Preliminary Hearing - June 30, 1994

 04                                        )
 05                            PLAINTIFF,  )
 05                                        )
 06                 VS.                    )   VOLUME 1
 06                                        )
 07                                        )
 07 ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON,                )
 08   AKA O.J. SIMPSON,                    )
 08                                        )
 09                                        )
 09                            DEFENDANT.  )
 10 _______________________________________)
 13                 THURSDAY, JUNE 30, 1994
 16                              WILLIAM HODGMAN
 17                              DEPUTIES DISTRICT ATTORNEY
 19                              GERALD UELMEN
 20                              PRIVATELY RETAINED COUNSEL
 26                              ARNELLA I. SIMS, CSR #2896
 27                              ROSE FORBESS, CSR #4853
 27                              OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
 01                     EVIDENCE MOTIONS
 02                        I N D E X
 02                                                     VOIR
 04 MICHELE KESTLER         11     45
 11                          -O0O-
 14                     MOTION EXHIBITS
 18                      (none offered)
 01                 LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA
 02                 Thursday, June 30, 1994
 03                        9:10 A.M.
 04                          -O0O-
 06      THE COURT:  Good morning.
 07      MR. SHAPIRO:  Good morning, Your Honor.
 08      MS. CLARK:  Good morning, Your Honor.
 09      MR. HODGMAN:  Good morning, Your Honor.
 10      THE COURT:  Would counsel state their appearances?
 11           Well, I guess the defendant is not out yet.
 12      MR. SHAPIRO:  This is the quietest courtroom I've
 13 ever been in, Your Honor.
 14      THE COURT:  I don't know how long that will remain,
 15 but we'll see.
 16           All right.
 17           The record should reflect now that the
 18 defendant is present with counsel.
 19           You may be seated, if you wish, and would
 20 counsel state their appearances, for the record.
 21      MR. SHAPIRO:  Good morning, your Honor.   Robert L.
 22 Shapiro and Gerald Uelmen for Mr. Simpson, who is now
 23 present.
 24      THE COURT:  All right.
 25      MR. HODGMAN:  And good morning, Your Honor.
 26 William Hodgman for the people.
 27      MS. CLARK:  Marcia Clark for the people.   Good
 28 morning, Your Honor.
 01      THE COURT:  Good morning.
 02           Now, there are a number of matters on calendar
 03 today.   I think there is one matter that can be
 04 resolved in fairly short order, and that relates to the
 05 hair sample that the court did grant an order for a hair
 06 sample.
 07           The defense submitted an order to the court
 08 requesting to limit that hair sample to one hair.   I
 09 did have my clerk contact the District Attorney's office
 10 to determine whether they were in agreement with that
 11 order, and the indication was that they were not, and
 12 therefore I've done nothing with regard to that order to
 13 this point.
 14           Ms. Clark, how much hair do the people need?
 15      MS. CLARK:  Well, Your Honor, hair samples -- as
 16 I'm sure the defense must be aware -- in order to be
 17 effectively compared with an evidence sample recovered
 18 from a crime scene, has to be taken from each area of
 19 the suspect's head,  and that means that a minimum of
 20 five to ten hairs from each area, which usually amounts
 21 to about a hundred hairs.
 22           Any scientist, no matter how inexperienced, is
 23 aware of that fact.   You cannot do an effective
 24 comparison between a known standard and an evidence
 25 standard without that size of sample.
 26      THE COURT:  So you're asking for 100 hairs?
 27      MS. CLARK:  We're asking for as many hairs as the
 28 criminalist or expert determines is necessary to
 01 effectively compare the standard hairs from the head of
 02 the defendant with the hairs found at the crime scene.
 03           And I've never seen a court attempt to
 04 restrict that, because that is obviously a matter that a
 05 criminalist would have to determine based on what he can
 06 recover.
 07      THE COURT:  Mr. Shapiro.
 08      MR. SHAPIRO:  Your Honor, according to Dr. Henry
 09 Lee, our chief criminalist who is the head of the
 10 Department of Criminology in Connecticut, he tells us
 11 one to three hairs are sufficient.
 12           I think perhaps this may be an appropriate
 13 matter for the court to have a hearing on.
 14           I think 100 hairs is unduly invasive, makes
 15 the inventorying of the hairs a very, very difficult
 16 task, and certainly allows for the possibility of the
 17 comingling of samples, which could contaminate any test.
 18 So we would ask for a hearing on this.
 19           I've been practicing for a long time.   I have
 20 never, ever heard of such a request.
 21      THE COURT:  All right.
 22           This is what I'm prepared to do at this point
 23 in time:  that is to order, no more than 10 hairs at
 24 this point.
 25           If the prosecution at some point feels that
 26 they are in need of more hairs than the 10 that I'm
 27 going to allow at this point, then we will have that
 28 hearing with experts, if necessary.
 01           This is not a matter that the court has
 02 independent expert knowledge concerning,  so that's
 03 going to be the order at this point in time, subject to
 04 a further hearing with evidence, if necessary, from both
 05 sides for anything beyond 10 hairs.
 06      MS. CLARK:  Your Honor, I don't think that counsel
 07 has conferred with Mr. Lee concerning the nature of the
 08 tests involved.   If Mr. Lee is -- and if Mr. Lee has
 09 informed counsel that only one to three hairs are needed
 10 for microscopic comparison, then he has misinformed
 11 counsel, and I can state that categorically.
 12           I'm very surprised to hear Mr. Shapiro has
 13 never heard of the number of hairs I have just indicated
 14 to the court being required before, because that is a
 15 standard thing.   When a microscopic analysis is
 16 endeavored, it is required that you have standards from
 17 every area of the head, 10 hairs per area.   That's a
 18 standard.
 19           I'm not talking about anything unusual here,
 20 and what Mr. Lee is talking about --
 21      THE COURT:  Ms. Clark  --
 22      MS. CLARK:  -- Excuse me, is P.C.R. work.   We're
 23 talking about comparison for microscopic as well.
 24 We're not just talking about P.C.R. only.
 25      THE COURT:  At this point you're of the opinion,
 26 and it may indeed be the correct conclusion, that you're
 27 going to need more than that.
 28           The bottom line is that if, in fact, you do
 01 need more than that, you are going to have to produce an
 02 expert to justify that to the court.   And if indeed
 03 that justification is made, I will sign the appropriate
 04 order.
 05      MS. CLARK:  Thank you, Your Honor.   We will
 06 present that testimony today.
 07      THE COURT:  Today?
 08      MS. CLARK:  Yes.
 09      THE COURT:  Very well.
 10      MS. CLARK:  Thank you very much.
 11      THE COURT:  Okay.
 12           Now --
 13      MR. SHAPIRO:  Your Honor, excuse me.
 14      THE COURT:  Yes.
 15      MR. SHAPIRO:  On the matter of hair, before you
 16 leave that issue, we do not have an indication as to how
 17 many follicles or shafts were found that the people are
 18 going to use for a point of comparison.
 19           May we ask the court to make such inquiry so
 20 we may have knowledge of that now?
 21      THE COURT:  Yes.
 22           Ms. Clark, do you know the answer to that
 23 question at this point?
 24      MS. CLARK:  I -- I was told just this morning, and
 25 I cannot recall -- I'm not going to make a
 26 representation.
 27           We have an expert here who can tell the court
 28 precisely how many follicles and how many shafts there
 01 are.   I'd rather let them say.
 02      THE COURT:  All right.
 03           Now, you indicate you do have an expert
 04 here.   Do you want to proceed on this issue of the
 05 number of hairs right now, or would you prefer to do
 06 that some time later?    What is your preference?
 07      MS. CLARK:  Well, Your Honor, as I understand it,
 08 the court had required us to proceed this morning on the
 09 issue of the blood split that was requested.
 10      THE COURT:  Yes.
 11      MS. CLARK:  So the expert who is going to testify
 12 to that matter can also address matters of the hair
 13 because she's the director of the crime lab for the
 14 Los Angeles Police Department.  So we can do it all at
 15 once.
 16      THE COURT:  That would be fine.
 17           Mr. Shapiro, I assume that you are prepared on
 18 the hair issue?
 19      MR. SHAPIRO:  Yes, I am, Your Honor, thank you.
 20      THE COURT:  All right.
 21           Then let's -- also then in conjunction with
 22 the determination of the number of hairs, there remains
 23 the determination of the sufficiency of certain blood
 24 samples for defense splits.
 25           Now, I also should mention that the court is
 26 in receipt of the defense motion that was filed to quash
 27 and traverse and to suppress certain evidence, and
 28 attached as an exhibit to the defense motion was a
 01 property report listing certain items of evidence, I
 02 think 1 through 34 denoted there.
 03           Is it correct that all of the scientific
 04 evidence about which we're speaking about splitting is
 05 included in those items 1 through 34?
 06      MR. UELMEN:  I don't believe so, Your Honor.   I
 07 believe there is scientific evidence related to items
 08 recovered at the scene of the homicide, 875 Bundy.
 09           The motion only goes to the evidence that was
 10 obtained at the home of Mr. Simpson.
 11      THE COURT:  All right.
 12           Does anyone have something to provide to the
 13 court with a listing of what specific items we're
 14 dealing with?
 15           If there's going to be different testimony
 16 concerning a particular item that was received in
 17 evidence and the court would ultimately be making orders
 18 perhaps differing or designating certain samples that
 19 would be split and certain samples that would not be
 20 split, it would certainly be helpful to the court to
 21 have some sort of a number, and the way it's denoted in
 22 the property report would make sense since that's the
 23 way all of you will be dealing with the evidence, and
 24 the criminalists as well.
 25           Is there a copy of the property report that
 26 could be made available just for the Court's use in
 27 keeping track of the items of evidence, scientific
 28 evidence that we're dealing with?
 01      MR. SHAPIRO:  We have extra copies, Your Honor.
 02      MS. CLARK:  I do, Your Honor.
 03      THE COURT:  If someone could hand that to my clerk,
 04 it would greatly assist me during this motion.
 05           All right.   Then I guess then we'll just
 06 commence with the testimony with regard to the splitting
 07 of the evidence at this point in time.
 08           Ms. Clark.
 09      MS. CLARK:  Thank you, Your Honor.
 10           The people will call Michele Kestler.
 11      THE COURT:  Please face the clerk and raise your
 12 right hand.
 13      THE CLERK:  You do solemnly swear the testimony you
 14 may give in the cause now pending before this court
 15 shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the
 16 truth, so help you God?
 17      THE WITNESS:  I do.
 19                     Michele Kestler,
 20 called as a witness by and on behalf of the People,
 21 having been duly sworn, was examined and testified as
 22 follows:
 23      THE CLERK:  Please be seated.
 24           State and spell your name for the record.
 25      THE WITNESS:  Michele Kestler.   M-i-c-h-e-l-e,
 26 K-e-s-t-l-e-r.
 27      THE COURT:  Thank you very much.
 28           You may inquire.
 01                    DIRECT EXAMINATION
 04      Q    Good morning, Ms. Kestler.
 05      A    Good morning.
 06      Q    Please tell us what you do for a living.
 07      A    I'm employed by the City of Los Angeles,
 08 Los Angeles Police Department, and I am the assistant
 09 laboratory director for the criminalistics laboratory.
 10      Q    Tell us what that means.   What are your
 11 duties?
 12      A    My duties include the managing and overseeing
 13 of several areas there, including the serology, D.N.A.
 14 lab, the trace unit and many of the other units that are
 15 there.
 16      Q    And what does that mean?   What exactly do you
 17 mean by that?
 18      A    Well, managing also means evaluating and
 19 implementing programs such as serology and D.N.A.,
 20 including evaluating crime scenes and managing task
 21 forces or large cases, and the employees that are doing
 22 the work.
 23      Q    So you direct the criminalists in what to do,
 24 basically?
 25      A    That's correct.
 26      Q    Were you once a criminalist yourself?
 27      A    Yes, I was.
 28      Q    Tell us what a criminalist is.
 01      A    A criminalist is one who collects, preserves
 02 and analyzes all types of physical evidence and
 03 testifies in court.
 04      Q    Now, does that mean it's somebody that goes
 05 out to a crime scene to collect evidence from a scene?
 06      A    Yes.
 07      Q    Of a scientific or evidentiary nature?
 08      A    That's correct.
 09      Q    Have you also performed trace evidence
 10 analysis or blood analysis?
 11      A    Blood, years ago and trace, years ago also,
 12 yes.
 13      Q    What kind of training did you receive in order
 14 to get your current position?
 15      A    The training in the current position is
 16 basically a management position, so I have taken several
 17 management classes.
 18           But the criminalist position, my training and
 19 background includes a master's degree of criminalistics
 20 from Cal State University, and then on the job training
 21 including courses at the F.B.I. laboratory and
 22 California Criminalistics Institute and various other
 23 private classes.
 24      Q    And how many years of training is that?
 25      A    Overall?
 26      Q    Overall.
 27      A    Master's degree is two years beyond your
 28 bachelor's.  I have probably about total of four
 01 years -- six years invested there.   And training in
 02 specialty classes, probably about another two years
 03 full-time training if you were to separate it out
 04 compared to on-the-job work.
 05      Q    Now, you have your master's in what?
 06      A    Criminalistics.
 07      Q    And criminalistics, the subject is defined as?
 08      A    Again, criminalistics is forensic science or
 09 all areas of evaluating forensic evidence.
 10      Q    Now, when you say "evaluating forensic
 11 evidence," Ms. Kestler, what does that mean in terms of
 12 your knowledgeability about which tests are available
 13 and appropriate to be performed on various types of
 14 evidence?
 15      A    One of the things that forensic experts must
 16 look at in any type of physical evidence, the first
 17 thing you do is you look at the evidence, you find
 18 out -- evaluate what you have, what it is, and then you
 19 proceed from there, and the type of testing you would
 20 like to do is going to be the most informative and the
 21 most conclusive, and you have to evaluate each piece of
 22 evidence for that purpose.
 23      Q    And are you qualified to do that?
 24      A    I believe I am, yes.
 25      Q    Does your training, in fact, qualify you to do
 26 that?
 27      A    Yes, it does.
 28      Q    Now, are you also trained and experienced in
 01 determining how much volume of sample is needed for each
 02 test that you determine is appropriate to be performed
 03 on each item of evidence?
 04      A    Yes.
 05      Q    Now, in this particular case, was it requested
 06 of you to determine whether certain items of evidence
 07 that were blood stains recovered from both the crime
 08 scene and the residence of the defendant as well as
 09 blood recovered from certain items found at the crime
 10 scene and the defendant's residence were sufficient in
 11 quality and quantity for subjecting to certain
 12 scientific tests?
 13      A    Yes.   We were asked to determine whether the
 14 evidence, our best evidence as to whether the evidence
 15 was appropriate for that.
 16      Q    And did you review also the number of tests, a
 17 variety of tests, a range of tests that could be
 18 performed on each item of evidence in order to gain the
 19 maximum possible competence in the results?
 20      A    Yes.   We reviewed the samples and made again
 21 our best estimate as to what could be done.   Of course,
 22 there's never any guarantee until the tests are actually
 23 done or you actually start working with the evidence to
 24 determine whether you're accurate in your estimate.
 25      Q    Now did you, in fact, then review much of the
 26 evidence that has been recovered in this case?
 27      A    Yes, most of it.
 28      Q    Tell us, first of all, for purposes of clarity
 01 which items were you unable to examine for the purpose
 02 of determining whether a blood split could be given to
 03 the defense?
 04      A    Okay.   I'd like to refer to my notes.
 05      Q    Please.
 06      A    Thank you.
 07           The items that were currently available to us
 08 were items number 61 through 71.
 09      Q    Do you have any knowledge, Ma'am, of which
 10 items those are?
 11      A    I have some references to what they are.   I
 12 don't have any absolute knowledge as to what they are or
 13 where they came from.   I know what they're listed as.
 14      Q    What are they listed as?
 15      A    Okay.   Item number 61, I believe, is a
 16 handgun.
 17      Q    A handgun?
 18      A    A handgun, yes.
 19      Q    Let me just ask you this.
 20           Item 61 through 71 --
 21      A    Um-hum.
 22      Q    -- Is it your belief based on the information
 23 you have at hand that none of those items contains blood
 24 evidence?
 25      A    I'm not sure because some of those items were
 26 recovered by detectives, I believe, and there's
 27 indicated  I know on there -- some sheets and
 28 pillowcases and a towel with a broken glass, so I have
 01 no idea at this time.
 02      Q    Is it your information that some of those
 03 items listed in 61 through 71 came from Chicago?
 04      A    That's what I presume based on what they
 05 are.   That's my -- assuming the detectives collected
 06 them because most everything else that is available to
 07 us was collected and booked by our criminalists.
 08      Q    As a matter of protocol, let me ask you
 09 something for purposes of clarity, Ms. Kestler.
 10           Where can evidence be booked?   Are there two
 11 places where they can go?
 12      A    Well, there's many areas.   The Los Angeles
 13 Police Department has several property rooms, including
 14 one that is adjacent to the crime laboratory and one
 15 that is in Parker Center, as well as one in many of the
 16 area stations.   And evidence can be booked at any one
 17 of those locations.
 18      Q    Now, the items that you have, in fact,
 19 evaluated for the purpose of this hearing, where were
 20 they?
 21      A    They are all booked at Piper Technical Center.
 22      Q    Which is adjacent to your laboratory?
 23      A    That's correct.
 24      Q    The items that you were not able to examine,
 25 where are they?
 26      A    They are booked and sealed in a vault at
 27 Parker Center.
 28      Q    So item 61 through 71, you were not able to
 01 look at.
 02      A    And also items 88 through 90.
 03      Q    What about items 73 through 81?
 04      A    73 through 81, we have those items but we just
 05 received those late Friday and have not been able to
 06 evaluate them.
 07           That is the coroner's evidence.   Some we
 08 evaluated.   The clothing we could not at this time.
 09      Q    The coroner would not release them to you
 10 until last Friday?
 11      A    That's correct.
 12      Q    Was that, if you know, in order to accommodate
 13 the defense in examining the evidence first?
 14      A    That's what we were told, yes.
 15      Q    And items 88 through 90?
 16      A    Those are booked at Parker Center, and I
 17 believe those are from Chicago, based on the property
 18 report.
 19      Q    Those were not looked at?
 20      A    No.
 21      Q    Items 91 through 93?
 22      A    Those were just recovered in conjunction with
 23 a search warrant that was served on 6/28, and they were
 24 booked late yesterday so we have not had a chance to
 25 review those items.
 26      Q    91 to 93, weren't those  --
 27      A    I'm sorry, 91 through 93 were recovered from a
 28 Bronco, but they were also just recovered yesterday.
 01 Sorry.
 02      Q    In other words, was other testing being
 03 performed on the Bronco?
 04      A    As far as I know it was, and then there was
 05 some indication that there was possibly another search
 06 for evidence that they didn't want to make in the
 07 beginning, and so they went back the second time to look
 08 at the vehicle.
 09      Q    But the vehicle remained in police custody?
 10      A    As far as I know, yes.
 11      MR. SHAPIRO:  Your Honor, may I suggest to the
 12 court that leading questions not be asked of this
 13 witness unless absolutely necessary?
 14      MS. CLARK:  Your Honor, this is an expert witness
 15 who has the reports in front of her.
 16      THE COURT:  Expert testimony is not subject to the
 17 leading question objection.
 18           However, at this point in time I don't believe
 19 she's actually giving you expert opinions.   She's
 20 rather giving information concerning the specific items
 21 of a background nature.
 22           The objection at this time is sustained.
 23           I mean, I ask you to please -- with regard to
 24 her expert testimony, obviously she can -- you can ask
 25 leading questions, but on these foundational matters, I
 26 would prefer if you could refrain from asking leading
 27 questions.
 28 \ \
 02      Q    Items 94 through 106 -- excuse me, 109, have
 03 you looked at those items yet?
 04      A    No.   Those were recovered pursuant to a
 05 search warrant on 6/28, and booked yesterday at Piper
 06 Technical Center, but we have not had a chance to review
 07 them for physical evidence.
 08      Q    And 110 through 113?
 09      A    Those were items booked yesterday also at
 10 Piper Technical Center, and those were items that were
 11 recovered from other items already booked, and they are
 12 trace evidence items.
 13      Q    Are those hairs that were recovered from
 14 something else?
 15      A    They are evidence including hairs and fibers
 16 recovered from property items, and I can tell you what
 17 those are one at a time.
 18           For example, item 110 was recovered from item
 19 9.   Item 111 was recovered from item number 27.
 20      Q    Wait.   Item 110  --
 21      A    Was recovered from item number 9.
 22      Q    What is item number 9?
 23      A    Again, I'll refer to my notes.
 24           I believe it's a glove.
 25      Q    And item 110, what kind of evidence is that?
 26      A    Yes.   Item number 9 is a leather right-hand
 27 glove.
 28      MR. SHAPIRO:  Excuse me, Your Honor.
 01      THE COURT:  Yes.
 02      MR. SHAPIRO:  We have not received a list of
 03 inventory items beginning at 91 for which testimony is
 04 being offered this morning.
 05      THE COURT:  All right.
 06           The document that was provided to me, does the
 07 defense have that summary as well?
 08      MS. CLARK:  I intended to give the copy that the
 09 court has to the defense.   If the court can allow us --
 10      THE WITNESS:  I have another copy.
 11      MS. CLARK:  We have another copy.
 12      THE COURT:  Please.
 13      MS. CLARK:  This information is contained in other
 14 discovery, but the list that is compiled was just
 15 compiled by this witness for her testimony.   The
 16 information is all in possession of the defense,
 17 Your Honor.
 18      THE COURT:  All right.
 19      MR. SHAPIRO:  Your Honor, that simply is not
 20 true.   We don't have any information about what was
 21 recovered yesterday.
 22      MS. CLARK:  No, this is not pertaining to items
 23 that were recovered yesterday.   The witness is
 24 testifying to items that were recovered some time ago
 25 from other evidence.
 26           This witness is describing right now trace
 27 evidence that was recovered from items that were seized
 28 from the crime scene, and the defense is in full
 01 possession of that information.
 02      MR. SHAPIRO:  Your Honor, my recollection of the
 03 testimony of this witness is items 94 through 109 refer
 04 to items seized yesterday from a search warrant.   We
 05 have not received any of this information.   We asked
 06 for it yesterday.
 07      MS. CLARK:  Your Honor, we didn't  -- the people
 08 didn't have the information either, and none of the
 09 items seized yesterday will be the subject of any
 10 testimony in this hearing because no one's had a chance
 11 to look at it yet, it was so recently seized, and the
 12 property reports are presently being compiled.   All
 13 this witness did was write down the numbers.
 14           There's been no attempt -- no time to look at
 15 those items for any purpose whatsoever.   The property
 16 report that will be put together with the return to
 17 search warrant will be given to counsel as soon as the
 18 people get it.
 19           At this time I just asked the witness to jot
 20 down the item numbers so it could be indicated to
 21 counsel what has or has not been looked at for future
 22 purposes.
 23      THE COURT:  All right.
 24           So for purposes of the hearing today, no
 25 determination whatsoever as to sufficiency of samples
 26 regarding items that were recovered and the execution of
 27 the search warrant a couple of days ago is being
 28 offered; correct?
 01      MS. CLARK:  None.
 02      THE COURT:  Okay.   All right.
 03      MR. SHAPIRO:  Your Honor, in that regard, my
 04 understanding is that as soon as the search warrant is
 05 executed, a return to the search warrant must be filed.
 06 And as soon as that is done, we would like to have the
 07 court order immediately to have those items listed and
 08 made available to us.
 09      MS. CLARK:  Your Honor, as counsel should be aware,
 10 the police have ten days to prepare a return to search
 11 warrant, at which time the property report listing what
 12 has been seized is attached to that return, and the law
 13 will be complied with as it has been throughout this
 14 case.
 15      THE COURT:  Yes.   They do have ten days to file
 16 their return, and of course the continuing discovery
 17 that is occurring in this matter does require that those
 18 matters, of course, be turned over to the defense.
 19           In the event that you do have that completed
 20 before the ten days, I would ask you to turn that over
 21 to the defense as quickly as possible.
 22      MS. CLARK:  Certainly, Your Honor.
 23      THE COURT:  All right.
 25      Q    So with respect then to -- item number 110 is
 26 your number for what?
 27      A    Item number 110 is just a number given to
 28 trace evidence recovered from item number 9.
 01      Q    And that  --
 02      A    That was a glove, and our policy is that
 03 whenever we recover trace evidence, that rather than
 04 just putting it in a bindle or a bundle with the
 05 original item, we book it as a separate item number.
 06           Now that evidence was all viewed by the
 07 defense in my presence on the 24th of this month.   They
 08 saw this.  It just had not had an item number assigned
 09 to it at the time.
 10      Q    And the trace evidence you're talking about is
 11 number 110, which was viewed by the defense last week,
 12 was what?
 13      A    Hairs and fibers.
 14      Q    Recovered from a glove?
 15      A    Recovered from item number 9, the glove, yes.
 16      Q    And number 111?
 17      A    Was hairs and fibers recovered -- trace
 18 evidence again recovered from item number 27.
 19      Q    Which was what?
 20      A    Item number 27, I believe, is a cap.   I have
 21 to keep shifting back and forth.
 22           Yes, it's a cap.   That was recovered from the
 23 driver's floor of the Bronco.
 24      Q    And again, that item was viewed by the defense
 25 last week as well?
 26      A    Yes.
 27      Q    And item number 112?
 28      A    Is trace evidence recovered from item number
 01 37.   That is a left-handed leather glove.
 02      Q    And what is the trace evidence recovered from
 03 that left-handed leather glove?
 04      A    Yes.
 05      Q    What is the trace evidence?
 06      A    It's hairs and fibers in this case.
 07      Q    Also examined by the defense last week?
 08      A    Yes.
 09      Q    Item number 113.
 10      A    Was hairs recovered from item number 38, which
 11 is a blue knit cap.
 12      Q    Did you say that was hairs recovered from a
 13 blue knit cap?
 14      A    Yes, a blue knit cap.   And some fibers also,
 15 I'm sorry.
 16      Q    And that was also viewed by the defense last
 17 week?
 18      A    Yes.
 19      Q    So now, with respect to those hair items, I'm
 20 going to come back to those later.
 21           Let's go back now and address the blood splits
 22 that have been requested.
 23           Now, based on your training and your
 24 qualifications, are you qualified to indicate to this
 25 court what volume of sample is needed for each test?
 26      A    Basically, yes.   An overall evaluation.
 27      Q    Now, with respect to items 1 through 60, and
 28 items 82 through 87, did you make a determination as to
 01 whether a blood split for the defense on those -- any of
 02 those items would be possible after the testing of those
 03 items on all standards available would be possible?
 04      A    Yes.   We made an estimated evaluation of the
 05 samples and found that a few of them appear to be
 06 sufficient for split after the whole battery of tests is
 07 completed.
 08           There's no guarantee until we complete those
 09 tests, however, other than on the samples taken from the
 10 victims and the defendant.   There is plenty of sample
 11 for split.
 12      Q    When you say "samples taken from the victims
 13 and the defendant," you mean  --
 14      A    Those are the standards.
 15      Q    The standards.
 16      A    The reference samples, the whole blood taken
 17 from Mr. Simpson and the whole blood swatches, frozen
 18 swatches, taken at the time of autopsy from the
 19 coroner's office.
 20      Q    Now, can you tell us, identifying by item
 21 number, which ones you determined may, after we've
 22 completed the -- your testing on them, may permit for a
 23 split?
 24      A    Certainly.
 25           Item number 3, which is a cigarette butt
 26 recovered from the street, would be tested, and there
 27 should be plenty for a split after we're done.
 28           Item number 7 is several swatches containing
 01 red stains recovered from a driveway, and it is
 02 possible -- looks fairly good that that could have
 03 enough left for a split after the testing is done.
 04           Item number 12 also has several swatches of
 05 different sizes, and they are fairly dark red; and
 06 again, those are -- appear to be a good possibility for
 07 a split after our testing is all done.
 08      Q    Item number 17?
 09      A    Item number 17, as stated before, is a
 10 reference sample from Mr. Simpson, and there's plenty
 11 of -- there will be plenty of that available for a
 12 split.
 13           Item number 42, there is again several
 14 swatches, fairly medium to dark red in color, and there
 15 should be enough for a split at the end of the testing.
 16           Item number 44, that's possible.   Those
 17 appear to be very much weaker, but there are several
 18 swatches and so there's a good possibility of a split on
 19 that item also.
 20           Number 47, there's plenty there.   We have no
 21 question there will be enough for a split when we're
 22 done.
 23           Item number 49 --
 24      Q    Excuse me.
 25      A    I'm sorry.
 26      Q    Can you say for certain that a blood split
 27 could be provided before the testing has been completed?
 28      A    No, not actually.   There could be
 01 something -- this is our best estimate, again.   There
 02 could be something go wrong.   There may be not as much
 03 white blood cells there as we need, and so we could be
 04 wrong.
 05           The best guess, without actually starting to
 06 extract the evidence and prepare preliminary gels on it,
 07 we can't tell for sure.
 08           Item number 49, there should be -- again,
 09 appears to be plenty available for a split when we're
 10 done with our testing.
 11           Item number 50 is a little weaker but has a
 12 good possibility for a split after we're done.
 13           Item number 57 appears to be possible for a
 14 split, but after we're done testing.
 15           Again, as indicated earlier, items number 72
 16 and 82, blood swatches from the victims, will both --
 17 plenty material available for a split after we're done.
 18      Q    Those are blood samples taken from the
 19 victims?
 20      A    Reference samples.   Yes.   They're listed as
 21 coroner's samples.
 22           And those are the only items at this time that
 23 we feel fairly confident that when we're done there will
 24 be sufficient sample for a split.
 25      Q    Now, before all of the testing proposed to be
 26 done on these, all of the items, has been completed, is
 27 there any way to know with certainty whether any of
 28 these items can be turned over -- can be split and given
 01 to the defense for independent testing?
 02      A    Not without doing the analysis, except
 03 possibly on the reference samples.  But without doing
 04 the analysis, we don't know how much we would need and
 05 therefore could not even begin to estimate how much they
 06 would need to have either.
 07      Q    In other words, leaving aside the issue of the
 08 reference sample -- which I understand the blood samples
 09 we're going to have plenty of with respect to the
 10 evidence samples -- is there any way to know whether at
 11 this time, before the testing has been conducted, there
 12 will be sufficient material left to provide a blood
 13 split to the defense?
 14      A    No.   Can't give you a definite answer, yes,
 15 that there will be.
 16      Q    Cannot be done?
 17      A    Cannot.
 18      Q    But at this time, for sure you can rule out
 19 certain items that you know would be incapable of
 20 providing a split?
 21      A    Yes.   There are many very, very small samples
 22 here that may only lend themselves to one type of test
 23 at best.
 24      Q    So the items that you've listed for us here
 25 today then are possibles, but you will not know until
 26 the testing has been completed?
 27      A    That's correct.
 28      Q    Now, with respect to hair evidence, did I
 01 inform you yesterday that the defense was making a
 02 request to limit the samples of hair taken from the
 03 defendant to one hair?
 04      A    Yes, you did.
 05      Q    And what was your response?
 06      A    Well, I was shocked at best.   First of all, I
 07 said, "You've got to be kidding," I think was my
 08 response.
 09      Q    And why was that?
 10      A    Because it's impossible to, from one hair, to
 11 make any kind of determination microscopically for a
 12 reference standard from one hair to determine that's
 13 similar to other hairs.
 14      Q    What is the standard number of hairs required
 15 or the method of retrieving sample hairs from a
 16 defendant in order to perform a comparison of those
 17 hairs to hairs recovered from a crime scene or item of
 18 evidence?
