mr. Shapiro.
Q: Mr. Shapiro told you to read that?
A: Yes.
Q: Did Mr. Simpson ever tell you to read that note?
A: No. Mr. Simpson he just said, "You'll know when it read it."
Q: Did he hand that to you?
A: Yes.
Q: Could you please tell me when you opened that note?
A: When the police arrived at my home.
Q: And how did you decide when was the right time to read it?
A: Mr. Shapiro told me to read it.
MR. KELLY: All right, I have no further questions. Just one minute.
Q: Are you familiar Well, you saw the Bruno Magli shoes in court, did you not?
A: No, I did not.
Q: Do you know what Bruno Magli shoes are?
A: I've seen a picture, but I don't...
Q: Do you ever recall seeing Mr. Simpson wear that type of shoe prior to June 12, 1994?
MR. VAN SICKLEN: Which type, John? We have established there were several types.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did you ever see him wearing any suede Bruno Magli dark suede Bruno Magli shoes prior to June 12, 1994?
A: I wouldn't have noticed.
Q: Did you ever see Mr. Simpson wearing brown leather gloves prior to June 12, 1994?
A: No. Maybe on television, but not when he was with me.
MR. KELLY: All right. I have no further questions.
MR. PETROCELLI: The deposition notice required this deposition to continue from day to day, so I would like to continue on Monday, and I am available to continue on Monday. I've been told by the witness and his lawyer that they are not available Monday, so as an accommodation I am prepared to continue this at the next earliest date. Which is when?
THE WITNESS: 13th or 14th, so I'll go make the call now if you like.
MS. LEVINE: And Mr.
I forget your name.
MR. BREWER: Brewer.
MS. LEVINE: Brewer would prefer the 14th, which is better for me.
We are just going to make sure that's fine with Mr. Kardashian. If that's better for you, that would be better all around.
Do we expect that it will conclude in one more day?
MR. PETROCELLI: I hope so, but I do not know.
So why don't we start 9:30 on May 14, then?
MS. LEVINE: Same place?
MR. PETROCELLI: Same place. Okay?
THE WITNESS: I will call and, if it's not acceptable, I'll let you know, but I will make the call right now.
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay. Thank you.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This concludes the deposition of Robert Kardashian, Volume I. The number of videotapes used was three. We are going off the record, and the time is approximately 4:36.
(ENDING TIME: 4:36 p.m.)
I DECLARE UNDER PENALTY OF PERJURY THAT THE FOREGOING IS TRUE AND CORRECT. SUBSCRIBED AT CALIFORNIA, THIS DAY OF 19_.
ROBERT G. KARDASHIAN