 19      A    The method of retrieval is such that you take
 20 samples from all parts of the head:  the front, both
 21 sides, the crown and the back.   And it's by pulling and
 22 combing, because you do absolutely need some of the
 23 roots if at all possible.
 24           The second thing is that the recommendation in
 25 several articles, including that made by the F.B.I., is
 26 30 to 100 hairs, and then you take a random sample of
 27 that 30 to 100.
 28           So they are suggesting that 20 reference hairs
 01 from each of the five areas, roughly making the hundred.
 02      Q    Then let me ask you this.
 03           How do you make sure that you don't mix hairs
 04 taken from different parts of the head?
 05      A    That's not important.   You can mix them once
 06 they're taken from different parts of the head.   It's
 07 not -- it's just that the hair differs on different
 08 parts of the head and you want to get an overall random
 09 sample, and then you take those and you get an overall
 10 picture of what the hair looks like, and then you
 11 compare it to evidence hairs taken, because you have no
 12 idea where those evidence hairs came from.
 13      Q    When you recover hairs from a crime scene or
 14 an item of evidence left at a crime scene, you don't
 15 know what part of the head that hair came from?
 16      A    No, you do not.
 17      Q    And with respect to -- as a matter of habit
 18 and custom, are the hairs recovered from the head of a
 19 defendant segregated by the area from which they were
 20 recovered for reference purposes?
 21      A    We segregate them sometimes when they're
 22 taken.   It's not an absolute necessity.   It's kind of
 23 an individual choice on the examiner.
 24      Q    With respect to comparison and analysis of
 25 hairs using the test known as P.C.R. --
 26           And that's for D.N.A.; is that correct?
 27      A    That's correct.
 28      Q    -- How many hairs would be required to be
 01 recovered from the defendant for the purposes of
 02 comparison -- comparing his hair to evidence that was
 03 recovered from the crime scene?
 04      A    Well, for P.C.R., we usually use the reference
 05 blood sample versus the crime scene hair.
 06           And as far as hair, it is possible to do
 07 P.C.R. on one hair root.   That's the minimum you must
 08 have, but there's no guarantee.
 09           There's some ratios, and I don't know the
 10 percentage off hand as to how many times that has to be
 11 done or how many times they've been successful with one
 12 hair.   It all depends on how good the root is, the age
 13 of the sample, et cetera.
 14      Q    Then for the purpose of performing comparison,
 15 using the D.N.A. test known as P.C.R., would you say
 16 that it was an accepted scientific practice or procedure
 17 to use only one head hair, if you were going to compare
 18 it that way, taken from the defendant to evidence hair
 19 recovered from a crime scene?
 20           Would that be an appropriate method to use?
 21      A    No.  I wouldn't compare hair to hair for
 22 P.C.R.   Again, I'd use a reference whole blood
 23 preferably.
 24      Q    Preferably.
 25           But if you did, would you say it was an
 26 accepted scientific practice to use only one hair from
 27 the defendant for that purpose?
 28      MR. SHAPIRO:  Your Honor, she's asked and answered
 01 that question three times.   She said for D.N.A. you do
 02 not need any hair.   You compare blood to the hair.
 03      MS. CLARK:  No, Your Honor, she hasn't answered my
 04 question, and this goes to counsel's representation
 05 concerning his -- the fact that he claims his expert
 06 said we only need one to three hairs, and that's why I'm
 07 inquiring as to this particular topic.
 08      THE COURT:  Do you understand the question?
 09      THE WITNESS:  Well, let me see if I can  -- can I
 10 try to attempt to  --
 11      MS. CLARK:  Well, I can reframe it, actually.
 12      THE WITNESS:  Okay.
 14      Q    Can you tell us whether it would be proper
 15 scientific procedure to perform a hair comparison using
 16 only one head hair from the defendant to compare to
 17 crime scene hairs for any test?
 18      A    No.
 19      Q    Have you ever heard of any criminalist who
 20 would advocate comparison of crime scene hairs to only
 21 one hair taken from the head of a defendant?
 22      A    No.
 23      MS. CLARK:  I have nothing further.
 24      THE COURT:  And Mr. Shapiro, will you be performing
 25 the questioning of this witness?
 26      MR. SHAPIRO:  Yes.
 27      THE COURT:  And I forgot to ask counsel before we
 28 started, if you would please use the podium.   There are
 01 no microphones at counsel table, but there is a
 02 microphone at the podium and that way everyone will be
 03 able to hear the questions.
 04      MR. SHAPIRO:  Thank you very much, Your Honor.
 05           Your Honor, may I refer Court and Counsel to
 06 page 14 of our discovery motion, item 29-B, which
 07 basically asks for a curriculum vitae of all expert
 08 witnesses.   We have not received that yet.
 09      THE COURT:  Do you have a copy of your resume?
 10      THE WITNESS:  No, I don't, with me.
 11      THE COURT:  Would it be possible to have some -- do
 12 you have that prepared at your office?
 13      THE WITNESS:  I believe it's in the computer, yes.
 14      THE COURT:  Would somebody be able to Fax it over
 15 here to the building so that can be provided to
 16 Mr. Shapiro?
 17      THE WITNESS:  No, they can't get to it.   I have to
 18 do it when I get back.
 19      THE COURT:  Mr. Shapiro, do you need that before
 20 you are prepared to begin the cross-examination?
 21      MR. SHAPIRO:  Well, Your Honor, it would save a lot
 22 of time, rather than going through all of her
 23 credentials, and we'd like to examine that.
 24           We may be able to stipulate she's an expert,
 25 or we may want to contest that.
 26      THE COURT:  All right.
 27           There is no one else who has access to your
 28 computer who can check it?
 01      THE WITNESS:  I can call and try.   I don't know
 02 who's there right now.
 03      THE COURT:  All right.
 04           Why don't we see if we can facilitate that in
 05 the quickest way possible.
 06           Are there any questions that you have related
 07 not to her expert opinion that -- just to the
 08 foundational matters concerning certain item numbers, or
 09 would it be better just to wait until we can get her
 10 background?
 11      MR. SHAPIRO:  I think the background would be
 12 important to have first.
 13      THE COURT:  All right.
 14      MR. SHAPIRO:  Thank you, Your Honor.
 15      THE COURT:  Okay.   Then we will break at this
 16 point in time.
 17           If you could get that as quickly as possible,
 18 I would appreciate it.
 19      MR. SHAPIRO:  Your Honor, may the Court and -- may
 20 counsel approach the Court for purposes of scheduling
 21 only?
 22      THE COURT:  Yes.   Do you want this on the record?
 23      MR. SHAPIRO:  It can be on the record or off the
 24 record.   Just a personal reference to the court.
 25      THE COURT:  Then I'll see counsel in chambers with
 26 the reporter.
 27      MS. CLARK:  Yes.   All matters do have to be on the
 28 record in this matter, Your Honor.
 01      THE COURT:  Yes.
 03           (At 9:55 a.m., a recess was taken.)
 05        (At 10:00 a.m., the following proceedings
 06                  were had in chambers.)
 08      THE COURT:  All right, with regard to scheduling.
 09      MR. SHAPIRO:  Your Honor, my best friend's father
 10 passed away the night before yesterday and the funeral
 11 service and interment is today at 12:00 o'clock at
 12 Hillside Memorial Cemetery.
 13      THE COURT:  Is that Judge Coleman or someone else?
 14      MR. SHAPIRO:  No.   It's Michael Nasatir.
 15      THE COURT:  Okay.
 16      MR. SHAPIRO:  I would, if at all possible, like to
 17 attend the ceremony.   He has been my best friend
 18 through college and remains the same.   The service
 19 starts at noon.
 20           I think if we were excused at 20 minutes to
 21 12:00, we would be able to make it and we could be back
 22 here certainly by -- we would be back here by
 23 2:00 o'clock.   Possibly 1:30, but 2:00 for sure.
 24      THE COURT:  All right.   I assume that you have no
 25 objection?
 26      MS. CLARK:  No.
 27      MR. HODGMAN:  No.
 28      THE COURT:  Okay, that's fine.
 01           Any other matters?
 02      MS. CLARK:  Extend to Michael my condolences.
 03      MR. SHAPIRO:  Thank you.
 04      THE COURT:  So, in other words, we're all ready.
 05 I mean, I have to confess, I didn't receive your motion
 06 until very late and it came as sort of a surprise that
 07 it came that late, but I assume that you're ready to
 08 proceed on that?
 09      MS. CLARK:  We would like to be heard about that in
 10 open court, Your Honor.   We got it at ten minutes to
 11 5:00.
 12      THE COURT:  That's about when we got it.
 13      MS. CLARK:  Um hum.   And we will be ready to
 14 proceed on it.   We'll be ready to proceed with the
 15 entire preliminary hearing.   We are now, on all
 16 matters.
 17           I apologize to the Court and Counsel.   I
 18 completely forgot to have -- to remind the witness to
 19 bring her curriculum vitae.   It's a standard thing I
 20 would always remind her to do, and things have been
 21 pretty hectic in this case.   But she'll bring it in.
 22           We're ready to proceed with everything.   But
 23 I would like to be heard about the motion.
 24      THE COURT:  All right.
 25           And I assume then that you remain ready to
 26 proceed?
 27      MR. SHAPIRO:  Yes.
 28      MR. UELMEN:  Yes.
 01      MR. SHAPIRO:  Your Honor, we had some difficulty
 02 this morning, and only because of the mass confusion
 03 that's going on, about bringing lawyers into the
 04 courtroom.
 05      THE COURT:  Well, maybe I can clarify some of that
 06 difficulty.
 07           We were advised -- and I don't know where we
 08 got this advice -- that there were going to be five
 09 lawyers, and then this morning I was advised that
 10 apparently you have six lawyers.
 11      MR. SHAPIRO:  Today.
 12      THE COURT:  Today.
 13           You mean the number's going to go up?
 14      MR. SHAPIRO:  Yes.
 15      THE COURT:  Do we know how many we're talking
 16 about?
 17      MR. SHAPIRO:  At least two more, and possibly four
 18 more.   Total four more, depending on what evidence the
 19 people put on.
 20      THE COURT:  All right.
 21      MR. SHAPIRO:  They've already indicated there's not
 22 going to be D.N.A. evidence.   If that's the case, there
 23 will be potentially two more and probably just one
 24 more.   If there is D.N.A. evidence, there will be three
 25 more.
 26      MS. CLARK:  Is counsel referring to D.N.A. evidence
 27 presented at the preliminary hearing?
 28      MR. SHAPIRO:  Yeah.
 01      MS. CLARK:  None.
 02      MR. SHAPIRO:  So there will be one more lawyer.
 03      THE COURT:  Just one more lawyer?
 04      MR. SHAPIRO:  Yes.
 05      THE COURT:  And  --
 06      MR. SHAPIRO:  That's Mr. Bailey.
 07      THE COURT:  Okay.   I'm sure you noticed that we do
 08 have certain limitations with regard to size and  --
 09      MR. SHAPIRO:  The accommodations are perfect for
 10 us.
 11      THE COURT:  Okay.
 12      MR. SHAPIRO:  Just so long as we have some
 13 flexibility of getting the lawyers in.   We have a
 14 couple of lawyers who are just helping us with documents
 15 and sorting out items of evidence.
 16      THE COURT:  So you're saying just one more seat is
 17 all you're talking about for lawyers?
 18      MR. SHAPIRO:  We need one more seat for a lawyer.
 19      THE COURT:  For a lawyer.   Which would be
 20 behind -- I mean, not -- would not be at counsel table
 21 but  --
 22      MR. SHAPIRO:  If it's possible to extend or put
 23 another working table in so we could have the note
 24 takers -- we have two lawyers just for notes and for
 25 perusing items of evidence.
 26      THE COURT:  We'll -- I'll have to make inquiries.
 27 I don't have the answer to that.
 28      MR. SHAPIRO:  The second thing is we do have an
 01 expert in the courtroom, Dr. Barbara Wolf, who is the
 02 head criminalist for the state of Albany (sic), an
 03 employee of the New York State Police Department.
 04           We would like her to be able to sit next to
 05 Ms. Caplan at the side of counsel table just for the
 06 purpose of taking notes.
 07      MS. CLARK:  What is her title?
 08      MR. SHAPIRO:  I believe she is  -- she's a
 09 criminalist with  -- in Upstate New York for Albany.   I
 10 don't know her exact title.
 11      THE COURT:  For the police department or private?
 12      MR. SHAPIRO:  Police department.
 13      THE COURT:  Now, that's during the entirety of the
 14 proceedings or just during the expert testimony?
 15      MR. SHAPIRO:  Just expert testimony right now.
 16      THE COURT:  All right.   That's fine.   I don't
 17 have a problem with that.
 18      MR. SHAPIRO:  Thank you.
 19      MR. HODGMAN:  Your Honor, one courtesy, if I may.
 20      THE COURT:  Yes.
 21      MR. HODGMAN:  I believe I'm familiar with most of
 22 the counsel on the defense side of the table and, I met
 23 Mr. Uelmen this morning.
 24           There is one gentleman who has not been
 25 introduced to me, and I wonder if he could be identified
 26 for us?
 27      MR. SHAPIRO:  Sure.   Who do you want to meet,
 28 bill?
 01      MR. HODGMAN:  Who is that?
 02      MR. SHAPIRO:  The tall fellow?
 03      MR. HODGMAN:  The tall fellow.
 04      MR. SHAPIRO:  Oh, that's Skip Taft.   Mr. Leroy
 05 Taft.   He is the personal attorney for Mr. Simpson.
 06 Mr. Uelmen; myself; Mr. Bailey; possibly Mr. Dershowitz;
 07 Ms. Filipi, who you know who was with your office;
 08 Mr. Kardashian.
 09      THE COURT:  I don't want all these lawyers popping
 10 up on everything.
 11      MR. SHAPIRO:  I don't think you'll experience any
 12 problem whatsoever.   We have done this during high
 13 profile cases.   Only one lawyer will speak, only one
 14 lawyer will address witnesses, only one lawyer will make
 15 objections.
 16      THE COURT:  I'll check about that additional table
 17 and let you know.
 18           I believe you were my criminal law professor
 19 back at Loyola in 1974.   It's been a long time,
 20 20 years.
 21      MR. UELMEN:  Thank you.
 22      MS. CLARK:  I'm curious.   Is that going to be one
 23 lawyer for the witnesses or one lawyer for the
 24 objections or one lawyer for the arguments?
 25      THE COURT:  Well, I think what -- you're going to
 26 divide it up -- the motion, I assume, is what you're
 27 handling.
 28      MR. UELMEN:  Yes.
 01      THE COURT:  And if you had some expert, maybe
 02 you're going to have someone else do that.
 03      MR. SHAPIRO:  Exactly.
 04      THE COURT:  But for different portions of any part
 05 of the motion, there will be a designated lawyer
 06 handling that aspect?
 07      MR. SHAPIRO:  I'm going to be the lead lawyer
 08 throughout the proceedings.   I will be handling the
 09 majority of the witnesses.   If there are other
 10 witnesses that will be examined, I will notify the Court
 11 as to who will be doing that.
 12      THE COURT:  All right.
 13      MS. CLARK:  That's all?
 14      THE COURT:  I guess so.
 15      MR. SHAPIRO:  The other thing, there is no
 16 obligation on the part of the people, but it would help,
 17 I think, speed matters along if we could get a list of
 18 the order of witnesses that are going to be called, as
 19 close to as possible as the people know, so we can have
 20 proper exhibits here and proper documentation so we can
 21 move this in the quickest manner possible.
 22      THE COURT:  Do you have such?
 23      MS. CLARK:  Mr. Uelmen called me yesterday and I
 24 told him I did.
 25      MR. SHAPIRO:  Is that in order?
 26      MS. CLARK:  As close as I can get.   I hate to be
 27 held to that because a witness may not be available and
 28 I have to juggle.   But that's my proposed evidence.
 01      MR. SHAPIRO:  You have civilian witnesses and then
 02 experts and so on?
 03      MS. CLARK:  Yes, that's correct.
 04      MR. UELMEN:  Who do you plan to call?
 05      MS. CLARK:  Detective Ferman, Detective Phillips,
 06 Detective Vannatter, Detective Lange  -- Lange and
 07 Vannatter are pretty overlapping.   So those three, if
 08 we get that far.
 09      THE COURT:  Is there a typed up witness list that
 10 the Court could also be furnished a copy of?
 11      MS. CLARK:  As a matter of fact I have it on
 12 counsel table.
 13      THE COURT REPORTER:  We would appreciate one as
 14 well.
 15      MS. CLARK:  Sure.
 16      MR. SHAPIRO:  We would like to call Dennis Fung
 17 on the motion, if you could have him.
 18      MS. CLARK:  Sure.
 19      THE COURT:  Also what I plan to do during the
 20 course of this is to start at 9:00 o'clock, and I really
 21 appreciate if everybody could be there.   And I think it
 22 works better when the defendant is already out before I
 23 come out.
 24           So we'll try to do it that way and to take, if
 25 possible, just a fifteen minute break somewhere around
 26 10:30, and to again start promptly at 1:30 -- with the
 27 exception of today -- and to take a break somewhere
 28 around 2:45, 3:00, somewhere in that neighborhood, again
 01 for 15 minutes.
 02           It's very difficult, especially when there's a
 03 lot of people involved, for everybody to get back, I
 04 know, in 15 minutes.   People lose track of the time or
 05 they're doing things that are necessary to the case or
 06 they're using the restroom or whatever it is they're
 07 doing.
 08           But I really want to make an effort to try to
 09 do that because these 15 minute breaks can end up going
 10 to half an hour, 40 minutes, and I think it just -- we
 11 just lose a lot of time that's not necessary to do.
 12      MR. SHAPIRO:  Your Honor, if in that regard --
 13 because it's next to impossible for us to leave the
 14 courtroom during those breaks, and I would like to
 15 remain -- if we could use the facilities in the jury
 16 room for the restroom.
 17           And if possible, if we could bring in a small
 18 refrigerator so we could have drinks and snacks there
 19 for all of us, that might just save some time.
 20      THE COURT:  I'll have to discuss that security-wise
 21 with the bailiffs and see what they have to say about
 22 it.
 23      MS. CLARK:  Why don't we cater it.
 24      THE COURT:  That sounds good as long as you share
 25 the wealth.
 26      MR. SHAPIRO:  That is the best suggestion yet.
 27 Have catered lunches for staff and attorneys.
 28      MS. CLARK:  Call Ma Maison.   I think not.
 01      THE COURT:  Is there anything else?
 02      MR. SHAPIRO:  That's all.
 03      THE BAILIFF:  Update on the curriculum vitae.
 04           They found it on the computer and then they
 05 have to print it and Fax it.
 06      MS. CLARK:  Are they going to Fax it to here?
 07      THE BAILIFF:  I don't know where they're going to
 08 Fax it.
 09      MS. CLARK:  Can they?   Is there a Fax here?
 10      THE BAILIFF:  We have one close by.
 11      MS. CLARK:  I have one in my office too.   Whatever
 12 you want.
 13      THE COURT:  You'll have to arrange that.
 14      THE BAILIFF:  Do you want to talk to your witness?
 15      MS. CLARK:  Sure.
 16      THE COURT:  Then as soon as we're able to have that
 17 and you've had a chance maybe to look at it for a few
 18 minutes, you let me know when you're ready.
 19           Remind me.   If it gets to be twenty to 12:00
 20 and I'm not aware of it, if you could just remind me
 21 because I will accommodate your obligations.
 22      MR. SHAPIRO:  I really appreciate that.   Thank
 23 you.
 24      MS. CLARK:  Great.
 25      MR. HODGMAN:  Thank you, Your Honor.
 26      MS. CLARK:  Thank you, Your Honor.
 28    (Proceedings in chambers concluded at 11:05 a.m.)
 01         THE COURT:  All right.
 02            We're once again on the record in the case of
 03 People versus Simpson.  the defendant is present with
 04 counsel, the people are represented.
 05              Mr. Shapiro, I assume you do now have a copy
 06 of the curriculum vitae.
 07         MR. SHAPIRO:  Your Honor, what I have is not a
 08 curriculum vitae, but a statement of qualifications.
 09         THE COURT:  All right.
 10         MR. SHAPIRO:  We're ready.
 11         THE COURT:  Miss Kestler, if you'd retake the
 12 witness stand.
 13              You've previously been sworn and remain under
 14 oath.
 15         THE WITNESS:  yes, your Honor.
 16         THE COURT:  Mr. Shapiro.
 17         MR. SHAPIRO:  thank you much, your Honor.
 19                      CROSS-EXAMINATION
 22         Q    Good morning.
 23         A    Morning.
 24         Q    Is that -- is it miss or Mrs. Kestler?
 25         A    Mrs. Or Ms., whichever, you prefer.
 26         Q    What do you prefer?
 27         A    Doesn't matter.
 28         Q    Miss Kestler, does your husband work for the
 01 Los Angeles Police Department as a detective?
 02         A    Yes, he does.
 03         MS. CLARK:  Objection, irrelevant.
 04         THE COURT:  Sustained.
 05         MR. SHAPIRO:  Your Honor, I think this goes to --
 06         MS. CLARK:  Motion to strike.
 07         MR. SHAPIRO:  I think it goes to credibility.
 08              I can make an offer of proof if you would
 09 like.
 10         THE COURT:  The objection is sustained.  The motion
 11 to strike is granted.
 12         MR. SHAPIRO:  Your Honor, may I inquire as to
 13 whether or not he is, or has been assigned to the very
 14 division that's investigating this case?  Would that be of
 15 relevance to the court?
 16         THE COURT:  You can ask that.
 17         MR. SHAPIRO:  Thank you.
 18         Q    What is your --
 19         MS. CLARK:  Same objection, your Honor.
 20         THE COURT:  Overruled.
 22         Q    has your husband been assigned to the
 23 robbery/homicide division, to your knowledge?
 24         A    Yes, he has.
 25         Q    Is he still assigned?
 26         A    Yes, he is.
 27         Q    And do you personally know the two lead
 28 detectives in this case?
 01         A    I've worked for them for several years, yes.
 02         Q    Do you know them personally, outside of work?
 03         A    No.
 04         Q    Have you discussed this case with them?
 05         A    Just as pertains to the case, and evidence
 06 involved in the case.
 07         Q    Have you discussed this case with your
 08 husband?
 09         A    Not really, no.
 10         Q    You have provided us with a statement of
 11 qualifications, consisting of three pages, in the form,
 12 really, of check boxes.
 13              Is this what you consider your curriculum
 14 vitae?
 15         A    This is the only thing that we have used most
 16 recent years.  Since Prop 115, this is all I have available
 17 at this time.  This is what we've been considering our
 18 C.V., yes.
 19         Q    My question is, do you consider this your
 20 curriculum vitae?
 21         A    I have used this type of statement for years.
 22 I used to spell it out in terminology, rather than have
 23 check boxes.  It used to look more narrative, but it didn't
 24 go into much greater detail.
 25         Q    Prior to being employed by the Los Angeles
 26 Police Department, what was your work experience?
 27         A    I worked for approximately five years in a
 28 private laboratory, performing chemical analysis and
 01 biological analysis.
 02         Q    What part of that work consisted of D.N.A.?
 03         A    D.N.A. wasn't being done until the last few
 04 years.
 05         Q    What part of that work concerned microscopic
 06 comparison of hair?
 07         A    None, then.
 08         Q    What part of that work consisted of serology?
 09         A    Not at that time, other than my masters
 10 thesis.
 11         Q    What part of that work consisted of
 12 maintaining samples of blood?
 13         A    None.
 14         Q    What part of that work consisted of collecting
 15 samples of blood?
 16         A    None.
 17         Q    What part of that work consisted of preserving
 18 such samples of blood?
 19         A    None.
 20         Q    Now, you have authored one article; is that
 21 correct?
 22         A    I authored one article, yes.  I've been
 23 coauthor on several others that aren't listed here.
 24         Q    What is the article that you have authored?
 25         A    It was -- I have to read the actual title.
 26 "The lab goes to the lab."
 27         Q    When was that published?
 28         A    1982.
 01         Q    And you were the coauthor on that?
 02         A    Yes.
 03         Q    Have you authored any articles?
 04         A    No.
 05         Q    What did that article deal with?
 06         A    That is about clandestine laboratories.
 07         Q    Drug cases?
 08         A    Yes.
 09         Q    Had nothing do with do with serology?
 10         A    No.
 11         Q    Have you published or coauthored any articles
 12 on serology?
 13         A    No.
 14         Q    Have you published or coauthored any articles
 15 on hair analysis?
 16         A    No.
 17         Q    You indicated your training in the discipline
 18 of hair.  Is that how you refer to it?  The discipline of
 19 hair?
 20         A    Actually, it's -- hair's just like a fiber, so
 21 I guess it would be hair and fiber analysis.
 22         Q    Let me refer you to page 3 of your statement
 23 of qualifications.
 24         A    Uh-huh.
 25         Q    Mrs. Kestler, you list there "Courtroom
 26 experience, discipline hair, 1980 through 1986;" is that
 27 correct?
 28         A    That's correct.  That's the last time I
 01 testified on a hair case.
 02         Q    Up until that point in time, you testified
 03 approximately 35 times?
 04         A    Uh-huh, that's correct.
 05         Q    I don't see anything on your statement of
 06 qualifications indicating testifying regarding blood, blood
 07 samples or blood preservation.
 08              Is your qualification statement incomplete in
 09 that regard?
 10         A    No.  It's under "Crime scene investigation and
 11 preservation of evidence" on page two.
 12              I have testified approximately 55 times in
 13 crime scene investigation and preservation of evidence.
 14 And in each of those cases, or almost all of those, had to
 15 do with blood preservation and obtaining sufficient sample
 16 for analysis purposes.
 17         Q    When was the last time you testified in a
 18 court of law regarding the amount of a sample necessary for
 19 preservation for later analysis?
 20         A    Oh, let's see, probably about 19 -- let's see,
 21 when did I prepare this.  Actually, the date changes
 22 automatically, so last time I testified, and that was
 23 probably about 1988, '86.
 24         Q    Do you recall which it was?  '88 or '86?
 25         A    No, I don't recall, I really don't recall the
 26 year.  So, sometime between 1982 and now, but only once or
 27 twice since then, because I've been in management most of
 28 that time.
 01         Q    How many times have you testified since 1976,
 02 regarding the amount of blood that is necessary to preserve
 03 a sample for later analysis?
 04         A    Between 30 and 55 times.  Almost all those
 05 cases listed on page 2, that refer to a crime scene
 06 investigation and preservation of evidence, are dealing
 07 with blood.
 08         Q    And you were specifically asked the amount of
 09 blood necessary to be preserved for later analysis; is that
 10 your testimony?
 11         A    I'm not sure if that was exactly what was
 12 questioned, no.
 13         Q    In fact, that was never asked of you before
 14 today; isn't that the case?
 15         A    No, that's not true.
 16         Q    Do you recall when the last time you testified
 17 to the amount of blood necessary for splitting was?
 18         A    I don't believe I've ever been asked to
 19 testify to that.
 20         Q    Now, I notice in your statement of
 21 qualifications that you, indeed, attended a seminar on
 22 D.N.A.; is that correct?
 23         A    Yes.
 24         Q    And that was in January of 1988?
 25         A    That was one, yes.
 26         Q    and that's eight hours?
 27         A    That's one, yes.  I've attended several which
 28 are not on here.  As I said, I was not prepared for this,
 01 so this is not up to date.
 02         Q    Well, it's dated the 24th, is it not, of this
 03 month?
 04         A    As I explained, the computer automatically
 05 updates it, and I did not have time to go back in.  There
 06 was apparently a rush to get this here, so --
 07         Q    Isn't that something that's standard for
 08 people who testify as expert witnesses, to have a
 09 curriculum vitae that is current to date?
 10         A    It's only required if I'm going to bring it to
 11 court.
 12              As I stated, I don't testify much anymore, so
 13 I don't update this on a routine basis, no.  I keep track
 14 of my interests, and what I'm doing, but not -- I don't
 15 update the c.v. all the time.
 16         Q    When were you notified that you were going to
 17 come to court as a witness in this case?
 18         A    Yesterday, or perhaps the day before, late at
 19 night.
 20         Q    When were you given information regarding this
 21 case?
 22         MS. CLARK:  Objection, vague.
 24         Q    When were you given evidence regarding this
 25 case?
 26         A    Well, I was never given evidence.
 27         Q    When were you aware that evidence was
 28 available during this case?
 01         A    When the case --
 02         MS. CLARK:  Objection, irrelevant.
 03         THE COURT:  Overruled.
 04              You can answer that.
 05         THE WITNESS:  Whenever the case went down, there
 06 was evidence.  But again, I did not expect to be involved.
 08         Q    You didn't consider yourself as a potential
 09 witness in this case?
 10         A    No, I did not.
 11         Q    Well, the things you haven't had time to add
 12 on to your statement of qualifications, let's talk about
 13 D.N.A.  What additional qualifications do you have since
 14 eight hours of a seminar of 1988?
 15         A    I have spent many, many hours with experts in
 16 the field from private laboratories, including cellmark,
 17 lifecodes.
 18              I've attended all the American society
 19 meetings from the past, since 1985, which is once a year
 20 for 40 hours a week.  And I would say at least two days of
 21 that is always devoted to D.N.A.
 22              I also have attended all the A.S.C.L.D., as an
 23 A.S.C.L.D. board of directors meetings, MUST BE TWICE a
 24 year for the last -- since 1985, also.  And there's always
 25 an update by the FBI and private laboratories on D.N.A.
 26 analysis, and what is required for that.
 27              AND I have been instrumental in implementation
 28 of D.N.A. in our laboratory as the manager, so I'm very
 01 familiar with it.
 02         Q    Do you know who the scientist is that is
 03 responsible for the D.N.A. subtypes that are being used in
 04 this case?
 05         A    The scientist that's responsible?
 06         Q    Yes.
 07         A    The person that developed it?
 08         Q    yes.
 09         A    Individually?
 10         Q    yes.
 11         A    Not -- no, not off the top of my head.  I'd
 12 like to have it --
 13         Q    I take it you haven't read any of the books
 14 that he's published on this subject?
 15         A    No, I have not read extensive books on the
 16 subject.
 17         Q    I take it that you haven't taken any courses
 18 that directly relate to D.N.A., in a school atmosphere?
 19         A    Except in college, and it wasn't -- D.N.A.
 20 was, you know, barely mentioned as part of genetics and
 21 microbiology.
 22         Q    When was that?  I don't want to --
 23         A    That's quite all right, counsel, I'm not
 24 concerned about my age here.
 25              It was 19 -- probably 1970.
 26         Q    That was the last time you were involved in
 27 any academic study?
 28         A    Academic study; that is correct.
 01         Q    Now, I understand that you list as your
 02 training the following things:  "How to turn your work
 03 group into a winning team, Los Angeles Police Department"?
 04         A    that's management training.
 05         Q    That has nothing to do with winning or losing
 06 a criminal case?
 07         A    Not that I recall.
 08         Q    You've had two courses in management seminar?
 09         A    Actually, that's an ongoing management
 10 seminar.
 11              As I stated earlier, as a member of the
 12 American society of crime laboratory directors, board of
 13 directors, I attend the management seminars with the FBI
 14 twice a year.
 15         Q    And you attend seminars regarding sexual
 16 harassment?
 17         A    I've attended -- there's always an update on
 18 that, believe me.
 19         Q    And you've gone to forensic alcohol
 20 supervisors school?
 21         A    That's correct.
 22         Q    Do you consider yourself an expert in D.N.A.?
 23         A    Not in D.N.A.  I considered myself an expert
 24 in preservation, collection and evaluation of evidence for
 25 all types of tests.
 26         Q    Do you consider yourself an expert in
 27 serology?
 28         A    No, not in today's current serology.  Again,
 01 evaluation, and I understand it, I can review reports, I
 02 can review People's analysis.  I would never try to do it
 03 at the bench, but I do understand it.
 04         Q    Do you consider yourself an expert in the
 05 comparison of hair?
 06         A    Yes, I do.
 07         Q    What scientific training have you had
 08 academically, regarding the comparison of hair?
 09         A    well, There isn't really any academic
 10 training, other than my masters program and private courses
 11 in criminalistics, involved comparison of hair, and also
 12 the Mc Crone school hairs and fibers, that's one of the
 13 academic courses.
 14              And I've been trained as to on-the-job
 15 training by the FBI, as to hair and fiber analysis.
 16         Q    Are you familiar with a gentleman by the name
 17 of Dr. Henry Lee?
 18         A    Yes, I am.
 19         Q    Can you tell us who he is?
 20         A    He is a forensic scientist out of Connecticut.
 21         Q    Do you have an opinion regarding his
 22 qualifications in this area?
 23         A    Not in hair examination, I have no idea.
 24         Q    What about as a forensic scientist?
 25         A    I don't know if henry actually does any bench
 26 work anymore, or if he's like myself, and he advises and
 27 oversees and reviews work, and evaluates evidence.
 28              But other than that, I know he's like myself.
 01 He used to do a lot of bench work.  I consider himself -- I
 02 considered at that time that what he was doing, as well as
 03 what I was doing, him to be an expert.  He is also a member
 04 of all the associations that I'm member of.
 05         Q    Is he a member of any organizations that
 06 you're not a member of?
 07         A    I don't know.
 08         Q    Have you seen his 50 page curriculum vitae
 09 recently?
 10         MS. CLARK:  Objection, your Honor.  Counsel is
 11 testifying.  That's hearsay.  We have no evidence of that.
 12              If counsel wants to put it into evidence and
 13 call Dr. Lee, that's fine, but --
 14         THE COURT:  the Objection is sustained.
 16         Q    If Dr. Lee is of the opinion that you only
 17 need one hair for D.N.A. testing, would you agree or
 18 disagree with that?  Yes or no?
 19         MS. CLARK:  Objection, irrelevant.
 20         THE COURT:  Sustained.
 21         MR. SHAPIRO:  I'd like to now, your Honor, direct
 22 the court's attention, and the prosecutor'S attention, to
 23 the list of evidence.
 24              I would like to, painstakingly as it may be,
 25 go through each item, to see what tests were done, what
 26 tests are anticipated, and what the amount of sample is,
 27 and how much remains.
 28         MS. CLARK:  Objection, irrelevant.
 01         THE COURT:  I don't think it's irrelevant.
 02              However, do you have that information at your
 03 fingertips?
 04         THE WITNESS:  I'm sorry.  Could you repeat what
 05 you --
 07         Q    You testified there are 60 items of evidence.
 08 I'd like to first direct your attention to the items of
 09 evidence that relate to blood.
 10              And I would like to review with you each one
 11 of these items of evidence, what tests have been performed
 12 at your laboratory to date, and what tests you anticipate
 13 performing in the future, so the judge can make a
 14 determination as to whether or not we will be able to
 15 perform the exact same tests.
 16         MR. SHAPIRO:  What we would like, your Honor, is
 17 this:  If they have done serology and D.N.A., and there
 18 still remains a sample, we would like to do serology and
 19 D.N.A.
 20         THE COURT:  I think I understand where you're going
 21 with this.  You want to know how much of a sample remains?
 22         MR. SHAPIRO:  Exactly.
 23         THE COURT:  And what tests have been done.  And if
 24 no tests have been done, you want the know that also?
 25         MR. SHAPIRO:  Correct.
 26         THE COURT:  Okay.
 27         MS. CLARK:  Your Honor, I think that perhaps it
 28 would be a lot more efficient if counsel would simply look
 01 at the documents he was given today, which indicate exactly
 02 what tests have been done and not done.
 03              And with respect to having the court determine
 04 whether or not further testing should be done, or whether
 05 sufficient volume exists to provide a split at this point
 06 in time, as to any piece evidence, how could the Court do
 07 that?  That's a matter of expert opinion.
 08         THE COURT:  Well, that is correct.  And my
 09 understanding is that apparently the defense intends to
 10 present some expert testimony on that issue.
 11         MS. CLARK:  Well, that was not my understanding.
 12 And I expressly asked Mr. Uelmen last night, when he called
 13 to ask me what the order of witnesses would be.  I asked
 14 him what witnesses he intended to call today, and he
 15 informed me there were none.
 16         THE COURT:  Mr. Shapiro.
 17         MR. SHAPIRO:  your Honor, I think we will be able
 18 to satisfy the court, from this witness, through our
 19 cross-examination, that the tests that have been done,
 20 samples remain.  And those samples would be enough to
 21 duplicate those tests in almost every area.
 22         THE COURT:  WELL --
 23         MS. CLARK:  In other words, counsel is indicating
 24 that he is not going to call any witnesses, expert or
 25 otherwise, pertaining to this blood split issue.
 26              Is that the case?
 27         THE COURT:  That seems to be the general import of
 28 what you're saying; is that correct?
 01         MR. SHAPIRO:  Your Honor, that is a general import.
 02 Obviously, we have the right to call witnesses.  We do not
 03 anticipate calling witnesses.
 04              But as the court well knows, depending on the
 05 answers that are given, we'll make that determination at an
 06 appropriate time.
 07         MS. CLARK:  Your Honor, counsel is in possession of
 08 the information he is seeking, in the list that was
 09 provided to him this morning.  It indicates what tests have
 10 been performed.
 11              If counsel needs to inquire further, as to
 12 what tests are planned, that could be done collectively, as
 13 opposed to item by item.
 14         THE COURT:  well, I'm not going to tell counsel he
 15 has to examine in a collective fashion.  you can go item by
 16 item.
 17              If you have this particular information, it
 18 might be helpful if the witness has it also, to refer to
 19 it.  Because there's so many items by number.
 20              I don't want to get into the results, however,
 21 of any of these tests.
 22         MR. SHAPIRO:  I will not ask the results.  That is
 23 not my intention, your Honor.
 24         THE COURT:  All right.  You may proceed.
 25         MR. SHAPIRO:  Thank you.
 26         Q    may I direct your attention to item number 1.
 27 Just let me know when you have an opportunity to focus on
 28 it.
 01         A    I'm fine.
 02         Q    Item number 1 contains two bindles?
 03         A    No, it contains two swatches.
 04         Q    Two swatches?
 05         A    I'm sorry.  Item 1 is one bindle containing
 06 two swatches.  And item 1-C is a swatch, which is just a
 07 control sample.
 08         Q    So, you would say that item number 1 has two
 09 bindles, that are composed of a swatch and a control?
 10         A    Two -- no, that's -- I prefer to keep them
 11 separate, because it will just be confusing.  If we could
 12 stick to item 1 and 1-C separately.
 13              Item 1 contains two swatches.
 14         Q    And was any analysis done on item 1?
 15         A    Not yet.
 16         Q    How much evidence is contained in item 1?
 17         A    There is one swatch that's approximately two
 18 millimeters square, and one swatch which is one millimeter
 19 square.
 20         Q    Where was that found?
 21         A    I'm sorry.  I thought we were going to deal
 22 with just quantity of evidence, not location.
 23         MS. CLARK:  Yes, your Honor.  Counsel is in
 24 possession of a property report, that indicates where all
 25 these items were found.
 26         THE COURT:  I don't think it's necessary, at this
 27 point in time, to know where it's located.
 28         MR. SHAPIRO:  Very well, thank you.  Thank you.
 01         Q    When do you anticipate analyzing it?
 02         MS. CLARK:  Objection, irrelevant.
 03              Counsel wants to know at this point, what this
 04 witness's opinion is with respect to the availability of
 05 the blood split.  When the tests will be performed in the
 06 future, is irrelevant to that determination.
 07              I think that counsel should be confining his
 08 questioning to matters that are now in issue.  And that
 09 would be what tests have been performed, what tests are
 10 planned, and what volume she anticipates will be available
 11 for the blood split, if any.
 12         THE COURT:  I don't think the problem -- there is a
 13 problem asking about when the test is going to be
 14 performed, because that, I suppose, would be relevant in
 15 terms of knowing when there would be sufficient sample,
 16 since the witness has indicated that apparently she won't
 17 know until the tests are actually performed on any of these
 18 items, whether there's going to be enough for a split, and
 19 We'll just be back here again, doing this in the future, to
 20 try to find out this information.
 21              If she knows when the test is scheduled at
 22 this point, she can tell us.
 23         MS. CLARK:  She --
 24         THE COURT:  If she doesn't know, that's fine.
 25         MS. CLARK:  My point is, your Honor, it doesn't
 26 matter.  Because with respect to all the items, the few
 27 items she's indicated may be capable of providing a split,
 28 she won't have the answer for that, either, until the
 01 testing is done.  So, we're going to be back here anyway,
 02 because one way or another --
 03         THE COURT:  I understand that.  If within her
 04 knowledge, at her fingertips, here on the witness stand,
 05 she happens to know when a particular test is scheduled,
 06 fine, she can answer that.  If she doesn't, we're not going
 07 to go research it anymore.
 08              go ahead, Mr. Shapiro.
 09         MR. SHAPIRO:  Yes.
 10         Q    You may answer the question.
 11         A    We have not had a chance to get back to this
 12 at this time, and schedule the testing.  We spent a lot of
 13 time evaluating the samples.  That's about all we've had
 14 time to do.
 15         Q    When do you anticipate testing that?
 16         A    Probably within the next -- they'll be either
 17 sent out, or done in our laboratory, within the next -- as
 18 soon as it can be arranged, probably -- depends on our
 19 schedule.  We have other courts, so I'd say within the next
 20 three, four weeks.
 21         Q    what is the criteria for sending it out?
 22         A    It depends on whether we believe we can do it
 23 in-house.  Depends on what we're going to do on it.
 24 obviously, if there's the R.F.L.P. that we think needs to
 25 be done, it has to be sent out.  We don't do it in-house.
 26         Q    is That the only reason you would send
 27 It out?
 28         A    No, not necessarily.  if we're going to send
 01 it for R.F.L.P., there's a good chance that we may decide
 02 to send all of it out.  again, that determination hasn't
 03 been done yet.  conventional serology, if it's possible,
 04 would be done in-house.
 05         Q    What tests do you anticipate doing on the
 06 sample?
 07         A    On this sample, it appears that, based on the
 08 small size, that we would be best suited to just attempt
 09 P.C.R., and possibly limit IT TO conventional.  We'll try
 10 as much as possible.  Doesn't appear to be enough for
 11 R.F.L.P.
 12         Q    Limited conventional refers to what?
 13         A    limited means We will pick the best markers
 14 out of conventional serology, whatever they may be, the
 15 most discriminating markers, and just do those.  We
 16 probably cannot do a full battery of conventional serology
 17 tests.
 18         Q    After the serology test is done, how much of
 19 that sample will be consumed?
 20         A    Probably most of it will be consumed.  It will
 21 be extracted.  The extract will still remain, but the
 22 sample as is, the cross squares, will be consumed.
 23         Q    Part of the sample will remain, however?
 24         A    The extract, which means someone has already
 25 worked on it and developed an abstract.
 26         Q    Will any of the original sample be maintained?
 27         A    No, it can't.
 28         Q    After serology, you're left with just an
 01 extract?
 02         A    That's correct.
 03         Q    How much of the extract will be left?
 04         A    I have no idea.
 05         Q    What do you anticipate being left?
 06         A    It's not a volume, at that point.  It depends
 07 on the concentration of the sample.  you can concentrate
 08 that down into essentially nil.  It's a concentration more
 09 than it is a volume.  A volume is sort of irrelevant.  It's
 10 more concentration of sample than volume.
 11              I can go into it, and give you a gallon of
 12 extract, which means nothing, Because it would be so
 13 diluted, you couldn't use it.
 14         Q    In your opinion, is there enough material here
 15 for both your laboratory to do a serology, and for a sample
 16 to be given to an independent laboratory for serology?
 17         A    No.
 18         Q    So, your opinion is there will be none left
 19 for any P.C.R. tests?
 20         A    That's not what I said.  I said there wouldn't
 21 be enough for us to do our work, and someone else to take
 22 original sample from scratch, and do any kind of serology
 23 testing, whether it's P.C.R., A.B.O. or R.F.L.P., et
 24 cetera.
 25         Q    Let me ask you regarding this P.C.R.  that is
 26 a D.N.A. test?
 27         A    Yes, it is.
 28         Q    and Are there false positives in that?
 01         MS. CLARK:  Objection, irrelevant.
 02         THE COURT:  Sustained.
 03              I don't want to get into the evidence.  just
 04 See if there's been tests at this point.
 05         MS. CLARK:  May I make a suggestion to the court?
 06         THE COURT:  Yes.
 07         MS. CLARK:  This is going to take hours, in the
 08 manner in which counsel is PROCEEDING.  I don't know that
 09 evidence is required to be taken in this manner.
 10              Counsel could sit down with his expert, and
 11 talk to this expert, who would be delighted to share all of
 12 her findings with counsel, and any expert counsel chooses
 13 to have with him, so that he can understand what her
 14 position is.  And then we can frame a stipulation as to the
 15 nature of her testimony.
 16              This is going to take all day, in the manner
 17 in which counsel is proceeding.  And I don't think it's
 18 going to assist the court any, in being able to determine
 19 its ruling.
 20         MR. SHAPIRO:  Your Honor, with all due respect, I'm
 21 representing a man who is charged with two counts of first
 22 degree murder, where the people may be asking for the death
 23 penalty.
 24              And if it takes two hours to determine whether
 25 or not there will be enough of a sample for an independent
 26 evaluation, where we believe samples can be contaminated,
 27 where false positives are possible, and where errors can
 28 take place in laboratory procedure, I don't think that's
 01 being excessive at all.
 02         MS. CLARK:  Your Honor, I take exception to the
 03 manner in which counsel has characterized my response.
 04              I am making a suggestion to counsel that would
 05 allow him to have much more information than he is going to
 06 obtain in the manner in which he is proceeding.
 07              If he wants the information so that he can
 08 make a determination as to how he wants to proceed with the
 09 evidence, and what he wants to argue to the court, what I
 10 am suggesting would allow him to learn far more than he
 11 will in this manner.
 12              He needs an expert at his side, so that he can
 13 understand what this witness is telling him.  And the
 14 manner in which he is proceeding, will not permit him do
 15 so.
 16              So, I am actually offering him the opportunity
 17 to learn a great deal more than he is at the current time.
 18 I'm trying to assist counsel in being more efficient and
 19 more effective.
 20         MR. SHAPIRO:  We certainly appreciate that.
 21         THE COURT:  Mr. Shapiro, you know, I'm going to
 22 allow you to present your motion your way.
 23         MR. SHAPIRO:  Thank you.  It's not going to be that
 24 time consuming.  We have been here since 9:30, and so far,
 25 I've been allowed to ask one question.
 26         THE COURT:  I think you asked a few more.
 27         MR. SHAPIRO:  that's on the direct evidence.
 28              There's 60 items, about 30 are blood.  And I
 01 think the responses should take less than a minute.  So, if
 02 we don't have any further interruptions, or suggestions as
 03 to how we should present our case, perhaps we can finish
 04 this.
 05         MS. CLARK:  Excuse me, your Honor.  These are not
 06 interruptions.
 07         THE COURT:  I don't think that's necessary.  Let's
 08 just proceed.
 09         MR. SHAPIRO:  Thank you.
 10         Q    The next item on the blood that you have
 11 LISTED, is item number 4; is that correct?
 12         A    Well, if you're referring to simply swatches
 13 containing red stains that appear to be blood, or that
 14 tested preliminary positive for blood, yes.
 15         Q    That's what I'm referring to.
 16         A    okay, number 4.
 17         Q    that's ITEM NUMBER 4?
 18         A    Uh-huh.
 19         Q    Would you describe ITEM NUMBER 4, please?
 20         A    it's One swatch that is eight millimeters
 21 square, approximately square.  This is all approximation of
 22 these measurements.
 23         Q    Have any tests been conducted on that to date?
 24         A    No.
 25         Q    Do you anticipate any tests being conducted?
 26         A    yes.
 27         Q    When do you anticipate tests being conducted?
 28         A    My answer on the testing would all be the
 01 same, overall.  Maybe that would help.
 02         Q    I'd like to limit it just to this item,
 03 because this has a different quantity than the first, does
 04 it not?
 05         A    Yes, but your battery of tests proceed in the
 06 same manner.  And the extract on all of them has to be done
 07 first, and it's the same extract that is used for both
 08 P.C.R. and R.F.L.P.
 09         Q    If you have no strenuous objection, if you
 10 could address ITEM NUMBER 4 as a separate item, I think
 11 that would be helpful for us.
 12         A    Okay, that's fine.  I was just trying to make
 13 it less confusing for everyone.
 14         Q    Thank you.
 15         A    Could you repeat where we are?
 16         Q    Do you recall the question?
 17         A    No, I do not.
 18         Q    Regarding ITEM NUMBER 4, do you anticipate
 19 doing blood tests on this?
 20         A    Yes.
 21         Q    What blood tests do you anticipate doing?
 22         A    It appears to be enough to do -- we hope to do
 23 both P.C.R., some conventional serology, and possibly
 24 R.F.L.P., which would consume the sample.
 25         Q    If you just did serology, would there be
 26 enough of a sample left for an independent laboratory to
 27 conduct a serology test?
 28         A    Well, serology to me includes D.N.A.,
 01 serology, D.N.A., are PART OF IT.
 02              ARE you talking about conventional serology?
 03         Q    Let's get our terms correctly.  Conventional
 04 serology is blood typing, is that correct?
 05         A    conventional serology is markers, genetic
 06 markers, that is D.N.A., if you will.  They're all genetic
 07 markers.
 08         Q    Let's start with the first test you would
 09 anticipate doing, and use your terms as to what test that
 10 would be.
 11         A    I'm assuming -- What I think we would do here
 12 first, would be to attempt to do D.N.A., and then if
 13 there's any remaining, do conventional serology.
 14         Q    If you did D.N.A. first, do you anticipate --
 15 is there enough to do D.N.A.?
 16         A    I indicated that R.F.L.P., which is the most
 17 consuming sample consuming D.N.A., as opposed to P.C.R.,
 18 which requires less sample, that we would consume the
 19 sample.
 20         Q    You haven't done R.F.L.P. on anything yet,
 21 have you?
 22         A    No.
 23         Q    Let's go over what you've done so far.
 24              So far, you've done serology on samples and
 25 you've done P.C.R. on samples; is that correct?
 26         A    That's correct.
 27         Q    Do you anticipate doing serology on this
 28 sample?  Yes or no?
 01         A    only if there's a sufficient sample.
 02         Q    Do you know, as an expert witness, whether or
 03 not the quantity you have is sufficient sample for
 04 serology?  Yes or no?
 05         A    As I indicated before, if we only did
 06 serology, yes, there's probably enough there to do only
 07 serology.  But we would anticipate to do R.F.L.P. first.
 08         Q    Would you please answer my QUESTION.
 09         MS. CLARK:  Objection.  Counsel IS argumentative.
 10 The witness is attempting to answer HIS question.
 11         THE COURT:  Ask your question again, Mr. SHAPIRO.
 13         Q    Do you have enough of a sample to do standard
 14 serology?  Yes or no?
 15         A    It appears we do.
 16         Q    If you did standard serology, would there be
 17 enough of a sample remaining for an independent laboratory
 18 to do serology?
 19         MS. CLARK:  Objection, irrelevant, your Honor.
 20              Your Honor, This is the point.  We intend to
 21 perform serology, R.F.L.P., P.C.R., poly markers, every
 22 test available on each piece of evidence.  and The only
 23 relevant question is whether, after the completion of all
 24 those tests, there will be sufficient evidence left for a
 25 split.
 26         THE COURT:  The objection is sustained.
 27         MR. SHAPIRO:  may I be heard, your Honor?
 28         THE COURT:  Yes.
 01         MR. SHAPIRO:  Based on the records we have
 02 received, the following tests have been done --
 03         THE COURT:  Have already been done?
 04         MR. SHAPIRO:  Have been done by L.A.P.D.: serology
 05 and a D.N.A. test known as P.C.R.  They have done no other
 06 tests.  I've asked the witness this, and she has
 07 acknowledged that.
 08              What I would like to establish, for the
 09 record, is this:  For those that have not been done yet,
 10 just go piece by piece, if you do serology, would there be
 11 enough for us to Do serology.  If you do P.C.R., would
 12 there be enough for us to do P.C.R.  If you do other tests,
 13 would there be enough for us to do other tests, to make a
 14 record.   Because if these samples are consumed, and we
 15 want to contest the fact that possibly exculpatory evidence
 16 existed, that we were deprived the opportunity of
 17 exploring, that should be part of the court record.
 18         MS. CLARK:  Your Honor, it is irrelevant to our
 19 consideration.  That is exactly the point I don't think
 20 counsel understands.
 21              We have a battery of tests to which this
 22 evidence will be subjected.  The question to be answered is
 23 whether or not, after the tests are completed, there's
 24 sufficient for a split.  That's the question.  Not whether,
 25 after each test is completed.  Because counsel has no right
 26 to dictate to the prosecution the manner in which a case is
 27 investigated.
 28              We will subject the evidence to every test
 01 available, and every test possible.  And at the conclusion
 02 of those tests, if there's sufficient left for a split, we
 03 would be delighted to share it with counsel.
 04              We have made that clear.  this expert is only
 05 here to testify as to whether or not, after the conclusion
 06 of all the testing we deem appropriate, such amount will be
 07 left over.  That's the only thing, not after each test.
 08 After each test makes no difference.
 09         THE COURT:  Mr. Shapiro, I agree with the
 10 prosecution on this point.  Because I'm not in a
 11 position -- I'm not going to put myself in a position to
 12 say they can or cannot perform a given test on a given
 13 sample.  And I don't think what's what the court's position
 14 should be.
 15         MR. SHAPIRO:  your Honor, I want the record just to
 16 be clear that we are requesting samples of all material
 17 relating to blood, that have not yet been tested, for our
 18 own testing.  I will leave it at that.
 19         THE COURT:  I think that the record is clear.
 20         MR. SHAPIRO:  Thank you very much, your Honor.
 21         MS. CLARK:  Let me make the record clear, then,
 22 your Honor, that I have repeatedly advised counsel that I
 23 am going to make every single test ready for observation,
 24 to him and to his experts.
 25              Every test performed, can be observed in every
 26 step of the process by his experts, at his choice.
 27              And if there is some question he has, or
 28 concerns about buffers or solutions being contaminated, we
 01 will be delighted to provide a split of any buffer or
 02 solution that is being used in the conducting of any test.
 03              So, counsel is going to be allowed to examine
 04 every piece of evidence, observe the testing process, to
 05 make sure that evidence is appropriately handled.
 06              And I want to reiterate that invitation on the
 07 record once again.
 08         THE COURT:  I think the record is clear on that,
 09 also.
 10         MS. CLARK:  Thank you.
 11         MR. SHAPIRO:  Thank you very much.
 12         Q    The next item that blood was found is item
 13 number 5; is that correct?
 14         A    That's correct.
 15         Q    have you done tests on that item, or not?
 16         A    No.
 17         Q    Next item where blood was found was item
 18 number 6; is that correct?
 19         A    That's correct.
 20         Q    Have you done testing on that?
 21         A    No.
 22         Q    Next item where blood was found is item Number
 23 9; is that correct?
 24         A    No, I believe number 7.
 25         Q    Number 7, okay.
 26              Have tests been done on that?
 27         A    NO.
 28         Q    What about number 8?
 01         A    No.
 02         Q    Was blood found on both of those?
 03         A    yes.
 04         Q    What's the next item where blood was found?
 05         A    Number 9.
 06         Q    Was testing done on that?
 07         A    Yes.
 08         Q    What was the first test that was done on item
 09 Number 9?
 10         A    The first test, because the sample appears to
 11 be very weak, was P.C.R.
 12         Q    Is there anything remaining of that sample?
 13         A    The glove gives quite a bit of positive area
 14 for blood.  You cannot see it.  You cannot differentiate
 15 how much is there, because of the leather.
 16              Until we actually extract it, and work with
 17 it, we don't know -- yes, there's some remaining, we don't
 18 know how much.
 19         Q    Is there enough remaining, in your opinion,
 20 for an independent laboratory to conduct their own
 21 investigation?
 22         A    Not to split at this time, no.
 23         Q    Is there enough remaining for an independent
 24 laboratory to conduct their investigation?  Yes or no?
 25         MS. CLARK:  Objection, asked and answered.
 26         MR. SHAPIRO:  It was asked, but it wasn't answered.
 27         THE COURT:  Do you know?
 28         THE WITNESS:  Some -- well, I have to clarify
 01 this.  If you mean -- we're not done testing.  So, do you
 02 mean at this time, or when we're done testing?
 04         Q    At this time.
 05         A    At this time?
 06         MS. CLARK:  Objection, irrelevant.
 07         THE COURT:  Sustained.
 09         Q    What additional tests do you intend to do on
 10 this?
 11         A    We're going to do everything possible, and
 12 again, until it's extracted, I believe we'll even try for
 13 D.N.A. -- I mean, I'm sorry, the R.F.L.P. and D.N.A.  but,
 14 we're skeptical there will be sufficient there for that.
 15         Q    Next item I have, and correct me if I'm wrong,
 16 is item 17, where blood was found?
 17         A    No, actually number 11.
 18         Q    11 and 12, you have not analyzed yet; is that
 19 correct?
 20         A    No -- I'm sorry 11 we did not test, 12 we did.
 21         Q    12 you did test?
 22         A    Yeah.  I didn't hear you.  I almost thought
 23 you didn't say 12.  I thought we were going one at a time.
 24         Q    On 12, what tests did you perform?
 25         A    P.C.R.
 26         Q    Is there any sample left on that?
 27         A    Yes, there is.  We're not completed with our
 28 analysis yet.
 01         Q    would there be any sample left, in your
 02 opinion, when you complete your analysis?
 03         MS. CLARK:  Objection, irrelevant.
 04         THE COURT:  you're referring to completing all
 05 analysis; is that correct, Mr. Shapiro?
 06         MR. SHAPIRO:  Yes.
 07         THE COURT:  Overruled.
 08              You can answer that.
 09         THE WITNESS:  I believe I answered this earlier.
 10              I felt that there would be a possible
 11 sufficient amount when we're done, but we won't know until
 12 we're done.
 14         Q    The next item where blood was found is item
 15 17?
 16         A    Actually number 14.
 17         Q    There was analysis done?
 18         A    Yes, P.C.R.
 19         Q    And the sample has been depleted?
 20         A    Yes, it has.  It was very small.
 21         Q    You're saying extract was saved?
 22         A    Yes, we saved the extract.
 23         Q    What does that mean?
 24         A    That means the portion of which you're
 25 concerned about, the contamination in the extraction
 26 process, or at least one of the processes involving D.N.A.,
 27 P.C.R., we extract the sample.  We still have the extract,
 28 we don't need all the extract.
 01         Q    Is a portion of that available for us?
 02         A    We're not done.  We may try to do some more on
 03 that, EXCLUDING poly marker, on the extract.
 04         Q    Do you anticipate a sample will be left for
 05 us?
 06         A    Probably not.  Again, it a very, very weak,
 07 small stain.
 08         Q    The next item where blood was recovered?
 09         A    17 is the reference blood.  That wasn't found.
 10 That's a reference known blood.
 11         Q    Next item where blood was found at the scene,
 12 or at one of the crime scenes?
 13         A    well, item 20.
 14         Q    What about item 18?  Shoes, was any blood
 15 found?
 16         A    No, there wasn't any.  That's the tests -- we
 17 did a search for blood, and didn't find any.  I didn't know
 18 if we were getting into that.
 19         Q    The next item that you have?
 20         A    20.
 21         Q    Has that been tested yet?
 22         A    No.
 23         Q    21?
 24         A    Not tested.
 25         Q    23?
 26         A    22, not tested.
 27         Q    23?
 28         A    23, P.C.R., plus the extract remains.  We
 01 intend to do with that as all others.
 02         Q    Right.  Now, does a sample exist for
 03 re-analysis of P.C.R.?
 04         A    There's a small amount of the extract, yes.
 05         Q    24?
 06         A    No, not tested.
 07         Q    Next item?
 08         A    25, we did P.C.R.
 09         Q    Is there a sample left?
 10         A    There's A very small amount of sample left,
 11 about -- actually, this is small amount of fibers, small
 12 amount of stain, that's kind of like the glove.  It's
 13 difficult, until we extract it, to know how strong it is.
 14         Q    will that be available to the defense?
 15         A    We don't know until we send it out for poly
 16 markers.  The extract will always be available.  Whether
 17 it's sufficient for testing, I don't know.
 18         Q    The next item that you recovered --
 19         A    26.
 20         Q    -- Regarding blood?
 21              That has not been tested yet?
 22         A    No.
 23         Q    Next item?
 24         A    28 are some threads.  The sample is so small,
 25 it's not even what I consider a swatch.  It's two or three
 26 little cloth threads, with red stain on them.  That has not
 27 been tested.
 28         Q    Next item is 29?
 01         A    Correct.
 02         Q    That has not been tested?
 03         A    No.
 04         Q    Next item 30?
 05         A    It's not been tested.
 06         Q    31?
 07         A    P.C.R. only, and the extract remains.  Plus
 08 one small square, and we don't anticipate any of that being
 09 left, except the extract.
 10         Q    At the present time, there remains a sample?
 11         A    That's correct.
 12              As you can see in the column, it indicates
 13 what's still there.  That's your two by three millimeter
 14 piece.
 15         Q    Next item?
 16         A    Item 32.
 17         Q    Has that been tested yet?
 18         A    No.  There's several little threads.
 19         Q    Next item is item 33, carpeting?
 20         A    Item 33 has a -- has blood in several very
 21 small areas of some pattern resembling -- resembling
 22 possibly a shoe print.  So, that's -- we're holding off on
 23 that until we can decide how to progress and develop, and
 24 look at the shoe print, as well as the blood, without
 25 losing either one.  We did do --
 26         Q    What tests have been done on that?
 27         A    We did separate little stain of one thread.
 28 We did P.C.R.
 01         Q    Is the same size sample available for the
 02 defense?
 03         A    It's threads all over the carpet.  It's carpet
 04 with small little spatters of stain on them.
 05         Q    Would that be available to the defense?
 06         A    Not at this time.  I think it's very weak.
 07 And we haven't done the shoe print, either.
 08         Q    Item 34, you have not analyzed yet?
 09         A    We did P.C.R.
 10         Q    you did?
 11         A    Uh-huh; that's correct.
 12         Q    And is there anything left on that?
 13         A    There's a two by three millimeter piece, that
 14 we have yet to continue with.
 15         Q    Is that enough for the defense to use for
 16 independent analysis?
 17         A    I don't know, because we're not finished.
 18 We're not finished on any of these, actually, except the
 19 one that was consumed.  We probably can't do anything more
 20 on that.  But we're going to attempt to, anyway.
 21         Q    At the present time, is there enough for a
 22 sample for re-analysis?
 23         A    Yes.
 24         Q    Thank you.
 25         MS. CLARK:  Objection, that's irrelevant.
 26         THE COURT:  Sustained.
 28         Q    Next item?
 01         MS. CLARK:  May I just have a continuing objection
 02 to all of these questions, concerning the request for
 03 whether there would be sufficient split after one or two
 04 tests, before all the testing is completed?
 05              AND Counsel keeps going back to this, and I'm
 06 getting tired of objecting to the same thing.  And the
 07 court keeps sustaining it.
 08              He's asking the irrelevant issue, which is
 09 whether, after each test, is there going to be enough left.
 10 The question is after all tests is there enough left.
 11         THE COURT:  Miss Clark, if you have an objection,
 12 you have to make it question BY question.
 13         MS. CLARK:  all right.
 15         Q    Next item, please, with blood?
 16         A    Number 37.
 17         Q    That is a glove?
 18         A    it's A glove, and there are -- appears to be
 19 stains on it that we have not tested yet.  But, they appear
 20 to be blood -- I'm sorry, they preliminarily tested
 21 positive for blood.
 22         Q    Do you know the size of that sample?
 23         A    it's very small.  There is a few drops.
 24         Q    What tests do you anticipate?
 25         A    as many as possible.  Probably can't do
 26 R.F.L.P., but we are going to certainly have it evaluated
 27 further.
 28         Q    When do you anticipate doing that?
 01         A    We are going to begin it early in the week,
 02 probably Monday, by determining who's going to be -- who is
 03 going to do what testing.
 04         Q    Is there a standard laboratory that L.A.P.D.
 05 uses for independent testing?
 06         A    No, there's not.  Well, there's more than one.
 07 We use two or three labs for different types of testing.
 08         Q    For R.F.L.P., who do you use?
 09         A    We most often use CELLMARK.
 10         Q    Next item where any blood material was found?
 11         A    Number 41, I believe we did P.C.R.
 12         Q    What was the size of that sample?
 13         A    There is a very, very -- there's several
 14 little swatches.  There's three of them, but they're very
 15 weak.
 16         Q    Do you anticipate doing any more?
 17         A    We are going to try to do poly marker,
 18 probably.  That's our hope, yes.  We are going to attempt
 19 to do that.
 20         Q    Next item?
 21         A    Number 42, P.C.R. has already been done.
 22         Q    Do you have the results of that?
 23         MS. CLARK:  Objection, irrelevant.
 24         MR. SHAPIRO:  I don't think we've gotten that yet.
 25 I want to just check, just for information only.
 26         Q    Any sample remain --
 27         MS. CLARK:  Objection withdrawn.
 28         THE COURT:  She's withdrawn the objection.
 01              Do you have the result of that PCR, number 42?
 02         THE WITNESS:  I don't know if I have them.  I DO
 03 know I gave them to the defense last week, at that same
 04 meeting.
 05         MR. SHAPIRO:  My notes don't have the accuracy of
 06 that result, your Honor.
 07         Q    Any sample --
 08         MS. CLARK:  Sorry, I didn't understand.
 09         MR. SHAPIRO:  We'll withdraw the question.
 10         Q    Any sample remain of that?
 11         A    Yes.  That's one of the ones that we're
 12 hopeful, after testing, after we complete our testing, that
 13 there may be some available for the defense, and -- but
 14 we're not sure.
 15         Q    Next item?
 16         A    Number 44.  Oh, I'm sorry.  I'm starting to
 17 skip to what we already did.  I'm losing track in this
 18 melee of samples here.
 19              Number 43, there are four swatches.  And out
 20 of those FOUR, they're weak in color.  And we anticipate
 21 that the entire sample will be consumed when we're done
 22 testing.
 23         Q    Next item?
 24         A    Number 44.  There are several swatches, and
 25 it's possible, we're hoping there may be some left when we
 26 complete our analysis.  We haven't done anything, we're not
 27 done.
 28         Q    Next item?
 01         A    Number 45, we don't anticipate any being left.
 02 We have not tested it.
 03         Q    Next item?
 04         A    Number 47.  We have done P.C.R.  we feel that
 05 there, hopefully, based on what's there now, when we're
 06 done testing, that there will be some left.  Can't
 07 guarantee it, but looks promising.
 08         Q    48?
 09         A    48?  Probably will not be any left when we've
 10 completed.  We have done P.C.R.
 11         Q    49?
 12         A    49, we have done P.C.R. and conventional, and
 13 plan on R.F.L.P.  It's ready to send out.
 14         Q    50?
 15         A    By the way, on 49 we anticipate -- that's one
 16 of those we anticipate there will be enough left,
 17 hopefully, presuming everything goes well for the defense.
 18              Number 50, possibly.  It's a little weaker
 19 than number 49, but there may be some left.
 20         Q    Number 51?
 21         A    Number 51, we haven't done anything.  We don't
 22 anticipate any being left, though, when we are completed.
 23         Q    Number 52?
 24         A    We've done P.C.R., and we feel that R.F.L.P.
 25 will consume the sample.
 26         Q    Is the next number 54?
 27         A    Yes.  Number 54 we have not done it.  There's
 28 several little swatches, but we feel our R.F.L.P. will
 01 consume the sample.
 02         Q    Number 55?
 03         A    not tested.  It's very, very small.  We feel
 04 that there's not enough for R.F.L.P. and P.C.R. and
 05 conventional, and poly marker, of course, is part of the
 06 P.C.R. technique, will be all that will be done on that
 07 one.
 08         Q    Number 56?
 09         A    None left, but we feel R.F.L.P. will probably
 10 consume the sample.  So that means R.F.L.P. and P.C.R.
 11         Q    Number 57?
 12         A    That's -- 57 is a label found on a walkway, I
 13 believe.  I made a separate note of this.  it's difficult,
 14 again, because of the label, to say how strong the stain
 15 is, how much interference from the label.  But assuming
 16 everything goes well, there may be enough left when we're
 17 done.  We haven't done anything with it yet.
 18         Q    59 and 60 are CORONER samples?
 19         A    That's correct.
 20         Q    does that complete the blood that's been
 21 submitted to you to date?
 22         A    No.  I also have number 72, which is coroner's
 23 sample.
 24         Q    What else?
 25         A    Number 82, which is a coroner's sample.
 26         Q    Anything else?
 27         A    We have not -- any of these were in the column
 28 that indicates "split," where I have written yes or no,
 01 that means we may do something with them.
 02              Number 84-A, we've examined the nail
 03 scrapings, and we think that possibly there won't be any
 04 sample left when we're done.  But possibly, we may be able
 05 to do P.C.R., and one or two conventional tests.
 06              And 84-B, these are the left and right-hand
 07 nail scrapings.  Same thing, 84-C, the nail clippings,
 08 there won't be any left, but we may be able to do P.C.R.
 09 and conventional.
 10              Number 84-D are the right hand nail clippings.
 11 and There may be enough -- it's even questionable there may
 12 be enough there to do our R.F.L.P., but we don't anticipate
 13 there being anything left when we're done.
 14              number 85-A are some scrapings we received
 15 from the coroner, that they scraped.  We'll have to refer
 16 to their report.  We believe we can do P.C.R. and
 17 conventional.  Again, we don't anticipate enough being
 18 left.
 19              And 85-B are some scrapings, again, and
 20 anticipate P.C.R., possibly some conventional.  And don't
 21 anticipate any being left over for the defense.
 22         Q    Does that complete the blood?
 23         A    At this time -- At this time we have not
 24 looked at -- like I indicated -- as I indicated earlier in
 25 my testimony, we have not examined some of the evidence
 26 that was recently collected.
 27         Q    May I direct your attention now to the hair
 28 samples?
 01         A    Sure.
 02         Q    first one you refer to is item Number 9, the
 03 gloves.
 04         A    Item Number 9, there's hairs removed from item
 05 Number 9, which are item number 19 and item number 110.
 06         Q    have you made a determination as to the origin
 07 of those hairs?
 08         A    No, we have not.  We don't have the hair
 09 sample to compare those hairs to yet.
 10              I'M Sorry, you just want a -- did you want a
 11 body origin?
 12         Q    Yes?
 13         A    I don't have that with me.  I don't know if I
 14 gave that to -- it's in process.  I don't know if that's
 15 one of the completed reports that I brought with me last
 16 night, which I know the prosecution hasn't had time to
 17 review.
 18         Q    Have you determined those to be Caucasian
 19 hairs?
 20         A    I can't tell you that without referring to the
 21 reports.
 22         Q    Can you look at the report?
 23         A    I don't have it with me, because no one has
 24 reviewed it yet, and I know you don't have it.
 25         MS. CLARK:  Your Honor, I was just provided this
 26 this morning.  This is a package for counsel, pursuant to
 27 the request he made when we were last in court, and I'm
 28 going to turn it over to counsel, and give him an
 01 opportunity to look at it.
 02              I haven't seen it myself.  We all just got
 03 these packages.
 04              So, I'd ask counsel to acknowledge receipt of
 05 it on the record, and --
 06         THE COURT:  That package is from the crime lab?
 07         THE WITNESS:  Yes, it is.
 08         MS. CLARK:  It's from the crime lab.  last time we
 09 were in court, If the court recalls, I promised to turn
 10 over the records requested verbally, and I just got them.
 11              I ask that counsel sign where it's indicated,
 12 and date it, and he can take possession of that.  And I
 13 hope I can get mine at some point later today.
 14         THE WITNESS:  Just so -- if I may interject, what
 15 is not there is the protocol.  We're still copying those.
 16 Those are volumes, and we hope to have them early next
 17 week, Monday or Tuesday.
 18         MS. CLARK:  If you can inform THE court what you
 19 mean by protocol.
 20         THE WITNESS:  The protocol for D.N.A., and
 21 proficiency testing for D.N.A., P.C.R., and also
 22 conventional serology.
 23         MS. CLARK:  Does that have anything to do with the
 24 results for testing conducted in this case?
 25         THE WITNESS:  It does, but it's not -- you haven't
 26 talked -- We haven't talked about it here today.
 27         MS. CLARK:  No.  The point being, does that --
 28 that's a protocol you follow in all cases; is that right?
 01         THE WITNESS:  That's correct.
 02         MS. CLARK:  not just for this case?
 03         THE WITNESS:  That's correct.
 04         MR. SHAPIRO:  Your Honor --
 05         THE COURT:  Yes?
 06         MR. SHAPIRO:  -- I wonder, based on what the court
 07 indicated the schedule would be, if we might take a break,
 08 so we can review these records, before we continue
 09 questioning.
 10              I anticipate very, very limited questions,
 11 only on the remaining four hair samples, the amount.  And
 12 for preparation, so that the records can be looked at over
 13 the break, we'd like to know the number of hairs, whether
 14 they are follicles or shafts of hair, where they were
 15 found, and how many of them there are.
 16         MS. CLARK:  Your Honor, perhaps the reports that
 17 counsel has been given indicate all that, and if that's the
 18 case, then --
 19         THE COURT:  Right.  And if that information is
 20 contained within what you have, you're going to have the
 21 answer to that.
 22         MR. SHAPIRO:  If we do.  If we don't, those are the
 23 things that will be questioned.
 24         THE WITNESS:  If you haven't got the report, I
 25 can't officially, because it hasn't been verified.  That
 26 means those items are not done yet, not completed, we're
 27 still working on them.
 28         THE COURT:  You'll have to determine that, and
 01 maybe you can sort of confer, if you need, to off the
 02 record, with regard to some of these items.
 03              I don't think it necessarily has to be part of
 04 this motion that we're doing now.
 05         MR. SHAPIRO:  Thank you very much.
 06         THE COURT:  all right.  Then we'll break at this
 07 time.
 08         MS. CLARK:  I'm sorry, your Honor.  just one more.
 09 we received this from GTE.  it Looks like a response from
 10 the subpoena duces tecum.  and It been DELIVERED To me by
 11 the CLERK, in a sealed condition, which is the manner it
 12 was delivered to her, I take it.
 13              Yes.  and I'm going to ask to open it now on
 14 the record, in open court, so counsel can observe the
 15 opening, and the contents of the envelope.  If I may.
 16         THE COURT:  Yes.
 17         MS. CLARK:  Thank you.
 18         MR. SHAPIRO:  Your Honor, can this be possibly be
 19 done in the appropriate manner?
 20         MS. CLARK:  This is the appropriate manner, your
 21 Honor.
 22         THE COURT:  I don't know that it has to be on the
 23 record.
 24         MR. SHAPIRO:  Seems to me like a little bit of
 25 grandstanding.
 26         MS. CLARK:  Excuse me.  I can't believe I heard
 27 Mr. Shapiro say that.  I'd rather conduct everything on the
 28 record, your Honor, in open court.
 01         THE COURT:  Go ahead and open it.  Go ahead.
 02         MS. CLARK:  May the record reflect I have now
 03 broken the seal.  Opening the envelope, and I've retrieved
 04 what appears to be a one-page letter.  I'm going to show to
 05 counsel.
 06         THE COURT:  All right, miss Clark.  My clerk,
 07 Alicia, informs me that came, accompanied by another larger
 08 packet of records, which she is holding there, which you'll
 09 want to review.  I really prefer that you, if possible, can
 10 review those records off the record.
 11         MS. CLARK:  I'd been delighted to review them off
 12 the record.  All I want to indicate now is that they're in
 13 a sealed condition, and we may open them, and duplicate
 14 them for counsel.
 15         THE COURT:  Assuming that both sides were agreeable
 16 to that.
 17         MR. SHAPIRO:  That is agreeable.  That's the proper
 18 procedure.
 19         MS. CLARK:  Excuse me, your Honor.  I don't think
 20 I've engaged in any improper procedures thus far.  I don't
 21 appreciate counsel's editorializing.
 22         THE COURT:  All right.
 23              Now, today, only because of certain matters
 24 that do not concern the rest of you, we are going to be
 25 breaking until 2:00 o'clock.
 26              I anticipate the following schedule, and I
 27 assume that most of you then, advised of it.  That is, that
 28 the court intends to start at 9:00 o'clock and go until
 01 12:00, with a 15-minute break somewhere during the mid part
 02 of that morning session.
 03              The court intends to, under normal
 04 circumstances, continue with the proceeding at 1:30, with a
 05 15-minute break somewhere around 3:00 o'clock or so, and
 06 concluding the proceeding at 4:30.  That's what I
 07 anticipate, and that's the schedule, Hopefully, that we
 08 will be able to abide by, generally speaking.
 09              I'm going to ask everyone's cooperation with
 10 regard to the breaks we take, the 15-minute break.  I would
 11 very much like to see them remaining 15 minutes as opposed
 12 to 20, 25 minutes, 30 minutes, 40 minutes.
 13              It's really going to be up to you folks, to
 14 make sure that you are back in your seats, and all the
 15 necessary counsel and so forth, are back, so that we can
 16 keep this matter moving along.  So, I would request the
 17 cooperation of everyone, so that we can handle this matter
 18 as smoothly as possible.
 19              At this point in time, we will be in recess
 20 until 2:00 o'clock.  We'll conclude this motion, hopefully,
 21 shortly thereafter.  And we'll begin with the other
 22 motions, including the motion to suppress at that time.
 23         MR. SHAPIRO:  Thank you very much, your Honor.
 24         MS. CLARK:  Thank you, your Honor.
 27                  (recess at 11:40 a.m.)
 04                                        )  no. BA097211
 05                            PLAINTIFF,  )
 05                                        )
 06             VS.                        )
 06                                        )
 07                                        )
 07 ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON,                )
 08   AKA O.J. SIMPSON,                    )
 08                                        )
 09                                        )
 09                                        )
 10                            DEFENDANT.  )
 10 _______________________________________)
 12                        )   SS
 22           DATED THIS 30th DAY OF June, 1994.
 24                _____________________________________
 24                      ARNELLA I. SIMS, CSR #2896
 25                       OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
 27                _____________________________________
 27                       ROSE FORBESS, CSR #4853
 28                       OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
 04                                        )
 05                            PLAINTIFF,  )
 05                                        )
 06                 VS.                    )   VOLUME 2
 06                                        )
 07                                        )
 07 ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON,                )
 08   AKA O.J. SIMPSON,                    )
 08                                        )
 09                                        )
 09                            DEFENDANT.  )
 10 _______________________________________)
 13                 THURSDAY, JUNE 30, 1994
 16                              WILLIAM HODGMAN
 17                              DEPUTIES DISTRICT ATTORNEY
 19                              PRIVATELY RETAINED COUNSEL
 26                              ARNELLA I. SIMS, CSR #2896
 26                              ROSE FORBESS, CSR #4853
 27                              OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
 01                     EVIDENCE MOTIONS
 02                        I N D E X
 04 MICHELE KESTLER                  6       14       24
 10                          -O0O-
 12                     MOTION EXHIBITS
 15 1 - "Proceedings of the                    20
 15     International Symposium
 16     on Forensic Hair
 16     Comparisons" article
 17 2 - "Forensic Science, an                  20
 18     Introduction to
 18     Criminalistics" article
 01                   PRELIMINARY HEARING
 02                        I N D E X
 04 ALLEN WATTENBERG        38      59
 05 JOSE CAMACHO            64      80       86
 06 JOHN DE BELLO           88      97      101      103
 07                                         104
 11                          -O0O-
 14                         EXHIBITS
 17 1 - BOARD WITH FOUR PHOTOS                 51
 18 2 - PHOTO                                  89
 19 3 - PHOTO                                  89
 01                 LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA
 02                 THURSDAY, JUNE 30, 1994
 03                        2:00 P.M.
 04                          -OOO-
 06      THE COURT:  Good afternoon.
 07      MR. SHAPIRO:  Good afternoon.
 08      MR. UELMEN:  Good afternoon, Your Honor.
 09      THE COURT:  The record should reflect the defendant
 10 is present with counsel.  The people are represented.
 11           And I guess we can continue with the witness,
 12 Ms. Kestler.
 13      MS. CLARK:  Yes, Your Honor.
 14           May I turn over some discovery while we're
 15 waiting for her to come in?
 16      THE COURT:  Yes.
 17      MS. CLARK:  Pages 539 to 614, I'm handing to
 18 defense counsel now.   A copy of the S.D.T.'S, the
 19 originals of which I've returned to the court clerk.
 20           And I'd like to indicate to the court that
 21 I've given a copy to the court for review an article on
 22 "proceedings of the international symposium on forensic
 23 HAIR COMPARISONS."   I gave a copy of this to counsel
 24 this morning.
 25           Specifically directing the Court's attention
 26 to a page numbered 11 on it, the second paragraph, where
 27 it's indicated that, "it is recommended that a known
 28 hair sample -- "
 01      MR. SHAPIRO:  Your Honor, I'm going to object to
 02 reading this.   This is a document that's a hearsay
 03 document.   It's dated June 25, 1985.   I think we
 04 should have some material a little more recent than nine
 05 years ago.   And if there is to be testimony, it should
 06 come from the witness stand, not from the prosecutor.
 07      THE COURT:  Is Ms. Kestler prepared to testify in
 08 some fashion regarding this particular document?
 09      MS. CLARK:  Yes, Your Honor.   And I --
 10      THE COURT:  I'll wait until she refers to it
 11 specifically.
 12      MS. CLARK:  As I understand the law, an expert is
 13 entitled to rely on articles and periodicals and that
 14 that kind of hearsay is admissible through the expert
 15 testimony.   And I was simply trying to assist the court
 16 in directing its attention to the specific area that is
 17 in question now.
 18      THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.
 19      MS. CLARK:  I apologize, Your Honor.   It would
 20 appear the witness may have gone upstairs instead of
 21 coming straight to the court.   She should be here
 22 momentarily.
 23      THE COURT:  All right.
 24         (There was a pause in the proceedings.)
 25      THE COURT:  Ms. Kestler, if you could re-take your
 26 seat on the witness stand.
 28 \ \
 01                     Michele Kestler,
 02 called as a witness by and on behalf of the People,
 03 having been previously called and duly sworn, resumed
 04 the stand and was examined and testified further as
 05 follows:
 06      THE COURT:  You have previously been sworn and
 07 continue under oath.
 08      THE WITNESS:  yes, Your Honor.   Thank you.
 09      THE COURT:  Mr. Shapiro.
 10      MR. SHAPIRO:  Thank you very much, Your Honor.
 12                    CROSS-EXAMINATION
 15      Q    Mrs. Kestler, the information that we have
 16 just reviewed that was handed to us just before the noon
 17 recess consists of a one-page document, dated 6/29/94,
 18 that lists four items as hairs and fibers.
 19           Do you know which document I'm referring to?
 20      A    Not off  -- no.    Could you tell me the item
 21 numbers?
 22      MR. SHAPIRO:  May I approach the witness,
 23 Your Honor?
 24      THE COURT:  Yes.
 25      THE WITNESS:  Oh.   This is a property report,
 26 yes.
 28      Q    Are you familiar with that document?
 01      A    Yes, I am.
 02      Q    Are there any other documents that have been
 03 prepared, to your knowledge, that relate to the hairs
 04 that were removed from items 9, 27, 37 and 38?
 05      A    Yes.   In that same package along with that
 06 document there was a report -- or two reports on hair
 07 items in regard to those property items booked.
 08      MR. SHAPIRO:  May I just have a moment to get
 09 those, Your Honor?
 10      THE COURT:  Yes.
 11      THE WITNESS:  Plus, I also was able to review and
 12 complete, for our hair analyst, two more reports on two
 13 more items of hair that we discussed earlier this
 14 morning and I said were awaiting my approval, and I have
 15 copies here.
 16      THE COURT:  So you're indicating you have some
 17 additional discovery for both counsel?
 18      THE WITNESS:  Yes, I do.
 19      THE COURT:  Mr. Shapiro and Ms. Clark, do you want
 20 to approach the witness stand and pick up your copies of
 21 that?
 22      MS. CLARK:  Thank you, Your Honor.
 23      MR. SHAPIRO:  Thank you very much.
 24      THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honor.
 25      THE COURT:  All right.
 26      MR. SHAPIRO:  May I just have a moment, Your Honor?
 27      THE COURT:  Yes.
 28 \ \
 01 By mr. shapiro:
 02      Q    Could you summarize for us, please, the number
 03 of hairs that you recall were found in item number 9.
 04      A    I believe you have the copy of the report.
 05 I'd have to review that.
 06      Q    You don't have that?
 07      A    No, I don't have that.
 08      Q    Let me give you all these copies and maybe we
 09 can work together.
 10      A    Sure, that's no problem.
 11      MR. SHAPIRO:  May I approach the witness stand,
 12 Your Honor?
 13      THE COURT:  If you keep your voice up, yes.
 14      MR. SHAPIRO:  Thank you, Your Honor.
 15      THE COURT:  Just to remind me, is item number 9 the
 16 glove?
 17      THE WITNESS:  Yes.
 18      MR. SHAPIRO:  Yes.
 19      THE COURT:  Thank you.
 20      THE WITNESS:  And item number 19 were items removed
 21 from number 9.
 22           Just let me make sure of that before I say
 23 something wrong here.
 24           Yes.   Item number 19 contained hairs and
 25 fibers removed from item number 9.   So this report
 26 here, the first report, is referring to item number 19.
 27 And in that item there were three human head hairs,
 28 blond in color, and they ranged in length from 3.5
 01 to 29.5 centimeters, and exhibited predominantly
 02 Caucasian characteristics.   They also exhibited
 03 indications of possible chemical treatment, bleaching.
 04 And none of them had roots.
 05           And then there were also several fibers and
 06 animal hairs which we haven't had time to characterize
 07 further at this time.
 09      Q    Would you be able to give us the same summary,
 10 please, for item number 27, the cap that was found on
 11 the driver's floor of the Bronco.
 12      A    Surely.   Item number 111 contained -- the new
 13 item number 111 is the hairs and fibers removed from
 14 item number 27, the cap.
 15           and that contains among the hairs was six
 16 human head hairs ranging in color from brown to black,
 17 ranging in length from 1.1 to 2.2 centimeters, and
 18 exhibiting predominantly Negroid characteristics.
 19           Two of these hairs have intact roots and the
 20 remaining four hairs do not have intact roots.
 21           And then it goes on to talk about several
 22 fibers and animal hairs which we have not characterized
 23 at this time.   And some insect activity which is --
 24      Q    Regarding the two hairs which are intact with
 25 roots --
 26      A    Um-hum.
 27      Q    --  Would it be possible to have your
 28 laboratory keep one and share one with an independent
 01 laboratory?
 02      A    Not at this time, because there's no guarantee
 03 that with one hair you can do P.C.R. or any kind of  --
 04 it's not necessarily conclusive.   We made need both to
 05 do D.N.A. analysis on.   One is not always enough.
 06      Q    With the four hairs that do not have roots  --
 07      A    Yes.
 08      Q    --  would it be possible to share those for
 09 independent analysis?
 10      A    Well, I believe rather than -- we are going
 11 to -- our approach to that normally would be -- let me
 12 just put it in that form -- would be re-analyze all four
 13 because we don't know whether they're similar at this
 14 point, came from similar  -- same individual or could
 15 have come from the same individual.
 16           We would like to compare all four of those
 17 hairs to our exemplars, and then using via a master
 18 criminalist or something to that effect, allow your
 19 laboratory to have all four of those hairs or whatever,
 20 and they could be viewed by you, all four of them.
 21           You can't split the hairs.   I think we went
 22 through this.   I heard this on the news.
 23      THE COURT:  Yes, we did go through that.
 24           Hairs are not consumed in the analysis?
 25      THE WITNESS:  No, they're not, not in microscopic
 26 analysis.
 27      THE COURT:  So as far as that goes, once you did
 28 whatever you were going to do with the hairs, the ones
 01 without the roots, they could go to the defense and they
 02 could do whatever they wanted to do with the hairs,
 03 assuming they weren't destroyed in some way in the
 04 analysis?
 05      THE WITNESS:  That's correct.
 07      Q    The ones without the roots are not consumed in
 08 the analysis.
 09      A    Just the one part that is consumed in the
 10 a D.N.A. test.   The rest remains.
 11      Q    With regard to number 37, would you be kind
 12 enough to tell us the type of evidence recovered from
 13 that item, please.
 14      A    That must be the report that you have.   Or do
 15 I still have it?   I have 58.
 16           Thank you.
 17      Q    You're welcome.
 18      A    Well, I have some notes on that.   Apparently
 19 that must be one of the reports -- I thought that was in
 20 your package that I gave you yesterday.   Item
 21 number 37?
 22           Oh, that's the one that's not completed.
 23 Okay.   That analysis is not completed at this time.
 24 We're still working on that.
 25      Q    So you cannot tell us how many hairs --
 26      A    No, I cannot.
 27      Q    --  Or what type of hairs they were?
 28      A    No.   That's still being worked on.
 01      Q    Do you know when you'll have that result?
 02      A    Hopefully by Monday.
 03      Q    And regarding item number 38.
 04      A    Item number 38, that was completed.   Item
 05 number 113 are hairs, fibers, et cetera, and debris
 06 removed from item number 38, and the blue knit cap --
 07      THE WITNESS:  item number 38 is the blue knit cap.
 08      THE COURT:  Thank you.
 09      THE WITNESS:  Let me just get -- summarize down to
 10 the important part.
 11           There were 34 human hairs.   32 are consistent
 12 with head hair and two are consistent with body hair.
 13 among the 32 head hairs, 25 are dark reddish brown to
 14 black in color, ranging in length from 0.7 to 3.5
 15 centimeters, and exhibiting predominantly Negroid
 16 characteristics.
 17           Additionally, four of these 25 hairs have
 18 intact roots while the remaining 21 do not.   And these
 19 came from both the interior and exterior surfaces of the
 20 knit cap.
 22      Q    Of the four -- I'm sorry.   Complete your
 23 answer, I'm sorry.
 24      A    Okay, thank you.
 25           From the remaining seven head hairs, five are
 26 blond in color and range in length from 3.0 to 8.5
 27 centimeters and exhibit predominantly Caucasian
 28 characteristics, and exhibit indications of chemical
 01 treatment, I.e., bleaching.
 02           These hairs were all located on the exterior
 03 surface of the cap.   The remaining two head hairs also
 04 located on the exterior surface of item 38 are brown and
 05 reddish brown in color, 1.0 and 0.9 centimeters in
 06 length respectively, and exhibit predominantly Caucasian
 07 characteristics.
 08           None of the above described seven hairs have
 09 intact roots.   And then there's several animal hairs
 10 and fibers which we have not characterized at this time.
 11      Q    Was there any blood found on item number 38?
 12      A    Not on 38 per se at this time.   We removed
 13 the hairs and fibers and have not done a complete blood
 14 search for it, but I believe it was laying near blood at
 15 the crime scene, and so it wouldn't surprise me if it's
 16 contaminated with blood.
 17      Q    Of the four hairs that were inside that
 18 appeared to be Afro American hair that have roots  --
 19      A    They have Negroid characteristics.   They are
 20 not necessarily African American hair.
 21           That's a characteristic -- terminology used in
 22 hair only, and I'm afraid they've never changed it, so
 23 we have to stick with that.
 24      Q    Of those four hairs  --
 25      A    Um-hum.
 26      Q    --  Are any of those available to an
 27 independent examiner?
 28      A    Again, not at this time.
 01           The ones with roots?
 02      Q    Yes.
 03      A    I'm sorry.   The ones with roots, again, until
 04 the D.N.A. is done, I prefer not to  -- we don't know.
 05 We don't know the strength.   We don't know how old the
 06 hairs are, so we don't know how strong the D.N.A. would
 07 be in the root.
 08           Again, at this time, we wouldn't want to give
 09 them up until our testing is done.
 10      Q    Where will that testing take place?
 11      A    I believe  -- we haven't totally decided where
 12 we're going to do it yet, but it probably will be done
 13 by an independent lab.
 14      MR. SHAPIRO:  Your Honor, may I retrieve the
 15 documents that were given to me?
 16      THE COURT:  Certainly.
 17      MR. SHAPIRO:  And I have no further questions.
 18 Thank you.
 19      THE COURT:  All right.
 20           Ms. Clark, do you have some additional
 21 questions of the witness?
 22      MS. CLARK:  I do, Your Honor, very briefly.
 24                   REDIRECT EXAMINATION
 27      Q    Ms. Kestler, with respect to the knit -- with
 28 respect to the knit cap, item number 38, you indicate
 01 that on the interior of the cap was located 34 human
 02 hairs?
 03      A    The 34 hairs, as she stated here, that were
 04 from the interior and exterior of the cap.
 05      Q    That's total.
 06      A    That's total.
 07      Q    Okay.   Okay.   Two of those 34 hairs are
 08 consistent with body hair.   Is that  --
 09      A    Two are consistent with body hair.
 10      Q    And were those two that were consistent with
 11 body hair found to be demonstrative of Negroid or
 12 Caucasian characteristics?
 13      A    She didn't characterize them at this point,
 14 and she also didn't -- this is our hair analyst -- we
 15 have not had time to look at them to see if we can tell
 16 that.   Very often body hair is so fine and so small
 17 it's impossible to determine origin.
 18      Q    And with respect to body hair, is that capable
 19 of being -- do those two hairs have roots?
 20      A    Apparently it's not indicated here, and I
 21 don't have her notes.   I just realized that she did not
 22 indicate roots or no roots.
 23      Q    Can that be determined?
 24      A    Yes.
 25      Q    And then of the 32 head hairs, 25 were found
 26 to have Negroid characteristics?
 27      A    Yes.   That's correct, counsel.
 28      Q    And those came from the interior of the cap?
 01      A    No, those are both from the interior and
 02 exterior.
 03      Q    And then the hairs that were determined to be
 04 primarily Caucasian, chemically treated blond hairs,
 05 those were from the exterior?
 06      A    Exterior.
 07      Q    Is it your plan at this time to subject all of
 08 the hairs to both P.C.R. and microscopic analysis?
 09      A    The only hairs that would be subjected to
 10 P.C.R. analysis would be those with the roots.   The
 11 rest would be microscopic examination.
 12      Q    Okay.   And based on -- in order to perform a
 13 microscopic analysis and comparison of hairs, how many
 14 head hairs do you need to retrieve from a suspect for
 15 the purpose of comparison?
 16      A    I have a couple of references here, and the
 17 references all indicate 30 to 100 hairs.
 18           One of my references is from a book, "forensic
 19 science, an introduction to criminalistics," by Peter
 20 De forest, Robert gaensslen and Henry C. Lee.
 21      THE COURT:  I'm sorry, is that the same Henry Lee
 22 that we had testimony concerning?
 23      THE WITNESS:  Yes, it is.   It's the only Henry Lee
 24 I know.   I'm assuming that's the one I was questioned
 25 about.
 26           On page 211  --
 28      Q    Of that book?
 01      A    Of that book.
 02      Q    coauthored by Henry Lee?
 03      A    yes, of which I have extra copies here, if
 04 anybody wants to have one.
 05      MS. CLARK:  May I approach, Your Honor?
 06      THE COURT:  Yes.
 07      THE WITNESS:  On page 211, the first known samples
 08 of hair -- and we're talking about microscopic
 09 examination here, not D.N.A. analysis.  They're two
 10 separate -- entirely separate types of analysis needing
 11 separate samples.
 12           "Known samples of hair should be given careful
 13 consideration.   If questioned head hairs are to be
 14 submitted, then the known sample should contain
 15 representative samples from different parts of the
 16 scalp.   Ordinarily, the hairs should not be cut.
 17 Vigorous combing or massaging of scalp will usually
 18 yield 30 to 40 --" and he uses the term "telogen
 19 hairs."   That's basically adult hairs or fully grown
 20 hairs.
 21           "If the questioned sample is thought to
 22 contain anagen hairs -- " which are pre-adult hairs, if
 23 you will --  "then so must the known sample, and these
 24 must be plucked.   It is advantageous to have both
 25 plucked and combed hairs in the known sample in any
 26 case, and they should be packaged and labeled
 27 separately."
 28           And then I have another quote from the F.B.I.,
 01 from a symposium held on "proceedings of the
 02 international symposium on forensic hair comparisons,"
 03 and again I have copies for anyone who wishes to read
 04 them.
 05      THE COURT:  Is this the one you furnished copies of
 06 to everyone?
 07      THE WITNESS:  Yes, that's the correct one.
 09      Q    May I refer you to -- Ms. Kestler, may I refer
 10 you to page 11 of that document that has been furnished
 11 to court and counsel which you furnished to me this
 12 morning.   Page 11.
 13      A    Right.   That's correct.
 14      Q    The second paragraph.
 15      A    "It is recommended that a known head hair
 16 sample consist of at least 20 hairs from each of 5
 17 different areas of the scalp," and then refers to,
 18 "center, front, back and both sides."   "And that these
 19 hairs be obtained by both pulling and combing."
 20           And then it goes on to talk about a little bit
 21 of procedure in doing that collection.   And then it
 22 goes on to talking about how we select that or what the
 23 routine procedure for selecting a random sample of those
 24 hundred hairs is.
 25           And that's where we have come up, over the
 26 years, from different sources, for wanting between 30 to
 27 100 head hairs for microscopic comparison for the
 28 exemplar.
 01      Q    Now, this article that you're quoting from,
 02 that you've just quoted from, was put out by the Federal
 03 Bureau of Investigation?
 04      A    That's correct.
 05      Q    It's dated 1985?
 06      A    That's correct.
 07      Q    To the best of your knowledge, has the
 08 practice changed any among criminalists concerning the
 09 size of sample required for effective microscopic
 10 analysis of hairs?
 11      A    No, it has not.
 12      Q    And the book you quoted from, coauthored by
 13 Henry C. Lee, the portion that you have just read to us
 14 would seem to indicate also  --
 15      MR. SHAPIRO:  Your Honor, the form of the question
 16 is improper.
 17      THE COURT:  I haven't heard the end of the question
 18 yet, so I can't quite rule.
 20      Q    Reading the article that you've read to us,
 21 the portion of the article you've read to us from the
 22 book coauthored by Henry Lee, what do you deduce
 23 concerning his practice or advised practice in terms of
 24 the size of sample required to do an effective
 25 microscopic analysis of hairs?
 26      A    Well, it appears to purport that the authors
 27 of this book indicate that a minimum of 30 to 40 hairs
 28 is necessary before you can do a -- before you have an
 01 adequate sample.
 02      MS. CLARK:  Your Honor, I'm going to ask that the
 03 pages that have been xeroxed by the witness be copied
 04 for both counsel and one for the court, and I'd like to
 05 mark it -- or also admit this for the Court's
 06 consideration in addition to the article that I've
 07 furnished the court with this morning.
 08      THE COURT:  All right.   Did you want to then Mark
 09 those as actual exhibits with regard to the motion?
 10      MS. CLARK:  Yes, Your Honor.
 11      THE COURT:  And so we'll denote "proceedings of the
 12 international symposium on forensic hair comparisons"
 13 article is people's exhibit number 1 for purposes of
 14 this motion only.
 15      MS. CLARK:  Thank you, Your Honor.
 16      THE COURT:  And would you describe the title of the
 17 other document, please.
 18      MS. CLARK:  Yes, Your Honor.   It's entitled
 19 "forensic science, an introduction to criminalistics,"
 20 authored by Peter de forest, R.E. Gaensslen,
 21 g-a-e-n-s-s-l-e-n, and Henry C. Lee.
 22      THE COURT:  And you want to denote that as
 23 People's 2 for this motion?
 24      MS. CLARK:  Yes, Your Honor, thank you.
 25      THE COURT:  All right.
 26           Do you have additional questions of the
 27 witness at this time?
 28      MS. CLARK:  Just a couple of more, Your Honor,
 01 thank you.
 02      THE COURT:  All right.
 04      Q    With respect to the information that you've
 05 given us concerning D.N.A. analysis and the quantities
 06 of evidence required to perform those tests, where did
 07 you get that information?
 08      A    The analysis -- the amount of sample needed
 09 for D.N.A. analysis has been given to us over the years
 10 by different entities and experts in the field,
 11 including the F.B.I., Cellmark private laboratory,
 12 Cellmark diagnostics.
 13           Obviously, before we send something to them,
 14 we needed to know that they purported to be the minimum
 15 sample that was required.   It began when we first
 16 started the quarter size sample of blood that was
 17 necessary to do R.F.L.P. analysis and they've progressed
 18 to what they refer to as a nickel size, which equates to
 19 one of our one centimeter square swatches soaked heavily
 20 with blood.
 21      Q    So do you undertake to conduct that evaluation
 22 with respect to blood evidence on a routine basis, and
 23 that evaluation being whether or not an evidence sample
 24 of blood is sufficient in quantity or quality for D.N.A.
 25 testing?
 26      A    Yes.   We do -- we have sent out over 100
 27 cases for R.F.L.P., all of which have been evaluated in
 28 the same manner that we discussed here today, and those
 01 contained in excess of 400 items, which we've evaluated
 02 for R.F.L.P. or P.C.R. or other types of analysis.   And
 03 it's basically done on the basis that we discussed here
 04 today.
 05      Q    And when you say, "R.F.L.P." and "P.C.R.,"
 06 you're referring to tests for D.N.A.?
 07      A    Yes, two different types of testing for
 08 D.N.A., that's correct.
 09      Q    So the evaluation process to determine how
 10 much -- whether you have a sufficient sample for further
 11 testing is something that is done by you on a routine
 12 basis?
 13      A    Yes.
 14      Q    And have you previously been consulted before
 15 as to whether there is sufficient evidence blood to
 16 allow for a split?
 17      A    In other cases, yes.
 18      Q    And is that also done by you on a routine
 19 basis?
 20      A    Yes.   In the last couple of recent years,
 21 I've turned that over to other people, but in the
 22 beginning when we first began sending out D.N.A., I
 23 strictly did the evaluation myself.
 24      MS. CLARK:  I have nothing further.
 25      THE COURT:  Mr. Shapiro.
 26      MR. SHAPIRO:  Yes.
 27      THE COURT:  Just a few questions.
 28      MR. SHAPIRO:  Yes.
 01           Your Honor, may I direct the court and
 02 counsel's attention to our discovery motion, item 29-C,
 03 which we had filed last week regarding expert witnesses.
 04           "Any and all writings or publications used in
 05 any way by the experts in forming opinions or obtaining
 06 a basis for forming opinion, including teaching manuals,
 07 journals, treatise, text books, bulletins and other
 08 records of classes in the expert's field of expertise or
 09 otherwise."
 10           Again, we've been repeatedly assured every
 11 time an issue comes up that all items of discovery will
 12 be complied with.   Clearly this has not been complied
 13 with.
 14      MS. CLARK:  Your Honor, it has.   I have turned
 15 over everything as soon as I've received it.   This
 16 morning I received the item number marked as People's 1,
 17 and as counsel was able to see, the witness brought
 18 People's number 2 with her.   And I didn't have any
 19 knowledge of it until the witness brought it in.
 20           If counsel would like to question the witness
 21 as to how she came about obtaining People's 2 and
 22 whether I've ever seen it before she brought it out on
 23 the witness stand today, I'd welcome him to do so.
 24      THE COURT:  Mr. shapiro, it strikes me that this
 25 motion with regard to the hairs was one that sort of
 26 came up rather suddenly based on your filing an order
 27 for my signature yesterday, I believe, limiting the hair
 28 sample to one hair.   And that's how we got on this
 01 whole issue.
 02           And if you feel that you haven't had
 03 sufficient time to read these manuals then, you know,
 04 I'm willing to give you some additional time to deal
 05 with that.
 06           But I don't see that there's been any bad
 07 faith exercise on the part of the people at this point
 08 in time in light of the short notice that we're dealing
 09 with here in this instance.
 10      MR. SHAPIRO:  Thank you, Your Honor.   We're
 11 prepared to proceed.
 12      THE COURT:  Thank you.
 13      MR. SHAPIRO:  You're welcome.
 15                   RECROSS-EXAMINATION
 18      Q    With regard to the book you relied on, have
 19 you read that book in its entirety?
 20      A    No, I have not.
 21      Q    What portions of the book have you read?
 22      A    Over the years I've read different portions.
 23 It's basically a reference book.   I sort of collect
 24 books on forensic evidence, and especially by people I
 25 know, and I know all the authors of this book
 26 personally.
 27           So I have, you know, read different parts here
 28 and there.   I haven't read the whole thing.   It's
 01 repetitive of many things.
 02           There's only small sections on hair and
 03 blood.   There's other sections on, you know -- this is
 04 entirely forensic science.   It's an introduction to
 05 criminalistics.
 06      Q    Regarding the section on hair that you have
 07 relied on in forming your opinion, did the authors of
 08 that book say how many hairs should be plucked for
 09 comparison for D.N.A. analysis?
 10      A    I don't recall, because this was written
 11 in 1983, and so for D.N.A. -- again, D.N.A., it takes a
 12 minimum -- first of all, we're not going to do D.N.A. on
 13 any of the hair we're asking for.   We're only asking
 14 for the hair for microscopic comparison purposes.
 15      Q    So you don't need any roots?
 16      A    Yes.   We need roots for microscopic
 17 comparison purposes.   It's not a valid sample to be
 18 only looking at the shaft and not the entire hair.
 19      Q    My question now is, in reading the book that
 20 you've relied on in making your opinion, does it say how
 21 many hair samples of roots should be obtained?
 22      A    Well, yes, I believe it did.
 23      MS. CLARK:  Objection; vague.   For what purpose;
 24 microscopic analysis?    What is counsel referring to?
 25      THE WITNESS:  I believe  --
 26      THE COURT:  Mr. shapiro, are you referring now to
 27 microscopic analysis?
 28      MR. SHAPIRO:  Yes, Your Honor.
 01      THE COURT:  Thank you.
 02      THE WITNESS:  On page 211 -- I believe I've
 03 referred to it before -- it says, "ordinarily the hairs
 04 should not be cut," which indicates plucking right
 05 off.   They suggest plucking -- they suggest plucking
 06 them all.   That's the inference I read here.
 08      Q    Is that what it says?    Would you read that?
 09      A    It says, "known samples -- "  these are the
 10 known samples "-- should be given careful
 11 consideration.   If questioned hairs are to be
 12 submitted -- "  and that's our evidence hairs  " -- then
 13 the known sample -- "  that's what we're asking for
 14 " -- should contain representative samples from
 15 different parts of the scalp.   Ordinarily the hairs
 16 should not be cut.   Vigorous combing or massaging of
 17 the scalp will usually yield 30 to 40 telogen hairs," or
 18 essentially adult hairs or viable hairs.   "If the
 19 questioned sample is thought to contain anagen
 20 hairs -- "  which is undeveloped hairs  " -- then so
 21 must the known sample, and these must be plucked."   You
 22 cannot shake those out.
 23      Q    Does it say how many should be plucked?
 24      A    It says, "ordinarily all the -- "  it says,
 25 "ordinarily the hairs should not be cut."   That's
 26 all 30 or 40 of them.
 27           And it says here that if you vigorously comb
 28 or massage the head, that you should be able to yield 30
 01 or 40 hairs with roots.   It's what they're inferring.
 02      Q    So what you're relying upon, then, is that a
 03 vigorous massaging of Mr. Simpson's head, along with
 04 combing, should give you sufficient sample.
 05      A    That's what that one reference refers to.
 06           The reference of preference -- I brought that
 07 specifically because of your reference to Dr. Lee this
 08 morning.
 09           And that's an older reference than the F.B.I.
 10 symposium reference, which indicates on page 11, "that
 11 these hairs be obtained by both pulling and combing,"
 12 and they don't give a number.   And no, we don't need a
 13 lot of roots.
 14      Q    Thank you.
 15      MR. SHAPIRO:  Nothing further.
 16      THE WITNESS:  But we need more than one.
 17      MR. SHAPIRO:  Thank you, nothing further.
 18      THE COURT:  Ms. Clark, do you have any further
 19 questions?
 20      MS. CLARK:  Nothing further.
 21      THE COURT:  I have just a couple of questions.
 22      THE WITNESS:  Sure, Your Honor.
 23      THE COURT:  Do you know approximately how many
 24 hairs, typical human head, male human head, contains?
 25      THE WITNESS:  No, I do not.
 26      THE COURT:  You have no idea at all?
 27      THE WITNESS:  It varies.   It varies.   I mean,
 28 just in looking around the room, it varies totally.
 01           I didn't mean that to be funny.   It varies
 02 greatly.
 03      THE COURT:  Is there like a minimum typical number
 04 of human hairs?
 05      THE WITNESS:  No.
 06      THE COURT:  All right.   In the course of an
 07 average day, is there some number of hairs that one
 08 loses just through the normal course of the day, combing
 09 hair and  --
 10      THE WITNESS:  Again, there's a random average of
 11 what you shed on a daily basis, but you tend to shed
 12 dead hairs which don't necessarily contain roots.
 13      THE COURT:  So when we're talking about 100 hairs,
 14 which is the most that your periodical indicates, is
 15 that like a lot of hairs compared to the total number of
 16 hairs on a human head?
 17      THE WITNESS:  No, it is not.   Not on someone with
 18 full human hair.   I would say someone -- and I don't
 19 want to point anyone out in the room, but I would say if
 20 someone is balding to an excessive degree, I guess 100
 21 hairs would be a lot, and then you don't have all five
 22 areas to pluck from, so you're only going to pluck from
 23 areas available.
 24           So we're flexible here.   That's why we say 30
 25 to 100.   We don't say we have to have 100 hairs.
 26      THE COURT:  Are there any further questions based
 27 on the Court's questions?
 28      MR. SHAPIRO:  I don't have any, Your Honor, thank
 01 you.
 02      MS. CLARK:  Thank you, Your Honor, no.
 03      THE COURT:  Ms. Kestler, thank you very much.   You
 04 may step down.
 05      THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honor.
 06      THE COURT:  Ms. Clark, do you intend to present any
 07 other evidence with regard to this issue?
 08      MS. CLARK:  Not at this time, Your Honor.
 09      THE COURT:  Mr. Shapiro, do you intend to present
 10 any evidence on this issue at this time?
 11      MR. SHAPIRO:  No, Your Honor, thank you.
 12      THE COURT:  All right.
 13           Does either side wish to be heard?
 14      MR. SHAPIRO:  Yes, Your Honor.
 15           Regarding the issue of blood samples, I think
 16 clearly with the number of samples that have been taken
 17 and the tests that have been done, to allow the
 18 Los Angeles Police Department crime lab to consume all
 19 of the samples deprives Mr. Simpson of his right to an
 20 independent analysis of the samples, and therefore will
 21 prevent him from ever coming forward to show that errors
 22 have been made in the analysis.
 23      THE COURT:  Ms. Clark.
 24      MS. CLARK:  I think that we have repetitively
 25 covered that ground.   If what counsel is attempting to
 26 assure himself of is that there are no errors in the
 27 methods employed in the analysis, I have invited him and
 28 a team of experts to examine and observe every step of
 01 the procedure of testing as to every single item.   I
 02 repeat that invitation again.
 03           I can only reiterate, Your Honor, that the
 04 investigation has to be governed by the appropriate
 05 scientific procedures as determined by the experts, and
 06 that the prosecution must be permitted to investigate
 07 its own case.   To do otherwise would permit counsel to
 08 come forward, limit the number of tests that we conduct
 09 on a piece of evidence, and then argue to the court that
 10 the results of testing are unreliable because they were
 11 incomplete.
 12           Obviously, that's a catch-22 situation that
 13 the people should never be placed in.   We want to
 14 thoroughly investigate this case and obtain every result
 15 possible to gain maximum confidence in the results.
 16           Any exclusion that is obtained by the result
 17 of any test may very well indicate that the source of
 18 the item in question is not the source that was
 19 anticipated, either be it victim or witness or
 20 defendant.   Likewise, any inclusion would tend to
 21 corroborate the conclusions indicated by prior tests.
 22           So the complete testing of every item of
 23 evidence is clearly a very necessary and important
 24 thing.   Therefore, the people simply indicate that they
 25 are desirous of -- we are desirous of pursuing every
 26 test possible.
 27           And we invite counsel and all the team of
 28 experts he wants to have present to please come and
 01 observe every process, test every buffer and every
 02 solution to make sure that nothing is contaminated, and
 03 that we will preserve every right to which he's entitled
 04 to.
 05      THE COURT:  All right.   The court is prepared to
 06 make its ruling at this time.   And that is this:
 07           What Ms. Clark has characterized as an
 08 invitation to the defense to be present at these various
 09 testing of these various samples about which we've heard
 10 testimony today is going to be more than an
 11 invitation.
 12           It's going to be subject to a Court order that
 13 in fact the defense be present for the testing that's
 14 performed on any of these items, particularly in light
 15 of the fact that the only testimony that was presented
 16 today is that Ms. Kestler -- who is the expert in this
 17 area who testified -- does not know whether in fact any
 18 of the tests that are going to be performed will in fact
 19 consume the entire sample.
 20           In light of that fact, that we do not know
 21 whether there will be a sample remaining, in order to
 22 safeguard Mr. Simpson's rights in this matter, the Court
 23 does order that the defense be entitled to be present as
 24 indicated, and not just by mere invitation but as a
 25 requirement in this case.
 26           With regard to the hairs and the number of
 27 hairs, the court will order that the prosecution be
 28 entitled to obtain at least 40 but no more than 100
 01 hairs from the various areas, the five areas as denoted
 02 in the scalp of Mr. Simpson.
 03           That should accommodate a sufficient sample of
 04 hair to perform microscopic analysis or any other
 05 analysis that the people have indicated that they may
 06 do, and sufficient sample for the defense also to
 07 perform their tests after the prosecution has finished
 08 performing whatever tests they need as well.
 09           If at some point in time it's insufficient,
 10 then the matter can be revised at some future date, but
 11 I think that really should accommodate the needs of
 12 everyone, and hopefully we can put this issue to rest at
 13 this point.
 14      MS. CLARK:  Thank you, Your Honor.
 15      MR. SHAPIRO:  Thank you, Your Honor.
 16      THE COURT:  Now, with those matters taken care of,
 17 we can move to the substance of the hearing today, which
 18 is for the purpose of conducting a preliminary hearing
 19 in this case.
 20           And although we did have a brief conference in
 21 chambers with the reporter, I just want to reiterate on
 22 the record that both sides are ready to proceed to
 23 preliminary hearing.
 24           Is that right, Mr. Shapiro?
 25      MR. SHAPIRO:  Yes, it is, Your Honor.
 26      THE COURT:  Ms. Clark?
 27      MS. CLARK:  That is, Your Honor.
 28      THE COURT:  All right.
 01           The court is in receipt of a "notice of motion
 02 and motion to suppress and return evidence, to quash and
 03 traverse search warrant, and a memorandum of points and
 04 authorities and declaration of Gerald uelmen in
 05 support."   That motion was filed yesterday afternoon,
 06 almost 5:00 o'clock.
 07           Now, it would be the Court's proposal that at
 08 the time that we commence that motion, we are in fact
 09 commencing the preliminary hearing in this case, but
 10 that we handle the motion first before we get to any
 11 other kind of testimony or other issues with regard to
 12 the preliminary hearing.
 13           Is there any objection to handling the motion
 14 first?
 15      MS. CLARK:  Yes.   If I may be heard, your honor.
 16      THE COURT:  Yes.
 17      MS. CLARK:  Thank you.
 18           The people were served this motion at ten
 19 minutes to 5:00 last night.   We had no prior notice of
 20 any intention of the defense to file such a motion.
 21           In light of that fact, we were prepared to
 22 proceed with civilian witnesses in this preliminary
 23 hearing, as I informed defense counsel pursuant to his
 24 phone call to me last night.
 25           In view of the fact that those witnesses were
 26 already prepared and subpoenaed to be in court, we were
 27 unable to contact them and rescind their subpoena in
 28 time, and they will be substantially inconvenienced at
 01 this point if we are to proceed with the motion in lieu
 02 of their testimony.
 03           What I'm asking of the court, if it is
 04 acceptable, Your Honor, is to present the testimony of
 05 these civilian witnesses and proceed with the motion on
 06 Tuesday when the civilian witnesses will have been all
 07 contacted and told not to attend court so that we can
 08 handle the motion instead.
 09      THE COURT:  All right.   I personally have no
 10 problem with that.   I assume that the testimony of
 11 civilian witnesses is not going to specifically relate
 12 to the issues or the evidence that's involved in this
 13 motion to suppress.
 14           Is that correct?
 15      MS. CLARK:  That is correct.
 16      THE COURT:  All right.
 17           Mr. Uelmen.
 18      MR. UELMEN:  With respect to the filing of the
 19 motion, Your Honor, much of the factual basis of the
 20 motion was based on testimony that was presented in the
 21 grand jury that the defense first became aware of on
 22 Tuesday -- Monday or Tuesday of this week when we
 23 obtained the grand jury transcripts, and the motion was
 24 filed just as soon as it was completed.
 25           We have no objection to proceeding with
 26 witnesses who will not present any testimony affected by
 27 the motion to suppress, but before any testimony is
 28 presented related to evidence obtained at the premises
 01 of Mr. Simpson, we would like the motion to be heard.
 02      THE COURT:  All right.   I think that's an
 03 agreeable way to proceed in this case.
 04           So we will defer, then, any further evidence
 05 with regard to the motion until Tuesday?
 06      MS. CLARK:  Yes, Your Honor, thank you.
 07      THE COURT:  You have sufficient civilian witnesses
 08 you feel to fill the remainder of today and tomorrow as
 09 well?
 10      MS. CLARK:  I believe I do, Your Honor.   It's hard
 11 to predict the length of cross-examination, but I think
 12 that that will be the case.
 13      THE COURT:  All right.   Do you have a witness
 14 available at this time?
 15      MR. HODGMAN:  Your Honor, I will be presenting the
 16 first two civilian witnesses on behalf of the people.
 17 It is my understanding that those witnesses are
 18 sequestered, per the Court's suggestion --
 19      THE COURT:  Yes.
 20      MR. HODGMAN:  -- In an office upstairs.
 21           If I may be granted leave to contact someone
 22 upstairs and see if I can have at least the first of
 23 those witnesses brought to this court.
 24      THE COURT:  All right.   Let me just ask a
 25 question, and I know that we got off to a late start
 26 because of things that were out of the control of any of
 27 us.
 28           If we were to take a 15-minute recess -- it's
 01 a little bit earlier than I anticipated at this point --
 02 until 3:00 o'clock, which is actually a little more
 03 than 15 minutes, and then at 3:00 o'clock we began the
 04 testimony and went straight until 4:30, that would give
 05 you time to get your witness down here without any
 06 disruption at this point, because otherwise the witness
 07 is probably going to take, what, five minutes or so to
 08 come from the 18th floor to come down here.
 09      MR. HODGMAN:  That's what I would expect,
 10 Your Honor.
 11      THE COURT:  And then we would end up taking a break
 12 shortly after we began.
 13           So that's what we'll do.   We'll take the
 14 afternoon recess until 3:00 o'clock.
 15           Please have your witness here promptly at 3:00
 16 so we can begin promptly at that time.
 17      MR. HODGMAN:  Thank you, Your Honor.
 20            (A recess was taken at 2:45 p.m.)
 01         THE COURT:  All right.
 02              We are once again on the record, in the case
 03 of People versus simpson.  The defendant is present with
 04 counsel.  The people are represented.  this is the time and
 05 place for the preliminary hearing.
 06              Waive Reading of the Complaint at this time?
 07         MR. SHAPIRO:  So waived, your Honor.
 08         THE COURT:  Call your first witness.
 09         MR. HODGMAN:  Thank you very much, your Honor.  At
 10 this time the people call Mr. Allen WATTENBERG.
 11         THE COURT:  face the clerk, sir, and raise your
 12 right hand.
 13         THE COURT CLERK:  You do solemnly swear the
 14 testimony you are about to give in the cause now pending
 15 before this Court, shall be the truth, the whole truth, and
 16 nothing but the truth, so help you God.
 17         THE WITNESS:  Yes, I do.
 19                      allen wattenberg,
 22         THE COURT CLERK:  Please be seated.  Please state
 23 and spell your name for the record.
 24         THE WITNESS:  My name is Allen wattenberg.
 25 A-L-L-E-N, last name WATTENBERG, W-A-T-T-E-N-B-E-R-G.
 26         THE COURT:  You may inquire.
 27         MR. HODGMAN:  Thank you very much, your Honor.
 28 / / /
 01                     DIRECT EXAMINATION
 03         Q    Mr. wattenberg, you are the co-owner of a
 04 business located here in the City of Los Angeles, are you
 05 not?
 06         A    That's correct.
 07         Q    And what is the name of your business, sir?
 08         A    The name of our business is Ross cutlery.
 09         Q    What type of business is Ross cutlery?
 10         A    ross cutlery is a retail cutlery store, and
 11 sharpening service.
 12         Q    And, Mr. wattenberg, would you tell us where
 13 your business is located, please?
 14         A    Our business is located at third and Broadway,
 15 at 310 south Broadway, in the old bradbury building.
 16         Q    Sir, how long has your business been located
 17 in the old bradbury building?
 18         A    My brother and I have had the business since
 19 1965.  And prior to that, another gentleman owned the
 20 business for about 40 years.  His name was Mr. Ross.
 21         Q    And during that period of time, has Ross
 22 cutlery been located at one location or another, within the
 23 old bradbury building?
 24         A    it's been located in three different locations
 25 within the building.
 26         Q    Mr. wattenberg, you are co-owner of ross
 27 cutlery; is that correct?
 28         A    That is correct.
 01         Q    With whom do you co-own Ross cutlery?
 02         A    I co-own Ross cutlery with my brother, Richard
 03 wattenberg.
 04         Q    Sir, at this time, how many employees do you
 05 have?
 06         A    We have, counting my brother and myself,
 07 there's seven of us.
 08         Q    And, sir, as of this time, is one of the
 09 employees who works for you named Jose Camacho?
 10         A    Yes, there is.
 11         Q    About how long has Mr. Camacho worked for
 12 you, Mr. wattenberg?
 13         A    Mr. Camacho has worked for me approximately 20
 14 years.
 15         Q    And what is his job title?
 16         A    He's in sales.
 17         Q    Mr. wattenberg, I would like to direct your
 18 attention to the date of Tuesday, May the 3rd, 1994.
 19              Were you working at your business on that
 20 day?
 21         A    Yes, I was.
 22         Q    And was Mr. Camacho, the employee to whom you
 23 have just referred, was he working that day, as well?
 24         A    Yes, he was.
 25         Q    Mr. wattenberg, do you recall approximately
 26 what time you arrived at Ross cutlery that day?
 27         A    That day I more than likely came in somewhere
 28 between 7:00 and 7:30.
 01         Q    And, sir, are you the one who opens the
 02 business?
 03         A    Generally I am, yes.
 04         Q    And, Mr. wattenberg, on that date, of May 3,
 05 1994, were you working during the afternoon hours?
 06         A    Yes, I was.
 07         Q    And was Mr. Camacho working that afternoon, as
 08 well?
 09         A    Yes, sir, he was.
 10         Q    On that particular afternoon, Mr. wattenberg,
 11 did you observe any unusual activity occurring outside of
 12 your business that afternoon?
 13         A    Yes, sir, I did.
 14         Q    Would you please tell us what you observed.
 15         A    This particular day, there was a film company
 16 there, doing a pilot for a T.V. series, I believe.
 17         Q    And what types of things did you see that
 18 evidenced such filming, or such a project underway?
 19         A    There was a rather large film crew there, with
 20 cameras, lights, and all of the different items that go
 21 along with that.
 22         Q    Specifically in relation to your store front,
 23 where was this filming occurring?
 24         A    Directly in front of our store.
 25         Q    Did you, during the course of that afternoon,
 26 happen to observe some of the filming as it was occurring?
 27         A    Yes, I did.
 28         Q    During the course of your observations of that
 01 filming, did you recognize anyone on the set?
 02         A    Yes, sir, I did.
 03         Q    Who was that, that you observed, sir?
 04         A    Mr. O.J. simpson.
 05         Q    Do you see Mr. O.J. simpson present in court
 06 today?
 07         A    Yes, sir, I do.
 08         Q    Would you point him out for us, please?
 09         A    The gentleman over there, (POINTING).
 10         MR. SHAPIRO:  We'll stipulate he has identified
 11 Mr. simpson.
 12         THE COURT:  Thank you.
 13         MR. HODGMAN:  Thank you, Counsel.
 14         Q    Mr. wattenberg, during the course of that
 15 afternoon, did the defendant ever come into your store,
 16 Ross cutlery?
 17         A    Yes, he did.
 18         Q    And how many times do you recall him coming
 19 into your store that afternoon?
 20         A    I believe I saw him there once, possibly
 21 twice, myself.
 22         Q    Now, with regard to the first time, to your
 23 best recollection, did you pay close attention to the
 24 defendant as he came into the store?
 25         A    Not really.  We just let him browse around.
 26 We didn't bother him -- or I should say, I didn't bother
 27 him.
 28         Q    Was your attention drawn to other activities
 01 at the time?
 02         A    At the other time, I was busy doing several
 03 different things in the store that I normally do.
 04         Q    I see.  Now, were you present in the store
 05 that afternoon, when Mr. simpson, the defendant, came in a
 06 second time?
 07         A    Yes, I was.
 08         Q    And would you tell us what occurred when you
 09 observed the defendant come in the store the second time?
 10         A    I believe that he came in and -- looking into
 11 our store, from the outside, he was looking at items on the
 12 left-hand side of our store, which would be the north side
 13 of our store.
 14              And I think Mr. Jose Camacho showed him
 15 several different items that he had an interest in.  And he
 16 spent some time with him, talking with him and stuff.
 17         Q    Mr. wattenberg, where were you when you
 18 observed the defendant to come into the store The second
 19 time?
 20         A    To my best of knowledge, I was at the front
 21 portion of the store, on the other side.
 22         Q    Would this be on the south side of the
 23 building -- or your store, rather?
 24         A    On the south side of the building, yes, sir.
 25         Q    At any point in time, during the second time
 26 the defendant came into your store, did he ever come over
 27 to your location on the south side of the store?
 28         A    Yes, sir, he did.
 01         Q    And tell us what happened when the defendant
 02 came over, either to or near your position, sir?
 03         A    I believe, if memory serves me right, I spoke
 04 with him briefly.  And he pointed out a couple of items on
 05 the back shelf of the display where I was standing, and I
 06 showed him an item.
 07         Q    And, Mr. wattenberg, when you refer to
 08 "items," what do you mean, sir?
 09         A    He had an interest in some knives that we
 10 sell.
 11         Q    What type of knives did the defendant express
 12 an interest in?
 13         A    The item that I recall was a large lock blade
 14 knife.
 15         Q    And could you describe that particular type of
 16 knife a little further for us, sir?
 17         A    Sure.  This particular knife is about 15
 18 inches in length when it's opened.  It has a locking device
 19 on it, that holds the blade in a fixed position.  When you
 20 release the lock and fold the blade closed, I believe it's
 21 about -- maybe eight, eight and a half inches in length.
 22 It has a stag handle on it, with a shinny stainless steel
 23 blade.  The blade has some engraving on it, and basically,
 24 the ends of it is brass.  And there's a little guard toward
 25 the front portion of it, that's also brass.
 26         Q    Mr. wattenberg, when you refer to a "stag
 27 handle," would you explain what you mean, sir?
 28         A    A stag handle is the antlers off of a deer,
 01 and they utilize this quite a bit on some of the nicer,
 02 what they call collectable knives, because it makes an
 03 attractive handle.
 04         Q    At the time that the defendant was expressing
 05 interest in this particular knife, were you standing behind
 06 a counter of some sort?
 07         A    Yes, sir.  I was standing behind the display
 08 counter.
 09         Q    Is that a glass top display counter?
 10         A    Yes, it is.
 11         Q    Where was this particular knife in which the
 12 defendant had expressed interested?
 13         A    Directly behind me.
 14         Q    Was it on a wall?
 15         A    it's on a wall, yes, sir.
 16         Q    Did you remove that knife from the wall in
 17 order to show it to the defendant?
 18         A    Yes, I did.
 19         Q    Would you please describe what happened, sir?
 20         A    About the time when I took the knife off the
 21 wall to show it to the defendant, Mr. Camacho, which had
 22 been waiting on him previously, entered the picture.  And I
 23 had some things that I needed to do in the back, so
 24 Mr. Camacho continued the sale.
 25         Q    Now, with regard to the manner in which this
 26 particular knife was displayed, was it displayed with the
 27 blade open, or closed within the handle?
 28         A    To my best knowledge, it was open.
 01         Q    And when you displayed the knife that you took
 02 from the wall, and displayed it for the defendant, was the
 03 blade open or within the handle?
 04         A    As far as I can recall it was, yes, sir.
 05         Q    Now, Mr. wattenburg, at the time and afternoon
 06 of this particular date, did you have more than one size of
 07 this particular type of knife within your store?
 08         A    At the specific time, I think we had two
 09 knives similar to this, on display.  One short one and one
 10 long one.
 11         Q    How much shorter was the shorter one than the
 12 longer one you described?
 13         A    Possibly a couple of inches.  I don't know the
 14 exact dimension of it.
 15         Q    Was there a price difference between the two?
 16         A    There's a slight price difference, yes.
 17 Maybe 10 or $15 difference in the price.
 18         Q    Do you recall the price of the larger knife
 19 which you showed to the defendant?
 20         A    I believe the larger knife was $74.98.
 21         Q    Now, do you recall showing the smaller version
 22 of this larger knife to the defendant that afternoon?
 23         A    I really don't recall whether I did or not.
 24         Q    Is it possible that you did?
 25         A    It is possible that I did.  I was very busy
 26 that day, and might not remember it.
 27         Q    And you recall, sir, however, showing the
 28 larger knife to the defendant; is that correct?
 01         A    That is correct.
 02         Q    Are you certain of that?
 03         A    Yes, I am.
 04         Q    How certain are you of that?
 05         A    Very sure.
 06         Q    Now, did you continue to have a -- or did you
 07 have any sort of conversation with the defendant, as you
 08 were showing him this knife?
 09         A    I really can't recall whether I did or not.
 10         Q    Did the defendant express an interest in
 11 purchasing this particular knife?
 12         A    At the present time, when I was there, showing
 13 it to him, he just wanted to see the knife, which I, you
 14 know, took off the back display.  And I don't know if I
 15 handed it to him, or put it on the counter, but I did, you
 16 know, show it to him.
 17         Q    at some Point in time, Mr. wattenburg, did
 18 Mr. Camacho come over to assist you with the defendant?
 19         A    Yes, he did.
 20         Q    Tell us what happened then, sir?
 21         A    After that, I believe that I excused myself, I
 22 had some things that I needed to do in the back, some
 23 paperwork.   and I left, and returned to the back of the
 24 store, where we have like a little office area.
 25         Q    Shortly thereafter, did you see Mr. Camacho
 26 again?
 27         A    Yes.  A little bit after that, Mr. Camacho
 28 came to the back where I was, and he handed me the knife,
 01 and told me that the customer wished to have it sharpened.
 02              I took it in the back, where we do our
 03 sharpening, and I sharpened the knife.  And then I returned
 04 to the front with it, and I put it on the counter.
 05         Q    Sir, when you're referring to the customer,
 06 are you referring to the defendant?
 07         A    Yes, sir, I am.
 08         Q    And with regard to the knife that was brought
 09 back to you, was this the same knife that you had brought
 10 off the display, and presented to the defendant, or showed
 11 to the defendant?
 12         A    Yes, sir, it was.
 13         Q    This was the larger 15-inch overall
 14 dimensioned knife; is that correct?
 15         A    Yes, sir, that's correct.
 16         Q    Now, Mr. wattenberg, is there a difference
 17 between a single-edge knife and a double-edge knife?
 18         A    Yes, sir, there is.
 19         Q    Would you explain the difference for us,
 20 please?
 21         A    Sure.  A single-edge knife is sharpened on one
 22 side only, and a double-edge knife is sharpened on both
 23 sides.
 24         Q    And what type of knife was this knife that you
 25 sharpened for the defendant that afternoon?
 26         A    This knife was a single-edge knife, sharp on
 27 one side only.
 28         Q    With regard to the other side of a single-edge
 01 knife, is the edge as with regard to this particular knife,
 02 blunt, dull, sharpened?  How would you characterize it?
 03         A    On this particular knife, the reverse side is
 04 completely flat, or blunt.
 05         Q    Now, with regard to the knife that you
 06 sharpened for Mr. Camacho, you were certain that this was
 07 the larger of the stiletto type knives that you've
 08 described; is that correct?
 09         A    Yes, sir, that's correct.
 10         Q    Now, what did you do, Mr. wattenberg, after
 11 you sharpened the knife for Mr. Camacho?
 12         A    After I sharpened the knife for Mr. Camacho, I
 13 put it on the counter and continued, you know, doing what I
 14 was doing in the back.
 15              I believe I was doing some paperwork, or
 16 possibly doing some ordering.  I don't remember exactly,
 17 you know, it's a length of time ago.  I couldn't tell you
 18 exactly what I was doing, but some type of office work.
 19         Q    Did you ever see the defendant leave your
 20 store that afternoon?
 21         A    No, I don't believe that I did.  I was in the
 22 back working, and I don't believe that I saw him leave the
 23 store.
 24         Q    You had some awareness developed at some point
 25 that he had, in fact, left the store; is that --
 26         A    Yes, sir.
 27         Q    Mr. wattenberg, I would now like to direct
 28 your attention to Tuesday, June the 14th, 1994.  Were you
 01 working at Ross cutlery on that particular day?
 02         A    I believe that I was.  I'm not familiarized
 03 with that particular day.  It was on a Tuesday, You said?
 04         Q    That's correct.
 05         A    On a Tuesday, I definitely would have been
 06 there.
 07         Q    Do you recall a date when some detectives from
 08 the Los Angeles Police Department arrived at your store?
 09         A    Yes, sir, I do.
 10         Q    And you were present when they arrived?
 11         A    Yes, I was.
 12         Q    Were any other employees present besides
 13 yourself?
 14         A    There were several other employees there.
 15         Q    Amongst them were your brother, Richard?
 16         A    Yes, my brother, Richard, was there.
 17         Q    I suppose it would be unfair to characterize
 18 your brother, richard, as an employee.  He is, in fact, a
 19 co-owner; is that correct?
 20         A    Co-owner, correct.
 21         Q    Amongst the employees present, was Mr. Camacho
 22 there?
 23         A    Yes, sir, he was.
 24         Q    Did you speak with the detectives from the Los
 25 Angeles Police Department?
 26         A    Yes, sir, I did speak with them.
 27         Q    Did your brother, Richard, speak with the
 28 detectives?
 01         A    Yes, sir, he did.
 02         Q    Did Mr. Camacho speak with the detectives?
 03         A    Yes, sir.
 04         Q    During the course of your conversation with
 05 the detectives from the Los Angeles Police Department, did
 06 you show them the knife?
 07         A    Yes, sir, we did.
 08         Q    Were you asked by those detectives to show
 09 them a particular type of knife?
 10         A    Yes, sir, we were.
 11         Q    And tell us what you did, sir?
 12         A    I took them to the front area of my store,
 13 where these particular knives were sold, and proceeded to
 14 show them the knife.
 15         Q    By "the knife," what knife are you referring
 16 to, Mr. wattenberg?
 17         A    They had an interest in the knife that we had
 18 previously sold to Mr. O.J. simpson.
 19         Q    And did you show them an identical knife?
 20         A    Yes, sir, I did.
 21         Q    And was that knife identical, as far as you
 22 can determine, to the knife that was sold to the defendant?
 23         A    it was identical in size and type.  Some of
 24 these knives will vary a little bit, because the stag is a
 25 natural material.  So, it could be a little darker, a
 26 little lighter.  But the overall size and function of the
 27 knife is the same.
 28         Q    Was the knife that you showed to the Los
 01 Angeles Police Department detectives identical, in terms of
 02 price?
 03         A    Yes, sir, it was.
 04         Q    Was it also priced at 74.98?
 05         A    Yes, sir, that's correct.
 06         Q    Was that knife sold to the detectives from the
 07 Los Angeles Police Department?
 08         A    Yes, sir, it was.
 09         MR. HODGMAN:  Your Honor, at this time I would like
 10 to mark an exhibit for identification.  Would the court
 11 prefer I mark it next in order as 3, or may I mark it as
 12 People's 1, for purposes of the prelim, per se?
 13         THE COURT:  All right.
 14              We'll call it People's 1, for purposes of the
 15 preliminary hearing.
 16         MR. HODGMAN:  Thank you, your Honor.
 17              May I approach the witness?
 18         THE COURT:  Yes.
 19         MR. HODGMAN:  Your Honor, I have here a board upon
 20 which is contained four photographs, depicting various
 21 aspects of a knife, which I would characterize as being a
 22 knife as described by Mr. wattenberg in his testimony this
 23 afternoon.
 24              Each of the four photographs is designated by
 25 a letter A, B, C and D.
 26              May this exhibit be marked as People's 1 for
 27 identification?
 28         THE COURT:  Yes.
 01         MR. HODGMAN:  Thank you very much, your Honor.
 02         Q    Mr. wattenberg, I'm going to direct your
 03 attention to the exhibit which has now been marked as
 04 People's 1 for identification.  Do you see that exhibit,
 05 sir?
 06         A    Yes, sir, I do.
 07         Q    And specifically, do you see the photograph
 08 which has been designated as photograph A?
 09         A    Yes, sir.
 10         Q    And would you describe for us, sir, what is
 11 depicted in photograph A?
 12         A    In photograph A, there's a picture of the
 13 knife in its open position.  This is the knife that we
 14 currently sell in our store.
 15         Q    When you refer to "the knife," again, is
 16 this -- do these photos depict, in a true and accurate
 17 fashion, the knife that was sold by your store to the
 18 detectives from the Los Angeles Police Department, on or
 19 about June the -- excuse me -- yes, June 14th?
 20         A    Yes, sir.  This one appears to be an exact --
 21 the exact knife.
 22         Q    So, with regard to photograph A, sir, does
 23 that photograph depict some of the characteristics of the
 24 knife purchased by the defendant on May the 3rd, and that
 25 you have described in Your testimony?
 26         A    Yes, sir, that's correct.
 27         Q    Sir, I'd like to direct your attention to the
 28 photograph designated as photograph B.  Do you see that
 01 photograph, sir?
 02         A    Yes, sir.
 03         Q    With regard to that photograph, does that
 04 photograph depict the overall dimensions of the knife that
 05 was sold to the detectives from the Los Angeles Police
 06 Department, And which was identical to the one sold to the
 07 defendant?
 08         A    Would it be possible for me to take a closer
 09 look at it?
 10         MR. HODGMAN:  With the court's permission.
 11         THE COURT:  Of course.  You can step down and take
 12 a look.
 13         THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.  That appears to be the
 14 knife.  It's equal length to the one that Mr. simpson
 15 purchased, and also the detectives from the police
 16 department purchased.
 18         Q    And in terms of dimensions, Mr. wattenberg,
 19 what is the overall length on that knife?
 20         A    The overall length is approximately 15 inches.
 21         Q    Sir, when we refer to "overall knife," we're
 22 referring to the knife in A locked open position, are we
 23 not?
 24         A    Yes, that's correct.
 25         Q    Directing your attention, sir, to photograph
 26 C, the photograph designated with a C.  Do you see that,
 27 sir?
 28         A    Yes, sir, I do.
 01         Q    Mr. Wattenberg, what does that photograph
 02 depict?
 03         A    That photograph there is showing the length of
 04 the blade.
 05         Q    What is the length of the blade as depicted in
 06 that photograph?
 07         A    the length of the blade in the photo is
 08 approximately six inches.
 09         Q    Mr. wattenberg, earlier in your testimony this
 10 afternoon, you described some inscription on the blade that
 11 was sold to the defendant; is that correct?
 12         A    That is correct.
 13         Q    And do you see either similar or identical
 14 inscriptions upon the blade depicted in photograph C?
 15         A    The engraving on the blade is identical.
 16         Q    And what does the engraving -- what is
 17 engraved on that blade?
 18         A    On the blade it's engraved, "stiletto," and
 19 then it says, "Germany," underneath it.
 20         Q    Now, Mr. wattenberg, I'd like to direct your
 21 attention to the photograph designated with a d.  Do you
 22 see that, sir?
 23         A    yes, I do.
 24         Q    What does that photograph depict?
 25         A    That photograph shows the knife in a closed
 26 position.
 27         Q    And can you give us the approximate dimensions
 28 of the knife in a closed position?
 01         A    In a closed position, it's approximately, I
 02 believe, eight inches.
 03         Q    Now, Mr. wattenberg, in your testimony today
 04 you've described the knife that was sold to the defendant
 05 as a locking blade knife; is that correct?
 06         A    That is correct.
 07         Q    Would you tell us what that means, sir?
 08         A    Okay.  A locking blade knife is a knife that
 09 has a mechanism in it, that when the blade is swung to an
 10 open position, it locks it into that open position, so it
 11 won't easily close when it's being used.
 12         Q    And by what process, sir, does one close such
 13 a knife if one wanted to?
 14         A    This particular knife, there's a lever at the
 15 rear portion of the knife that you push down, and then fold
 16 the blade closed.
 17         Q    And except for depressing that lever, would
 18 the knife remain locked in an open blade position, if
 19 positioned that way?
 20         A    In most general use it would, yes, sir.
 21         Q    Now, Mr. wattenberg, you are aware, are you
 22 not, that your employee, Mr. Jose Camacho, testified before
 23 the Los Angeles County grand jury last week, are you not?
 24         A    Yes, sir, I am.
 25         Q    And after Mr. Camacho testified, did you
 26 become aware that he had been approached by various
 27 individuals from the media, who were trying to get
 28 Mr. Camacho to talk to the media?
 01         A    Okay.  Let me clarify this, because I was on a
 02 vacation, and I was gone the week that this all
 03 transpired.
 04              I learned of this after returning from
 05 vacation, so I have to testify in that regard, that I
 06 wasn't there when the news media deluged our store, but I
 07 learned of it afterward.
 08         Q    Is it your understanding, sir, that the news
 09 media deluged your store only after Mr. Camacho testified
 10 before the grand jury?
 11         A    To my knowledge, that is correct, yes.
 12         Q    Mr. wattenberg, after you returned from your
 13 trip, did you become aware that Mr. Camacho, as well as
 14 your brother, had signed some sort of agreement with
 15 someone?
 16         A    Yes, sir, I did.
 17         Q    And what was your awareness?
 18         A    They had signed an agreement with the Enquirer
 19 magazine, national Enquirer.
 20         Q    When was it that you became aware of this
 21 agreement?
 22         A    I was made aware of this when I returned on
 23 Saturday.  Let's see, I don't know the date on Saturday.
 24 It was last Saturday, approximately -- maybe 8:00 o'clock
 25 when I got home, I called my brother.  And my brother told
 26 me what had transpired during the week when I was gone.
 27         Q    Mr. wattenberg, did you sign an agreement with
 28 the national Enquirer?
 01         A    No, sir, I did not.
 02         Q    However, sir, do you expect to profit in some
 03 manner from your brother and your employee, Mr. Camacho,
 04 having signed such an agreement?
 05         A    Yes, I do.
 06         Q    Would you explain to us, please, how you
 07 expect to profit?
 08         A    My brother and I, being equal partners in the
 09 business, are going to divide this money up three ways.
 10 Mr. Camacho will receive one-third, my brother one-third,
 11 and myself one-third.
 12         Q    What sum of money are we talking about,
 13 Mr. wattenberg?
 14         A    The figure, I believe, is $12,500.
 15         Q    Have you been contacted personally by anyone
 16 from the national Enquirer?
 17         A    Yes, sir, I have.
 18         Q    Would you describe the circumstances of that,
 19 please?
 20         A    A gentleman named Mr. Allen Smith, which is
 21 the senior reporter for the west coast, called me, I
 22 believe, on Saturday.
 23              Can I clarify one thing?  Because I just
 24 realized that I made a mistake.
 25         Q    Be my guest, sir.
 26         A    I returned on Friday evening, not on Saturday,
 27 from my trip from Germany.
 28              On Saturday morning, I got a call from Mr.
 01 Allen Smith, that he wanted to purchase one of these
 02 knives, to send it into the Enquirer, so they could use it
 03 for photo purposes.
 04              And I don't remember the exact time Mr. Smith
 05 came in the store.  We talked briefly.  He purchased the
 06 knife.  I called federal express, I believe, and they sent
 07 a courier to pick up the knife about an hour later, which
 08 we had ready for them.
 09         Q    Now, Mr. wattenberg, to your knowledge, has
 10 your brother, or Mr. Camacho, received any money from the
 11 national Enquirer as of today's date?
 12         A    No, sir, we have not.
 13         Q    Do you have some expectation of when you might
 14 receive some money from the national Enquirer?
 15         A    My brother was instructed by the national
 16 Enquirer that after the story has run for a week, that we
 17 would be, you know, given the payment.
 18         Q    And, sir, when do you expect the story to run?
 19         A    The story is due to be released Monday.
 20         Q    Have you described the extent of your contact,
 21 your personal contact with the national Enquirer?
 22         A    Yes, sir, I have.
 23         Q    Sir, to date you have not received any money
 24 from the national Enquirer; is that correct?
 25         A    No, I have not, sir.
 26         Q    Mr. wattenberg, if I may, with regard to the
 27 figure of $12,500, that you've indicated in your testimony
 28 this afternoon, is that figure, or that sum, to be divided
 01 equally amongst the three of you?  That is yourself, your
 02 brother and Mr. Camacho?
 03         A    That is correct, sir.
 04         Q    And it is not the fact that you are to receive
 05 approximately 12,500, your brother receives 12,500 and Mr.
 06 Camacho receives 12,500?
 07         A    no, it's a total of 12,500, complete, all
 08 three of us together.
 09         MR. HODGMAN:  Thank you, Mr. WATTENBERG.
 10              No further questions.
 11         THE COURT:  Thank you.
 12              Mr. shapiro?
 13         MR. SHAPIRO:  Yes.  Thank you very much,
 14 your Honor.
 16                      CROSS-EXAMINATION
 18         Q    Good afternoon, Mr. wattenberg.
 19         A    good afternoon, sir.
 20         Q    You described this knife as a collectable?
 21         A    Yes, sir.
 22         Q    What is a collectable?
 23         A    A collectable is generally a finely crafted
 24 knife, that collectors would be interested in.
 25         Q    Are there different categories of knives that
 26 you carry in your store?
 27         A    yes, there are.
 28         Q    What are those categories?
 01         A    We carry cooks' knives, butcher knives,
 02 general purpose kitchen knives, pocket knives of every size
 03 and description that you could think of, hunting knives.
 04 You know, the list could go on and on.  There's many, many
 05 different categories of knives.
 06         Q    How would you differentiate a hunting knife
 07 from a collectable knife?
 08         A    A hunting knife could also be a collectable
 09 knife.  It would depend on who made it, and the quality
 10 involved.
 11         Q    What is the main purpose of a hunting knife?
 12         A    The main purpose of a hunting knife is fishing
 13 and hunting.
 14         Q    And to use for what purpose?
 15         A    Generally for a cutting tool.
 16         Q    Are those usually single edge or double edge?
 17         A    Most hunting knives are with a single edge.
 18         Q    Did Mr. simpson, at any time, ask to see a
 19 hunting knife?
 20         A    I believe that he did, yes, sir.
 21         Q    And you showed him numerous knives, did you
 22 not?
 23         A    Myself personally, I did not.
 24         Q    Mr. Camacho, to your knowledge, did?
 25         A    Yes, sir, he did.
 26         Q    Do you maintain books and records in the
 27 course of your business?
 28         A    yes, we do.
 01         Q    Do you maintain an inventory of your
 02 business?
 03         A    We carry, not a complete inventory.  We do an
 04 inventory like annually, you know, for the city
 05 requirement, or whatever.
 06         Q    Do you keep a record of sales, in the normal
 07 course of your business?
 08         A    We generally ring up items on a cash register.
 09 And at the end of the day, we take a total.  We keep a
 10 total of repairs, because repairs are nontaxable.  At the
 11 end of the day, we fill out a daily cash sheet, which
 12 indicates the total of sales and the total of repairs.
 13         Q    Does your receipt have the -- does your cash
 14 register record individual purchases for items that are
 15 sold in a given day?
 16         A    Generally not, sir.
 17         Q    Have you checked your receipts for this
 18 particular day?
 19         A    Yes, I have.
 20         Q    Did they keep a list of the individual
 21 purchases?
 22         A    No.  This sale was just a cash sale, which was
 23 rung up on the cash register.
 24         Q    When a sale is made in the normal course of
 25 your business, is a receipt given?
 26         A    There are times when a receipt is given, if a
 27 customer requires it, or if it's something that's being,
 28 like, mailed, that we need a record of, you know, for
 01 mailing purposes.  Or if an item is put on layaway, there
 02 are receipts made out.  But if a sale is made, just a cash
 03 sale, it is rung on the cash register.
 04         Q    Are duplicate receipts made?
 05         A    No, sir, they're not.
 06         Q    Just one copy of one receipt?
 07         A    Yes, sir.
 08         Q    That goes to the customer; is that correct?
 09         A    That's correct, sir.
 10         Q    what you are telling us, you have no record,
 11 whatsoever, to establish that this particular item for this
 12 particular price, was sold on this particular day?
 13         A    That would be correct, sir.
 14         Q    Regarding the exhibit that you've been shown,
 15 and that was purchased by the Los Angeles Police
 16 Department, about a week ago --
 17         A    Yes, sir.
 18         Q    -- Except for the handle, you would say the
 19 knife is the identical knife?
 20         A    Yes, sir, that's correct.
 21         Q    And the handle will vary in design and color?
 22         A    There could be slight difference in color and
 23 texture of the bone.
 24         MR. SHAPIRO:  Thank you.
 25              Nothing further.
 26         THE COURT:  Mr. hodgman, anything further?
 27         MR. HODGMAN:  Your Honor, I have no redirect.
 28         THE COURT:  Thank you, Mr. wattenberg.  you're
 01 officially excused from giving testimony.
 02              I order you, please, not to discuss your
 03 testimony with anyone.  Thank you.
 04         THE WITNESS:  Thank you.
 05         THE COURT:  Do you have another witness available
 06 at this time?
 07         MR. HODGMAN:  I do.  Mr. Jose Camacho.  Mr.
 08 Camacho, I understand, is sequestered in the hallway.  I
 09 guess that's not really a sequestration.
 10         THE COURT:  Face the clerk, raise your right hand,
 11 please, sir.
 12         THE COURT CLERK:  You do solemnly swear the
 13 testimony you are about to give in the cause now pending
 14 before this Court, shall be the truth, the whole truth, and
 15 nothing but the truth, so help you god.
 16         THE WITNESS:  Yes, ma'am.
 18                        jose camacho,
 21         THE COURT CLERK:  Please be seated.  State and
 22 spell your name for the record.
 23         THE WITNESS:  Jose Camacho.  It's J-O-S-E, Camacho,
 24 C-A-M-A-C-H-O, Camacho.
 25         THE COURT:  Thank you.
 26              You may inquire.
 27         MR. HODGMAN:  Thank you very much, your Honor.
 28 / / /
 01                     DIRECT EXAMINATION
 03         Q    Mr. Camacho, you work at the CUTLERY STORE
 04 known as Ross cutlery, located at 310 south Broadway, in
 05 the City of Los Angeles, do you not?
 06         A    Yes, sir.
 07         Q    And, sir, how long have you been working
 08 there?
 09         A    I've been there for 22 years.
 10         Q    And what is your job there, Mr. Camacho?
 11         A    I'm a salesman.
 12         Q    Mr. Camacho, I'd like to direct your attention
 13 to the individual I'm standing behind.  Do you recognize
 14 this man, sir?
 15         A    Yes, sir, I do.
 16         Q    And who is this man?
 17         A    That's Mr. O.J. simpson.
 18         MR. HODGMAN:  Indicating the defendant,
 19 your Honor.
 20         THE COURT:  Yes.
 22         Q    And, Mr. Camacho, have you ever seen the
 23 defendant in the CUTLERY STORE where you work?
 24         A    Yes, sir, I do -- I did.
 25         Q    And do you recall about when that was,
 26 Mr. Camacho?
 27         A    Oh, this is about nine or ten weeks ago,
 28 something like that.
 01         Q    Do you recall the exact date?
 02         A    Be like -- close to may -- on may -- I can't
 03 recall exactly the date.
 04         Q    Your best estimate is nine to ten weeks ago;
 05 is that correct?
 06         A    Yes, sir.
 07         Q    Now, Mr. Camacho, on the date that you saw the
 08 defendant in the store where you work, was there anything
 09 unusual or extraordinary going on outside the store?
 10         A    they were filming a movie there, at the front
 11 of the store.
 12         Q    At any point in time, during the course of
 13 that filming, did you go out and take a look, see what was
 14 going on?
 15         A    Yeah.  We got to the lobby, you know, we were
 16 watching all the actors there.
 17         Q    And at some point in time, during the
 18 afternoon hours of the date of this filming, did you see
 19 the defendant come into the CUTLERY STORE?
 20         A    Yes, he walked into the store.
 21         Q    And tell us what happened after the defendant
 22 entered the store.
 23         A    When I saw him walking into the store, I just,
 24 you know, I was looking at him.  And then I knew who -- who
 25 he was.  And then he asked to see some knives.  So I showed
 26 him where the knives were.
 27         Q    Now, sir, at the time the defendant asked you
 28 to see some knives, do you recall where you were within the
 01 store?   Meaning were you near the north display counter of
 02 the store, the south display counter of the store?
 03         A    Well, when he come -- when he walk into the
 04 store across the front, then I walked through the back of
 05 the store, where those knives were.  And he asked me some
 06 prices for the knives, so I just give him some prices.
 07         Q    Did you show him, the defendant -- excuse me.
 08 Withdraw that.
 09              Did the defendant express some interest in
 10 various knives?
 11         A    He liked one special knife, it's a small
 12 knife, it's made by case.  And I showed it to him.
 13         Q    tell us a little bit about the knife, the best
 14 you can recall.
 15         A    it's a collectable item.  It's a knife that
 16 isn't made anymore.  So, it's a nice looking knife.  And
 17 he, when I showed it to him, he say that he wanted to buy
 18 it, but at that time, he didn't have no money to purchase
 19 it.
 20              So, he told me that he was going to come back
 21 and buy it.  And then, at that time, he got called, you
 22 know, to go and film again.  So he left.
 23         Q    Mr. Camacho, sometime later that afternoon,
 24 did you see the defendant in the store again?
 25         A    Yes.  He came back about 45 minutes or an hour
 26 later.
 27         Q    What happened when the defendant came back
 28 later that afternoon?
 01         A    When I saw him walking in back to the store,
 02 so I knew who he wanted.  So I walked through the back of
 03 the store, tried to show him the knife again.  But then
 04 somehow he -- I guess he liked some other knife, at the
 05 entrance.
 06         Q    So what happened, Mr. Camacho?
 07         A    So, I follow him where he was going to the
 08 front of the store.  And then I showed him -- or I didn't
 09 show him, my boss was in front already.
 10         Q    By "your boss," to whom are you referring to,
 11 Mr. Camacho?
 12         A    Mr. Allen wattenberg.
 13         Q    The witness that just testified before you?
 14         A    Yes, sir.
 15         Q    And what happened there, at the front of the
 16 store, in the vicinity of Mr. WATTENBERG?
 17         A    When I got there, he was already showing a
 18 certain knife that he -- that he purchased.
 19         Q    What type of knife was Mr. wattenberg showing
 20 to the defendant?
 21         A    He showed him one of the -- it's a German made
 22 knife.  It's also a collectable.  It's made by a company
 23 called Chris and green.  It's a knife that is 15-inch of
 24 length.
 25         Q    Mr. Camacho, directing your attention to the
 26 left side of the witness stand, to four photographs that
 27 have been collectively marked as People's 1.
 28              Do you see that exhibit, sir?
 01         A    Yes, sir.
 02         Q    Do those appear to be photographs of the type
 03 of knife that, at one point that afternoon, was sold to the
 04 defendant?
 05         A    That's the -- that's the item I sold him.
 06         Q    Or more accurately, an item like the one you
 07 sold him; is that correct, to your knowledge?
 08         A    Yes, the first one is the item, or like the
 09 one I sold to him.
 10         Q    Did Mr. wattenberg continue to assist the
 11 defendant in the display of this particular knife, or did
 12 you have some role in the transaction?
 13         A    Well, when I got close to them, another
 14 customer was waiting for me.  So I went and wait on this
 15 other customer.
 16              When I finished waiting this other customer, I
 17 went back to Mr. O.J. simpson, to finish the sale that I
 18 was doing.
 19         Q    Did Mr. wattenberg remain --
 20         A    And then --
 21         Q    Pardon me.  Did Mr. wattenberg remain with you
 22 and the defendant while the sale was completed?
 23         A    Yeah, he -- Allen was with Mr. O.J. simpson.
 24 And then when he say that he wanted the knife, he required
 25 the knife sharpened.  So I give the knife to Allen, so he
 26 can sharpen it.
 27         Q    Mr. Camacho, I'd like to back up, in terms of
 28 time, just for a little bit here.
 01              When the defendant went over to the location
 02 where Mr. wattenberg was, did you see him gesture, or point
 03 to a particular type of knife?
 04         A    Yeah, he just -- I guess something attract him
 05 about the knife.  It's a nice looking knife.  And he
 06 just -- he liked it.
 07         Q    Well, at the time, sir, and --
 08         MR. HODGMAN:  Your Honor, I ask that that be
 09 stricken, because that really calls for a conclusion on the
 10 part of the witness.
 11         MR. SHAPIRO:  He asked the question, your Honor.
 12         THE COURT:  Can I have the answer read back, please.
 14         REPORTER)
 15         the court:  the objection is sustained, the answer
 16 is stricken.
 17         MR. HODGMAN:  Thank you.  After the "yes" portion,
 18 your Honor?
 19         THE COURT:  Yes.
 20         MR. HODGMAN:  Thank you very much, your Honor.
 21         Q    Now, Mr. Camacho, at the time that the
 22 defendant appeared in your store, were there different
 23 sizes of the same type of knife, as depicted in People's
 24 1?
 25         A    Yes, there are two different sizes.
 26         Q    And was the other size knife larger or smaller
 27 than the one that was sold to the defendant?
 28         A    it's a tiny bit smaller, probably an inch or
 01 two inches smaller from the large size.
 02         Q    Is the larger knife, at least at the time, was
 03 it priced differently than the larger knife?
 04         A    Yes, it is.
 05         Q    Do you recall the price of the larger knife?
 06 That is, the knife that was sold to the defendant that day
 07 of the filming?
 08         A    The price on that knife I sold was 74.98, plus
 09 tax.
 10         Q    And, Mr. Camacho, at this time, do you recall
 11 how the smaller knife was priced?
 12         A    I believe the smaller one is priced $59 or
 13 $64, something like that.
 14         Q    Now, during the course -- well, I'll withdraw
 15 that.
 16              After Mr. wattenberg went to the back area of
 17 the store, you assisted the defendant in the sale of this
 18 larger knife; is that correct?
 19         A    Yes.
 20         Q    Did the defendant pay for the knife?  or how
 21 did the defendant pay for the knife?
 22         A    He pay me with a hundred-dollar bill.
 23         Q    A cash transaction?
 24         A    In cash, yes.
 25         Q    And did you make change for the defendant?
 26         A    Yes, I gave him change.
 27         Q    As of today, do you have a general idea of the
 28 total cost of the knife?  That is price plus tax?
 01         A    The total price was $81.17.
 02         Q    Before you actually received the cash money
 03 from the defendant, did the defendant ask you to do
 04 anything with regard to the knife?
 05         A    He wanted it sharpened.
 06         Q    After the defendant asked you to have the
 07 knife sharpened, what did you do?
 08         A    So I give it to Allen.  So he went back to the
 09 shop, and he sharpened it.
 10         Q    What did you do after you took the knife to
 11 allen, for purposes of sharpening the knife?   Did you go
 12 back to the defendant?  Did you remain with Allen?  What
 13 did you do, sir?
 14         A    I finish, you know, ring up the sale.  I give
 15 the change to Mr. O.J., and then I went back to the shop,
 16 to get the knife, and give it back to him.
 17         Q    At the time you sold the knife to the
 18 defendant, did you give him a receipt, or a copy of the
 19 sales tape, or anything like that?
 20         A    Yeah, I give him the receipt.
 21         Q    Was there a receipt that was made from the
 22 store that you recall, or was it just a sales --
 23         A    Just regular register sales.
 24         Q    sir, it's your testimony, then, that after the
 25 hundred-dollar bill was presented by the defendant, after
 26 you made change, that you went back to where Mr. wattenberg
 27 was, and obtained the knife; is that correct?
 28         A    Yes, sir.
 01         Q    To your knowledge, had the knife been
 02 sharpened?
 03         A    It was sharpened.
 04         Q    What did you do then with the knife, after you
 05 retrieved it from the area where Mr. wattenberg was?
 06         A    I picked it up from the desk, and then I just
 07 put it in a plastic bag, and I handed it to Mr. O.J.
 08         Q    And after that, did the defendant leave the
 09 store?
 10         A    Yes, sir.  He got the knife, and he just start
 11 walking out.
 12         Q    Now, Mr. Camacho, about two weeks ago, were
 13 you interviewed by detectives from the Los Angeles Police
 14 Department?
 15         A    Yes, sir, I was.
 16         Q    And where were you when you were interviewed
 17 by those detectives?
 18         A    I was at the store.
 19         Q    At the time you were interviewed, was anyone
 20 else from the store interviewed by those same detectives?
 21         A    Yes.  Allen wattenberg was there, my boss.
 22         Q    What about the other co-owner, Richard
 23 wattenberg?  Was he there, to your recollection?
 24         A    Yeah, he was there, too.
 25         Q    And did the detectives ask you some questions
 26 during the course of this interview?
 27         A    Yes, they did.
 28         Q    And during the course of this interview, were
 01 you asked to show a particular type of knife to the
 02 detectives?
 03         A    Yes.  They asked me to show them a similar
 04 knife that I had sold to Mr. O.J. simpson.
 05         Q    Was that done?
 06         A    Yes, I did.  I showed them the same knife that
 07 I had sold.
 08         Q    And, sir, with regard to the type of knife,
 09 was this the larger or the smaller of the two knives?
 10         A    The larger size.
 11         Q    Was the knife that you showed to the
 12 detectives also priced at 74.98?
 13         A    Yes, sir, the same price.
 14         Q    Did the detectives purchase that knife?
 15         A    Yes, they did.
 16         Q    With regard to the purchase price of the knife
 17 that you sold to the detectives, are you certain that it
 18 was 74.98?
 19         A    I charged them the same price, because they're
 20 all marked the same.
 21         Q    Now, Mr. Camacho, on Tuesday of last week, did
 22 you testify before the Los Angeles grand jury?
 23         A    Yes, sir, I did.
 24         Q    And, Mr. Camacho, after you testified before
 25 the grand jury, what happened to you?
 26         A    As soon as I got to the store, I start getting
 27 a lot of different calls and, you know, the media went to
 28 the store, asking all kinds of different questions.
 01         Q    And this occurred after you testified before
 02 the grand jury; is that correct?
 03         A    Yes, sir.
 04         Q    When you say you started getting calls from
 05 the media, can you give us a little bit better idea what
 06 happened, sir?
 07         A    They start asking me if I was in court, you
 08 know, if I had testified.  But, you know, I denied it,
 09 because I was told to say so, it's not because I wanted to
 10 lie, I was told not to say nothing.
 11         Q    Do you recall what media sources tried to
 12 contact you, with regard to what you knew about this
 13 matter?
 14         A    Yeah, a lot of -- well, channel 5, channel 4,
 15 hard copy, and so many others.  You know, I'm kind of
 16 nervous, I cannot recall those right now.
 17         Q    Did people come to the store?
 18         A    Yes, they did.  A lot of media people came to
 19 the store.
 20         Q    Did any of the individuals from the media who
 21 came to the store, give you business cards?
 22         A    Yes.  Almost everyone, but I just throw them
 23 away.
 24         Q    Did you talk to any of these people from the
 25 media?
 26         A    Yes, I did.
 27         Q    And to whom did you speak?
 28         A    The names I cannot recall.  But I can tell you
 01 that I talked to the guy for channel 4.  There's another
 02 guy that came from New York, and I talked to the guys from
 03 hard copy.
 04         Q    Sir, when you say you talked to these people,
 05 were you responding to questions they were trying to ask
 06 you?
 07         A    Well, you know, they're -- they're tricky
 08 people, you know, they force you to talk, you know.  You
 09 don't want to talk, but they force you to.
 10         Q    Did you feel that you were under some
 11 pressure, Mr. Camacho?
 12         A    what did you say?
 13         Q    Did you feel that you were under some
 14 pressure?
 15         A    Yes, sir, I was in a lot of -- I still am,
 16 yes.
 17         Q    The one thing I want to clarify, Mr. Camacho,
 18 is that when you said you talked to these people, you were
 19 talking to them and telling them, "no, I don't want to talk
 20 to you"; is that correct?
 21         A    Yes, sir, I did that.
 22         Q    But at some point, Mr. Camacho, you did agree
 23 to talk with at least -- how shall I characterize this --
 24 with one individual who wanted you to speak about what you
 25 knew about the knife transaction; is that correct?
 26         A    Yes.
 27         Q    And from what entity or organization was that
 28 individual?
 01         A    Can I say that?  I don't know.
 02         Q    Yes, you may.
 03         A    Yes, I talked to the Enquirer people.
 04         Q    By "enquirer," are you referring to the
 05 national Enquirer?
 06         A    Or the national Enquirer, yes.
 07         Q    Do you recall the name of the person whom you
 08 talked to from the national Enquirer?
 09         A    Yes.  I talked to -- his name is Mr. Allen, I
 10 can't recall the last name.
 11         Q    Was this over the telephone, or did this
 12 Mr. Allen come to your store?
 13         A    First, he was so persistent, I didn't want to
 14 answer the phone.  But he was so persistent, so I talked to
 15 him.  Then he came to the store, and we talked there.
 16         Q    Did this fellow you've referred to as
 17 Mr. Allen, offer you money?
 18         A    Yes, he did.
 19         Q    Did he tell you anything else?
 20         A    Well, he offered me -- he offer $12,000 --
 21 500 -- 12,000 and $500, to tell him the -- what had
 22 happened, you know, in the store.
 23              So, I just -- I tell him the truth.  I told
 24 him -- because it was a lot of pressure to me, to be lying
 25 to a lot of other people, and that's not -- that's not me.
 26 I don't like to lie.
 27         Q    Sir, when you're saying you were lying to
 28 other people, you were lying to all these people who were
 01 trying to get you to talk about the sales transaction with
 02 the defendant; is that correct?
 03         A    Yes.
 04         Q    And finally, you succumbed to this pressure;
 05 is that correct?
 06         A    Yes.  I want to take that pressure off myself,
 07 you know, to tell the truth, you know, that I was lying,
 08 because I was was forced to lie.
 09              And I told them the truth, you know, what
 10 happened, that I have sold the knife to Mr. O.J. simpson.
 11         Q    Was Allen wattenberg at the store at the time
 12 this representative from the national Enquirer came?
 13         A    No, sir, he was not.  He was not in town, no.
 14         Q    He was not in town; is that correct?
 15         A    No.
 16         Q    Was allen's brother, Richard, working at the
 17 store on the day that the representative from the national
 18 Enquirer showed up?
 19         A    Yes, he was.
 20         Q    Did he speak with this fellow from the
 21 national Enquirer, as well?
 22         A    Yes, he did.
 23         Q    During the course of that conversation, were
 24 you told something about someone else having spoken to the
 25 national Enquirer?
 26         A    Yes.
 27         Q    What do you recall about that?
 28         A    Well, there were, I guess, actors, too, or
 01 actress, I don't know how you say that, it was -- it was
 02 another guy that had contact the Enquirer, telling them
 03 about the -- about Mr. O.J. simpson, that he had purchased
 04 the knife, because they saw him there.  And --
 05         Q    Was it after this representative from the
 06 national Enquirer told you that, that you decided --
 07         A    Yes.
 08         Q    -- You would talk to the Enquirer as well?
 09         A    Yes.
 10         Q    Would you tell us why, Mr. Camacho?
 11         A    Well, I would say this other guy was going to
 12 get, I guess, the money, with a lie.  Because he was lying,
 13 he never -- I mean, he saw that Mr. O.J. was there in the
 14 store, but he never exactly saw what he bought.  And that's
 15 when I decide to say -- if this guy's going to get some
 16 money, when he doesn't -- he's not sure what really
 17 happened, you know.
 18              So that's when I say, "well, I'm taking all
 19 this pressure, and for nothing.  So I'm going to get
 20 something out of it," you know.  It's not much, but I say
 21 something.
 22         Q    So, you wanted to get something for yourself;
 23 is that correct?
 24         A    Sure.
 25         Q    Now, did you sign a contract with the national
 26 Enquirer?
 27         A    Yes, I did.
 28         Q    Did Mr. Richard wattenberg, to your
 01 knowledge?
 02         A    Yes.
 03         Q    With regard to your contact with the national
 04 Enquirer, did anybody from the national Enquirer come to
 05 Ross cutlery and take some pictures there?
 06         A    Yes, sir, they did.
 07         Q    Tell us about that Mr. Camacho.
 08         A    Well, first I talked to Mr. Allen, and then I
 09 guess he contact the photographer, to come down to the
 10 store to start taking pictures.
 11         Q    Were pictures taken of you?
 12         A    Yes.
 13         Q    Were pictures taken of Mr. Richard
 14 wattenberg?
 15         A    Yes.
 16         Q    Were pictures taken of the store?
 17         A    Yes.
 18         Q    And were pictures taken of the knife, such as
 19 the one we have displayed here in People's 1?
 20         A    Yes, sir.
 21         Q    Have you been paid by the national Enquirer
 22 yet, Mr. Camacho?
 23         A    No, not yet.
 24         Q    Do you expect to be paid?
 25         A    They told me they would send a check this
 26 coming Monday, this coming Monday.
 27         Q    And what's supposed to happen this coming
 28 Monday, that would cause you to get a check?
 01         A    Can you repeat that again?
 02         Q    Sure.  Let me rephrase it a different way.
 03              Mr. Camacho, do you expect the next issue of
 04 the national enquirer to come out this coming Monday?
 05         A    Yes.
 06         Q    Is it after that that you expect to get paid?
 07         A    Yes, sir.
 08         Q    So, in a sense, Mr. Camacho, by virtue of your
 09 testimony today, we have scooped the national enquirer; is
 10 that correct?
 11              You don't need to answer that, Mr. Camacho.
 12         MR. HODGMAN:  I have no further questions for
 13 Mr. Camacho.
 14         THE COURT:  Thank you.
 15              Mr. SHAPIRO.
 16         MR. SHAPIRO:  Thank you very much, your Honor.
 18                      CROSS-EXAMINATION
 21         Q    Good afternoon, Mr. Camacho.
 22         A    Good afternoon, sir.
 23         Q    What attracted your attention to Mr. Simpson?
 24              Was there was some film crew right outside
 25 your store?
 26         A    Can you repeat that again?
 27         Q    you testified that there was some excitement
 28 going on, and that there was some movie, or some type of
 01 film being made?
 02         A    Yeah.
 03         Q    Was that an exciting event for you, and the
 04 people in the store?
 05         A    Not really.
 06         Q    Did you pay attention to that?
 07         A    No, sir.  Because there's a lot of -- they're
 08 always shooting there at the store.
 09         Q    They're always shooting at the store?
 10         A    Yes.  You know, they're filming.
 11         Q    So, there was nothing unusual about shooting
 12 movies there?
 13         A    No, sir.  Like I say, they always filming
 14 there.
 15         Q    And on this occasion, do you recall whether
 16 there were personnel that were in police uniforms, trying
 17 to keep people away from the film crew, and to keep the
 18 street closed at certain times?
 19         A    Not really.  Just the security guard, that was
 20 it.
 21         Q    There were security guards there?
 22         A    Yeah.
 23         Q    Do you know whether those security guards were
 24 Los Angeles Police Department personnel?
 25         A    Yeah.  They're usually retired officers, I
 26 would say.
 27         Q    And during the course of this day, a lot of
 28 people from this film came into the store?
 01         A    Yes, sir.
 02         Q    Lot of actors?
 03         A    Yes.
 04         Q    Maybe directors, some other people; is that
 05 correct?
 06         A    Yes, sir.
 07         Q    In fact, at the same time, there were some
 08 police people in uniforms in the store, were there not?
 09         A    That, I do not recall.
 10         Q    You don't recall?
 11         A    Not -- I mean the officers, just
 12 plainclothes?
 13         Q    No, in uniforms.  Policemen in uniforms, that
 14 were working on the set, that also came into the store.
 15         A    Oh, yeah, yeah.  That's -- yeah, that's true.
 16         Q    And at the time that Mr. Simpson came in, you
 17 told the police he was looking at various items, including
 18 watches and knives; is that correct?
 19         A    yeah.
 20         Q    Is that yes?
 21         A    Yes.  Because they're all together there.
 22         Q    And he looked at several different types of
 23 knives?
 24         A    I would say he only looked -- he asked for
 25 other prices, but I only showed him two knives.
 27         Q    Are you sure?
 28         A    Or say three knives.
 01         Q    Do you know whether it was two or three?
 02         A    Three.
 03         Q    The one he purchased, he said, "I like this
 04 one"?
 05         A    Yes.
 06         Q    Didn't say anything else?
 07         A    No, sir.
 08         Q    He didn't say why he wanted to buy a knife?
 09         A    No, sir, he did not say that.  I just sell it.
 10         Q    There's nothing unusual about somebody buying
 11 that type of knife, is there?
 12         A    No, sir, that's correct.  That's what we sell
 13 there.
 14         Q    That happens every day in your business, is
 15 that correct?
 16         A    Every day.
 17         Q    Now, you testified that the money you got for
 18 selling your story, was not a lot of money, but it was
 19 something.
 20         MR. HODGMAN:  Your Honor, I'll object.  That
 21 misstates the evidence.
 22         THE COURT:  Excuse me.  It is a question.  The
 23 objection is overruled.
 24              You can answer that, if you're able to.
 25         THE WITNESS:  Yeah, it's true.  It's not a lot of
 26 money.
 28         Q    And when channel 4 came to talk to you, did
 01 they offer you any money?
 02         A    No, sir.
 03         Q    What about channel 5?
 04         A    No, sir.
 05         Q    What about the other television stations?  Did
 06 they offer you any money?
 07         A    Except hard copy.
 08         Q    How much did they offer you?
 09         A    Some peanuts.
 10         Q    So, you really were like a businessman, and
 11 you wanted to sell your story to the highest bidder; right?
 12         A    Sure.
 13         Q    Now, you remember testifying before the grand
 14 jury just that day, don't you?
 15         A    Yes.
 16         Q    Right before you left the grand jury, did the
 17 person who is in charge of the grand jury, tell you the
 18 following:
 19                            "Mr. Camacho, you are
 20               admonished not to reveal to any other
 21               person, except as ordered by the court,
 22               what questions were asked of you and
 23               what responses were given.
 24                   In addition, you are not to reveal
 25               any other matters concerning the nature
 26               or subject of the investigation, which
 27               you learned during your appearance
 28               here.
 01                        And last, and until such time
 02               as a transcript of these proceedings is
 03               made public, I wish to advise you also,
 04               that a violation of this order can be
 05               the basis of a contempt charge against
 06               you."
 07              Were you read that, sir?
 08         A    Yes, he told us that also.  But he said that
 09 was -- that was up to us, if we wanted to talk, you know,
 10 we could, if we wanted to.
 11         Q    Who said that to you?  Did Mr. Conn or miss
 12 Clark say that to you?
 13         A    No.
 14         Q    Did one of the lawyers in this case say that
 15 to you?
 16         A    No, sir.
 17         Q    Did one of the police officers in this case
 18 say that to you?
 19         A    No.  I don't see anybody.
 20         Q    Do you recall whether it was a man or woman
 21 who said that to you?
 22         A    It was a lady.
 23         Q    What did she look like?
 24         A    You got me all confused.  Well, she's not
 25 here.
 26         Q    What did she look like?
 27         A    It's -- I don't want to put her in trouble.
 28 It's a Patty, I would say.  She told us that we could talk
 01 to the press, you know, if we wanted to.  That was it.
 02         Q    I'm sorry.  I did not understand your
 03 response.
 04         THE COURT:  Did you say Patty?
 05         THE WITNESS:  Yes.
 06         THE COURT:  And who do you mean by Patty?
 07         THE WITNESS:  That's the name.
 08         THE COURT:  Who does she work for, do you know?
 09         THE WITNESS:  She works here in the building.
 11         Q    Does she work for the District Attorney?
 12         A    Yes.
 13         Q    Yes?
 14         A    Yes, she does.
 15         Q    Thank you.
 16         MR. SHAPIRO:  Nothing further.
 17         THE COURT:  Mr. Hodgman.
 18         MR. HODGMAN:  Yes, your Honor.
 20                     REDIRECT EXAMINATION
 22         Q    Mr. Camacho, isn't it a fact, sir, that you
 23 were told by the District Attorney's Office representatives
 24 not to speak to the press?
 25         A    Oh, man.  Because what I understood, you know,
 26 that we could talk.  But if we wanted, you know, if you
 27 wanted to say something.
 28         Q    Are you a little uncertain about this,
 01 Mr. Camacho?
 02         A    Yes.  Well, that's what I was told.  What else
 03 can I say?
 04         THE COURT:  I'm sorry.  You have to speak up.
 05              What did you just say, sir?
 06         THE WITNESS:  I was just told like this, you know,
 07 if we wanted to talk, you know, we can talk to the press.
 08         THE COURT:  And you're referring now to what Patty
 09 told you?
 10         THE WITNESS:  Yes.
 11         MR. HODGMAN:  I have no further questions.
 12         THE COURT:  Mr. Shapiro, anything further?
 13         MR. SHAPIRO:  No, your Honor.
 14         THE COURT:  All right.
 15              Mr. Camacho, I'm telling you, and I want this
 16 to be very clear, that until such time as you have
 17 officially been excused from this proceeding, you are not
 18 to speak to anyone concerning your testimony, except with
 19 the lawyers in this case.
 20              Do you understand?
 21         THE WITNESS:  Yes, ma'am.
 22         THE COURT:  Thank you very much.  You may step
 23 down.
 24              Is there another witness available at this
 25 time?
 26         MR. CLARK:  Yes, your Honor.
 27              People call Mr. John de Bello.
 28         THE COURT:  Face the clerk, please, and raise your
 01 right hand.
 02         THE COURT CLERK:  You do solemnly swear the
 03 testimony you are about to give in the cause now pending
 04 before this Court, shall be the truth, the whole truth, and
 05 nothing but the truth, so help you God.
 06         THE WITNESS:  I do.
 08                        John de Bello,
 11         THE COURT CLERK:  Please be seated.  State and
 12 spell your name for the record.
 13         THE WITNESS:  My name is John De Bello, J-O-H-N,
 14 d-e B-e-l-l-o.
 15         THE COURT:  You may inquire.
 16         MS. CLARK:  Thank you, your Honor.
 17         THE COURT:  Miss Clark.
 18         MS. CLARK:  Thank you.
 20                     DIRECT EXAMINATION
 23         Q    Mr. de Bello, can you please tell us what you
 24 do for a living?
 25         A    I'm the restaurant manager of Mezzaluna
 26 restaurant, in Brentwood.
 27         Q    Where is it located?
 28         A    It's at 11750 San Vicente boulevard.
 01         Q    Can you tell us, sir, how close it is to the
 02 intersection is of San Vicente and Bundy?
 03         A    About a half mile.
 04         Q    Now, what exactly are your duties there?
 05         A    I'm a general manager of the restaurant.  I do
 06 all the hiring, firing, and make sure that the food comes
 07 out good, all the time, consistent.  And I'm there from
 08 morning to night, usually.  And I get a day off during the
 09 week.
 10         Q    Maybe?
 11         A    Maybe.
 12         Q    When you say "morning to night," sir, can you
 13 tell us, what do you mean?  Starting when, ending when?
 14         A    Usually get there at around 10:30 in the
 15 morning, and if I'm doing a long day, it's around until
 16 1:00 or 2:00 in the morning, the next day.
 17         Q    How long have you been working there in that
 18 capacity, sir?
 19         A    For the past year.
 20         Q    That would mean since June of '93?
 21         A    That's correct.
 22         Q    I'm going to show you a photograph that I'd
 23 like to mark.
 24         MS. CLARK:  I'll show it to counsel, first.
 25              People's 2, your Honor.
 26         THE COURT:  Yes.
 27         MS. CLARK:  and the second photograph, People's 3.
 28         THE COURT:  All right.
 02         Q    Sir, showing you the photograph that has been
 03 marked People's 2 for identification.
 04              Can I ask you if you recognize the person
 05 depicted in that photograph?
 06         A    It's Ronald Lyle Goldman.
 07         MS. CLARK:  For the record, this is a certified
 08 copy of the D.M.V. license of Ronald Goldman.
 09         Q    How do you know him, sir?
 10         A    I hired him approximately about four months
 11 ago, as a waiter.
 12         Q    And --
 13         A    Full time.
 14         Q    Full time?
 15         A    Yes.
 16         Q    He worked there for the past four months
 17 steadily?
 18         A    That's correct.
 19         Q    Showing you now People's 3 for identification,
 20 sir.
 21              Do you recognize the person depicted in that
 22 photograph?
 23         A    Yes, I do.  Nicole brown.
 24         MS. CLARK:  For the record, this is also a
 25 certified copy of D.M.V. for Nicole brown.
 26         Q    How did you know her?
 27         A    She was eating in my restaurant that night of
 28 the murders.
 01         Q    Had you seen her before that night, sir?
 02         A    Yes, I have, several times.
 03         Q    Would you call her a regular in that
 04 restaurant?
 05         A    She frequented the restaurant quite often.
 06         Q    Directing your attention, sir, to the night of
 07 June the 12th, 1994.  Did you work that night at the
 08 Mezzaluna restaurant?
 09         A    Yes, I did.
 10         Q    What time did you get to work?
 11         A    I got to work about 6:45 in the evening.
 12         Q    Did you see Ronald Goldman there when you
 13 arrived?
 14         A    Yes.  He was on duty that evening.
 15         Q    Now, do the waiters in your restaurant, sir,
 16 do they wear any kind of uniform?
 17         A    Yes, they do.
 18         Q    And can you describe it for us, please?
 19         A    The uniform for all my waiters is black pants,
 20 dress pants preferably, white shirt, a tie and a vest.  It
 21 can be a vest of their choice, as long that it's tasteful.
 22         Q    Did Mr. Goldman wear that uniform on the night
 23 of June 12th, 1994?
 24         A    Yes, he did.
 25         Q    If you know, sir, did he live anywhere near
 26 the restaurant?
 27         A    He lived a few blocks from the restaurant,
 28 yes, he did.
 01         Q    Now --
 02         A    Within walking distance, yes, he did.
 03         Q    I'm sorry?
 04         A    Within walking distance.
 05         Q    When you arrived at 6:45, did you happen to
 06 see Nicole brown there?
 07         A    Yes, I did.
 08         Q    Was she alone?
 09         A    No, she was not.
 10         Q    Who was she with?
 11         A    She was with a party of ten, and they made
 12 reservations that evening to dine.
 13         Q    And the party was already in progress dining
 14 then, at the time you arrived at 6:45?
 15         A    They were, yes.
 16         Q    Can I ask you, were there children in that
 17 party, sir?
 18         A    Yes, there were.
 19         Q    Now, regarding the layout of your restaurant,
 20 do the customers enter and exit through the front door?
 21         A    Most of the time they do, yes.
 22         Q    Is there another exit besides the front door?
 23         A    There is an exit that we use for our patio
 24 dining, and also handicap.
 25         Q    Where is that located?
 26         A    That is on the Gorham side of the restaurant,
 27 Gorham street side.
 28         Q    It's a side exit, sir?
 01         A    Yes.
 02         Q    Now, the waiters and the employees, do they
 03 enter and exit through the front entrance?
 04         A    Depends on which direction they're coming
 05 from.  Mostly the Gorham entrance and exit they come
 06 through.
 07         Q    Meaning the side entrance?
 08         A    Side entrance, yes.
 09         Q    Does your restaurant have a bar?
 10         A    Yes, it does.
 11         Q    And where is that bar located?
 12         A    It's on the west side of the restaurant, which
 13 would be the inside, the west side meaning -- the east side
 14 would be the side facing the street, and the west side
 15 would be the wall with the bar right there.
 16         Q    Where is that bar in relation, sir, to the
 17 side exit you've been referring to?
 18         A    It's about 20 feet from the exit.
 19         Q    If you were to leave through that side exit,
 20 would you necessarily then have to pass by the bar?
 21         A    All the time, yes.
 22         Q    Do you recall who was waiting on Nicole
 23 Brown's party that night, June 12th, 1994?
 24         A    One of our waitresses.
 25         Q    Were you present when Nicole and her party
 26 left?
 27         A    Yes, I was.
 28         Q    What time was that, approximately?
 01         A    I would say about 8:30, 8:45, within that time
 02 frame.
 03         Q    Now, do the employees in your restaurant punch
 04 in and out on a time clock?
 05         A    Every day.
 06         Q    And did Ronald Goldman punch out that night?
 07         A    Yes, he did.
 08         Q    What time?
 09         A    9:33, and I initialed his time card.
 10         Q    If you know, sir, did you observe that he left
 11 immediately after he clocked out?
 12         A    No, he did not.
 13         Q    What did he do, If you know?
 14         A    Well, he loosened his tie.  I think he took
 15 off his vest, and he had a drink.  I think it was
 16 Pellegrino, it's a mineral water.
 17         Q    Did you have a conversation with him?
 18         A    Yes, I did.
 19         Q    Did anyone else have a conversation with him
 20 after you?
 21         A    A couple of my waiters, bartender.
 22         Q    Who was the bartender that night?
 23         A    Karen Crawford.
 24         Q    Are you familiar with someone by the name of
 25 Stewart Tanner?
 26         A    Yes, I am.
 27         Q    Was he in the restaurant that night?
 28         A    No, he was not.
 01         Q    Who was in the restaurant that night?
 02         A    Well, there were three waiters, bus boys,
 03 myself -- oh, yeah, I'm sorry.  Stewart was tending bar
 04 that evening.
 05              I'm sorry, I got mixed up.  Excuse me.
 06         Q    That's fine, sir.
 07         A    All right.
 08         Q    Are you certain Stewart Tanner was tending bar
 09 that night?
 10         A    Right.  Karen is my assistant on Sunday
 11 evenings, that is why I get confused once in awhile.  So,
 12 she was doing the front door, and Stewart was tending bar.
 13         Q    Are Sunday nights something different than
 14 during the rest of the weekend?
 15         A    It's usually the night I get to rest a little
 16 bit.
 17         Q    Why is that?  Does Karen Crawford take over
 18 the managerial duties on Sunday night?
 19         A    Yeah.  She does all my book work, everything
 20 for me then.
 21         Q    Other than Sundays, does Karen Crawford tend
 22 bar then?
 23         A    Yes.
 24         Q    When she takes over the managerial duties on
 25 Sunday, does Stewart Tanner take over the bar?
 26         A    Yes, he does.
 27         Q    He was tending bar on June 12th, 1994?
 28         A    Yes, he was.
 01         Q    Where was it that you last saw Ronald Goldman,
 02 sir?
 03         A    I was speaking with him behind the bar that
 04 evening.  That is the last time I spoke to him.
 05         Q    After he spoke to you, did you observe him to
 06 speak with anyone else?
 07         A    No, I did not.
 08         Q    For approximately how long after he clocked
 09 out on the time clock, did he speak to you and other
 10 employees, or stay in the restaurant?
 11         A    I would say about 15 minutes.
 12         Q    So, by your estimate, sir, you would say he
 13 left around 9:45 to 9:50?
 14         A    That's correct.
 15         Q    When he left, was he still wearing his
 16 uniform?
 17         A    He did take his vest off, and his tie.
 18         Q    But other than that, the shirt and the pants
 19 of the uniform, he was still wearing when he left?
 20         A    Yes, he was.
 21         Q    Did you ever see him again after that night?
 22         A    No, I did not.
 23         MS. CLARK:  I have nothing further.
 24         THE COURT:  Mr. Shapiro.
 25         MR. SHAPIRO:  Yes.  Thank you very much, your
 26 Honor.
 27 / / /
 28 / / /
 01                      CROSS-EXAMINATION
 03         Q    Good afternoon, Mr. de Bello.
 04         A    Good afternoon.
 05         Q    When you testified before the grand jury, do
 06 you recall being asked about the time periods involved, as
 07 the prosecutor just asked you here today?
 08         A    Yes, I do.
 09         Q    Do you remember what answers you gave them?
 10         A    Similar answers that I did just a few minutes
 11 ago.
 12         Q    When you were asked approximately how long
 13 after Mr. Goldman clocked out did he remain, do you recall
 14 your answer was approximately 15 to 20 minutes?
 15         A    It could have been, sir.
 16         Q    May I show you your testimony?  Would that
 17 help refresh your memory?
 18         A    Yes.
 19         MR. SHAPIRO:  May I approach the witness, your
 20 Honor?
 21         THE COURT:  Yes.
 22         MR. SHAPIRO:  May I direct the court and prosecutor
 23 to page 188 of the grand jury testimony.
 24         THE COURT:  For the record, the court does not have
 25 that.
 26         MR. SHAPIRO:  Would you like to have that, your
 27 Honor?
 28         THE COURT:  It's not necessary.
 01         MR. SHAPIRO:  Thank you.
 02         Q    Just take some time to refresh your memory.
 03         A    Okay.
 04         Q    Have you had a chance to review your testimony
 05 before the grand jury?
 06         A    Yes.
 07         Q    Do you recall what your testimony was,
 08 regarding how long you stayed with Mr. Goldman after he had
 09 clocked out?
 10         A    We talked for a few minutes.
 11         Q    Did you testify before the grand jury that he
 12 remained approximately 15 to 20 minutes after he clocked
 13 out?
 14         A    Yes, I do.
 15         Q    What type of clock device do you have, to
 16 record the times that an employee clocks out?
 17         A    It's an electric clock that is normal in most
 18 factories or restaurants.  We just put the time card in,
 19 and it punches out the time.  That's it, it's very simple.
 20         Q    Do you know when the last time that time clock
 21 was checked for accuracy?
 22         A    Well, I changed it when the time -- when we
 23 changed the time, when it was daylight savings time.  So, I
 24 pretty much have the clock within a minute or two, I would
 25 say, of accurate time.
 26         Q    Do you adjust the clock yourself?
 27         A    I do, yes.
 28         Q    What do you use to set the clock with?
 01         A    There's a little lever that I press down.
 02         Q    What do you use to gauge what the time
 03 actually is?
 04         A    My watch.
 05         Q    Did you see a pair of glasses that evening?
 06         A    Yes, I did.
 07         Q    Where did you see them?
 08         A    I saw Karen Crawford pick them up on the
 09 sidewalk outside the restaurant.
 10         Q    About what time did she pick them up?
 11         A    I would say somewhere around 9:00, 9:15, in
 12 that time frame.
 13         Q    Were you with her when she picked them up?
 14         A    I was inside the restaurant.  I saw her pick
 15 them up outside the restaurant.
 16         Q    Is there any reason that you watched her do
 17 that?
 18         A    Well, I'm very observant in the restaurant.  I
 19 have to watch my employees.  I have to watch customers, to
 20 make sure that they're comfortable, and they don't need
 21 anything.
 22              So, when I see my employees go outside,
 23 automatically my eyes turn to her, and I was just wondering
 24 what she was doing outside.
 25         Q    Where did you see her pick the glasses up
 26 from?
 27         A    Right directly in front of the restaurant, by
 28 the valet stand.
 01         Q    On the sidewalk?
 02         A    Along the sidewalk, yeah.
 03         Q    could you tell what type of glasses they were?
 04         A    They were wire rim glasses, they looked like
 05 to me, from a distance.
 06         Q    Did they look to be clear glasses or
 07 sunglasses?
 08         A    Clear.
 09         Q    Did you see what she did with the glasses?
 10         A    She put them in an envelope.
 11         Q    Do you recall being asked those exact same
 12 questions before the grand jury last week?
 13         A    No, I don't.
 14         Q    Let me ask you if the following questions were
 15 given to you, on page 189 of the grand jury.
 16                   "did you happen to see a pair of glasses
 17 that evening that was discussed?
 18                   "A   Yes, I did.
 19                   "Q   And where did you see the glasses?
 20                   "A   I saw my manager, my bar manager
 21              picking them up off the sidewalk in front of
 22              the restaurant.
 23                   "Q   Who was the bar manager?
 24                   "A   Karen Crawford.
 25                   "Q   Did you see what she did with the
 26              glasses after she picked them up?
 27                   "A   No, I didn't."
 28              Do you recall giving that testimony?
 01         A    No, I don't.
 02         Q    Let me show it to you, please.
 03              I Ask you to take as much time as you need to
 04 refresh your memory, as to what you just testified to last
 05 week.
 06         A    Okay.
 07         Q    Was that your testimony, as I read it, sir,
 08 before the grand jury?
 09         A    Yes, it was.
 10         MR. SHAPIRO:  Thank you.
 11              Nothing further.
 12         THE COURT:  Miss Clark, do you have any any further
 13 questions?
 14         MS. CLARK:  Yes, your Honor.  Thank you.
 16                     REDIRECT EXAMINATION
 18         Q    Mr. de Bello, when you just told counsel just
 19 now that you -- I believe counsel asked you whether you
 20 knew what she did with the glasses?
 21         A    At that time, I didn't know.  It was told to
 22 me by Karen, that she did put them in an envelope.
 23         Q    And when you were just asked by counsel if you
 24 know what happened to the glasses, did you think he was
 25 talking about personally observing what happened to them,
 26 after Karen Crawford picked them up?
 27         MR. SHAPIRO:  I'm going to object.  Leading and
 28 suggestive.
 01         THE COURT:  Sustained.
 03         Q    Did you understand what counsel meant, when he
 04 said did you know what happened to the glasses?
 05         A    he was asking me basically what she did with
 06 them.
 07         Q    Did you think he was asking you whether you
 08 had actually personally seen what she had done with them?
 09         A    No, I didn't.
 10         Q    But when you were asked before the grand jury,
 11 you were specifically asked in following words, were you
 12 not, Sir, "did you see what she did with the glasses after
 13 she picked them up?"
 14              Do you recall that, as just shown to you by
 15 counsel?
 16         A    Right.  I recall that.
 17         Q    And in Response to that, you indicated?
 18         A    I didn't -- I didn't see what she did with
 19 them.
 20         Q    Did you mean to indicate today to counsel,
 21 that you did see what had happened?
 22         A    As she was picking up the glasses, she brought
 23 them back in the restaurant.  After that, I didn't see
 24 anything.
 25         Q    But what were you trying to indicate to
 26 counsel then, when he asked you if you knew what happened
 27 to the glasses?  Were you trying to indicate to him that
 28 you had seen what happened to the glasses?
 01         MR. SHAPIRO:  Objection, leading and suggestive.
 02 Motion to strike.
 03         THE COURT:  Overruled.
 04         THE WITNESS:  Yes, I was.
 06         Q    You were trying to tell him that you had seen
 07 what she did with the glasses after she found them?
 08         MR. SHAPIRO:  Your Honor, asked and answered.
 09         THE COURT:  Overruled.
 10         THE WITNESS:  Yes, I was.
 11              I was trying to tell him that I seen her pick
 12 the glasses up, and bring them back in the restaurant.
 14         Q    But were you also trying to tell him that you
 15 saw her put them in an envelope?
 16         A    No, I wasn't.
 17         Q    Only you were trying to indicate what you knew
 18 after the fact?
 19         A    That's correct, yes.
 20         MS. CLARK:  Thank you.
 21         THE COURT:  Mr. Shapiro, anything else?
 22         MR. SHAPIRO:  Yes, just briefly.
 24                     RECROSS EXAMINATION
 27         Q    Mr. de Bello, you didn't see Mr. Goldman leave
 28 the restaurant, did you?
 01         A    Not physically, no.
 02         MR. SHAPIRO:  Thank you.
 03              Nothing further.
 04         THE COURT:  Miss Clark, anything further?
 05         MS. CLARK:  I'm sorry, one more question.
 10         Q    Was it about 15 to 20 minutes after he clocked
 11 out that you last saw him?
 12         A    That's correct.
 13         MS. CLARK:  Thank you.
 14         THE COURT:  Do you have one more question,
 15 Mr. Shapiro?
 16         MR. SHAPIRO:  I do not, your Honor.  Thank you.
 17         THE COURT:  Sir, you may step down.
 18              And I just want to admonish you, that until
 19 you have been officially excused from giving any further
 20 testimony in this matter, you are not to discuss your
 21 testimony with anyone, except the lawyers in this case.
 22              Thank you very much.
 23         THE WITNESS:  Thank you.
 24         THE COURT:  All right.
 25              It is almost 4:30.  We're not going to call
 26 another witness at this particular point in time.
 27              We are going to adjourn the proceedings for
 28 today, until tomorrow morning at 9:00 o'clock.
 01              I would, however, like to see counsel in
 02 chambers, with regard to some matters that we discussed
 03 earlier today, for just a few moments, with the reporter.
 04              Thank you.  Good night.
 05         MR. SHAPIRO:  Thank you.
 07         CHAMBERS)
 08         THE COURT:  I just wanted to discuss a couple of
 09 things that we talked about earlier.
 10              One of those was AN additional table.  And I
 11 was told that it just wouldn't fit, in terms of the number
 12 of people.  And that the fire marshal, apparently, is
 13 already, I guess, not happy about how many people we have
 14 in the courtroom.  And therefore, I don't think that's
 15 going to be possible.
 16              With regard to the jury room, there is
 17 actually a JURY that's deliberating in that jury room that,
 18 we're making reference to, on another criminal case.  So,
 19 it's not available.
 20              Additionally, unlike many of the Municipal
 21 courtrooms that I'm used to, although my own courtroom I
 22 usually utilize, doesn't have a jury room at all, the jury
 23 room here is in the back hallway, and they have the
 24 security up here.  Everybody needs passes to go in and out,
 25 and it's just not feasible, in terms of security.
 26              And so reluctantly, I'm going to have to deny
 27 that request.  You're just going to have to do the best you
 28 can.  I'm sorry about that.
 01         MR. SHAPIRO:  Can we just store some water, maybe,
 02 in your chambers here?  Everybody could use it.  We'll give
 03 it to everybody.
 04         THE COURT:  What I'm going to try to do is get
 05 carafes of water for each counsel.
 06         MR. SHAPIRO:  There is a sign, "don't drink the
 07 water," on the water bucket.
 08         THE COURT:  No, on the drinking fountains, you
 09 don't want to drink that.
 10         MR. SHAPIRO:  We'll bring a couple of cases of
 11 Evian, leave it up here, so everybody has water.
 12         THE COURT:  That's fine.  I have no problem with
 13 that.
 14         MR. SHAPIRO:  We'll bring that up tomorrow.
 15         THE COURT:  With regard to subpoenaed records,
 16 there's been a number of different records coming in at
 17 various times, directed to the clerk's office.
 18              Additionally, there has been a lot of mail
 19 directed to me.
 20              You'll probably start getting mail now, Rose.
 21              And just for your own information, in terms of
 22 mail from the public addressed to me, I'm not reading it at
 23 all.  I'm saving it in a file, I'm just not going to look
 24 at it.  I'm not going to read it.  I don't know who's
 25 writing what, or what they have to say, but I just don't
 26 think that it's appropriate for me to consider what any
 27 particular member of the public has to say at this point.
 28 And so I just want you all to know that I'm just not
 01 reading it, but it is being maintained, should any question
 02 ever come up, at some point in time, about a communication
 03 from the public.
 04              The clerk wanted me to ask you to please
 05 emphasize to those persons to whom you are subpoenaing
 06 records from, to address those records to the clerk of the
 07 court, as opposed to any of the lawyers individually.
 08 Because with regard to the mail that's been addressed to
 09 any of you, they are just giving it to you.  And should
 10 there come any kind of question on the records, and they
 11 weren't maintained, or opened in the presence of the other
 12 party, it could affect the admissibility of those records.
 13              My clerk mentioned something, at least today,
 14 about some kind of federal express package coming, and
 15 being addressed to somebody, and I don't recall who it was.
 16 And she said, "what do I do?  What if they're records?"
 17              I said, "it's not up to you.  If its addressed
 18 to the lawyer, you're to give it to him.  Give it to him.
 19 And if it's a addressed to the clerk, handle it as you
 20 always would."
 21         MR. SHAPIRO:  We got that, your Honor, and it was a
 22 personal letter to Mr. Simpson.  But we'll not open any
 23 mail that comes in.  We'll turn it over to the court.
 24         THE COURT:  The things that are addressed to you,
 25 that's fine.
 26         MR. SHAPIRO:  We don't want it.  We get enough
 27 mail.  I can't walk into the office anymore, it looks like
 28 Christmas at the post office.
 01         THE COURT:  What you do with the mail is up to you.
 02 We're going to give it to you.  Whatever you do with it,
 03 it's up to you.  I just want to know if there's any problem
 04 with the records, you ought to make sure that that's
 05 handled, so it is addressed to the clerk of the court, as
 06 opposed to anybody, or any particular individual.
 07         MR. HODGMAN:  Understood, your Honor.
 08         THE COURT:  I'm trying to think.  I think I had
 09 something else I had to mention, but my mind is drawing a
 10 blank at this point in time.
 11              Oh, couple of things with regard to the motion
 12 on the hairs.  People's 1 and 2 were never moved into
 13 evidence, they were simply marked for identification.
 14              I don't know whether you want to move those
 15 into evidence, or just leave them marked for
 16 identification, or just -- it didn't happen.  They're now
 17 marked for identification.
 18         MS. CLARK:  I'd like to move them into evidence,
 19 for the purpose of that hearing, your Honor.  I neglected
 20 to do so, we were moving rather rapidly at the time.  I'm
 21 sorry.
 22         THE COURT:  I think we should probably do that, but
 23 on the record, in the presence of the defendant tomorrow.
 24              Oh, the other thing I wanted to say is with
 25 regard to witnesses, I'm telling each witness, as you CAN
 26 tell when they leave, that they're not to discuss their
 27 testimony until they've been officially excused from giving
 28 testimony.  So far, I have not excused any witness.
 01              I don't know whether you want the witnesses
 02 excused.  If you'd like them not to be excused at this
 03 point in time, so that they don't talk, and that the matter
 04 can just occur in the courtroom, without whatever might go
 05 on outside.
 06              And I mean, in the normal course of a regular
 07 preliminary hearing, I normally ask, at the conclusion of a
 08 witness's Testimony, "may this witness be excused?"
 09              I haven't done that, because we hadn't talked
 10 about it.  And I guess I'm looking for your input.
 11         MS. CLARK:  I would ask that you not excuse them,
 12 your Honor.  I want these witnesses not to talk to the
 13 press anymore.
 14              I don't know how much more plain we could ever
 15 make it to them.  But I really, anything that you can do to
 16 keep them quiet throughout these proceedings, and I don't
 17 think that the court would have jurisdiction to do that,
 18 unless we kept them on call.
 19              If we excuse them, I think it's all over.  I
 20 mean, Mr. Shapiro has a copy of the grand jury transcript.
 21 I even, in my opening statement, I said, "don't watch the
 22 news, don't get involved," and they did.
 23              And the witnesses, I spent the first ten
 24 minutes of every interview, "just don't talk to anybody."
 25 And it didn't matter.  It didn't matter.  I mean, you see
 26 what happens.
 27         THE COURT:  Is there any problem with that on the
 28 defense side?
 01         MR. SHAPIRO:  Excusing the witnesses?
 02         THE COURT:  Not excusing witnesses until the
 03 preliminary hearing is over.
 04         MR. SHAPIRO:  No.
 05         THE COURT:  I think it's a better course, in the
 06 sense, at this particular point in time, at least from my
 07 perspective, now the testimony and the evidence is coming
 08 out, it's in public, and it's there on the record.  Anybody
 09 that's interested can watch it.  And when it's all over,
 10 these people can talk to whoever they want to, obviously.
 11 But I would sort of like to confine it to what comes out on
 12 the record.
 13         MR. SHAPIRO:  I agree.
 14         THE COURT:  That is going to be the way we proceed
 15 with regard to the remaining witnesses.
 16         MS. CLARK:  Thank you.
 17         MR. SHAPIRO:  May I address something regarding the
 18 grand jury transcripts?
 19         THE COURT:  Yes.
 20         MR. SHAPIRO:  Our transcript starts on page 50, and
 21 it starts with the testimony of a witness who is now
 22 resumed.
 23         MS. CLARK:  What?
 24         MR. SHAPIRO:  Is resumed.
 25         MS. CLARK:  Oh.
 26         THE COURT:  So what you're saying is you're missing
 27 pages 1 through 49?
 28         MR. SHAPIRO:  Well, they were redacted by order of
 01 the Superior Court, I believe.  But there is a reference,
 02 my recollection -- I don't have the transcript in front of
 03 me -- It probably would be better off reading from it.
 04              Maybe if the people have it, they can go get
 05 it.  But my recollection is it starts out the first person
 06 is being recalled as a witness, and his testimony resumed,
 07 which seems to indicate that there was some previous
 08 testimony.  There may or may not have been.
 09         MS. CLARK:  There wasn't, I was there.  The witness
 10 they're referring to is Kato Kaelin, who, on the advice of
 11 this attorney, for reasons still unknown to me, exercised
 12 this fifth amendment right not to testify.
 13              And let me make it -- let me start from the
 14 beginning, so everybody is clear about this.  I will be
 15 going back, look at the transcript.  If I have the pages,
 16 you can have them.  I didn't know they were redacted.
 17 Nothing happened.
 18         MR. SHAPIRO:  That's fine.  If we can get the first
 19 50 pages, that would solve the problem.
 20         MS. CLARK:  Fine.  That will explain what happened.
 21         MR. UELMEN:  Was he granted immunity?
 22         MS. CLARK:  Not at all, not at all.  I'm still
 23 mistified what happened.  We had subpoenaed him as a
 24 witness before the grand jury.  I was getting ready to make
 25 my opening statement.  He came in with a lawyer, who said,
 26 "I need to talk to him, to make sure he is not going to
 27 subject himself to any possible prosecution."
 28              I said, "what?  Look at his witness statement.
 01 There is no possibility of witness prosecution here."
 02              I still don't know what he was thinking of.
 03 He demanded time to confer with his client, and I said -- I
 04 asked the court to give him half an hour in the office.  He
 05 refused that, and wanted to take three days.  That was
 06 basically the only argument we had.
 07              The court ordered the defense attorney -- the
 08 attorney to speak with the witness, and come back on
 09 Monday, to decide whether or not he would advise the
 10 witness to invoke.  He came back on Monday, and voluntarily
 11 testified.
 12              So, no testimony was taken on anything that
 13 transpired, and I still, still don't know why.
 14         MR. UELMEN:  And he was the first witness?
 15         MS. CLARK:  First witness, Brian Kaelin, Kato.  So,
 16 if I have those pages, you've got them.
 17         THE COURT:  You'll check on that, get them to them
 18 tomorrow?
 19         MS. CLARK:  Certainly.  I'll bring them with me
 20 tomorrow.  If I don't bring them with me, that means I
 21 don't have them.
 22         THE COURT:  All right.
 23              With reference to the opening of subpoenaed
 24 records, as much as possible, if that could be done off the
 25 record, unless there is some specific need for it to be
 26 done on the record.  And that both sides can examine those
 27 records while we're not, sort of everyone kind of waiting
 28 and looking at you.  It would be helpful.
 01              If there's some need to open them on the
 02 record, that's fine.  I don't have a problem with that.
 03         MS. CLARK:  Your Honor, in view of counsel's
 04 personal attacks in the courtroom, I really don't want to
 05 do anything off the record.  I really don't think it's
 06 advisable.
 07         THE COURT:  All right, that's fine.  Then no
 08 records will be opened off the record.  From this point,
 09 everything there will be done on the record.  That's fine.
 10         MS. CLARK:  Thank you.  I'll do it as quickly as I
 11 possibly can, but I really do want a record.
 12         MR. SHAPIRO:  can they be done at side bar?
 13         THE COURT:  Yes.  We can do them in chambers.
 14         MR. SHAPIRO:  That's fine.
 15         MS. CLARK:  That's fine.
 16         THE COURT:  The reason why we're having, by the
 17 way, these discussions here, is that there are the
 18 microphones all over.  Not all over, but in the courtroom,
 19 there really is not the typical side bar we have in other
 20 courtrooms.  I hope that is clear.
 21         MS. CLARK:  Certainly is, your Honor.
 22         MR. HODGMAN:  Certainly, your Honor.
 23         THE COURT:  are there any other points that
 24 somebody wants to bring up to me, something I should try to
 25 do something about?
 26         MR. UELMEN:  We were going to try to call Kato as a
 27 witness on the suppression motion.
 28              Do you have him subpoenaed for prelim
 01 testimony tomorrow?
 02         MS. CLARK:  I don't know if he's coming in.  Let me
 03 see.
 04              Yes, we'll get to him tomorrow afternoon.
 05         MR. UELMEN:  Want to do him all at once?
 06         MS. CLARK:  Why don't we do that.  Tell you what,
 07 you're going to want to take him on direct for that part.
 08 That would be great.
 09              I'll do my part of it, that I was going to do,
 10 and indicate that that's where my direct stops.  You can do
 11 cross.
 12         MR. UELMEN:  What I was going to suggest is that
 13 that be done Tuesday, when we're doing the motion.  Because
 14 we wouldn't be putting direct on until after you've put
 15 your case on.
 16         MS. CLARK:  That's right.  But we're going to be
 17 kind of interrupting the case anyway, to do the motion.
 18 Because we won't be done with the People's case on Tuesday.
 19         MR. UELMEN:  That's what I'm saying.  It may make
 20 sense to put him on after the motion.  Because part of what
 21 he's testifying to, took place at the house the morning
 22 of --
 23         MS. CLARK:  Right.  But what you want from him is
 24 actually after the testimony I'm going to elicit.  So, it
 25 would make sense.
 26              I'll go ahead and take him through all the
 27 testimony he's going to give, that I intended to elicit.
 28 Because I wasn't going to elicit certain questions from
 01 him.
 02              So, you can cross on that, and then take him
 03 on direct for -- because chronologically speaking, your
 04 search issues come up after I'm done with my direct.
 05         THE COURT:  You're indicating, if I am
 06 understanding correctly, that you have questions totally
 07 unrelated to the issues involved in the motion?
 08         MS. CLARK:  Right.
 09         THE COURT:  And that you want to call him, and
 10 handle that part of it, and then not get into any of the
 11 issues with regard to the motion, until such time as we get
 12 to the motion?
 13         MS. CLARK:  No.  Actually, what I was offering
 14 counsel, is that I would do his part of the testimony, that
 15 I intended to put in the preliminary hearing, and allow
 16 counsel to cross on that.
 17              And then in order to accommodate counsel,
 18 because he's already here, let them elicit -- let them take
 19 him as their witness, and elicit what they wanted to elicit
 20 from him, for the purpose of the motion, while he's here,
 21 so they don't have to get him in again.
 22         MR. UELMEN:  We can just keep him on call, if he
 23 could be instructed to return to testify on the motion.
 24         THE COURT:  I think that it will be clear, if that
 25 testimony is given.
 26         MR. SHAPIRO:  Your Honor, we would prefer that he
 27 testify first on the motion to suppress.  Or then if they
 28 want to do direct examination, we'll reserve
 01 cross-examination, and put him back on the motion to
 02 suppress, and then cross-examine him.
 03         THE COURT:  All right.
 04         MS. CLARK:  But that doesn't make sense, your
 05 Honor.  The cross is going -- let me explain.
 06              This witness has testimony to offer concerning
 07 the night of June 12th, 1994.  And the testimony I intended
 08 to elicit, would conclude by about 11:15 that night.
 09              The testimony concerning the motion to
 10 suppress picks up some five, six hours after that.
 11         THE COURT:  Well --
 12         MS. CLARK:  So, chronologically speaking, all I'm
 13 saying is that it makes the most sense, and it's easily
 14 divisible testimony.  It's very divisible testimony.  He is
 15 going to testify for the People's case concerning a set of
 16 events concerning June 12th.  Counsel wants him for the
 17 early morning hours of June 13th.
 18              But what I think is most clear and
 19 understandable, easiest to follow, is to let him testify to
 20 the events of the night of June 12th, be cross-examined on
 21 those events, because they do not pertain to the search
 22 issue at all, and then let counsel, if they wanted to take
 23 him on direct, on that same day.
 24              If they don't, if they would prefer to have
 25 him brought back for the motion, that's up to them.  But
 26 he's their witness on that motion.  I'm simply trying to
 27 accommodate.
 28              I Believe we agreed we would address the
 01 motion on Tuesday.  It's our burden as to the warrantless
 02 aspect of the search, and I intend to call witnesses.  But
 03 Kato was not one of them.  And if they want to call him,
 04 they can.
 05         THE COURT:  Mr. Shapiro, miss Clark can call the
 06 witness when she wants, with regard to those issues
 07 unrelated to the motion.
 08              If it is your desire at that point to reserve
 09 your cross-examination, and we'll put on the record that
 10 you, at the time of the motion, are then going to handle
 11 cross-examination with regard to the preliminary hearing,
 12 I'll allow you to do it.
 13              But I think it may be clearer, in terms of the
 14 chronology, to just cross-examine him on what part they
 15 present.  But I'm not telling you can't do it that way.
 16 You can decide.
 17         MR. SHAPIRO:  Your Honor, I'm not going to do that,
 18 tell you why.  I can't cross-examine partially, when
 19 credibility becomes an issue.  And in order to
 20 cross-examine effectively, I have to examine all aspects of
 21 his testimony and previous statements.
 22              To avoid confusion, I ask the court's
 23 permission to reserve cross-examination until after the
 24 motion to suppress is heard.
 25         THE COURT:  that's fine.
 26         MS. CLARK:  That's also inappropriate.  Because
 27 he's their witness on the motion.  They'd be examining him
 28 on direct, not on cross, as to the motion.
 01         THE COURT:  They can examine him on direct, and I
 02 assume, Mr. Uelmen, you're going to be handling that part
 03 of it?
 04         MR. UELMEN:  Yes.
 05         THE COURT:  Then they can cross-examine him with
 06 regard to the motion, and Mr. Shapiro will do that.
 07              And we'll just make it clear on the record, as
 08 to what function he's testifying as to.  And the different
 09 rules, of course, applying to cross-examination and direct
 10 examination, will stand as to those different parts of his
 11 testimony.
 12         MS. CLARK:  Perhaps the record should reflect my
 13 objection.  Because I think what Mr. SHAPIRO is proposing,
 14 makes very little sense.  Because the cross-examination
 15 with respect to the events of the night of June 12th, have
 16 no bearing on anything he is going to testify to with
 17 regard to the search and seizure issues at all.
 18         THE COURT:  All right.
 19              Your objection is noted for the record.
 20              Now, you filed a request, a copy of which was
 21 given to the D.A., according to the proof of service, to
 22 have a number of people be allowed, material witnesses, to
 23 visit Mr. Simpson in jail.
 24         MR. SHAPIRO:  If it was given to the D.A., it's a
 25 mistake.  It should be an ex parte motion.
 26         THE COURT:  It was described as ex parte, but there
 27 was proof of service indicating a copy had been given to
 28 them.
 01         MR. SHAPIRO:  That's incorrect.
 02         MS. CAPLAN:  the proof of service is incorrect.
 03         MR. SHAPIRO:  That's incorrect.
 04         MR. HODGMAN:  We would state, for the record, we
 05 have not received such a motion.
 06         THE COURT:  I'm not going to discuss it further at
 07 this point.  I relied upon the proof of service.
 08              Just a moment, please.
 09         MR. SHAPIRO:  Your Honor, I do apologize for that
 10 error.
 11         THE COURT:  Okay.  All I'm going to say at this
 12 point is that I'm not prepared to rule on that at this
 13 point, and I'll get back to you on that.
 14         MR. SHAPIRO:  Thank you.
 15         THE COURT:  With regard to these proceedings that
 16 we've had here in chambers, should that be transcribed, and
 17 be part of the public record?  Or shall we not transcribe
 18 it, and make it part of the public record at this point in
 19 time?
 20         MR. UELMEN:  I know the question came up in the
 21 context of the previous proceedings, and we indicated we
 22 would make the in-chambers proceedings available to the
 23 public.  And I think we have the request from one of the
 24 newspapers to produce the transcripts.
 25         THE COURT:  All right, that's fine.  We haven't
 26 discussed anything, except for my mention of that last
 27 motion, which I'm sorry about.  I relied on the proof of
 28 service.
 01         MR. SHAPIRO:  No.  That presents no problem,
 02 whatsoever.  It's really more a housekeeping matter, and
 03 something we have to discuss with the court regarding the
 04 Sheriff.
 05         THE COURT:  Anything else?
 06         MR. HODGMAN:  Your Honor, if I may, just one point
 07 that strikes me, in light of the court's ruling with regard
 08 to the testimony of Mr. Kaelin.
 09              Sequentially, and in terms of the way in which
 10 we have subpoenaed witnesses, I mean we're pretty much on
 11 schedule now.
 12         THE COURT:  Good.
 13         MR. HODGMAN:  We had anticipated, however,
 14 significant treatment of Mr. Kaelin in testimony, in terms
 15 of the direct and cross.
 16         THE COURT:  I'm sorry, I don't understand what you
 17 mean by "significant treatment."
 18         MR. HODGMAN:  Meaning he would be on the stand for
 19 quite a period of time.  We don't -- sequentially, for us,
 20 we're really -- following Mr. Kaelin, we're getting to a
 21 point where we're beginning to get into the search issues,
 22 which have now been put over to Tuesday.
 23         THE COURT:  Right.
 24         MR. HODGMAN:  We'll do what we can to bring in
 25 additional evidence -- excuse me -- witnesses, so that we
 26 may fill the court time tomorrow.  But this does present a
 27 bit of a shift for us, logistically.  We'll do our best to
 28 comply.
 01         THE COURT:  All right.  You know, if you come to a
 02 point where you're out of witnesses, we'll probably discuss
 03 timing again, at some point, as we're doing today, and see
 04 how we're doing.
 05         MR. UELMEN:  We're ready to proceed on the motion
 06 at any time.  If we get to it tomorrow, we're ready on it.
 07         THE COURT:  We'll see how we're progressing.  It's
 08 hard to say how fast we're going.  It may not go as quickly
 09 as it did this afternoon.  We'll simply play it by ear at
 10 this point, okay?
 11              All right.  Thank you very much.
 12         MR. HODGMAN:  Thank you, your Honor.
 13         MS. CLARK:  Thank you, Judge.
 14         MR. SHAPIRO:  Thank you, your Honor.
 04                                        )  no. BA097211
 05                            PLAINTIFF,  )
 05                                        )
 06             VS.                        )
 06                                        )
 07                                        )
 07 ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON,                )
 08   AKA O.J. SIMPSON,                    )
 08                                        )
 09                                        )
 09                                        )
 10                            DEFENDANT.  )
 10 _______________________________________)
 12                        )   SS
 22           DATED THIS 30th DAY OF June, 1994.
 24                _____________________________________
 24                      ARNELLA I. SIMS, CSR #2896
 25                       OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
 27                _____________________________________
 27                       ROSE FORBESS, CSR #4853
 28                       OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER