Preliminary Hearing - July 6, 1994
0001
01 IN THE MUNICIPAL COURT OF LOS ANGELES JUDICIAL DISTRICT
02 COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES, STATE OF CALIFORNIA
03 HON. KATHLEEN KENNEDY-POWELL, JUDGE DEPARTMENT 105
04 THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA, ) NO. BA097211
04 )
05 PLAINTIFF, )
05 )
06 VS. ) VOLUME 8
06 )
07 )
07 ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON, )
08 AKA O.J. SIMPSON, )
08 )
09 )
09 DEFENDANT. )
10 _______________________________________)
10
11
11
12 REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
12
13 WEDNESDAY, JULY 6, 1994
13
14
14
15 APPEARANCES:
15
16 FOR THE PLAINTIFF: MARCIA CLARK
16 WILLIAM HODGMAN
17 DEPUTIES DISTRICT ATTORNEY
17
18
18
19 FOR THE DEFENDANT: ROBERT SHAPIRO
19 GERALD UELMEN
20 PRIVATELY RETAINED COUNSEL
20
21
21
22
22
23 SPECIAL CIRCUMSTANCES
23
24
24
25
25
26
26 ARNELLA I. SIMS, CSR #2896
27 ROBERT GUNN, CSR #1539
27 OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
28
0002
01 MOTION TO SUPPRESS
01
02 I N D E X
02 VOIR
03 PEOPLE'S WITNESS(ES): DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS DIRE
03
04 MARK FUHRMAN 5 19 26
04
05 28 26
05
06
06 PHILLIP VANNATTER 26 68
07
07
08
08
09
09
10
10
11
11 -O0O-
12
12
13
13
14
14 EXHIBITS
15
15
16 DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT(S): FOR IDENTIFICATION
16
17 E - NOTES OF OFFICER
17 FUHRMAN 9
18
18 F - SERIES OF PHOTOS 9
19
19 G-1 - IMPOUND REPORT 12
20
20 G-2 - IMPOUND REPORT 12
21
21 G-3 - IMPOUND REPORT 12
22
22
23
23
0003
01 LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA; WEDNESDAY, JULY 6, 1994
02 9:04 a.m.
03 -o0o-
04
05 THE COURT: Good morning.
06 MS. CLARK: Good morning, your Honor.
07 MR. HODGMAN: Good morning, your Honor.
08 MR. UELMEN: Good morning, your honor.
09 MR. SHAPIRO: Good morning, your honor.
10 THE COURT: Once again on the record in the case of
11 people v. Simpson.
12 Defendant is present with counsel. People are
13 represented.
14 Miss Clark, for purposes of clarifying the record
15 with regard to the specific items of physical evidence that
16 we are dealing with in this motion, you had indicated to
17 the court that the people were only going to be offering
18 some items that were not recovered after the execution of
19 the search warrant; is that correct?
20 MS. CLARK: That's correct, your Honor.
21 THE COURT: And those items are the glove, in essence,
22 that was found in that pathway behind the guest quarters --
23 is that right?
24 MS. CLARK: That's one.
25 THE COURT: -- Some blood stains from the driveway
26 area --
27 MS. CLARK: That's correct.
28 THE COURT: -- And the blood stain from the door of
0004
01 the bronco?
02 MS. CLARK: That's correct.
03 THE COURT: Any other items?
04 MS. CLARK: Yes, your Honor.
05 THE COURT: And what would those be?
06 MS. CLARK: That would be the -- one of the blood
07 stains leaving the crime scene at Bundy, at the Bundy
08 address.
09 THE COURT: All right.
10 But that's not a part of this motion?
11 MS. CLARK: No.
12 THE COURT: Okay.
13 So it is those four items -- three items of
14 physical evidence from the simpson home and grounds or
15 vehicle that are the subject of the motion to suppress?
16 MS. CLARK: It might be -- in general, yes, your
17 Honor; that's correct.
18 It might be more than three items because there
19 are a number of blood spots on the driveway, but
20 collectively that's correct -- those three places.
21 THE COURT: And those items are enumerated in the
22 property report somewhere in items 1 through 11?
23 MS. CLARK: That's correct, your Honor.
24 THE COURT: All right.
25 I believe that detective Fuhrman is still on the
26 witness stand.
27 Sir, if you would retake the stand.
28 You have previously been sworn and remain under
0005
01 oath.
02
03 mark fuhrman,
04 having been previously duly sworn, resumed the stand, was
05 examined and testified further as follows:
06 MR. UELMEN: With respect to the limitation of the
07 scope of this motion, we would like to make it clear, for
08 the record, that the defendant will then reserve a de novo
09 hearing on the issues raised by the motion to quash the
10 search warrant prior to trial. That is not being addressed
11 in this motion.
12 THE COURT: That's correct.
13 The people have indicated they are not offering
14 any items recovered in the execution of the warrant and,
15 therefore, the warrant would not be in issue in this
16 proceeding.
17 MR. UELMEN: Thank you.
18 THE COURT: All right.
19
20 CROSS-EXAMINATION
21
22 BY MR. UELMEN:
23 Q Detective Fuhrman, we have located the notes that
24 you made in the course of your investigation in the murder
25 book at pages on 00198 through 00200.
26 Did you review those before you testified?
27 A No, I didn't.
28 Q Would you like to review them?
0006
01 A I don't think it would be necessary. Maybe
02 during the questioning, if you need to show them to me.
03 Q All right.
04 The notes begin with your observations upon your
05 arrival at the scene at 2:10 -- right? -- In the morning?
06 A Yes, sir.
07 Q Now, you indicate in these notes that Officer
08 Riske received a radio call, quote, "possible 459 suspects
09 there now, 874 south Bundy."
10 Is that a direct quotation of the radio call?
11 A Well, as much as it was relayed to me. And at
12 that time I didn't know the weight of that call, if it was
13 part of the homicide scene or it was something
14 independent.
15 That was Officer Riske giving me that
16 information. I picked up on that. I just made a notation
17 to question him later.
18 Q All right.
19 A "possible 459" refers to a possible burglary;
20 is that correct?
21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q And it refers to, plural, "suspects."
23 Was it your understanding that there were
24 suspects who were observed at the scene?
25 A I had no knowledge other than what he told me. I
26 didn't pursue it at that point. He was just briefing us
27 slightly on the scene, what he knew. Then he took us into
28 the scene. So I just made a notation.
0007
01 Q And you also noted where that original call came
02 from, that a resident of 874 heard something across the
03 street?
04 A I'm sorry. Would you repeat that.
05 Q . . . Resident of 874 heard something across the
06 street?
07 A That's just what Officer Riske said.
08 Again, the way I take notes is I put a numeral by
09 each notation and then, as I go back and start doing the
10 investigation, I will refer back to that note number and
11 then write maybe as much as several pages on one area that
12 I have to go back to.
13 These are just quick notes I made the very first
14 few minutes I was at the crime scene.
15 Q so these notes are actually prepared while you
16 are there to keep track of all of your observations and
17 information?
18 A Yes; What to go back to, what should be noted at
19 that time. There are no measurements involved in those
20 preliminary notes. That is the first run through the scene
21 and talking to the officers.
22 Q Excellent.
23 And these three pages are all of the notes that
24 you took on the morning of June 13; is that correct?
25 A Well, I was stopped. I was in the process of
26 taking notes, putting my notes to paper; and I was told
27 that robbery-homicide would be taking over the case. I
28 stopped taking notes at that point and gave those notes to
0008
01 detective phillips, who then passed them on to detective
02 Vannatter.
03 Q So, essentially, you stopped taking notes because
04 you believed you were off the case; is that correct?
05 A No. I knew I was off the case; It was no longer
06 my case. So I stopped there because the way they conducted
07 the crime scene or their notes -- I would be giving them
08 mine and they would be taking over from that point;
09 They would review my notes up to that point and then they
10 would continue making their own from the beginning -- when
11 they arrived at the scene.
12 Q And the notes actually stop at 875 south Bundy?
13 A Yes, sir.
14 Q You took no notes whatsoever of any of the events
15 in which you participated at 360 north Rockingham?
16 A That's correct.
17 Q When you left the scene at 875 Bundy and went to
18 the Rockingham address, did you bring any of the evidence
19 with you that you had encountered at the Bundy scene?
20 A I touched no evidence and I offered no reports.
21 Q Now, you indicated yesterday that one of the
22 reasons that your attention was drawn to the white bronco
23 was because it was parked rather strangely, I believe is
24 the quote?
25 A When I was walking towards it, the front of the
26 truck was facing my direction of travel; and it just
27 Looked -- it just looked a little strange the way it was
28 parked.
0009
01 Q You indicated the front was much closer to the
02 curb and the back was out into the roadway?
03 A Well, it was just -- it wasn't parked parallel to
04 the curb. It looked like it was parked hurriedly or
05 haphazardly.
06 Q You indicated the wheels were turned in towards
07 the curb?
08 A They were turned in towards the curb; and that
09 would be the way the vehicle was sitting -- with the rear
10 end jutting out -- was my impression walking forward. I
11 couldn't tell you how many degrees to the right they were.
12 Q All right.
13 MR. UELMEN: Your Honor, could we mark officer
14 Fuhrman's notes as exhibit E, defense exhibit E?
15 THE COURT: All right.
16 You say that consists of three pages?
17 MR. UELMEN: Three pages.
18 THE COURT: Yes. E.
19 BY MR. UELMEN:
20 Q I am handing you what we have marked as Exhibit
21 E.
22 Are those all of the notes you took of your
23 investigation in this case?
24 A Yes, sir.
25 Q All right.
26 MR. UELMEN: Now, we also located among the
27 photographs supplied to the defense four pictures of the
28 bronco automobile taken the morning of June 13. If we
0010
01 could mark these defense exhibit F, your Honor.
02 THE COURT: Yes.
03 MR. UELMEN: And they are numbered 1, 2, 3 and 4.
04 Q Do those photographs accurately represent the
05 position of the bronco automobile as you observed it in the
06 early morning hours of June 13?
07 A If I could point to the photos.
08 Photo 1 we previously saw.
09 Photo 2 really doesn't show the direction I was
10 walking.
11 Photo 3, it seems the camera is more to the
12 left.
13 When I was looking at the bronco, I was several
14 feet back and I believe I was more to the right of the
15 vehicle, where the line of the vehicle seemed like the rear
16 end was out a little bit more.
17 As you can see here in photo 4, the right tire is
18 about 4 inches onto the concrete part of the asphalt
19 roadway; where the rear tire is completely on the asphalt,
20 with a couple inches to spare. And that's what I'm talking
21 about. It looked like it wasn't casually parked or
22 carefully parked. It wouldn't be how I would probably park
23 my vehicle. It just looked a little strange walking up on
24 it.
25 Q But these photographs do accurately depict how
26 the car was parked?
27 A I remembered that it was more extreme, and I am
28 not sure that this photo shows the way my view of that was
0011
01 walking up towards it from a greater distance than this and
02 a little more to the right; But I would say it would be
03 fair to say --
04 Q Are you suggesting the automobile was moved
05 between the time you saw it and the time these photographs
06 were taken?
07 A I am not suggesting that at all. I am just
08 suggesting where our photographer took the photos from it
09 doesn't really show where exactly I was walking. I was
10 walking -- almost in the middle of the roadway walking down
11 more to the right of the vehicle.
12 I am not saying it was moved. It just seems my
13 view might have given me a more extreme angle than these
14 photos show.
15 Q OKAY.
16 When you walked up to the automobile, did you
17 check to see if the engine was warm?
18 A I touched the hood, and it was not warm; but I
19 also didn't feel any moisture. Of course, I am not sure
20 how much of a dew there was that morning. I also didn't
21 look at the lawns.
22 Q All right.
23 When you first observed the stain on the door,
24 did the stain appear to be wet, or damp?
25 A I didn't touch it; and it didn't appear like it
26 was flowing, or moving. I would say it was -- appeared to
27 be dried.
28 Q I asked you yesterday about some coffee stains.
0012
01 You indicated you did not observe any food stains or
02 possible coffee stains on the car?
03 A That's true. I didn't observe them.
04 mr. uelmen: We have located three different impound
05 reports which appear in the murder book at 00108, 00110 and
06 00111; and I would ask these be marked as exhibits G-1, -2
07 and -3.
08 THE COURT: All right.
09 by MR. UELMEN:
10 Q Now, these are all vehicle investigation reports
11 related to a 1994 ford bronco, 3cwz788.
12 That's the bronco in question; is that correct?
13 A I believe it is. I don't recall the plate.
14 Q All right.
15 Now, one of these reports is filled out when the
16 automobile is moved; is that correct?
17 A Well, yes.
18 It could be filled out prior, too; but it
19 generally is, yes, when the impound is complete.
20 Q The first of these reports indicates June 13 at
21 7:30 in the morning.
22 Were you aware of the car being impounded at 7:30
23 in the morning?
24 A No.
25 Q The second of these reports, which refers to a
26 time of June 13 at 3:30 in the afternoon, 1530, notes:
27 "special instructions: take vehicle to print shack P.A.B.,
28 across street from parker center. Two coffee stains on
0013
01 hood, disregard. Not related."
02 What does that mean?
03 A Officer Don thompson, who was handling security
04 on the Rockingham gate, said when the media was at the
05 scene and there was a rush of activity, one of the news
06 people running by or walking by placed a cup on the hood of
07 the bronco; They immediately grabbed it, admonished them,
08 obviously, "don't do that again." and he informed me there
09 was coffee stains. I believe he also informed other
10 detectives at the scene of the same thing.
11 Q Now, had any yellow tape or crime scene tape been
12 placed around the automobile?
13 A No. And I believe the reason for that is we
14 didn't want to draw more attention to the vehicle than we
15 wanted at that point.
16 We had two officers assigned to -- specifically
17 just to that vehicle to secure it, and they did that; And
18 when the rush of media came by, it was really something
19 they couldn't foresee and couldn't do anything about.
20 Q Okay.
21 MR. UELMEN: If we could mark these reports, your
22 Honor, as G-1, G-2 and G-3.
23 Q Are these the vehicle reports?
24 A I have never seen these reports, sir.
25 Q I want to take you back to your --
26 A Sir, I might add, if I could, I do recognize the
27 name on the bottom of the one report. One of the authors
28 of this report is officer thompson, who talked to me at the
0014
01 scene about the coffee stains.
02 Q Is his name on the first of those reports, the
03 7:30 a.m. report?
04 A No. This is -- the time of occurrence is 1530.
05 That is officer Thompson's report. I have no knowledge
06 about the other two.
07 Q All right.
08 When you were in the room of Mr. Kaelin
09 immediately after you went to the back of the premises at
10 Rockingham, were there any windows in that back wall of
11 Mr. Kato's room -- or Mr. Kaelin's room?
12 Let me get the chart out here.
13 A I can answer that, sir.
14 There are no windows to that wall in Mr. Kaelin's
15 room.
16 Q OKAY.
17 I want to have you --
18 MR. uelmen: Could we have defense exhibit A?
19 Q Your memory is no windows in the back wall?
20 A No. There are windows in the back wall, but
21 there was no window in the wall where the air conditioning
22 duct was or west of that air conditioning duct on that
23 wall of Mr. Kato's room. No, there wasn't.
24 Q Let's have you refer to where in the wall the
25 duct was.
26 Referring to defense exhibit a, would you point
27 out where in that wall the air conditioning duct was.
28 A Mr. Kato's room is the first bungalow. The air
0015
01 conditioning duct was probably just a little off center of
02 this wall of his room, probably just to the right of his
03 bed. There's no windows west of there.
04 I am not sure if there is a window for the
05 bathroom.
06 I am positive there was a window, maybe two
07 windows, for Arnelle's room; and I am not positive in the
08 back.
09 I see a window that is depicted here, but I don't
10 recall that.
11 Q Did you make any effort to look through those
12 windows at all to see if anyone was back there?
13 A To look through which windows, sir?
14 Q The windows in the back wall of either the
15 bathroom or Arnelle's room.
16 A No, I didn't look through there. No.
17 I believe -- excuse me, but I believe this
18 window, the one window here, was the frosted type of opaque
19 window; and I am not positive, but this, I think, was a
20 higher window, elevated past my point of view. I am not
21 positive on that.
22 Q All right.
23 Would you like to write a "W" where you indicated
24 there was a window in Mr. Kato's bathroom.
25 A I am a little light of a pencil.
26 You want a "W" where?
27 Q At the location where there was a window in
28 Mr. Kato's room or the adjoining bathroom.
0016
01 A I don't recall a window in his bathroom. I said
02 there possibly might have been one, but -- I know there
03 were a couple of windows when I went past the air
04 conditioner, but I don't recall if one of them was his
05 window.
06 Q So you don't recall observing in the quarters
07 occupied by Mr. Kato a window?
08 A No, I don't.
09 Q Now, in preparing your testimony for yesterday
10 and today, did you confer with the district attorneys who
11 are prosecuting this case?
12 A Yes. We talked.
13 Q Was this just a conference between yourself and
14 the district attorneys, or were the other detectives
15 involved in the case present?
16 A No. We didn't talk about the case in the
17 presence of the detectives. In fact, at one point marcia
18 and I just talked between ourselves; but it was nothing very
19 pointed, just about the tactics of the defense and that
20 everything is going fine; "just tell everything that you
21 did" and "you are doing fine."
22 Q Now, was this after the motion to suppress was
23 filed a week ago today?
24 A I'm sorry. Are you talking about -- which
25 conversation?
26 Q The conversations with either Miss Clark or
27 Mr. Hodgman?
28 A We discussed my portion of this case prior to the
0017
01 motion to suppress. They asked me just exactly what went
02 down; and they said, "well, we are comfortable with that."
03 and that was pretty much it.
04 Q You did have not have any discussion of these
05 events after the motion was filed on June 29?
06 A We reiterated the same thing we talked about
07 before. They said, you know, "what did you do then?" much
08 the same as they would be bringing me through a testimony;
09 And they felt comfortable with what transpired and what I
10 had to say.
11 Q When you say "they," who were you meeting with?
12 A Mr. Hodgman and Miss Clark.
13 Q And were any other detectives present at that
14 time?
15 A No. I talked to them by themselves.
16 Q Now, if you were giving someone directions to go
17 to Mr. Simpson's home on Rockingham, how would you direct
18 them?
19 A From the Bundy location?
20 Q Yes.
21 A I would say, probably, to go northbound on Bundy
22 to -- there's two ways you could go: eastbound on
23 San Vicente past Cliffwood to Rockingham or go up Cliffwood
24 northbound from San Vicente -- that would probably be the
25 easiest way -- Cliffwood northbound to sunset and sunset
26 east to either Bristol circle or Rockingham and then go
27 northbound once again. Bristol circle will eventually
28 curve you around to Rockingham. Cliffwood, if you went
0018
01 northbound from sunset, would eventually bring you to
02 Ashford; and Rockingham would go directly to the house.
03 Q Wouldn't the simplest way to be go up Bundy to
04 sunset and then go left to Rockingham?
05 A The simplest on those streets is lights to go
06 across sunset and not get lost.
07 If you get to Bristol circle, it is kind of
08 confusing. There is Bristol circle, Bristol court. It is
09 kind of confusing.
10 Q If you could reiterate for us the precise time,
11 as you remember, that you first observed the glove on the
12 premises at 360 Rockingham.
13 A It is pretty hard to be precise, but I will get
14 as close as I can.
15 We arrived at approximately 5:10.
16 Q I would just like to know the time you observed
17 the glove.
18 A Give me a moment.
19 I would probably say approximately 6:15 to 6:30.
20 Q 6:15 to 6:30?
21 A Maybe it could be as early as 6; but, like I
22 said, I didn't look at my watch at that point.
23 mr. uelmen: Thank you.
24 THE COURT: Miss Clark, do you have any additional
25 questions?
26 MS. CLARK: A few. Thank you, your Honor.
27
28
0019
01 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
02
03 BY MS. CLARK:
04 Q The note that was pointed out to you by defense
05 counsel just now concerning Officer Riske, that was a radio
06 call that was given to Officer Riske?
07 A I believe so. I just -- I heard him indicate
08 that he heard the call. I don't know if it was directed at
09 his police unit or another unit and he picked up the audio
10 part of the call.
11 He just informed me of that situation. I didn't
12 know if it was related at that time.
13 Q Did you ever determine how a burglary call came
14 to be placed concerning a murder investigation?
15 A No. Once I was no longer part of the primary
16 investigative team, I was at the direction of Vannatter and
17 Lange; and they pretty much dictated the investigative path
18 we were going to take. And that's why I gave them my notes
19 and just followed their direction for the remainder of the
20 time.
21 Q What, if any, impact did that information
22 concerning the radio call received by Officer Riske have on
23 your actions or your decisions on that night or early
24 morning of June 13?
25 A Well, it would lend to the possibility there were
26 people other than the two victims at the scene, which
27 corroborated the footprints leading away from the scene.
28 It would say that someone -- a victim, a suspect -- or I
0020
01 believe there was a call that said "suspects" -- it could
02 have been one -- could also have been in the struggle in
03 front of the house. I had no idea because I never took it
04 any farther.
05 Q So did that radio call received by Officer Riske
06 have any impact on the decisions you made later concerning
07 the case, what to do as the events unfolded through the
08 early morning hours of June 13?
09 A At the Bundy location?
10 Q Right.
11 A For me, no, because I was relieved of the
12 responsibility of decision making at that point; and, as I
13 said, I was just going at the direction of detective
14 Vannatter and Lange.
15 Q Do you know whether they ever knew of that radio
16 call that Officer Riske got concerning a burglary in
17 progress?
18 A I know they received my notes; so I assume they
19 read them and they did talk to Officer Riske. I was not
20 privileged to be there when they talked to Officer Riske;
21 so --
22 Q You don't know what they found out about that?
23 A No.
24 Q all right.
25 With respect to finding the glove, after you
26 found the glove, what did you do?
27 You saw the glove on the walk. Then what did you
28 do?
0021
01 A I continued eastbound on the path that went to
02 the rear of the property; and I spent -- I am not going to
03 say a considerable amount of time -- I am going to say
04 about 15 minutes looking for a person that could have left
05 that glove there, which indicated somebody was injured. I
06 looked in all places I believed a human could secret
07 himself or collapse in that area, and then I returned to
08 the front of the residence.
09 Q So you walked all the way back to that back area
10 that you have indicated earlier on the diagram, shown here
11 behind what is marked on the defense diagram as "Arnelle's
12 room"?
13 A Behind that location, yes.
14 Q Then you walked all the way back up this path?
15 Is that what you are saying?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And all the way around through the driveway and
18 into the front?
19 A I believe detective phillips was standing in
20 front of the residence, and I spoke with him.
21 Q And when you got inside, you said you spoke to
22 the detectives?
23 A Yes.
24 I believe detective Phillips informed detective
25 Vannatter and Lange of the discovery, and they came out to
26 me in the front.
27 Q Did they come out one by one or altogether?
28 A One by one.
0022
01 Q So did you go with them each time?
02 A Yes.
03 Q And who did you go with first?
04 A Detective phillips.
05 Q And what was the route you took with him?
06 A The same route that I took originally from the
07 front entrance: directly south in front of the garage and
08 then entering the path going eastbound, continuing down,
09 explaining the areas and how and why I determined that the
10 main house was separated by this corridor from the
11 bungalows and how the architecture changed, how -- I was
12 describing that to them -- And then how I looked down and
13 saw the dark object 15, 20 feet from me and, as I got
14 closer, I realized what it was and it was right almost
15 exactly where Mr. Kaelin described a crashing noise.
16 Q And the area on the wall where he described the
17 crashing noise, was there any window near to the area he
18 described hearing the noise come from?
19 A no.
20 Q So, then, after taking detective phillips down to
21 that area and describing everything that you saw, who did
22 you take next?
23 A Detective Vannatter.
24 Q And did you do the same thing with him?
25 A Yes; exactly the same thing.
26 Q And so each time you went, you took the detective
27 all the way down to where the glove was and brought them
28 all the way back?
0023
01 A Yes.
02 Q And then did you do the same with detective
03 Lange?
04 A Yes.
05 Q Did you take any of the detectives all the way
06 back to the area behind Arnelle's room that you described
07 going to yourself earlier?
08 A I don't believe so.
09 I described to detective phillips -- I am almost
10 positive I did to both the other detectives -- I scooted
11 underneath the air conditioner -- it pretty much covered
12 the path. it was elevated, but it covered the path -- I
13 ran into the spider webs; and I told them that -- that I
14 looked in the area but I didn't see anything that would
15 lead us to believe anybody was back in that area.
16 Q When you say you scooted under the air
17 conditioner, did you have to stoop down? Is that what you
18 are saying?
19 A Yes; Scoot down. You don't have to get on your
20 hands and knees, but you have to get down low.
21 It goes on an angle. It is an air conditioner
22 that sticks out a foot and a half, 2 feet and has braces
23 that go at a 45-degree angle from the air conditioner,
24 that attach to the wall at the bottom, below it.
25 Q After you took the last detective all the way
26 back to show the glove, did you come back to the front of
27 the house?
28 A Yes.
0024
01 Q And what did you do then?
02 A I didn't do anything. I just stood there and
03 waited.
04 And I went in and I heard a discussion by
05 detective Vannatter, a comment made shortly Thereafter,
06 "we are going to have to handle this like a crime scene."
07 Q Do you know approximately what time that was when
08 you heard that discussion?
09 A No. After that I came out front.
10 To be honest with you, I was a little taken back
11 by what had transpired. We didn't enter with any intention
12 of finding anything there, and I just kind of stood out
13 there and I was really kind of collecting my thoughts.
14 When I found the glove back here on this pathway,
15 I will have to -- I have to admit to you that the Adrenalin
16 started pumping because I didn't really know what was going
17 on; and no matter if I found a victim or a suspect, I still
18 had some type of a very serious situation at that time. And
19 I think I was coming down from that a little bit.
20 Q You mean -- when you say "the Adrenalin," you mean
21 from seeing the crime scene?
22 A No.
23 Q From seeing the glove?
24 A When I found the glove and actually realized this
25 glove was very close in description and color to the glove
26 at the crime scene, my heart started pounding and I
27 realized what I had probably found.
28 When that gets going and you never get a chance
0025
01 to run it off or get rid of it, you get kind of a down
02 time; and I think I was collecting my -- not composure but
03 my thoughts a little bit out front.
04 Q So while you were collecting your thoughts and
05 relaxing after your discovery, you heard a discussion going
06 on inside the house?
07 A Yes. I walked into the front of the residence;
08 and in the kitchen, detective Lange and Vannatter were
09 discussing what had been found. I believe detective
10 phillips was in there, also. And they were discussing "we
11 really have got another crime scene here," and a search
12 warrant was brought up -- "We have to get a search
13 warrant." Detective Vannatter said that. And I don't know
14 exactly what time that was.
15 Q You were not in the frame of mind to examine your
16 watch or look at a clock?
17 A like I said before, I was kind of taken back by
18 the whole event; so -- we didn't go up there for this,
19 And --
20 MS. CLARK: May I have a moment, your Honor?
21 THE COURT: Yes.
22 MS. CLARK: Thank you.
23 Thank you. I have nothing further.
24 THE COURT: Mr. Uelmen.
25
26
27
28
0026
01 RECROSS-EXAMINATION
02
03 BY MR. UELMEN:
04 Q Detective Fuhrman, who was in charge at the
05 Rockingham scene? Which of the four detectives?
06 A Detective Vannatter.
07 Q And like yourself, detective phillips had been
08 relieved of further responsibility in the case?
09 A Well, at that time it was actually three
10 detectives that responded to the Bundy scene: myself,
11 detective Phillips and detective Roberts. He got there
12 after us; And he was interviewing witnesses, I believe the
13 witnesses that saw the dog. He had gone to West L.A.
14 station. So while we were there at the scene, we were all
15 relieved.
16 Q all right.
17 Now, with respect to the excitement you felt at
18 encountering the glove, you realized immediately that this
19 may have broken the case?
20 A I don't think it was excitement. I was caught on
21 a 2-foot path in a -- poorly lit, with a little tiny
22 flashlight, by myself, with no vest; And I must admit that I
23 think the only reason I proceeded is I felt more that I
24 might have had a victim than a suspect.
25 I don't know why I thought that. Like I said, I
26 did not believe the circumstances would unfold as they did
27 when I led these detectives up to Rockingham.
28 I continued, probably hoping that I could find
0027
01 some answer for this glove or somebody that had been
02 injured or something; but it was more alert than excitement.
03 Q And the first person to whom you reported finding
04 the glove was detective phillips; is that correct?
05 A Yes.
06 He was in front of the residence. He was the
07 first person I saw. And I said, "ron, come here. I got to
08 talk to you."
09 Q And you took detective phillips back to see the
10 glove before you even informed detective Vannatter that the
11 glove had been found?
12 A Yes.
13 Q So Vannatter learned about the glove -- what? --
14 About a half-hour after you found it?
15 A No. I think it would be within 15 minutes, give
16 or take.
17 Q You indicated you spent 15 minutes after you saw
18 the glove searching this area behind the house?
19 A I thought you meant after I talked to detective
20 phillips.
21 Yes. I did do that and then came and talked to
22 detective phillips.
23 Q And then came and talked to detectives phillips
24 and took him back?
25 A Right.
26 Q That took about another 15 minutes?
27 A Ten or fifteen.
28 Q So detective Vannatter learned about the glove
0028
01 the first time a half-hour after you discovered it?
02 A That could be very close to the time, yes.
03 MR. UELMEN: Thank you.
04 Nothing further.
05 THE COURT: Anything further?
06
07 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
08
09 BY MS. CLARK:
10 Q Detective Fuhrman, you are estimating time for us
11 now, are you not?
12 A Yes. I can't remember -- outside of at the crime
13 scene on Bundy, I didn't look at my watch much at all that
14 morning.
15 Q At the Rockingham address, again, are these
16 estimates of time as to the amount of time that elapsed
17 between certain events?
18 A Absolutely.
19 MS. CLARK: Thank you.
20 Nothing further.
21 THE COURT: Anything further, Mr. Uelmen?
22 MR. UELMEN: Nothing further.
23 THE COURT: Thank you, detective.
24 I remind you, you are not to discuss your
25 testimony with any other witness in this matter. You can
26 discuss it with the lawyers, if necessary; and that's all.
27 Thank you.
28 MS. CLARK: People call detective Vannatter.
0029
01 THE COURT: Mr. Uelmen, exhibits G-1, -2 and -3 are on
02 the witness stand. Would you mind collecting those,
03 please.
04 MR. UELMEN: Certainly.
05 THE COURT: Detective, you were sworn yesterday in
06 connection with these proceedings; so you may retake the
07 witness stand. I remind you are still under oath.
08 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
09
10 phillip vannatter,
11 recalled as a witness by and on behalf of the People,
12 having been previously duly sworn, resumed the stand, was
13 examined and testified further as follows:
14 THE COURT: State your name, for the record.
15 THE WITNESS: Phillip Vannatter.
16 THE COURT: Spell your last name, please.
17 THE WITNESS: V, as in Victor, -a-n-n-a-t-t-e-r.
18 THE COURT: Miss Clark.
19 MS. CLARK: Thank you, your Honor.
20
21 DIRECT EXAMINATION
22
23 BY MS. CLARK:
24 Q Detective Vannatter, tell us what you do for a
25 living.
26 A Yes.
27 I am a police detective, Los Angeles police
28 department, assigned to robbery-homicide division, homicide
0030
01 special section.
02 Q And how long have you been assigned to homicide
03 special section of the robbery-homicide division?
04 A I have been assigned to robbery-homicide division
05 for 15 years and homicide special section for about 8
06 years.
07 Q How long have you been on the force altogether?
08 A 25-1/2 years this month.
09 Q And how many homicides have you investigated in
10 those 25-1/2 years?
11 A Well, I have been assigned actually working
12 homicides starting 1973 and have probably been personally
13 involved in over 200 and have probably been to or assisted
14 in 5- to 600 crime scenes.
15 Q Can you tell us what the robbery-homicide
16 division does?
17 A I can tell you what the homicide special section
18 does, yes.
19 Q OKAY.
20 A We are a section set up to handle high profile or
21 very involved or serial-type murder investigations.
22 Q And in that regard, sir, with respect to the case
23 now before the court, what is your role in this case?
24 A What is my role?
25 Q Yes.
26 A I was assigned this case at -- I got the original
27 phone call on the 13th of June at 3 o'clock in the
28 morning. I responded to the scene and took charge of the
0031
01 investigation.
02 Q So you are one of the investigating officers in
03 charge of this case?
04 A That's correct, yes.
05 Q And how many others are there?
06 A Well, there's my partner, detective Tom Lange.
07 Q And is he also assigned to the robbery-homicide,
08 homicide special?
09 A Yes.
10 Q You got the call, you tell us, at 3 o'clock in
11 the morning?
12 A I got the original phone call at my home at 3
13 o'clock in the morning. That's correct.
14 Q And where did you go pursuant to that call?
15 A I was instructed to go to 875 south Bundy. I
16 prepared myself and responded to that location.
17 Q What time did you arrive?
18 A At 4:05 in the morning.
19 Q What did you see when you got there?
20 A I was met by detective phillips and detective
21 Mark Fuhrman. Detective phillips is the homicide
22 coordinator for west Los Angeles division.
23 I was told that there was a double homicide at
24 that location and that one of the victims had been
25 identified as nicole simpson.
26 Detective phillips further told me that two minor
27 children, two small children, had been taken from the
28 residence and were presently in custody at West L.A.
0032
01 division.
02 Q Now, did someone walk you through the crime scene
03 so that you could see what you had there?
04 A Yes.
05 Q Who was that?
06 A Detective phillips gave me a walk-through of the
07 crime scene.
08 Q Now, when you say "a walk-through," did you step
09 through the evidence?
10 A No. We approached the actual scene of the two
11 victims through a planter area that would have been south
12 of the actual location of the two victims; and then after
13 viewing that location, he gave me a walk through the
14 walkway that headed west, to the back of the apartment
15 building, that led to the alley.
16 Q So you stood from a position where you would not
17 disturb anything in terms of the crime scene or the
18 evidence in it?
19 A Definitely. I was standing in the foliage in a
20 planter.
21 Q Can you please describe for us the condition in
22 which you found the victims in this case?
23 A Yes.
24 Nicole Simpson was lying at the entrance gate, on
25 the walkway right in front of the front step that stepped
26 up to go up toward the residence. The gate was open.
27 And ron Goldman was lying directly north of her
28 location, in a planter area that would have been on the
0033
01 north side of the walkway.
02 Q Now, were you able to tell what the cause of
03 death was at that point?
04 A No. I could not.
05 It appeared to be massive injuries. There was a
06 lot of blood. Blood had actually drained and run down the
07 walkway towards the sidewalk. There was a lot of blood
08 there. I couldn't tell other than there was some type of
09 massive injury.
10 Q Now, were you able to see any evidence near
11 either one of the victims?
12 A Yes.
13 Q What did you see?
14 A I saw at the feet of ron Goldman a man's leather
15 glove, left-handed leather brown glove.
16 Just below that, which would have been just
17 directly southeast of that, was a blue knit cap.
18 Also, between the two victims I saw a white
19 envelope lying on the ground. There was a set of keys and
20 a pager.
21 Q Did you go into any other areas of the crime
22 scene to examine them other than that front area where you
23 saw the victims?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Where did you go?
26 A Detective phillips took me west on the walkway
27 that would be on the north side of the residence to show
28 Me -- and I observed -- bloody footprints leading -- that
0034
01 appeared to be leading from the actual crime scene, the
02 location of the two victims, to the rear of the building,
03 along the walkway.
04 I also observed as he was showing me, as we are
05 going through, blood droplets that appeared to be not
06 associated with the two victims, as if the person leaving
07 the bloody footprints was dripping blood from something, as
08 they appeared to be straight-down drops on the ground.
09 Q Did they appear to you -- those blood drops -- to
10 be alongside the bloody footprints?
11 A Yes, definitely.
12 Q When you say "footprints," were those barefoot
13 prints?
14 A No. They were shoe prints.
15 Q Could you see a heel in those prints?
16 A There was a pattern, yes. I could see a pattern.
17 Q I'm sorry. Did you say to what side of the
18 footprints you were seeing the blood drops?
19 A to the left side.
20 Q Thank you.
21 Now, having made the observations you did at the
22 crime scene, sir, did you continue to confer with the West
23 L.A. detectives, detective Fuhrman and detective phillips?
24 A Yes, that's correct.
25 Q Why did you do that if this was your case?
26 A I was awaiting the arrival of my partner, who was
27 approximately 20 to 25 minutes behind me. I instructed the
28 two West L.A. detectives we would take charge of the scene;
0035
01 and I waited for my partner to arrive to acclimate him with
02 the scene, also.
03 Q At some point did you leave the scene of 875
04 south Bundy?
05 A Yes.
06 Q Why did you do that?
07 A Well, a number of reasons.
08 Knowing that one of the victims had been
09 identified as nicole Simpson, knowing that her husband --
10 or ex-husband at that point was a very well-known person;
11 that we had two children in custody, two minor children
12 that had been taken from this very traumatic scene, we made
13 a determination to go to Mr. Simpson's residence and
14 attempt to notify him of the death before the media got
15 word of it and to also make arrangements for the
16 disposition of the two children that were his children.
17 Q So who went with you to the location of
18 Mr. Simpson's residence?
19 A There were three others besides myself. Myself
20 and my partner and detective Fuhrman and detective
21 phillips.
22 Q Why did detective phillips and detective Fuhrman
23 go with you?
24 A They had been originally involved in the
25 investigation. They were assisting us. And we went up
26 there for a number of reasons.
27 Again, I say -- also, knowing the close proximity
28 of the crime scene to where Mr. Simpson lived, it was also
0036
01 my feeling, my belief, that we needed to check the welfare
02 up there, also. This was a very traumatic, bloody scene.
03 Q Tell me, sir -- so you drove actually that night
04 from 875 south Bundy to 360 Rockingham avenue?
05 A That's correct.
06 Q Can you estimate for us about how long it took
07 you to get from 875 south Bundy to 360 Rockingham avenue?
08 A Probably not more than five minutes.
09 Q So what happened after you got to the Rockingham
10 avenue address?
11 A We drove up Rockingham north from sunset
12 boulevard to Ashford street. We turned right, east, and
13 parked at the curb and walked to the gate. And as I drove
14 in, I noticed a white ford bronco parked at the -- this
15 would be the east curb of Rockingham -- parked on the
16 Ashford south curb and got out and attempted to utilize the
17 intercom to raise someone in the home.
18 Q And the intercom you are talking about, where was
19 that located?
20 A That intercom is located on the east side of the
21 Ashford street gate. And looking at this diagram, it would
22 have been right in this area right here.
23 MS. CLARK: For the record, the witness has pointed
24 To -- it is hard to describe -- the area where what appears
25 to be a wall indicated up by Ashford street meets the edge
26 of the driveway that is to the right, the right edge of the
27 driveway.
28 THE COURT: All right.
0037
01 BY MS. CLARK:
02 Q Was that a button you pressed?
03 A Yes, that's correct.
04 Q When you pressed the button, could you hear
05 anything?
06 A Yes. I could hear the phone ringing inside the
07 residence.
08 Q Did you get any response?
09 A No.
10 Q When you drove to the Ashford street side, did
11 you come up Rockingham first?
12 A Yes, that's correct.
13 Q As you drove up Rockingham, did you notice
14 whether there were any cars parked outside the Rockingham
15 gate in front of the residence?
16 A Yes, I did.
17 Q What did you notice?
18 A I noticed a white ford bronco parked at the east
19 curb of Rockingham just north of the Rockingham gate to the
20 residence.
21 Q Showing you the exhibits that have been
22 previously marked collectively People's 8, can you tell me
23 if you recognize what you see there in photograph -a, -b
24 and -c?
25 A Yes. I do.
26 Q What is that?
27 A That is the ford bronco that was parked at the
28 curb.
0038
01 Q So you rang the first time and you received no
02 answer.
03 What did you do next?
04 A well, we rang the bell for a period of time,
05 probably 10 to 15 minutes, attempting to raise someone in
06 the residence.
07 There was a light on on the bottom floor. It
08 appeared to be toward the south side of the house. There
09 was also a light on in the upstairs portion of the home.
10 We rang the bell for a period of time, trying to
11 get some response; and we didn't.
12 Q Could you estimate how long you rang the bell
13 for, without getting a response?
14 A Oh, I believe it was in the area of 10 to 15
15 minutes, probably.
16 During this time I noticed a westec security
17 sign, which is a private security company that works in
18 that area; And I requested detective phillips to contact
19 them to see if we could get a telephone phone number for
20 the residence.
21 Q And did he do so?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Did you have a phone with you, a mobile phone?
24 A He did. I didn't.
25 Q Did he use that to make a phone call to westec?
26 A Yes.
27 Q And after making that phone call, what happened
28 next?
0039
01 A We continued to ring the bell.
02 In the meantime I walked back around -- while the
03 other detectives were there, I walked back around and
04 looked at the ford bronco and noticed the bronco was parked
05 like it had been hastily parked at the curb, with the front
06 end a little closer to the curb than the rear end. And
07 detective Fuhrman was with me -- or there when I got there,
08 and he directed me to look in the rear of the vehicle.
09 In the rear there was a package that was
10 addressed, I believe, to Orenthal productions. There was a
11 shovel and a piece of plastic wrapped up in it.
12 Q I'm sorry, sir; But the package you said was
13 addressed to Orenthal productions, did that mean something
14 to you?
15 A Yeah. It indicated to me it was most likely
16 Mr. Simpson's vehicle because I knew his name was Orenthal.
17 Q OKAY.
18 A I asked detective Fuhrman to run a department of
19 motor vehicle registration check on the vehicle.
20 Q Did he give you the results of that check?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And what was the result?
23 A That the vehicle was registered to Hertz Corp.
24 Q And what, if any, significance did that
25 information have to you?
26 A Well, I knew that Mr. Simpson was a spokesperson
27 for Hertz Corp. I believed it was his vehicle.
28 Q So you made the observations of the ford bronco?
0040
01 A Yes.
02 Q Then what?
03 A Walked back around.
04 By this time westec had sent a unit to our
05 location.
06 Q Did you speak to them?
07 A Detective phillips did.
08 Q In your presence?
09 A Yeah.
10 I was standing back. I didn't hear the total
11 context of the conversation, but detective phillips told me
12 that he was having a hard time securing a phone number for
13 the location and they were sending a supervisor to the
14 scene.
15 Q Did you or detective phillips find out whether
16 westec had been given advance notice that the defendant was
17 going to be out of town?
18 A Yes.
19 Q And what was that information?
20 A The information was that westec had no prior
21 knowledge of any travel plans for the occupants of that
22 residence. And they also informed us there was supposed to
23 be a live-in maid at the location.
24 Q Did you wait for a supervisor from westec to come
25 out and give you the home phone number?
26 A Yes.
27 Q And what did you do in the meantime?
28 A We still attempted to ring the bell to raise
0041
01 someone in the residence. At that point I was becoming a
02 little worried. It seemed like there were lights on. We
03 knew there was supposed to be a maid there. And we were
04 getting no response.
05 During this period of time, detective Fuhrman
06 came to me and directed me back to the ford bronco and --
07 Q What did he tell you?
08 A Pardon?
09 Q What did he tell you?
10 A He told me he saw what he thought -- what he
11 believed to be blood on the car, and he directed me back to
12 the vehicle and pointed out an area along the driver's side
13 door handle of the car.
14 I looked at it; and it appeared to be blood to me,
15 also.
16 At that point I told detective Fuhrman that I was
17 really worried based on the fact we had a very violent
18 murder scene within five minutes of Mr. Simpson's
19 residence; we had no knowledge of any travel plans that he
20 had; the security company was not notified; there was
21 supposed to be a live-in maid there; there were lights on
22 in the residence; and there appeared to be blood on the
23 outside. I become very concerned at that point.
24 Q Now, at some point did the westec supervisor
25 arrive?
26 A Yeah. He was there. He came. He gave a phone
27 number to detective phillips.
28 Q And did you dial that phone number?
0042
01 A Detective phillips did with his mobile phone,
02 yes.
03 Q What was the result of that?
04 A We got an answerphone from inside the residence,
05 indicating -- the voice on the answerphone -- something to
06 the extent, "this is O.J. I am not here. Leave a
07 Message" -- Something like that.
08 Q So there was no response using the phone number?
09 A No. There was an answerphone.
10 Q So at this point, having received no response
11 through phone calls to the house or ringing at the gate,
12 with lights on in the house and all that you learned from
13 westec, you saw the blood on the bronco?
14 A That's correct.
15 Q What did you decide to do?
16 MR. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, I am going to object to the
17 form of the question.
18 THE COURT: Mr. Shapiro, Mr. Uelmen is apparently
19 handling this part of the motion.
20 MR. SHAPIRO: I am going to do this witness.
21 THE COURT: You are going to do it?
22 MR. SHAPIRO: Yes. So I would make an objection at
23 this point in time that the question -- 90 percent of it is
24 restating his testimony.
25 The question was what did you do next.
26 Motion to strike the question.
27 THE COURT: The question is not evidence.
28 MR. SHAPIRO: I understand that, but we object to the
0043
01 form of the question.
02 THE COURT: Miss Clark, I really am paying attention.
03 You don't have to repeat everything.
04 MS. CLARK: I'm sorry. I didn't mean to indicate you
05 weren't. I was just making a foundational showing with the
06 officer to bring him along.
07 Q So based on all you knew, what did you decide to
08 do?
09 A I conferred with my partner very briefly, told
10 him my concerns and made a decision we should go in there
11 to check and see if everything was okay.
12 Q What were your concerns, sir?
13 A Well, my concern was, again, we were within five
14 minutes of a very, very brutal murder scene. I knew the
15 scene was connected with Mr. Simpson because it was -- his
16 ex-wife and children were there.
17 After arriving there and learning that no one had
18 any knowledge of any prior travel plans, seeing lights on
19 in the residence, being told that there should be a live-in
20 maid, I was concerned that something had occurred there,
21 whether I had a second murder scene, whether I had someone
22 injured, whether I had someone that was stalking
23 Mr. Simpson and his wife, whatever.
24 I became concerned someone could be hurt or
25 injured in that location.
26 Q At that point, how long had you been outside the
27 residence at 360 Rockingham, attempting to reach someone
28 inside?
0044
01 A I would have to estimate that. I would say in
02 the vicinity of 40 minutes.
03
04
0045
01 Q Did you make any attempt to verify whether the
02 blood, what you thought was blood on the Bronco, was
03 indeed blood?
04 A Yes. After I was shown the area and come to
05 the conclusion that it looked like blood to me, I
06 requested a criminalist to respond to my location,
07 knowing that regardless of what I had there, whether I
08 had another scene, someone injured or whatever, there
09 was going to have to be collection of evidence. So I
10 requested a criminalist respond to my location.
11 Q And to confirm or refute what you thought was
12 blood?
13 A Exactly, yes.
14 Q So at that point, what did you decide to do?
15 A Go over the wall.
16 Q Did you go over the wall?
17 A No. No. I asked detective Fuhrman to.
18 He's younger and I believe probably a little more
19 athletic than me, so I asked him to go over the wall.
20 Q And he did?
21 A Yes.
22 Q What happened next?
23 A He opened the gate by releasing a hinge, and
24 we walked to the front door of the residence, knocked on
25 the door several times, got no response.
26 Q After knocking several times and getting no
27 response, what did you do next?
28 A Again, I still had the concern that there
0046
01 could be -- that this could be a second crime scene, a
02 second murder scene. So we began checking the property
03 to insure that no one was hurt, injured or not a second
04 scene there.
05 So we moved from the front door area around
06 the north side of the residence to check the area to
07 make sure no one was down or whatever, and moved to the
08 back of the residence.
09 MS. CLARK: For the record, the witness was
10 pointing to the path indicated by two parallel lines
11 curved through what appears to be an indication of
12 foliage on the illustration, on the Ashford side of the
13 residence.
14 BY MS. CLARK:
15 Q And did you go -- where did you go when you
16 went up through that Ashford side of the residence?
17 A I was actually behind, my partner and
18 detective Phillips were in front, and as I walked
19 through, I noticed a pool area, a tennis court area
20 behind, and I was looking -- actually, I was looking to
21 see if I could see anything on the grounds as I'm going
22 back.
23 Q What do you mean by "anything"?
24 A Any persons down, anybody hurt, anything. I
25 didn't really know at that point what I had or what I
26 was looking for.
27 Q Did you -- so you were just walking back there
28 and scanning the area?
0047
01 A Yes. As I walked back on the walkway.
02 Q Was it lit back there?
03 A No.
04 Q What was the lighting like?
05 A No, no, it was dark.
06 Q Where did you go?
07 A I followed detective Phillips and my partner,
08 Detective Lange, to a guest house area which is at the
09 rear location on the south side of the property.
10 Q Do you see that indicated on the defendant's
11 exhibit?
12 A Yes, I do.
13 Q Can you point it out for us.
14 A Yes. I crossed along the back of the
15 residence, between the pool and the home, into this
16 area.
17 MS. CLARK: Shall I hold it up, Your Honor, so you
18 can see?
19 THE COURT: That's all right. If I stand up, I
20 can see.
21 BY MS. CLARK:
22 Q Can you point that out for the court, please?
23 A Yes. We came down the walkway, around the
24 back of the residence, observed this area and walked
25 over here and started to knock on the doorway.
26 Q And is that the area on the diagram marked
27 "Kato's room"?
28 A That's correct, yes.
0048
01 Q Were you standing at the door of Kato's room
02 when someone knocked?
03 A I was standing back. I was up -- there's, I
04 believe, three steps that go down to a walkway to the
05 door. I was standing up at the top of the steps when
06 detective Phillips knocked on the door.
07 Q What happened next?
08 A The door was answered fairly quickly by -- it
09 turned out to be Brian Kaelin.
10 Detective Phillips asked him if there was
11 anybody else on the property, and he said yes, Arnelle
12 Simpson was in the room next door, which would be the
13 room which would be directly south of where he was at.
14 Q On the defense diagram?
15 A Yes.
16 Q And is that marked as "Arnelle's room" on the
17 diagram?
18 A That's correct.
19 Q Prior to doing so, did he or you or anyone in
20 your presence inform Kato that -- what was going on,
21 what had transpired?
22 A No one did in my presence, no.
23 Q Do you know what, if anything, they gave him
24 as a reason for needing to contact someone who could
25 gain access to the main house?
26 A You know, I didn't talk to him at that time.
27 I don't really know.
28 Q You don't know what the conversation was with
0049
01 him.
02 A No.
03 Q After he -- after this Kato directed you to
04 Arnelle's room, what did you do?
05 A I followed my partner. My partner knocked on
06 the door, and it was fairly quickly opened by Arnelle
07 Simpson.
08 Q So you did not remain with Kato.
09 A No.
10 Q Did anyone?
11 A Detective Fuhrman, I believe, remained with
12 Kato at that point.
13 Q When you went to Arnelle's room, what
14 happened?
15 A She answered the door, and I believe detective
16 Phillips had come up. And detective Phillips told her
17 that we needed to get in touch with her father, did she
18 know where he was at, and she responded -- she answered
19 the question with another question. She pointed toward
20 the house and said, "isn't he here?"
21 Q Indicating the house when she said "here."
22 A Yes.
23 And I asked her, "well, is he? I don't know.
24 Is he here?"
25 And she looked sort of quizzical and she says
26 at that point -- either -- I believe myself, I asked
27 her, "do you have a key? Can we check to see if your
28 father is here? We need to get in touch with him."
0050
01 And she said, "yes, I have a key," and she
02 took us into the house.
03 Q Did you or anyone in your presence inform her
04 of why you were there in these early morning hours
05 asking about her father?
06 A I believe she was informed as we walked toward
07 the house by my partner that we were investigating a
08 double homicide that involved Nicole Brown.
09 Q Was there any indication given to her at her
10 door, at her door of the guest unit, that there was
11 something going on, an emergency?
12 A Yeah. That it was an emergency, that we
13 needed to contact her father.
14 Q So she opened the door with a key?
15 A Yes.
16 Q And invited you in?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Once you got in the house, what did you do?
19 A I immediately asked her -- knowing that there
20 was supposed to be a maid there, I asked her, "where is
21 the maid's quarters? Isn't there supposed to be a maid
22 here?"
23 And she took me through the back of the house
24 into the kitchen to an area off the utility room that
25 would be on the south side of the kitchen.
26 Q Why did you ask her to do that, take you to
27 see the maid?
28 A Because I was worried. I didn't know what
0051
01 was going on. I didn't know whether the maid was
02 there, whether she was injured, whether she'd been
03 murdered or what. I needed to find out.
04 Q So she took -- Arnelle took you to the maid's
05 bedroom?
06 A She took me to the room, opened the door and
07 you could look in and see that there was no one there.
08 Q Did you see any -- did you look to see whether
09 there was any signs of struggle or violence that
10 occurred in there?
11 A There didn't appear to be in that area of the
12 house, no.
13 Q Now, why was it that you asked to go into the
14 house to check on the whereabouts of the defendant?
15 A To try and find out if he was in the house or
16 if the maid was in the house or if anybody was in the
17 house.
18 Q But you received no response when you called
19 the phone and rang the bell on the intercom.
20 Didn't that tell you that he certainly was not
21 at home and the maid was not at home?
22 A No, no, not at all.
23 Going back, again, we had knowledge that
24 Westec had no prior knowledge that there was any travel
25 plans. We had knowledge that there was supposed to be
26 a live-in maid.
27 We had just come from a very violent murder
28 scene. We see what we believe to be blood. We could
0052
01 have had a second murder scene there or we could have
02 had someone injured there. We needed to check that.
03 Q So you were inside the house with Arnelle
04 after seeing the maid's room.
05 What did you do next?
06 A She came back into the kitchen area where my
07 partner and detective Phillips was and there was -- this
08 is all happening very quickly.
09 She -- I believe she told detective Phillips
10 that she could find out her father's location by calling
11 his office. They would always know where he was at.
12 And she placed a phone call.
13 Q Now, while she was placing that phone call,
14 where were you?
15 A I had moved back toward the back of the
16 house. I was intending on going out to look around the
17 grounds.
18 Q What for?
19 A To see if there was anybody hurt or injured
20 there.
21 Q Where were the other detectives?
22 A Detective Lange was with detective Phillips,
23 and detective Fuhrman was -- I still -- I believe still
24 in the back with Brian Kato.
25 Q Now, you say Detective Lange and detective
26 Phillips.
27 Where were they?
28 A They were in the kitchen area with Arnelle
0053
01 Simpson.
02 Q With Arnelle.
03 Did you search the house?
04 A I briefly looked as I moved back toward the
05 back. I didn't see anything unusual in that portion of
06 the house.
07 And shortly thereafter, detective Fuhrman came
08 to me and says, "hey, you've got to talk to" -- he was
09 calling him Kato, Brian Kaelin. "Listen to what he has
10 to say."
11 Q When I say did you search the house, did you
12 go upstairs, look around?
13 A No, no.
14 Q Did you go into the den area or the living
15 room areas or the dining room areas?
16 A I could see the majority of the downstairs of
17 the house from where I was at.
18 Q Did you go look under cushions or in cabinets
19 or --
20 A No.
21 Q -- Linen closets?
22 A No.
23 Q As you -- so the nature of your search --
24 quote, unquote -- was that you walked to the back of the
25 house and looked around to make sure you saw no one.
26 A Exactly. I was looking for people, not other
27 things.
28 Q People, not evidence.
0054
01 A Yeah.
02 Q Were you present in the house while Arnelle
03 made the phone call to try and locate her father?
04 A I believe at that point when she was making
05 the phone call is when I started walking toward the back
06 and was shortly thereafter approached by detective
07 Fuhrman who directed me to sit down at the bar area and
08 talk to Kato.
09 Q And did you do that?
10 A Yes, I did.
11 Q What did Kato tell you?
12 A Well, prior to that, detective Fuhrman had
13 told me that Kato had told him that he'd heard a very
14 loud noise on the south side of his room, and that he
15 was going to go back there and check and see if
16 everything was okay. And he told me, "ask him, or have
17 him tell you about this noise that he heard."
18 And I sat down there and talked with him, and
19 he told me that evening he had heard a very loud
20 thumping noise outside, that he had thought it was an
21 earthquake, and it had actually moved a picture on the
22 wall of his room.
23 Q Having heard that, what did you think?
24 A Well, again, I had the same suspicion. It's
25 very unusual to hear loud thumping noises outside your
26 bedroom.
27 I thought possibly somebody was hurt or
28 somebody was down out there, and that's why detective
0055
01 Fuhrman was going to that location to check.
02 Q At that point when you sat down and talked to
03 Kato, had contact, to your knowledge, yet been made with
04 the defendant?
05 A I believe it was being made at that point.
06 Q Were you privy to that conversation?
07 A No, I was not.
08 Q And when I say "that conversation," I mean
09 between the detectives and the defendant.
10 A No, I was not.
11 Q At the point that you spoke to Kato, what were
12 your concerns?
13 A My concerns that -- again, knowing all the
14 information I knew, my concern was that someone was
15 hurt, someone had been killed, someone had been injured
16 at that location.
17 Q After receiving that information from Kato,
18 what happened next?
19 A Well, while I talked with Kato in the bar
20 area, which is to the rear of the house -- there was a
21 bar area set up -- within probably 10 to 15 minutes,
22 detective Fuhrman came to me and said, "you've got to
23 come with me and see this," and he led me to the south
24 side of the house.
25 Q Detective Fuhrman did that?
26 A Yes.
27 Q Do you know whether before he took you outside
28 you saw him leave the house with anyone else?
0056
01 A Detective Fuhrman?
02 Q Yes.
03 A The last time I saw detective Fuhrman he was
04 by himself.
05 Q Then you were not privy to his movements, I
06 take it?
07 A No.
08 Q Okay.
09 Where did he take you?
10 A Do you want me to show you with the pointer?
11 Q Sure. On the defense diagram?
12 A Yes.
13 He took me from the back area of the house,
14 around the north side, crossed the front and into a
15 small walkway on the south side of the residence, which
16 would be the common wall that connects the main
17 residence with the guest house residence on the south
18 side -- on the south side here.
19 Q He didn't take you out the front door?
20 A You know, I believe you're right. I believe
21 he did take me through the house and out the front door,
22 now that I think about it.
23 There was a lot of movement going on, but I
24 think you're right. I think we walked from the back
25 through the front door and then came around.
26 MR. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, I'm going to object to
27 the form of the question. It clearly obviously was
28 leading and suggestive.
0057
01 The officer now is saying, "yes, you're
02 right." He's referring to the leading and suggestive
03 nature. It's totally improper, should not have been
04 asked, and the answer should be stricken.
05 THE COURT: Overruled.
06 MS. CLARK: Your Honor, I think a simple --
07 THE COURT: Overruled, Ms. Clark.
08 MS. CLARK: All right.
09 THE COURT: We are going to take the morning break
10 at this time -- it is a little after 10:15 -- for 15
11 minutes.
12 I remind you, please do not discuss your
13 testimony with anyone.
14 And we'll continue in 15 minutes.
15
16
17 (At 10:17 a.m., a recess was taken until 10:38 a.m.)
18
19
20 THE COURT: All right. We're once again on the
21 record in the case of People versus Simpson.
22 The defendant is present with counsel.
23 The people are represented.
24 Detective Vannatter is on the witness stand.
25 I remind you, you are still under oath.
26 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor.
27 THE COURT: Ms. Clark?
28 MS. CLARK: Yes. May I interrupt very briefly.
0058
01 I just received the curriculum vitae on the
02 expert witness we are going to be calling on the blood
03 work, Greg Matheson, and I am handing it to defense
04 counsel right now.
05
06 Philip Vannatter,
07 called as a witness by and on behalf of the People,
08 having been previously called and duly sworn, resumed
09 the stand and testified further as follows:
10
11 DIRECT EXAMINATION (continued)
12
13 BY MS. CLARK:
14 Q Detective Vannatter, you indicated you went to
15 the south side of the property with detective Fuhrman
16 and you indicated on the diagram.
17 A Yes.
18 Q And what did you find there?
19 A Detective Fuhrman pointed out a man's leather
20 glove to me.
21 Q Showing you the exhibit that's marked as
22 People's 9 for identification, can you tell me if you
23 recognize what's being shown in these photographs?
24 A Yes, I recognize that.
25 Q What?
26 A That's the walkway along the south side of the
27 residence that has a chain link fence as a property
28 boundary, and the 'C', 'D', and 'E' represent the glove
0059
01 that was lying on the walkway.
02 Q And does that represent -- do those pictures
03 in 'C' and 'D' depict the original condition in which
04 that glove was found?
05 A Yes.
06 Q And location?
07 A Yes.
08 Q Was that glove significant to you?
09 A Yes, it was.
10 Q Why?
11 A It appeared -- it was a right-handed
12 leather -- brown leather glove that appeared to be a
13 match of the left-handed glove that I had seen at the
14 original crime scene.
15 Q Now, after you saw that glove -- excuse me,
16 strike that.
17 You were with detective Fuhrman when you saw
18 that glove, is that what you said?
19 A Yes, he took me back there.
20 Q Did you walk back out with him?
21 A I believe I did. He went to get, I believe,
22 detective Lange or detective Phillips, also to show it
23 to them.
24 Q So he took each of you back there to show the
25 glove?
26 A Yes.
27 Q Now by the time you saw the glove, sir --
28 well, let me ask you this.
0060
01 Can you point out the route you took back
02 after you saw the glove?
03 A After I saw the glove?
04 Q Right. After you saw the glove, where did
05 you go?
06 A Yes. I came from the location back in here,
07 I came back into the front and onto the driveway. Out
08 in here (indicating).
09 Q When you arrived at the location of 360
10 Rockingham, can you describe what the lighting
11 conditions were? In the sky, I mean, not the house.
12 A When I first arrived there?
13 Q Yes.
14 A It was dark.
15 Q By the time you had seen the glove and come
16 back onto the driveway, what was the lighting like?
17 A It was pretty light by then. It had began
18 to -- dawn had broken. It was light.
19 Q In that growing light, were you able to make
20 any further observations?
21 A Yes.
22 Q What did you see?
23 A I saw originally a blood -- what appeared to
24 be a blood droplet in the driveway. And I walked west
25 in the driveway and observed several others that
26 appeared to be leading from the area of where the car
27 was parked.
28 Q And by "the car," you mean --
0061
01 A The Ford Bronco.
02 Q And the blood drops, where did they appear to
03 be leading from the Ford Bronco?
04 A To the front door of the residence.
05 Q Showing you what's been marked as People's 8,
06 do you recognize what's being shown in this
07 photograph -- these photographs, excuse me.
08 A Yes, I do.
09 Q I'm directing your attention specifically now
10 to 'D', 'E' and 'F'.
11 A Yes.
12 Q What's being shown there?
13 A Those are droplets of a red stain, ultimately
14 determined to be blood, that were found in the driveway
15 of the Simpson home.
16 Q Showing you also a series of photographs that
17 have been marked as People's 6, do you recognize what's
18 being shown in these photographs?
19 A Yes, I do.
20 Q I'm directing specifically your attention,
21 sir, to photographs 'D', 'E' and 'F'.
22 A Yes.
23 Q What's being shown there?
24 A That shows the driveway leading from
25 Rockingham Avenue to the front door of the residence.
26 Q And do you see little -- let me hold this for
27 the court.
28 MS. CLARK: It might help you to see, Your Honor.
0062
01 THE COURT: Thank you.
02 BY MS. CLARK:
03 Q In 'D', 'E' and 'F' I see little -- what
04 appear to be little pieces of paper.
05 A Um-hum, yes.
06 Q What are those?
07 A Those are identification numbers that are
08 completed and placed there by the criminalist at my
09 direction to photograph and show the location of the
10 blood droplets.
11 Q So those tags Mark where blood droplets were
12 found?
13 A That's correct, yes.
14 Q If you know, sir, what time was it when you
15 made the observation of those blood droplets in the
16 driveway after you'd just seen the glove?
17 A I -- again, I would have to estimate that. I
18 believe it was around 6:45 or so in the morning.
19 Q Now, backing up for a moment, at the time just
20 prior to the glove being found, what was -- what were
21 you trying to do? What was your state of mind with
22 respect to what you were doing there at 360 Rockingham
23 just before the glove was found?
24 A We were there to insure that all the occupants
25 were safe, that a notification was made of the death of
26 Nicole Brown, and that a disposition was made for the
27 children that we had.
28 Q And to that end, I think you indicated before
0063
01 you were trying to locate the defendant?
02 A Yes.
03 Q What steps did you take to locate the
04 defendant while you were inside the residence?
05 A I looked around the bottom area of the home.
06 And at that time telephone calls were being made, and
07 during that period of time I was informed that -- I
08 believe by my partner -- that Mr. Simpson had been
09 located in Chicago.
10 Q Now, when that was going on, what were you
11 doing?
12 A I was between the kitchen area and the bar
13 area with Kato.
14 Q So this was a kind of -- all these events were
15 kind of happening at once?
16 A Yes. We were actually spread out. We were
17 not all together all the time. And all these things
18 are happening all at the same time. They were not a
19 sequence of events but a conglomeration of events that
20 was occurring.
21 Q So while you were doing one thing, the other
22 detectives were doing other things, and you were kind of
23 all working at the same time?
24 A Exactly.
25 Q After you saw the glove and on your way back
26 saw the blood drops, then what was your state of mind
27 with respect to what you had to do there at 360
28 Rockingham?
0064
01 A My -- knowing at that point that Mr. Simpson
02 was in Chicago, failing to find any evidence of any
03 forced entry or anybody injured or hurt at the location,
04 I then changed -- I began to feel that I had a scene
05 there that was connected to the crime scene at 875 south
06 Bundy.
07 Q And in that regard, what did you do?
08 A I instructed detective Fuhrman and other
09 personnel at the scene there that this was now a
10 protected scene, that it needed to be protected for
11 investigation, and that I was going to secure a search
12 warrant for the residence.
13 Q Now, had the criminalist arrived yet?
14 A No.
15 Q So you had already secured the location for
16 the purpose of securing a search warrant before the
17 criminalist got there.
18 A Yes. I did not leave the location at that
19 point. I waited for the arrival of the chemist (sic)
20 for a couple of reasons.
21 I wanted to be sure that what I was seeing was
22 blood, and I wanted to be sure that the evidence was
23 protected, and in the Los Angeles Police Department at
24 murder scenes or crime scenes, criminalists collect and
25 protect the evidence.
26 Q And that glove that you saw on the south side
27 of the property that you've earlier identified in the
28 photographs, were you concerned about loss of evidence
0065
01 on that glove?
02 A Oh, definitely. The glove was in the
03 elements, was outside. There could possibly be trace
04 evidence on it, fiber, hair, what have you.
05 Also, there was an animal, a dog, running
06 loose on the residence lawn. And I wanted to make sure
07 that it was protected before I left that scene.
08 Q Now, before -- excuse me, strike that.
09 While all this was going on, do you know where
10 Arnelle was?
11 A I believe she was in the house.
12 Q Was there still some effort being made at that
13 time, if you know, to help the children be placed
14 somewhere?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Did the children ever arrive at the residence?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Do you recall when?
19 A I believe it would have been prior to 7:30,
20 because that's when I asked for the place to be
21 secured. Totally secured.
22 Q When you say "totally secured," then what do
23 you mean by that?
24 A I asked Arnelle and a friend of her's, Al
25 Cowlings, that she had called to help her pick up the
26 children, if there was a place that they could go away
27 from the residence to eliminate any possible
28 contamination of any evidence that may be in the house,
0066
01 and they said yes.
02 And at that point I asked them if they would
03 mind doing that, and they said no.
04 Q Do you know when -- so did -- strike that.
05 Do you know if Mr. Cowlings came and brought
06 the children with him to 360 Rockingham?
07 A No. I believe the sequence of events on that
08 is, I believe a phone call was made to Mr. Cowlings
09 after notification had been made to Mr. Simpson, who
10 instructed, I believe my partner, to release the
11 children to his daughter Arnelle Simpson.
12 I believe she called Mr. Cowlings and he
13 responded and took her to West L.A. to pick up the
14 children.
15 Q What time did you leave the residence to
16 secure -- to obtain a search warrant, sir?
17 A Approximately 7:30.
18 Q At what point did you secure the house for the
19 purpose of obtaining that search warrant?
20 A Just prior to that I asked them to leave,
21 asked them if they had a place to go to.
22 I had the evidence protected earlier than that
23 outside. In fact, I believe the criminalist arrived
24 there shortly after 7:00 o'clock, and I showed him the
25 physical evidence outside and left him instructions that
26 it was to be protected, marked and photographed. And
27 that the fact that there was a dog running loose on the
28 compound, so to be very careful to protect the evidence.
0067
01 Q So let me ask you this.
02 What was the time frame between seeing the
03 glove and the blood drops in the driveway also and then
04 securing the house for a search warrant?
05 A It was not a long time. I would say no more
06 than 30 minutes total.
07 Q Could be less?
08 A It could be, yes.
09 Q Were you looking at your watch to time every
10 event that occurred?
11 A No.
12 Q So are the times you're giving us estimates?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Okay. To the best of your knowledge, sir,
15 when you secured the house -- when you made the
16 determination to secure the house, was A.C. Cowlings
17 already there or did he come up later? If you know.
18 A He was there because I spoke with him.
19 Q Do you recall seeing any children in the house
20 before you -- before you decided to secure the house for
21 a search warrant?
22 A No. I recall seeing the children leave, but
23 I didn't see them prior, I don't think.
24 Q You saw them leave from where?
25 A From the home there.
26 Q Oh, you did.
27 You mean from 360 Rockingham?
28 A Yes, that's correct.
0068
01 Q Who was taking them out?
02 A A.C. Cowlings, or Al Cowlings and Arnelle
03 Simpson.
04 Q But you didn't see how they got to the home.
05 A No.
06 Q And that's when they were leaving pursuant to
07 your request so that you could secure the house for the
08 search warrant?
09 A Yes, that's correct.
10 MS. CLARK: I have nothing further.
11 THE COURT: Mr. Shapiro.
12 MR. SHAPIRO: Thank you very much, Your Honor.
13
14 CROSS-EXAMINATION
15
16 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
17 Q Good afternoon, Detective Vannatter -- or good
18 morning. Good mid morning. We haven't taken our
19 afternoon break.
20 A Good morning, Mr. Shapiro.
21 Q Detective Vannatter, with your experience as a
22 Los Angeles police officer, are you one of the more
23 senior detectives in your unit?
24 A Yeah, I believe only my partner has more time
25 than I do in our unit, yes.
26 Q So between the two of you, you are the two
27 most senior ranking people in homicide in the
28 Los Angeles Police Department; isn't that correct?
0069
01 A No. In our unit.
02 Q As far as detectives in your homicide unit.
03 A Yes, in our 12-man unit, yes.
04 Q And your unit is the special unit?
05 A It's named homicide special section, yes.
06 Q And it's special because you investigate
07 special situations?
08 A We investigate certain type cases, yes.
09 Q That are somehow defined as special?
10 A Well, that's not always the case,
11 Mr. Shapiro. A lot of times we handle any type of
12 case. If there's an overload at one of the areas and
13 they need help, we go pick up their cases too. So
14 that's not totally true.
15 Q All right. But in general you told us if
16 there is a serial murder, that would come to your
17 special unit.
18 A Yes.
19 Q And if there was a high profile person who was
20 involved in a murder, that would come to your unit.
21 A Most likely, yes.
22 Q And if there were murders of prominent
23 political people, that would come to your unit.
24 A Yes, most likely.
25 Q What other types of things would come to your
26 unit that would be categorized as special, not overflow?
27 A Very, very involved cases that the homicide
28 detectives at the divisional level don't have the proper
0070
01 time or manpower to investigate those type cases.
02 Q So you get resources and time above and beyond
03 what detectives in the substations get.
04 A I don't know that we -- I don't believe
05 that -- half of that statement is probably true. We
06 probably have more time than the average detective. I
07 don't believe we have any more resources than anybody on
08 the department would have.
09 Q All right.
10 Let's for a minute focus on the resources that
11 you have out of your unit.
12 A Okay.
13 Q You were familiar with the time Mr. Simpson
14 surrendered with Mr. Cowlings to the Los Angeles Police
15 Department on Friday, were you not?
16 A Yes, I was.
17 Q And --
18 A When he surrendered?
19 Q Well, he came back to the Rockingham house,
20 did he not?
21 A I'm familiar when he was taken into custody,
22 that's correct.
23 Q And when he was taken into custody, did he in
24 fact surrender to the police?
25 A Well, I don't know. I wasn't at the scene.
26 I know he was taken into custody, though.
27 Q Are you aware of what took place at the scene?
28 A I believe, yes.
0071
01 Q And at the scene, how many members of the
02 Los Angeles Police Department were there?
03 A I don't know, Mr. Shapiro.
04 Q What would be your estimate?
05 A There were quite a few. I don't know.
06 Q More than 10?
07 A Oh, I would say so, yes.
08 Q More than 20?
09 A I don't know. I don't honestly know.
10 Q As the senior ranking detective in charge of
11 this case, you oversee all aspects of this case, do you
12 not?
13 A We have a hand in all aspects of it.
14 However, that situation that you're talking about there
15 is a tactical field situation that is handled by field
16 supervisors, not by detectives. That would have been
17 handled by someone else.
18 Q Let me just ask you generally, in terms of
19 your observations and in terms of your knowledge as to
20 how the police department works.
21 If it was reported that there were in excess
22 of 100 police officers there, would you say that would
23 be a fair reporting?
24 MS. CLARK: I'm going to object to the relevancy of
25 this line of questioning.
26 THE COURT: Sustained.
27 MR. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, may I just be heard on
28 that?
0072
01 THE COURT: All right.
02 MR. SHAPIRO: This is very, very important
03 foundationally to show resources that are available in
04 emergency -- an emergency situation, and resources that
05 are available to this detective and resources that were
06 used at the time that he was dealing with the situation
07 on Rockingham.
08 MS. CLARK: Same objection, Your Honor.
09 THE COURT: The objection is sustained,
10 Mr. Shapiro, as to the number of officers that were
11 present at the Friday night incident.
12 MR. SHAPIRO: Thank you.
13 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
14 Q I take it that you have special training to
15 have the classification of being a special unit
16 detective?
17 A No, I -- no, I don't think that's necessarily
18 true. I think that's based on a person's work history
19 and experience.
20 Q What about special abilities?
21 A I would not be the one to ask that question,
22 if I have special abilities.
23 Q Well, I don't want you to be modest.
24 A I take a lot of pride in my job, Mr. Shapiro,
25 yes.
26 Q And you wouldn't be in that important position
27 if you didn't have the credentials, the experience, the
28 knowledge and the background to have such an important
0073
01 detective job, would you?
02 A That's probably true, yes.
03 Q And as such, you are familiar, are you not,
04 with the procedures that are mandated by the Los Angeles
05 Police Department for investigative techniques in
06 homicide cases, are you not?
07 A Yes.
08 Q Are you familiar with a Los Angeles Police
09 Department chronological record form 3.11.6?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And is that something that is used to record
12 in-depth the chronological record of the investigation
13 in a homicide case?
14
15 \ \
16
17
0074
01 Q And is that something that is used to report in
02 depth the chronological record of the investigation in a
03 homicide case?
04 A the chronological record is a record that is
05 used as time permits to make a chronological entry on a
06 log as to activities that have taken place in that
07 investigation.
08 Q And doesn't that form require the reporting of
09 the dates and times of the initial notification and of all
10 investigative contacts and processes?
11 A It would be impossible to list all investigative
12 dates and processes.
13 Q My question is --
14 A the majority --
15 Q -- Isn't that what the manual you are trained
16 under and the policy requires.
17 A Again, it may state that; however, that record is
18 used as time permits in an investigation to record
19 functions and activities that have occurred in that
20 investigation.
21 Q My question is does it state that.
22 A I don't know the exact WORDING.
23 Q Do you have form 3.11.16 that you used in this
24 case?
25 A I believe my partners kept a chronological record
26 on just regular paper. I don't think we have a
27 chronological record in the case.
28 Q Would you take a moment to review your materials
0075
01 and see if you have such a record.
02 A I think I just answered that. I believe my
03 partner kept a chronological record on regular white paper
04 instead of using the form because the form wasn't available
05 when we first started the case; We didn't have it in our
06 possession.
07 Q You say you think.
08 Would it help you to refresh your memory --
09 A I know he has, Mr. Shapiro.
10 Q You know you don't have this?
11 A Yes.
12 Q So the chronological record was kept by your
13 partner on a piece of blank paper?
14 A Yes.
15 MS. CLARK: Again, objection. irrelevant. What does
16 this have to do with a motion to suppress?
17 The COURT: I assume we are heading in that
18 direction.
19 MR. SHAPIRO: Yes, we are, your Honor.
20 the COURT: Do you want to make an offer of proof as
21 to this chronological record as it relates to this motion?
22 MR. SHAPIRO: Yes.
23 We will show improper procedures were followed
24 from the very beginning of this investigation until the
25 time that detective Vannatter has testified; that proper
26 forms and procedures as outlined by the Los Angeles police
27 department have not been followed; that times, dates and
28 records of events that should be recorded are not
0076
01 recorded. And, quite frankly, your Honor, this will go to
02 the credibility of detective Vannatter and his testimony
03 here today.
04 MS. CLARK: May I be heard, your Honor?
05 The COURT: Yes.
06 MS. CLARK: I fail to see how the use of a particular
07 form or the use of a blank page in lieu of that form have
08 anything to do with the propriety of the officers' conduct
09 in searching the residence at 360 Rockingham. I'm sorry,
10 your Honor. I just don't see the connection.
11 The officers used what they could at the time
12 that they could under a pressing need and an urgent
13 situation. the issue is was the information required to be
14 recorded on the chronological record recorded in some
15 manner, not whether they used a form that was preprinted or
16 not; and I'm sorry, your Honor, but I just can't see the
17 relevance of this line of questioning to whether or not
18 proper procedures were followed with respect to the
19 decision to go over the wall and do a cursory search of the
20 grounds.
21 the COURT: With reference to the utilization of
22 specific LAPD forms or procedures that don't present
23 constitutional issues, i really don't see the relevance of
24 whether every "I" was dotted and every "T" was crossed;
25 However, with regard to whether there is impeaching
26 information within or missing from some of these records,
27 there could indeed be some relevance.
28 I am just, I guess, going to have to hear on a
0077
01 question by question -- you make the appropriate
02 objections, and I will make the appropriate rulings.
03 MS. CLARK: Thank you, your Honor.
04 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
05 Q Have you reviewed a chronological record that was
06 done by your partner?
07 A No.
08 Q Would you take a moment, please. Please look at
09 that, please.
10 A Certainly.
11 Q Do you have one available?
12 A No. My partner has the books in the hallway.
13 Q Maybe the district attorney --
14 A If we could get them from him.
15 Q Or maybe the district attorney might have a copy
16 here.
17 A That is a possibility.
18 Q Detective Vannatter, are you familiar with
19 something known as a homicide book or, in the vernacular, a
20 murder book?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And is that something that is routinely prepared
23 by the Los Angeles police department?
24 A Yes.
25 Q And, as part of that murder book, the
26 chronological record?
27 A Yes.
28 Q Do you know where to find the chronological
0078
01 record in the murder book?
02 A Yes; in section 1.
03 Q Would you look for that, please.
04 A Okay.
05 Q Have you located the chronological record?
06 A Yes, I sure have.
07 Q How many pages does it consist of?
08 A Seven to date.
09 Q Seven to date?
10 A Yeah.
11 Six and three-quarters to date.
12 Q And by policy, there is to be a chronological
13 record for each crime scene; is that correct?
14 A No. there's normally one chronological record
15 kept for the case.
16 Q For the case?
17 A Yes.
18 Q So that would include the crime scene at Bundy?
19 A Yes.
20 Q What you later found to be the crime scene at
21 Rockingham?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And the crime scene in chicago?
24 A Well, that was a separate investigation. We were
25 not privy to what was going on in chicago.
26 Q You didn't have any detectives there?
27 A We did, but we were not personally involved in
28 that. We had no information at that time what was going
0079
01 on.
02 Q When you say you were not privy to it, the
03 chicago police department didn't tell the LAPD what was
04 going on in chicago?
05 A No.
06 You are asking a question -- may I explain the
07 question?
08 Q No. You can answer my question.
09 MS. CLARK: Objection, your Honor. the witness
10 should be allowed to explain his answer, especially
11 because he is being questioned as an expert in his
12 field.
13 the COURT: I think he is trying to give an answer,
14 But I don't think you are going to try to explain
15 Mr. Shapiro's question.
16 THE WITNESS: No. I am going to try to explain the
17 answer to his question.
18 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
19 Q That we would like.
20 A We have a 2,000-mile separation. We have
21 detectives with instructions to go to chicago and complete
22 an investigation. While my partner and myself are working
23 here in los angeles, we do not have a constant
24 communication with the detectives back there; So I would
25 say I was not fully aware of everything that was going on
26 back there.
27 Q Would you say that this is under your
28 jurisdiction as part of your investigation, or is this not
0080
01 part of your investigation?
02 A It is part of the overall investigation of this
03 homicide, yes.
04 Q And proper procedure for the Los Angeles police
05 department to require a chronological record for that
06 investigation? Yes or no?
07 A Yes.
08 Q Is there a chronological record for that
09 investigation, or is that included in the seven pages?
10 A No. I believe there is a separate record kept
11 with the other investigation.
12 Q OKAY.
13 And have you seen that?
14 A No.
15 Q Would you look for that, please.
16 A I don't have those books. All I have is the
17 investigation that has been going on in Los Angeles
18 here.
19 Q You just said it would be proper for the
20 Los Angeles police department to have a chronological
21 record.
22 My question is is there such a record. And if
23 there is, would you show it to us, please.
24 MS. CLARK: Again, I am going to object. This is form
25 over substance. We are still talking about whether forms
26 were used and certain forms were filled out and who is
27 keeping them. This has nothing to do with urgent
28 conditions and whether to go over a wall or not go over a
0081
01 wall.
02 MR. SHAPIRO: May I be heard?
03 The COURT: Let me state one thing, Mr. Shapiro.
04 I recall at least at some point during this
05 proceeding a large envelope being handed to you by
06 Miss Clark and a statement by Miss Clark, "this relates to
07 chicago." I don't recall exactly when that was, but it was
08 during the course of this. And if there are discovery
09 issues to take up, I am willing to do it if it is
10 necessary; But I don't think it is necessary to do it in
11 the course of this particular motion.
12 MR. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, may I be heard briefly?
13 The COURT: Yes.
14 MR. SHAPIRO: This is not a discovery proceeding,
15 clearly. This is a proceeding to determine the truth of
16 the testimony from the witness stand. What we want to
17 establish is -- if there was a chronological record done,
18 perhaps we haven't seen it; We would like to see it.
19 If all they have is the seven pages, we would
20 like to establish that because we believe through
21 impeachment we will show that the testimony given from the
22 witness stand is not true.
23 the COURT: Well, Mr. Shapiro, the total chicago
24 chronology, whether it exists or doesn't exist, I just
25 don't see it is relevant to this particular proceeding.
26 MR. SHAPIRO: Thank you, your Honor.
27 Q Detective, regarding the seven-page chronology
28 you have, that should, according to your policy, include
0082
01 the dates and times of all investigative contacts and
02 processes; is that correct?
03 A If that's -- if that's physically possible to do,
04 yes.
05 Q So you would expect to find in there what took
06 place when you went to Rockingham; is that correct?
07 A You would expect to find an entry there to
08 indicate we were at Rockingham, yes.
09 Q Could you expect to find an entry as to the time
10 you arrived at Rockingham?
11 A Isn't that noted? I haven't looked. I don't
12 know whether that is noted or not.
13 Q I am just asking if you would expect to find
14 that. Yes or no?
15 A It could be there. It could not been there.
16 Q I know it could or couldn't be there. We all
17 know that. the question is would looking at it, sir --
18 would you close the book, please.
19 A Certainly.
20 Q Would you expect to find it there?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And would you expect to find there notations that
23 this was an emergency situation?
24 A No.
25 Q Would you expect to find there that backup units
26 were called if they were?
27 A Not necessarily.
28 Q Would you expect to find there that paramedics
0083
01 were called?
02 MS. CLARK: Your Honor, again, same objection.
03 This line of questioning is simply not relevant to a
04 decision made under emergency conditions as to whether
05 or not to go over a wall.
06 the COURT: the objection to this particular question
07 is overruled.
08 the WITNESS: Would you expect to find notations
09 that a paramedic unit was called?
10 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
11 Q Yes.
12 A Probably not. You would probably find that
13 under a section of the book that relates to ambulance
14 information.
15 Q Would you expect to find notations that you
16 notified communications that you were at another location?
17 A Not necessarily.
18 Q I am asking would you expect to find that.
19 A Not necessarily.
20 Q You may or you may not?
21 A exactly.
22 Q Are you familiar with a los angeles police
23 department follow-up report?
24 A Yes.
25 Q After you go to a crime scene, if there are
26 additional factors that are not included because of time
27 constraints in the initial report, you do a follow-up
28 report; is that correct?
0084
01 MS. CLARK: Again, your Honor, I am going to object
02 as irrelevant.
03 the COURT: Overruled.
04 the WITNESS: A follow-up is done, in general terms,
05 to attempt to explain what has happened. It is not a
06 detailed description of the entire case.
07 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
08 Q An attempt to explain what has happened.
09 Let me ask you this.
10 Did you file an initial report outlining what you
11 have testified here today in an official -- on an official
12 LAPD form?
13 MS. CLARK: Same objection, your Honor.
14 What does it matter whether it is filed on an
15 official form or whether the information is contained on a
16 blank piece of paper? the issue is what information and
17 what decisions were made and why they were made.
18 This line of questioning is going to minutia as
19 to whether a form was used or whether a blank piece of
20 paper was used. I don't see the relevance.
21 the COURT: is the import of your question whether a
22 specific form was made or whether, in fact, a report was
23 prepared?
24 MR. SHAPIRO: the import is clearly whether a
25 report was made.
26 the COURT: Objection overruled.
27 You may answer the question.
28 the WITNESS: A follow-up report was prepared.
0085
01 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
02 Q Was an initial report prepared?
03 A I don't know what you mean by "an initial
04 report."
05 There was an initial death report and crime
06 report that was filed.
07 Q I am saying an initial report of you and the
08 three other detectives' activities at Rockingham.
09 Did you file an initial report?
10 A No.
11 Q You filed a follow-up report?
12 A Yes.
13 Q How much later did you file the follow-up report?
14 MS. CLARK: Your Honor, objection. Objection.
15 Irrelevant.
16 Whether reports were filed at certain times and
17 what forms were used, how can that be relevant as to
18 whether or not an appropriate decision was made under the
19 circumstances to go over a wall?
20 the COURT: Mr. Shapiro, are you expecting to offer
21 some sort of information from a report that is at odds with
22 the testimony here?
23 MR. SHAPIRO: Yes, your Honor.
24 the COURT: So this is a foundation to that?
25 MR. SHAPIRO: Yes.
26 the COURT: All right.
27 With that understanding, the objection is
28 overruled.
0086
01 by mr. shapiro:
02 Q You did file a follow-up report; is that correct?
03 A My partner did, yes.
04 Q And when was that done?
05 A the date should be on the report. I don't know
06 exactly.
07 Q Have you seen the report?
08 A I have seen it, yes.
09 Q Did you participate in the writing of the report?
10 A No, I did not.
11 Q Did you give any information that was later
12 contained in that report?
13 A I must have. We talk all the time.
14 Q That's the purpose of the report, isn't it --
15 what Vannatter did, what phillips did, what the four
16 detectives did There?
17 One person writes the report; is that correct?
18 A the purpose of the report is an overall view of
19 the investigation.
20 Q Have you read that report for errors and
21 omissions?
22 A I have read the report -- not recently.
23 Q When you read it, did you find any errors or
24 omissions in the report?
25 A None that I recall.
26 Q If there were errors or omissions, as a
27 detective, you would correct those with a supplemental
28 report, would you not?
0087
01 A If there were errors.
02 I don't know what you mean by "omissions."
03 Again, that is just a general, overall report
04 that gives a general outline of the investigation.
05 Q Are you satisfied with the content of the report
06 as far as accuracy and veracity regarding what transpired
07 at Rockingham?
08 A Am I satisfied with it?
09 I don't know what is contained in there regarding
10 what occurred at Rockingham. I am satisfied my partner did
11 a comprehensive report, yes.
12 Q I thought you said you read it.
13 A I did read it; but, again, I haven't read it
14 recently and I don't recall what is in the report.
15 Q Would you take a moment to read it and refresh
16 your memory.
17 A Certainly.
18 Q How long is that report? Do you know?
19 A I don't know.
20 Okay. Yes. I am satisfied with what is in it.
21 Q In the report, in the third paragraph, it says
22 upon arrival that you noticed a bronco and the vehicle was
23 parked at an angle to the curb, with the rear end jutting
24 out into the roadway.
25 A Okay.
26 Q Is that accurate?
27 A Yes. the rear end was sticking out farther than
28 the front end.
0088
01 Q It says "into the roadway."
02 What did you mean or what did your partner mean
03 by that term?
04 A the vehicle was parked on the roadway. Where it
05 was parked was part of the roadway. the rear end was
06 sticking farther out into the roadway than the front.
07 Q How far was the rear sticking out further?
08 A I don't know. I didn't measure it, sir.
09 Q Well, this was an important event for you, was it
10 not?
11 A there were a lot of things occurring at that
12 time.
13 I didn't measure it, Mr. Shapiro. I don't know
14 how far out it was as compared to the front end.
15 Q But this was, you would agree, one of your very
16 key, important observations --
17 A At that point --
18 Q -- That led you to go into the house, was it not?
19 A No. It just appeared that the vehicle was parked
20 unusual, like it had been parked in haste. I wouldn't say
21 that -- that was not the catalyst that caused me to go in.
22 Q if Detective Fuhrman said that was a very
23 important aspect and caused him considerable consternation
24 and led him, as one of the main ingredients, to go into the
25 house, you would say he was wrong?
26 A No.
27 MS. CLARK: Objection. Misstates the testimony.
28 the COURT: Sustained.
0089
01 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
02 Q How long was the car at the scene before it was
03 moved -- the bronco?
04 A I don't know.
05 Q Do you have any records to refresh your memory as
06 to when it was towed?
07 A No, I don't.
08 I might. I don't know. I could look in the book
09 if you would like me to do that.
10 Q Would that be in the chronological log?
11 A No. It would probably be under the "vehicle
12 section" in there. I don't know. I could look and see.
13 Q Would you do that, please.
14 A Certainly.
15 It would indicate on the vehicle report itself
16 that the vehicle was removed at 1530 hours, 3:30 in the
17 afternoon.
18 Q How many hours was it there from the time you
19 made your initial observation until the time it was
20 removed?
21 A Oh, it would have been sometime between 5 and
22 5:30 in the morning until 3:30 in the afternoon.
23 Q Would that give you sufficient time to ask
24 somebody to measure how far the rear of the car was out --
25 A I never did that, sir.
26 Q My question was --
27 A sure. Absolutely. I never did that, though.
28 Q I take it from your experience as a senior
0090
01 detective, when the criminalist came out, you would want
02 him to photograph the car.
03 A Yes.
04 Q And you would want him to photograph the angle of
05 the car?
06 MS. CLARK: Objection.
07 the COURT: Excuse me?
08 MS. CLARK: Objection.
09 The manner in which the investigation was
10 conducted in terms of the collection of the evidence has no
11 bearing on the decision made to go over the wall.
12 Same objection. Irrelevant.
13 the COURT: Overruled.
14 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
15 Q the angle of the car would be something important
16 for you to record with the criminalist?
17 A I had him photograph it. Yes.
18 Q And you had him photograph it from a position
19 where we could later review the angle of the car; is that
20 correct?
21 A I wasn't there when the photographing was done.
22 Q You are in charge of this, aren't you?
23 A Well, I am one of the co-investigators.
24 You are placing more importance on me than I
25 have, Mr. Shapiro. I wish I had that much importance.
26 Q Who is in charge of this investigation?
27 A Who is in charge of this investigation?
28 Q Yeah. Who is in charge?
0091
01 A the Los Angeles police department, where I work.
02 Q So willie Williams is in charge; is that correct?
03 A That would be the ultimate responsibility, yes.
04 Q And out in the field who was in charge?
05 A Myself and my partner.
06 Q And as far as collecting evidence, who is in
07 charge?
08 A We direct the criminalist to do that.
09 Q And you direct the criminalist and photographer
10 to take pictures, don't you?
11 A Exactly.
12 Q Did you direct the criminalist and photographer
13 to take pictures of the Bronco?
14 A I was not there when that was done.
15 Q Did you ask them to do it?
16 A I asked the criminalist to have it photographed,
17 yes.
18 Q Did you tell him why you wanted it photographed?
19 A Yes, I did.
20 Q Or did you just leave it up to the photographer
21 to take some pictures, maybe take a picture of the tire,
22 maybe take a picture of the gas tank?
23 MS. CLARK: Objection. Argumentative.
24 the COURT: Sustained.
25 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
26 Q Isn't it somebody's job to tell someone what type
27 of pictures they should take?
28 A they were told what type of pictures to take.
0092
01 Q By whom?
02 A I told the criminalist.
03 Q And you have -- Thank you.
04 And you have seen photographs of the bronco as
05 they were taken by the criminalist?
06 A Yes.
07 Q And do those accurately depict the position of
08 the car when you arrived?
09 A Yes.
10 Q they are not distorted in any way, are they?
11 MS. CLARK: Objection. Calls for speculation.
12 Let the witness see the pictures counsel is
13 referring to.
14 the COURT: Sustained.
15 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
16 Q Have you seen the pictures?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Are they --
19 a I can see the pictures right here.
20 MS. CLARK: For the record, the witness is referring
21 to photograph "a" of People's --
22 the court: Is that People's 6?
23 MS. CLARK: 6, your Honor.
24 The COURT: I believe so.
25 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
26 Q Have you seen any other photographs of the
27 Bronco --
28 MS. CLARK: 8.
0093
01 the COURT: 8.
02 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
03 Q -- in the position you observed it?
04 A Yes.
05 Q You have seen those?
06 A Yes.
07 Q They properly depict what you observed when you
08 arrived?
09 MS. CLARK: Objection. Vague.
10 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
11 Q Do they properly depict what you observed when
12 you arrived?
13 The COURT: What photographs are you referring to?
14 MR. SHAPIRO: Any photographs.
15 I asked him a Wide-open question: "In the
16 hundreds of photographs that were taken, have you seen any
17 photographs of the bronco at the scene at Rockingham?" He
18 answered the question.
19 Q My question now is are those photographs accurate
20 and do they depict -- any of these photographs depict what
21 you observed when you arrived.
22 MS. CLARK: Again, objection.
23 Counsel is attempting to ascertain, apparently,
24 whether any of the photographs taken depict the angle at
25 which the rear end was jutting out; and unless this witness
26 is permitted to review all the photographs taken at this
27 time, he is not going to be able to give an accurate
28 answer.
0094
01 It is vague as to which photographs he is
02 referring to. there are numerous.
03 the COURT: Mr. Shapiro, I am not sure how many
04 photographs we are referring to. there have been a number
05 of photographs that have been utilized during the course of
06 this proceeding.
07 If you are limiting your question to those that
08 have been marked, that have been shown and that the witness
09 can take a look at, I think that is a fair question; But
10 just asking a question like the one you are asking with
11 regard to photographs when the court doesn't know what you
12 are referring to, I think it is just overbroad.
13 MR. SHAPIRO: the question is whether the witness
14 does, your Honor; And my question to him is a simple one,
15 whether any photographs were taken that accurately depict
16 the vehicle at the time he arrived.
17 MS. CLARK: Well, that was not the question, your
18 Honor.
19 MR. SHAPIRO: That will be a new question.
20 the COURT: Okay.
21 You can answer that, if you are able to.
22 the WITNESS: So I understand the question, were there
23 photographs taken that accurately depict --
24 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
25 Q the position of the bronco at the time you
26 arrived at the scene.
27 A I would have to say yes.
28 Q Thank you.
0095
01 Now, in the murder follow-up report, in paragraph
02 3, it says the following: "peering into the locked
03 vehicle's rear window, detectives observed a package with a
04 label indicating a return address to O.J. Simpson
05 enterprises. A registration check of the vehicle revealed
06 it to belong to hertz rental."
07 is that correct? those would be the observations
08 that were made?
09 A Yes; among a number of other observations.
10 Q Where in this report does it say you or anybody
11 else observed the shovel?
12 A it doesn't.
13 Q Where in this report does it say you or anyone
14 else observed plastic?
15 A It doesn't, but I observed it in the back of the
16 car.
17 Q That wasn't my question.
18 A I answered the question. It doesn't, but I
19 observed it in the car.
20 MR. SHAPIRO: Motion to strike the last part as
21 nonresponsive.
22 the COURT: Sustained as to the last portion.
23 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
24 Q then it says, "upon closer observation of the
25 vehicle, detectives observed what appeared to be human
26 blood near the handle on the driver's door"; is that
27 correct?
28 A If you are reading from the report, yes, that's
0096
01 correct.
02 Q And did you observe human blood?
03 A I observed what I thought was blood. I thought
04 it was human blood.
05 If I can explain that.
06 Q No. My question is did you observe human blood.
07 Yes or no?
08 A What I believed to be human blood, yes.
09 Q You didn't put that in the report that you
10 believed it to be human blood, did you?
11 A I didn't write the report.
12 No. I didn't put it in any report.
13 Q And can you determine the difference between
14 animal blood and human blood?
15 A No; but based on my experience -- and I can
16 explain that very easily if you want me to --
17 Q I don't want you to. Maybe the people might want
18 you to. I want you to answer the questions I ask.
19 MS. CLARK: Your Honor, this is unfair. He is being
20 questioned as an expert. He is entitled to explain his
21 answer.
22 the COURT: He does, though, have to answer the
23 questions that are asked of him, Miss Clark.
24 You will have a chance to question the witness
25 further if you feel some additional explanation is
26 warranted.
27 MS. CLARK: Thank you, your Honor.
28
0097
01 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
02 Q Would you describe the size of the blood you saw.
03 A It was a small spot; a quarter, an eighth of an
04 inch.
05 Q And did you look at it with the naked eye or some
06 type of magnifying glass?
07 A My naked eye.
08 Q Did you use some type of light to illuminate it?
09 A flashlight, yes.
10 Q Do you wear glasses?
11 A I wear reading glasses, yes.
12 Q Did you use your glasses to look at this?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And were you able to distinguish this from any
15 other type of red stain, as being human blood?
16 A I believed it was blood.
17 Q I am saying -- my question was were you able to
18 distinguish this from any other type of red stain?
19 A I believed it was a red stain and I believed it
20 was blood.
21 Q What about at the bottom of the door? Did you
22 see any brush marks of what you believed to be blood?
23 A No. I don't recall seeing that.
24 Q And that is not recorded anywhere in any of the
25 reports, is that?
26 A I don't know.
27 Q And that wasn't called to your attention by
28 anyone, was it?
0098
01 A I don't recall seeing that. I can't answer the
02 question.
03 Q When you and the three other detectives went to
04 Mr. O.J. Simpson's residence, did you inform the
05 communications division of your intentions?
06 A I don't believe so.
07 I didn't personally.
08 Q Did anyone, to your knowledge?
09 A No.
10 Q Is that standard procedure?
11 A I very seldom inform communications divisions of
12 my movements.
13 Q I just asked you if that is standard procedure.
14 MS. CLARK: Objection. That is irrelevant.
15 the COURT: Sustained.
16 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
17 Q If somebody told you from Bundy to take Bundy to
18 sunset, take sunset towards the beach to Rockingham and
19 turn right on Rockingham and go two blocks, could you
20 follow those directions?
21 A Yeah. I believe I could, yes. Bundy makes a
22 funny turn there; but, yes, I believe I could.
23 Q Could you follow that, funny turn or not?
24 A I think so, yes.
25 MS. CLARK: Objection. Argumentative.
26 the COURT: Sustained.
27 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
28 Q Could you find sunset boulevard from where you
0099
01 were without any directions?
02 A From where I was on Bundy?
03 Q From the Bundy location, could you find sunset
04 boulevard?
05 A Yes. I worked that division for three years.
06 Yes.
07 Q Was all your work completed at the crime scene by
08 the time you left to go to the Rockingham address?
09 A No.
10 Q How many officers were at the crime scene that
11 were higher ranking than you at the time you left?
12 A That were higher ranking than me?
13 Q Yes.
14 A I believe three.
15 Q Who were they?
16 A My lieutenant, john rogers, and, I believe, a
17 lieutenant and captain from west Los Angeles division.
18 Q What are their names?
19 A I don't know.
20 Q Would you check the chronological record done by
21 your partner and see if they were there at the time you
22 left.
23 MS. CLARK: Objection.
24 What is the relevance of who was present at the
25 crime scene?
26 The COURT: Mr. Shapiro?
27 MR. SHAPIRO: Yes.
28 This goes to credibility and impeachment.
0100
01 We are going to show that the four officers that
02 were in charge of this crime scene left the crime scene
03 within a very short period of time without properly
04 preserving the crime scene, not to go to the Simpson
05 residence because of an emergency but to go there because
06 of the celebrity nature of Mr. Simpson.
07 the COURT: Mr. Shapiro, the specific names of the
08 higher ranking officers that were present at the crime
09 scene, I don't see that that's relevant.
10 MR. SHAPIRO: the question was was there anybody left
11 there --
12 the court: the answer was there were three.
13 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
14 Q Would you check your chronological record to see
15 if there were, in fact, three people higher ranking than
16 you when you left the crime scene to go to Rockingham.
17 MS. CLARK: Same objection, your Honor.
18 the COURT: Sustained.
19 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
20 Q Did you leave somebody in charge of the crime
21 scene when you left?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Who did you leave in charge?
24 A My boss, lieutenant rogers.
25 Q Did you tell him what to do, or did he tell you
26 what to do?
27 A We informed him that we were going to go up there
28 to make a notification in an attempt to make a disposition
0101
01 for the children and to secure that crime scene and
02 maintain the security with the uniformed officers that were
03 there and we would be back.
04 Q So it was now his job to secure the crime scene,
05 and you were going to make your notification and find
06 someplace for the children to go?
07 A the crime scene was secured before I got there,
08 hours before I ever got there; so it was under security the
09 whole time.
10 Q You continued that security?
11 A exactly.
12 Q And then four detectives were going to go to make
13 a notification?
14 A yes.
15 Q How many detectives does it take to make a
16 notification?
17 A I don't know. I think that would depend on the
18 situation that you were in.
19 I don't know. One. It could take ten if there
20 were certain situations.
21 I don't know.
22 Q In this particular situation, when you were going
23 to O.J. Simpson's residence, how many detectives did you
24 think were necessary to make the notification?
25 A myself and my partner went up there, and we were
26 accompanied by detective Fuhrman and detective Phillips.
27 Q I know that is the fact. My question is how many
28 do you feel were necessary to go make the notification.
0102
01 A I don't think I ever even considered that.
02 How many do I think is necessary to make a
03 notification?
04 Q YES.
05 A normally we go in pairs for a number of reasons.
06 Number one, we have two people that are privy to the
07 information plus for our own personal safety, we don't go
08 places by ourselves. So a minimum of two. And the other
09 two officers went with us, which is not unusual.
10 Q So four people to make a notification is your
11 answer?
12 A No. You didn't -- two. the other two officers
13 went with us, which is not unusual.
14 Q And of the four that went, they were the four
15 highest ranking investigative detectives?
16 A No.
17 Q there were other detectives there who had been
18 assigned to this case that had jobs that exceeded yours?
19 A I don't understand that. I don't know what you
20 mean.
21 Q OKAY.
22 Were you primarily responsible for the
23 investigation of the murder scene?
24 A Myself and my partner, yes.
25 Q Thank you.
26 And you had relieved detective phillips and
27 detective Vannatter?
28 The COURT: This is Vannatter.
0103
01 the WITNESS: I didn't relieve myself.
02 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
03 Q You know, I am getting a little tired myself.
04 You had relieved the two West L.A. detectives?
05 A they were assisting us. We assumed
06 responsibility; however, they assisted us and they still
07 continue to assist us to this day.
08 Q Where were the children at the point in time you
09 went to Mr. Simpson's residence?
10 A I was told they were at west Los Angeles division
11 of the Los Angeles police department.
12 Q Does the Los Angeles police department have
13 facilities or special people to deal with children in
14 situations such as this?
15 A the Los Angeles police department has a juvenile
16 division; however, I don't believe they would be working
17 that time of the morning.
18 Q Does it have people who are specially trained in
19 dealing with children, to care for their whereabouts, in
20 the event of the unfortunate death or murder of a parent or
21 parents?
22 A Again, they have juvenile officers that work
23 nothing but juvenile. I would say they are probably very
24 competent in handling juveniles. But at that time of the
25 day, I don't believe they would be working.
26 Q Did you check?
27 A Did I check?
28 Q Yes.
0104
01 A No, I did not.
02 Q Did you check on the welfare and concerns for the
03 children before you went to Rockingham?
04 A I spoke to detective phillips, who told me they
05 had been taken from the location to west Los Angeles
06 division, where they were being cared for.
07 Q And did you ask him if they were being properly
08 cared for or if there was any real immediate concern for
09 them, or were you really more concerned with your criminal
10 investigation and you pursued --
11 A Well, I think -- being a father myself and being
12 a grandfather, any time I deal with minor children and any
13 kind of traumatic situation like this, I think they have to
14 be attended to; and I had concern for those children
15 because we are talking about a very traumatic thing to be
16 taken out of your bed at midnight or 12:30 in the morning
17 by the police in your home and removed from your home and
18 taken to a police station. That is a very traumatic
19 thing. And if it was my children or my grandchild, I would
20 want whoever to be very, very interested in the welfare of
21 that child.
22 Q I agree, and I hope --
23 a And I have that interest, believe me.
24 Q And I take it, in that regard, you would attempt,
25 after you couldn't reach Mr. Simpson, immediately to notify
26 the grandparents, who are really the next of kin?
27 A no. the grandparents are not the next of kin.
28 the father is the next of kin, and I think that is who I
0105
01 was trying to notify.
02 Q How about the next of kin of nicole, who was the
03 victim of this murder?
04 A the next of kin were the parents.
05 Q What attempts did you make to notify them?
06 A I believe they were notified by telephone.
07 Q What attempts --
08 a I just said my partner notified them that morning
09 by telephone.
10 Q What time?
11 A I don't know.
12 Q Do you have any records of that?
13 A I don't know.
14 I don't think so.
15 Q Would that be in the murder book?
16 A I don't know. there's a lot of information in
17 here. I don't know everything by heart that is in here.
18 MS. CLARK: For the record, the witness, when he said
19 "in here," is referring to a binder that appears to be
20 about 4 inches thick.
21 the COURT: All right.
22 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
23 Q Let me ask you a question.
24 If Mr. Goldman had been the sole victim of this
25 case under the same circumstances, would the same
26 investigation be taking place?
27 MS. CLARK: Objection. Irrelevant.
28 the COURT: Sustained.
0106
01 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
02 Q I take it the same precautions also were taken to
03 notify Mr. Goldman's next of kin?
04 A Once he was identified, yes.
05 Q Did somebody rush over to their house?
06 A I believe it was done by telephone, but I am not
07 sure.
08 Q Of the four detectives that you had, did any of
09 them phone Mr. Goldman's house?
10 MS. CLARK: Objection, your Honor. Irrelevant with
11 respect --
12 the court: Sustained.
13 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
14 Q When you got to the Simpson residence, you went
15 to the buzzer?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And upon arriving there, did you notice any other
18 vehicles other than the ford bronco?
19 A Yes.
20 Q What other vehicles did you notice?
21 A there was another vehicle parked on Ashford,
22 And -- I don't recall the description of it, but there was
23 another vehicle parked on Ashford.
24 Q Did you take photographs of that vehicle?
25 A Not to my knowledge.
26 Q Did you observe that vehicle to see whether there
27 were any things that looked like red spots on it?
28 A the vehicle just appeared to be a vehicle parked
0107
01 there at the curb.
02 Q Did you look into that vehicle?
03 A I didn't personally, no.
04 Q Did any of the other three detectives, to your
05 knowledge, look into that vehicle?
06 A I don't have any knowledge of that.
07 Q Did you check the license plate on that vehicle
08 and see who it was registered to?
09 A you know, I believe that was done, yes.
10 Q Who was that registered to?
11 A I believe the vehicle -- if I recall correctly, I
12 believe the vehicle belonged to Mr. Kaelin.
13 Q But you didn't take any steps to photograph or
14 preserve that vehicle, did you?
15 A Not to my knowledge.
16 Q How many times do you recall that you rang the
17 buzzer in an attempt to notify Mr. Simpson?
18 A How many times?
19 Q Yes.
20 Did you ring it once?
21 A Several. I couldn't tell you how many times.
22 Q Would you describe this -- we have heard
23 testimony about it. Would you describe what it is that
24 you --
25 a Sure.
26 It is like a little square speaker box that has a
27 button, and you press the button and you can hear the phone
28 ringing inside the residence.
0108
01 Q And you could clearly hear it ringing?
02 A Yes.
03 Q How many times did it ring, approximately? and
04 this is not of great importance to be accurate, but does it
05 just ring once or continue to ring with each press?
06 A It rings -- you press the button, and it will
07 ring -- and this is an estimate -- six to eight times and
08 then stops ringing. You push the button, and it starts the
09 cycle again.
10 Q You did this for 10 to 15 minutes?
11 A At least, yes.
12 Q Could you tell if more than one phone was
13 ringing?
14 A No. I could only hear the one.
15 Q About how far away were you from the house when
16 you were doing this?
17 A It's -- I could make an estimate of maybe 50 to
18 75 feet.
19 Q That ringing was pretty loud?
20 A Yeah. I could hear it.
21 Q Did you think if you called on a telephone it
22 would ring louder?
23 A No. I just thought someone would answer the
24 telephone. It was just another attempt to try to locate
25 someone.
26 Q Didn't this appear to be the telephone ringing?
27 A It appeared to be the intercom for the gate
28 system, yes.
0109
01 Q Did it appear to work on a telephone?
02 A I heard ringing.
03 Q You believed that a telephone was ringing, didn't
04 you?
05 A I think we are arguing a point -- something was
06 ringing inside. I didn't know whether it was a telephone
07 or intercom system that rang to alert someone there was a
08 person at the front gate. I heard ringing, Mr. Shapiro.
09 Q Does the Los Angeles police department have the
10 capabilities in an emergency situation of getting home
11 phone numbers of people who may have unlisted numbers?
12 A Not necessarily. When you have a nonpublished
13 number, you need to get -- normally you need a search
14 warrant to get that information.
15 Q Have you ever heard of something called a reverse
16 directory?
17 A Oh, absolutely; yes.
18 Q What is that?
19 A That is a directory that has published phone
20 numbers that coincide with addresses in it.
21 Q You look up the address and find the phone
22 number?
23 A If it is a published number, yes -- if it is a
24 published phone number.
25 Q Did you take any steps to go through official
26 Los Angeles police department channels to try to ascertain
27 the home phone number of Mr. Simpson?
28 A Did I personally?
0110
01 Q Yes.
02 A No, but I am aware of official steps that were
03 taken.
04 Q Did any of the other three detectives at the time
05 you were at the gate attempt to do this?
06 A Yes. Detective phillips notified the West L.A.
07 watch commander, who also contacted Westec Security.
08 Q That was the only attempt to do that?
09 A That was all we could do at that point. Yes.
10 Q Speaking of westec, when westec was out there,
11 did you or your partners there ask the westec
12 representatives if they were routinely notified when
13 Mr. Simpson was gone from the house for a day or more?
14 A I never asked that question.
15 Q What about the other three officers?
16 A I don't know.
17 Q Did it ever occur to you that even though
18 Mr. Simpson might have a full-time maid, she might have a
19 day or two off during the week?
20 A People have days off. I never -- we were told
21 there was a supposed to be a full-time live-in maid.
22 Q By whom?
23 A By westec security.
24 Q Does a full-time live-in maid to you mean seven
25 days a week, 24 hours a day?
26 A I don't know, sir. I have never had a maid.
27 Q Did you ask them whether she had any scheduled
28 days on or off?
0111
01 A I didn't, no.
02 Q Did any of the other three detectives ask that?
03 A I don't know that.
04 Q After there was no response from the attempts at
05 the telephone and ringing the buzzer, did you try to use
06 any type of amplified speakers or microphones to get the
07 attention of Mr. Simpson?
08 A No.
09 Q How long after you were ringing the buzzer did
10 you make the observation of the red blotch on the bronco?
11 A That would have been within the first probably 10
12 to 20 minutes of being there.
13 Q After ringing the buzzer?
14 A No; after getting to the location.
15 Q So you went to the bronco first?
16 A I saw the bronco as I pulled in. I didn't ring
17 the bell for the continuous time. I rang it some. Some of
18 the other detectives rang it some.
19 Q then you started looking at the bronco?
20 A I looked at the bronco when I first drove in; and
21 then after ringing the bell a few times, I went around
22 again and looked at the bronco. And that's when I observed
23 the items in the back of the car.
24 Q No. My question was when did you observe the
25 blood on the bronco.
26 A Within the first 10 to 20 minutes, when Fuhrman
27 came and took me back.
28 Q Of being at the scene? Of arriving at the scene?
0112
01 A Probably within that time frame, yes.
02 Q And is that reflected in any notes or any logs?
03 A Not to my knowledge.
04 Q Is that an important part of this investigation?
05 A That was a part that was continuing, yes.
06 Q Is that an important part?
07 A Yes.
08 Q And is that something that should be noted as to
09 the time of discovery?
10 A It is something -- it is something that -- again,
11 if I can explain the situation, we have an emergency
12 situation. We are not able to stop --
13 MR. SHAPIRO: Your Honor --
14 THE WITNESS: May I finish my answer, sir?
15 MR. SHAPIRO: I have an objection.
16 the WITNESS: He has an objection to his own question?
17 the COURT: I don't think he is objecting to the
18 question. I think he is objecting to your answer.
19 Detective, I believe the question was should the
20 time of that discovery have been noted in --
21 the WITNESS: And I am trying to explain why it isn't,
22 your Honor, if I may do that.
23 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
24 Q My question is not why it isn't but should it
25 have been.
26 MS. CLARK: That goes to why it is or is not.
27 the COURT: Let's hear the answer to the question and
28 then hear your explanation.
0113
01 the WITNESS: I can't say "yes" or "no" to that. That
02 depends on the circumstances you are in.
03 If you are in a gun battle someplace, you don't
04 have time to say, "hold on. Let me write this time down."
05 If you have an emergency situation, you don't
06 have time to break and say, "hold on a second. I need to
07 record all of this."
08 In this situation it was not recorded because I
09 didn't feel at that point I could stop and start taking
10 notes because things were happening too quick.
11 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
12 Q Did you hear any noise from inside the residence
13 that caused you concern that somebody might be dying?
14 A I heard no noise at all outside the ringing, and
15 that caused me concern because I believed people could be
16 there.
17 Q And your sole purpose at this time was to notify
18 somebody of a death and to find the father of the children?
19 A At what time, sir?
20 Q At the point in time that you are at the
21 residence for the first 15 minutes.
22 A Before observing the blood.
23 Q You said you observed the blood immediately and
24 then went and rang the bell.
25 A No, I didn't.
26 Q YES, you did.
27 A No, I didn't.
28 Q Isn't it your testimony the bell was ringing for
0114
01 15 minutes and within the first 10 minutes you observed the
02 blood?
03 A no. That's not true.
04 Q Let's go over that.
05 When did you observe the blood?
06 A I got to the location. We went to the Ashford
07 side, parked the vehicle, got out, attempted to ring the
08 bell. Telephone calls were made to westec security. they
09 sent -- actually ended up sending two units to the
10 location. A telephone call was made to the watch commander
11 at the West L.A. division. And during all of this
12 occurrence, detective Fuhrman came to me and said, "I think
13 I see blood on the vehicle." And he walked me over there.
14 This could have been -- this could have been ten minutes
15 into it. It could have been 30 minutes into it. I
16 couldn't tell you exactly.
17 Q You could tell us because you made a telephone
18 call to the watch commander.
19 A No. I can't tell you exactly because all of this
20 is occurring -- this is not a sequence of events,
21 Mr. Shapiro. It is a group of things that are occurring at
22 the same time.
23 Q RIGHT at the time the blood was spotted, you
24 determined this to be an emergency situation? Yes or no?
25 A Right at the time it was spotted -- I believe I
26 was getting to that frame of mind prior to that because of
27 the prior information I had, the fact I had left a very
28 brutal scene that is very close to this location, the fact
0115
01 that one of the victims had a connection to Mr. Simpson.
02 I think I was getting in that frame of mind
03 before I ever saw the blood. I think seeing the blood was
04 the trigger that caused me to make a decision to go over
05 the fence.
06 Q What was the time of death of the decedents, to
07 the best of your knowledge at the time you were at
08 Rockingham?
09 A the time of death?
10 Well, I can only tell you that I was informed
11 that -- I believe they were found, or discovered, at
12 approximately 0010 hours, which would be ten after
13 midnight. the time of death, I would have no idea.
14 Q It was sometime before but certainly not after --
15 a Obviously sometime before 0010 hours would be
16 time of death, yes.
17 Q And what time did you decide to scale the fence
18 for the emergency at the Simpson house?
19 A I believe it was very close to 6 o'clock, around
20 6 o'clock, in the morning.
21 Q now, you went over there -- when you scaled the
22 fence, you believed there may be hostages inside; is that
23 correct?
24 A I believed there may be a whole set of
25 circumstances.
26 Q No. Let's take them one by one.
27 Was one of your set of circumstances your belief
28 there could be hostages inside?
0116
01 A I can't answer that "yes" or "no." there could
02 have been thousands of scenarios in that situation.
03 The facts -- may I finish?
04 The facts that led me up to going over the wall
05 include a set of facts that led me to believe this was an
06 emergency situation.
07 Q Can you tell us whether or not you believed there
08 was hostage situation? Yes or no?
09 A That could have been a possibility, yes.
10 Q And if there was a hostage situation, would you
11 notify communications for backup?
12 A If I was totally aware of that, that would change
13 the entire circumstances of the entry into that location.
14 What you are talking about is you are taking a
15 tactical field situation and equating it to an emergency
16 field situation, which is two different sets of
17 circumstances.
18 Q Did you believe the possibility of people in the
19 residence or on the grounds bleeding to death?
20 A That was a possibility, yes.
21 Q If you truly believed that, would you call
22 communications and ask for paramedics?
23 A Not until I made sure that was a safe location,
24 no.
25 Q If you were concerned about your safety, would
26 you go in with backup units?
27 A Definitely.
28 Q Did you go in with backup units?
0117
01 A No.
02 Q If you were concerned about your safety, would
03 you go in with vests?
04 A Definitely.
05 Q Did you go in with vests?
06 A No.
07 Q If you were concerned about your safety, would
08 you go in with weapons drawn?
09 A Yes.
10 Q Did you go in with weapons drawn?
11 A No.
12 MR. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, before we go into another
13 area, which may be more lengthy, perhaps this might be a
14 good time. It is a few minutes early. May I suggest a
15 break?
16 The COURT: All right.
17 Thank you, detective Vannatter. Please do not
18 discuss your testimony with any other witness.
19 May I see counsel in chambers, please.
20 Recess until 1:30.
21
22 (proceedings were had in chambers
23 which were transcribed in volume
24 8-a, ordered sealed by the court.)
25 (at 12:05 p.m., a recess was taken
26 until 1:30 p.m.)
27
28 -o0o-
0118
01 THE MUNICIPAL COURT OF LOS ANGELES JUDICIAL DISTRICT
02 COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES, STATE OF CALIFORNIA
03
03
04 THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA, )
04 ) no. BA097211
05 PLAINTIFF, )
05 )
06 VS. )
06 )
07 )
07 ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON, )
08 AKA O.J. SIMPSON, )
08 )
09 )
09 )
10 DEFENDANT. )
10 _______________________________________)
11
11
12 STATE OF CALIFORNIA )
12 ) SS
13 COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES )
13
14
14
15
16 I HEREBY CERTIFY THAT I AM AN OFFICIAL C.A.T.
17 COURT REPORTER OF THE ABOVE-ENTITLED COURT; THAT I DID
18 CORRECTLY REPORT THE PROCEEDINGS CONTAINED HEREIN; AND
19 THAT THE FOREGOING IS A TRUE AND CORRECT STATEMENT OF
20 PROCEEDINGS AND TRANSCRIPTION OF MY SAID NOTES.
21
21
22 DATED THIS 6th DAY OF July, 1994.
22
23
23
24 _____________________________________
24 ARNELLA I. SIMS, CSR #2896
25 OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
25
26
26
27 _____________________________________
27 ROBERT GUNN, CSR #1539
28 OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
28
0119
01
0001
01 IN THE MUNICIPAL COURT OF LOS ANGELES JUDICIAL DISTRICT
02 COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES, STATE OF CALIFORNIA
03 HON. KATHLEEN KENNEDY-POWELL, JUDGE DEPARTMENT 105
04 THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA, ) NO. BA097211
04 )
05 PLAINTIFF, )
05 )
06 VS. ) VOLUME 9
06 )
07 )
07 ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON, )
08 AKA O.J. SIMPSON, )
08 )
09 )
09 DEFENDANT. )
10 _______________________________________)
10
11
11
12 REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
12
13 WEDNESDAY, JULY 6, 1994
13
14
14
15 APPEARANCES:
15
16 FOR THE PLAINTIFF: MARCIA CLARK
16 WILLIAM HODGMAN
17 DEPUTIES DISTRICT ATTORNEY
17
18
18
19 FOR THE DEFENDANT: ROBERT SHAPIRO
19 GERALD UELMEN
20 PRIVATELY RETAINED COUNSEL
20
21
21
22
22
23 SPECIAL CIRCUMSTANCES
23
24
24
25
25
26
26 ARNELLA I. SIMS, CSR #2896
27 ROBERT GUNN, CSR #1539
27 OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
28
0002
01 MOTION TO SUPPRESS
01
02 I N D E X
02
03 PEOPLE'S WITNESS(ES): DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS
03
04 PHILLIP VANNATTER 4 15
04 18
05
05 BRIAN KATO KAELIN 52 54 57
06
06
07 DEFENDANT'S WITNESS(ES):
07
08 PHILLIP VANNATTER 22
08
09 BRIAN KATO KAELIN 33 40
09
10 ARNELLE LORRAINE SIMPSON 60 68
10
11 CATHY RANDA 75
11
12 DENNIS FUNG 80 83 85
12
13
13 -O0O-
14
14 EXHIBITS
15
15 MOTION TO SUPPRESS
16
16
17 DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT(S): FOR IDENTIFICATION IN EVIDENCE
17
18 E - NOTES OF OFFICER NOT
18 FUHRMAN RECEIVED
19
19 F - SERIES OF PHOTOS 7
20
20 G-1 - IMPOUND REPORT NOT RECEIVED
21
21 G-2 - IMPOUND REPORT NOT RECEIVED
22
22 G-3 - IMPOUND REPORT NOT RECEIVED
23
23 H - SEARCH WARRANT 23 NOT
24 AFFIDAVIT RECEIVED
24
25
25 PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT(S):
26
26 6 - SERIES OF PHOTOS 9
27
27 8 - SERIES OF PHOTOS 9
28
28 9 - SERIES OF PHOTOS 9
0003
01 LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA
02 WEDNESDAY JULY 6, 1994
03 1:32 P.M.
04 -O0O-
05
06 THE COURT: We're once again on the record in the
07 case of People versus Simpson.
08 The defendant is present with counsel, the
09 people are represented.
10 Detective Vannatter, if you'd retake the
11 witness STAND, sir.
12 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor.
13 THE COURT: And I remind you that you remain under
14 oath.
15 THE WITNESS: Yes.
16
17 PHILLIP VANNATTER,
18 called as a witness by and on behalf of the People,
19 having been previously called and duly sworn, resumed
20 the stand and testified further as follows:
21 THE COURT: Mr. Shapiro?
22 MR. SHAPIRO: No further questions at this time,
23 Your Honor.
24 THE COURT: No further questions?
25 MR. SHAPIRO: No.
26 THE COURT: Ms. Clark?
27 MS. CLARK: Thank you, Your Honor.
28 \ \
0004
01 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
02
03 BY MS. CLARK:
04 Q Detective Vannatter, I'm kind of curious.
05 You said that you were very surprised by a
06 maid not being there on the property. And that you
07 didn't -- on cross-examination, I think you indicated
08 that you did not consider the possibility that she would
09 have some days off.
10 Did you expect someone to always be on that
11 property?
12 A Well, from the appearance of the property,
13 with lights on and vehicles parked there, yes, I thought
14 someone was there.
15 Q And when you say "vehicles parked there," you
16 mean the one on Rockingham, the Bronco outside?
17 A Well, that as well as two other vehicles that
18 were parked inside the compound in the driveway which
19 would be on the Rockingham drive.
20 Q There were multiple vehicles inside the
21 driveway?
22 A There were two other vehicles that I could
23 see, yes.
24 Q and you could see that from the Ashford gate?
25 A Well, no. I saw that from the Rockingham
26 gate. When I walked over to that area, I could see it.
27 Q When you walked over and you were looking at
28 the Bronco?
0005
01 A That's correct, yes.
02 Q You could see through that gate?
03 A Yes.
04 Q Can you show us on that defense diagram where
05 you saw those other cars?
06 A Certainly. The vehicles were parked up in
07 this area here, which is the little jut out that looked
08 like a parking area for vehicles. And looking through
09 the gate, you could see the vehicles parked there.
10 MS. CLARK: For the record, the witness has pointed
11 to an area that is actually just above the area of what
12 is marked as the word "driveway" on the diagram, that is
13 the southern most portion of the property.
14 THE COURT: All right.
15 BY MS. CLARK:
16 Q So counsel was asking you about using the
17 chrono log forms.
18 A Yes.
19 Q What is the difference between a blank piece
20 of paper and the form that you used for your
21 chronological log?
22 A Nothing, except there's lines on the
23 chronological log and there's a heading that says
24 "chronological log."
25 Q So the difference between a blank page and the
26 chrono log form is horizontal lines and a heading.
27 A Yes.
28 Q What information is usually required to be on
0006
01 a chronological log? When you make an entry, what are
02 you supposed to put in that entry?
03 A The entries are mainly very general entries as
04 to the day and quite possibly the time that you make a
05 follow-up, but you never put the information that you
06 receive from that on the log.
07 Q That just records what you did, not the
08 results of what you did?
09 A Exactly.
10 Q And did you look at the chronological log
11 that's been compiled so far in this case?
12 A When it was in front of me, yes.
13 Q What information -- what is the difference
14 between what you've got on the blank pages written down
15 on the chronological log than you would have had on the
16 form with the lines on it?
17 A There would be no difference.
18 Q So you've got the same information on this
19 chrono log that you would have if you had used the forms
20 with the horizontal lines and the headings.
21 A Yes.
22 Q Now, the photographs of the Bronco --
23 MS. CLARK: I wonder if I could inquire of the
24 clerk.
25 Do we have the defense exhibits here?
26 THE CLERK: I have all the exhibits, yes.
27 MS. CLARK: Could you bring them?
28 THE CLERK: Sure.
0007
01 MS. CLARK: Thank you.
02 BY MS. CLARK:
03 Q How many pictures of the Ford Bronco in its
04 position on the street were taken, sir?
05 A I don't know.
06 Q More than one?
07 A Several, I would say, yes.
08 Q Do you remember what each and every one of
09 them look like right now?
10 A No, I do not.
11 Q You requested the criminalist to make sure
12 that photographs were taken of that Bronco, I think you
13 so testified.
14 A Yes.
15 Q What was your intention with respect to taking
16 those photographs of the Bronco?
17 A To document any evidence and the location of
18 the vehicle and the identity of the vehicle.
19 MS. CLARK: There is a defense EXHIBIT. I don't
20 know which one that is, Your Honor, with the --
21 THE COURT: Is that the one with the four photos on
22 it?
23 MS. CLARK: Yes.
24 THE COURT: That is 'F'.
25 MS. CLARK: Thank you very much.
26 BY MS. CLARK:
27 Q Showing you Defense Exhibit 'F', do you
28 recognize what's shown in there, sir?
0008
01 A Yes, I do.
02 Q What is it?
03 A It's four pictures, labeled 1 through 4, of
04 different perspectives of the same vehicle, the Ford
05 Bronco.
06 Q Okay. And showing you Defense Exhibit 'C',
07 do you recognize what's shown there?
08 A Yes, I do.
09 Q What's shown there?
10 A That's the Ford Bronco, the west wall, and the
11 Rockingham gate to Mr. Simpson's residence.
12 Q Looking at those photographs, sir, defense
13 counsel, I think, asked you whether the pictures taken
14 of the Ford Bronco at your direction through the
15 criminalist were accurate pictures of the position of
16 that car as you saw it on Rockingham.
17 Do you recall that question, sir?
18 A Yes.
19 Q With respect to whether or not the car had
20 been moved from the position in which you first observed
21 it, is that -- is it the case that the car was not moved
22 before those photographs were taken?
23 A The car was not moved.
24 Q Can you see in those photographs the angle
25 that you've described for us earlier with the rear end
26 jutting out a little bit, appearing to have been parked
27 in haste?
28 A Yes, I can.
0009
01 Q Show us where.
02 A If you look at pictures number 2 and number 4,
03 it shows the front wheel of the vehicle to be setting
04 actually on the paved curb section -- part of the paved
05 curb section in the asphalt. And the back wheel, the
06 passenger side, to be strictly on the asphalt, farther
07 west than the front wheel.
08 Q And are either of the wheels up next to the
09 curb?
10 A No, they are not.
11 Q I think you earlier indicated that at some
12 point you saw the children leaving the house.
13 A Yes.
14 Q Do you recall what transpired in terms of
15 arranging for their care and custody while you were in
16 the house on 360 Rockingham?
17 A Yes, I do.
18 Q Can you please tell us?
19 A After Detective Lange had a conversation with
20 Mr. Simpson, Mr. Simpson had indicated to Detective
21 Lange that he wished the children to be with his
22 daughter, Arnelle.
23 She was notified of that, contacted Al
24 Cowlings. He responded to the location and they went
25 to West Los Angeles division and picked up the children.
26 Q Do you know when the children arrived at 360
27 Rockingham with Al Cowlings?
28 A I know approximately. It would have been
0010
01 around, I believe, around 7:00 o'clock in the morning.
02 Q And how long after that did you determine that
03 the area should be sealed for the purpose of securing a
04 search warrant?
05 A I had actually come to that conclusion a
06 little earlier than that. I was waiting for the
07 criminalist to respond there to do a presumptive blood
08 test for me, and after that was done was when I closed
09 down the area and secured the area.
10 Q And you closed down -- do you remember what
11 time it was approximately when you secured the area?
12 A It would have been between 7:00 and 7:30. I
13 left the location approximately 7:30, so it was before I
14 left there. So it would have been some time in the
15 range of probably 7:10 to 7:15, something like that.
16 Q Shortly after Al Cowlings got there with the
17 children?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Counsel asked you on cross-examination about
20 tactical support, I think it was mentioned, with respect
21 to, in that instance, the effort made to take the
22 defendant into custody.
23 Do you recall that question, sir?
24 A Yes, I do.
25 Q How is that situation different from the one
26 that you found confronting you at 360 Rockingham in the
27 early morning hours of June 13th?
28 A Well, a tactical situation is totally
0011
01 different from the situation we were facing there. I
02 believed this to be an emergency situation which
03 requires, I felt, action to be taken.
04 A tactical situation is if you have a location
05 that you know you have a suspect, a hostage or whatever,
06 if these are known facts, you immediately request
07 uniforms to respond. You notify a supervisor.
08 Detectives are required to put on vests and
09 what we call raid jackets, Los Angeles police raid
10 jackets, that readily identify us as police officers.
11 This was not this situation at all. This
12 situation was something that I felt was an emergency
13 that needed to be handle immediately.
14 Q And in this situation, did you believe that
15 you had -- did you believe that you were pursuing a
16 suspect into the residence at 360 Rockingham?
17 A I really didn't know what I was pursuing in
18 there. I had no specific suspect in mind at that
19 point.
20 My main feeling at that point, coupled with
21 all the information I had, was this was a situation that
22 someone could be injured, we could have another murder
23 scene, we could have a murder/suicide scene, we could
24 have people that needed assistance. And that was my
25 feeling.
26 Q So would it be fair to say, sir, that you were
27 concerned not so much for your safety, but for the
28 safety of someone else you might find inside the
0012
01 compound?
02 MR. SHAPIRO: Objection; leading and suggestive.
03 THE COURT: sustained.
04 BY MS. CLARK:
05 Q Were you concerned for officers' safety at the
06 moment you decided to go over the wall?
07 A Not at all. I wouldn't have let anyone enter
08 that location the way we were if I felt there was a
09 safety problem at that time.
10 Q Well, if you were concerned for someone else's
11 safety, sir, why didn't you call an ambulance right then
12 before you went over the wall?
13 A I would never call an ambulance until an area
14 has been cleared and secured. I don't want to bring
15 someone else in that could be in danger. I wouldn't do
16 that.
17 Q So until you found out what you had back
18 there, you were not about to call an ambulance.
19 A No, not until I assessed the situation and
20 actually knew what I was dealing with.
21 At that point, again, I didn't really know
22 what I was dealing with. I was -- I had certain
23 knowledge that gave me a feeling that this was an
24 emergency situation and something that had to be dealt
25 with immediately.
26 And at that point I didn't know whether I had
27 people down, I didn't know whether I had, again, another
28 scene, someone injured. I didn't know.
0013
01 MS. CLARK: May I have a moment, Your Honor?
02 THE COURT: Yes.
03 MS. CLARK: Thank you.
04 BY MS. CLARK:
05 Q You were asked earlier, sir, about the method
06 in which Ronald Goldman (sic) was notified and how long
07 it took to do that.
08 A You mean the family of Mr. Goldman.
09 Q That's correct, I'm sorry.
10 A Yes.
11 Q Thank you.
12 When you arrived at the crime scene at
13 about 4:00 a.m., were you aware of the identity of the
14 male victim who was found near Nicole Simpson?
15 A No.
16 Q Was anyone, to your knowledge, at the crime
17 scene aware of his identity?
18 A No.
19 Q At what point was his identity made known to
20 you?
21 A I actually found out his identity while I was
22 at West Los Angeles station. It would have been
23 somewhere between 10:00 and 11:00 o'clock. That the
24 coroner's representatives had responded to the location
25 and they had identified him from identification that was
26 on him. Also --
27 Q So when the coroner's investigator arrived and
28 found identification on him, that's when his identity
0014
01 was determined?
02 A That's correct.
03 Q Do you know what time that was, approximately?
04 A Well, I got notification while I was at
05 West L.A. division. It would have been after
06 10:00 o'clock, I'm sure of that.
07 Q With respect to -- let's say for a moment that
08 you knew that there was a suspect in 360 Rockingham
09 Avenue.
10 What would you have done?
11 MR. SHAPIRO: Objection; calls for speculation.
12 MS. CLARK: This is an expert witness, Your Honor,
13 who knows -- he's describing actually the differences
14 between the situation he was confronted with and that
15 with which he was questioned by Mr. Shapiro.
16 THE COURT: Are you asking how he would have
17 handled it differently if he was pursuing a suspect and
18 he knew he was pursuing a suspect before he entered the
19 premises?
20 MS. CLARK: Yes, Your Honor.
21 THE COURT: The objection is overruled.
22 THE WITNESS: Well, that would have become a
23 tactical situation then. I would have made
24 notification to the West Los Angeles watch commander,
25 requested uniforms to respond to the location. I would
26 have placed officers around the residence to secure the
27 residence.
28 I would have had the detectives there put on
0015
01 vests and raid jackets, and I would have contacted,
02 probably, our Metropolitan Division to have special
03 negotiators come out and try to talk the suspect out of
04 the location.
05 MS. CLARK: I have nothing further.
06 THE COURT: Mr. Shapiro?
07 MR. SHAPIRO: Yes, Your Honor, thank you.
08
09 RECROSS-EXAMINATION
10
11 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
12 Q Detective, regarding the Ford Bronco, at some
13 point in time did that vehicle have some evidentiary
14 value in and of itself?
15 A Yes.
16 Q When did you determine it had evidentiary
17 value?
18 A After looking at all of the scene that I saw
19 there and as it began to lighten up that morning, after
20 seeing the blood trail in the driveway, I could see into
21 the vehicle and see additional blood inside the vehicle,
22 and at that point it became a very important evidentiary
23 item.
24 Q What time was that?
25 A Probably around the -- right after I saw the
26 blood trail in the driveway.
27 Q What time was that about?
28 A That would have been -- again, I will have to
0016
01 estimate. That would probably have been around 6:45
02 to 7:00 o'clock, something like that.
03 Q And what steps did you take to secure that
04 vehicle and preserve the evidence?
05 A I instructed the detectives that the vehicle
06 was to be impounded. It was to be guarded.
07 And I told the criminalist who responded at
08 7:10 that it was of evidentiary value, to photograph,
09 obtain any items of evidence that he could from the
10 outside, and to protect the vehicle.
11 Q Were your instructions followed?
12 A To the best of my knowledge, yes.
13 Q Did you have any reports that the media
14 surrounded the car, they couldn't keep the media away
15 from it, and coffee cups were put on the car and coffee
16 spilled?
17 A No, sir, I was not aware of that.
18 Q What do you mean by "securing the premises"?
19 A In what context, Mr. Shapiro?
20 Q The term you used. You used that all this
21 morning, secured the -- "I secured the premises."
22 What do you mean by that?
23 A Well, in a literal sense -- that's a police
24 term that's used. In a literal sense, it can mean a
25 couple of things.
26 Q What did you mean by it when you used it this
27 morning?
28 A Okay. What I meant this morning is a check
0017
01 of the location to make sure that everything's okay,
02 that there's no forced entry into the home, that there's
03 nobody injured, that there's nobody down or nobody in
04 need of assistance.
05 Q What time did you make that determination that
06 the residence was secure?
07 A What time did I make the determination that it
08 was secured?
09 That, again, would have been, I believe, after
10 walking back outside and being notified that Mr. Simpson
11 was in Chicago, that he had been talked to and that he
12 was in route back to Los Angeles; that the maid was not
13 present at the location and that nobody else was found
14 there.
15 And that would have been probably 6:45 to 7:00
16 in the morning.
17 Q You later determined that the bedrooms for the
18 house itself -- not the guest bedrooms, but the main
19 bedrooms -- were on the second story, did you not?
20 A Yes.
21 MR. SHAPIRO: Thank you. Nothing further.
22 THE COURT: Ms. Clark, anything else?
23 MS. CLARK: I'm sorry, Your Honor, may I have a
24 moment.
25
26
27
28 \ \
0018
01 FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION
02
03 by MS. CLARK:
04 Q Well, Detective Vannatter, if you were
05 concerned, sir, about the welfare of people inside the
06 residence, why didn't you go upstairs and look to see if
07 somebody was up there?
08 A I had determined before I had a chance to do
09 that that the main person that we were concerned
10 about -- in fact, the main two people we were concerned
11 about, Mr. Simpson and the maid, were accounted for, and
12 was also told that there was no one else at the
13 location.
14 MS. CLARK: I have nothing further.
15 THE COURT: Mr. Shapiro, anything further?
16 MR. SHAPIRO: No, thank you, Your Honor.
17 THE COURT: Thank you, detective. You may step
18 down.
19 Please do not discuss your testimony with
20 anyone except the attorneys.
21 Next witness.
22 MS. CLARK: Yes.
23 No further witnesses for the people,
24 Your Honor.
25 THE COURT: All right.
26 Mr. Shapiro, do you intend to present some
27 evidence with regard to this motion?
28 MR. SHAPIRO: Yes, Your Honor.
0019
01 The first piece of evidence that we will
02 present is already part of the court record, and that's
03 the search warrant affidavit --
04 MS. CLARK: There would be an objection --
05 MR. SHAPIRO: -- That was signed -- excuse me.
06 MS. CLARK: I'm sorry. I thought counsel had
07 completed.
08 MR. SHAPIRO: -- That has been signed under penalty
09 of perjury by Detective Vannatter, and that is part of
10 the court record and part of the proceedings that have
11 been filed with this court. We'd like the court to
12 consider that.
13 In addition, we want to call the criminalist
14 for the Los Angeles Police Department, Mr. Fung, and we
15 have two other civilian witnesses --
16 MR. UELMEN: Three others.
17 MR. SHAPIRO: -- three other civilian witnesses.
18 THE COURT: Ms. Clark, with respect to the search
19 warrant affidavit, do you wish to be heard?
20 MS. CLARK: Yes, Your Honor, thank you.
21 First of all, I think Mr. Shapiro has failed
22 to lay a foundation. He has not questioned the
23 detective concerning whether this affidavit was written
24 by him or he is the affiant or this is the search
25 warrant for this location. That would be easily laid,
26 so he's failed to do so.
27 Secondly, it's not in issue. We are not
28 litigating this search warrant, and any of the
0020
01 assertions contained therein do not pertain to the state
02 of mind that was prevailing at the moment the decision
03 was made to go over the wall. That is the only state
04 of mind and the only set of circumstances that are now
05 in issue before this court.
06 Therefore, this warrant and any variants that
07 are contained therein are irrelevant.
08 THE COURT: Mr. Shapiro.
09 MR. SHAPIRO: Yes. The copy that I have is a
10 warrant signed under penalty of perjury by Phillip L.
11 Vannatter, who I believe is the witness here, since he
12 describes himself as being the same person who testified
13 as a police detective for the Los Angeles Police
14 Department, assigned to robbery homicide special
15 section, and he's been a police officer for over 25
16 years.
17 If there is another Vannatter who has such
18 similar credentials and has been employed with the same
19 exact name and same badge number, then we will take the
20 Court's time to establish the foundation.
21 THE COURT: well, Mr. Shapiro, what is your legal
22 theory for the admissibility of this document?
23 MR. SHAPIRO: This document is evidence. This is
24 evidence that is sworn under penalty of perjury, that is
25 part of the official court record of this case.
26 There are in this warrant, in our opinion,
27 four material misrepresentations that go to impeach the
28 credibility of Detective Vannatter and his testimony
0021
01 here today.
02 THE COURT: All right.
03 MR. SHAPIRO: It is offered only for the purpose of
04 impeachment.
05 THE COURT: Mr. Shapiro, basically this document is
06 hearsay. The fact that it is under -- declared to be
07 true under penalty of perjury does not relieve it from
08 the category of hearsay.
09 And for an exception to apply -- and there may
10 be some exception to certain portions of that warrant or
11 the affidavit, I don't know that -- but if there are
12 some inconsistent statements with the testimony here,
13 conceivably portions of that may in fact be admissible.
14 But just to offer the affidavit as such in a
15 whole is hearsay without any exception.
16 So I'm going to sustain the objection.
17 MR. SHAPIRO: May I be heard, Your Honor?
18 THE COURT: Yes.
19 MR. SHAPIRO: Under Proposition 115, that is not a
20 valid objection, with all due respect to the court.
21 Number two, all --
22 THE COURT: Just a minute.
23 MR. SHAPIRO: May I finish?
24 THE COURT: I'll let you finish, Mr. Shapiro, but
25 Proposition 115 does not apply to the suppression
26 hearing.
27 MR. SHAPIRO: I believe all relevant evidence is
28 admissible and that hearsay evidence on a prior
0022
01 inconsistent statement is an exception to the hearsay
02 rule and would be admissible.
03 We'll submit the matter, Your Honor.
04 THE COURT: All right.
05 On just the basis of the affidavit, offering
06 that without any sort of foundation, without any
07 testimony from a live witness with regard to that
08 statement, the hearsay objection and the relevance
09 objections would apply and I would not receive the
10 affidavit in this form.
11 MR. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, we'd like to recall
12 officer Vannatter, please.
13 THE COURT: All right.
14 I think I've said this before. You remain
15 under oath.
16 MR. SHAPIRO: Yes, Your Honor.
17
18 PHILLIP VANNATTER,
19 called as a witness by and on behalf of the defendant,
20 having been duly sworn, was examined and testified as
21 follows:
22
23 DIRECT EXAMINATION
24
25 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
26 Q Detective Vannatter, are you the affiant in
27 search warrant number 94-0093?
28 A Yes.
0023
01 Q And that's a document, a copy of which has
02 been handed to me, which consists of the affidavit
03 itself, consists of two and a half pages -- two and a
04 quarter pages, actually.
05 A I believe that's correct, yes.
06 Q Let me just show it to you and make sure we're
07 talking about the same document.
08 A Okay.
09 MR. SHAPIRO: May I approach the witness, YOUR
10 HONOR?
11 THE COURT: Yes.
12 Did you wish to mark this as an exhibit?
13 MR. SHAPIRO: Yes. Defendant's next.
14 THE COURT: 'H'.
15 MR. SHAPIRO: Yes, thank you, Your Honor.
16 THE WITNESS: Yes. That appears to be a copy of
17 it, yes.
18 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
19 Q It appears to be or it is?
20 A Well, it's a copy of the original, yes.
21 Q And where is the original, if you know?
22 A The original was returned to the court.
23 Q Filed as part of this case?
24 A Yes.
25 Q You executed this affidavit under penalty of
26 perjury, did you not?
27 A That's correct.
28 Q In the affidavit, you indicated the
0024
01 following: "detectives observed what appeared to be
02 human blood, later confirmed by scientific investigation
03 personnel to be human blood, on the driver's door handle
04 of the vehicle."
05 Did you write that, sir?
06 A Yes, I did.
07 Q When did scientific investigation personnel
08 tell you that it was human blood on the door handle?
09 MS. CLARK: objection; irrelevant.
10 Your Honor, counsel is trying to back-door a
11 motion to traverse and quash, and as we've indicated
12 earlier, nothing pursuant to the WARRANT is being
13 offered.
14 In order to get into issues concerning the
15 validity of the warrants, something has to be offered by
16 the people that was seized pursuant thereto, and it's
17 not.
18 The state of mind of this officer at the time
19 he wrote the warrant is irrelevant to the state of mind
20 that he had that bore upon his decision to go over the
21 wall. And none of these questions concerning the
22 veracity or the accuracy of the statements contained in
23 this affidavit are relevant.
24 THE COURT: Mr. Shapiro.
25 MR. SHAPIRO: Yes.
26 Your Honor, we are only offering this for
27 impeachment as it goes to credibility of this witness.
28 Your Honor is going to have to make a decision on
0025
01 credibility regarding whether or not the testimony that
02 has been proffered here to Your Honor is in fact
03 credible testimony as one of the criteria for making
04 you're evaluations as to whether or not evidence should
05 be suppressed.
06 In evaluating the credibility of a witness, we
07 are certainly entitled to use previous testimony under
08 oath for purposes of impeachment on a relevant issue,
09 not on a collateral issue.
10 This is a relevant issue. This is testimony
11 given under oath by this detective. It is relevant and
12 material to his credibility, and that is the only
13 purpose for which it is used.
14 We are not seeking to quash or traverse this
15 search warrant or do anything in regard to the search
16 warrant, and in fact, quite the contrary. We offered
17 to use this without any testimony.
18 THE COURT: I was under the impression,
19 Mr. Shapiro, that your offer of proof before indicated
20 that there were some prior inconsistent statements --
21 four, I think you mentioned --
22 MR. SHAPIRO: That's correct.
23 THE COURT: -- in this affidavit that would be
24 inconsistent with the witness's testimony here in court.
25 Is that correct?
26 MR. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, some are inconsistent
27 with his statements in court. I believe in court that
28 he did testify that it was human blood, and I believe
0026
01 the affidavit -- I don't believe -- the affidavit says
02 S.I.D. personnel found it to be human blood. And we
03 will offer testimony from their own chemist that he did
04 not come to that conclusion.
05 So that, we would say, is a major question of
06 credibility with this witness and an out and out
07 misstatement under penalty of perjury to the court.
08 MS. CLARK: May I, Your Honor?
09 THE COURT: Yes.
10 MS. CLARK: No, it's not. It's actually not that.
11 This witness has testified consistently. He
12 believed it to be human blood when he was at the scene,
13 and in the affidavit it contains his belief that it was
14 human blood.
15 If he's wrong, if he was wrong then, and he
16 was wrong when he presented this affidavit as to what he
17 believed the scientific investigations person concluded
18 with respect to his testing, then he's consistent.
19 Maybe wrong, but consistent.
20 There is no impeachment contained in this
21 affidavit with respect to that point, and I once again
22 do reiterate that the point -- the state of mind that
23 this officer had at the time he was seeking to obtain
24 the warrant has no bearing on the determination of
25 whether or not exigent circumstances applied to permit
26 the entry without a warrant at the time that it was
27 made.
28 All of the inquiry that I know Mr. Shapiro
0027
01 intends to go into concerning this affidavit is
02 irrelevant to the circumstances that are confronting
03 this court and the issues that are being presented here
04 concerning the exigent circumstances, but at least with
05 respect to that one showing, it certainly is not even an
06 inconsistent prior statement.
07 THE COURT: The way I see it, Mr. Shapiro, is that
08 if in fact there is an inconsistent statement with
09 regard to something that the detective testified to
10 during the course of the proceeding, then that would be
11 admissible. But we're not going to create strawmen to
12 shoot down later that were not part of the testimony.
13 So the objection to this point is sustained.
14 MR. SHAPIRO: To that question?
15 THE COURT: Yes.
16 MR. SHAPIRO: May I ask another question?
17 THE COURT: Yes.
18 MR. SHAPIRO: Thank you.
19 May I just confer with Mr. Uelmen?
20 THE COURT: Yes.
21 (discussion between counsel, sotto voce.)
22 MR. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, the real question -- and
23 Mr. Uelmen has phrased it in these terms -- the real
24 issue for Your Honor to determine is whether Detective
25 Vannatter would lie in order to sustain a search.
26 And if we have evidence that he lied on the
27 search warrant in order to obtain that, that goes to his
28 credibility here as to whether or not he would lie to
0028
01 sustain a search.
02 THE COURT: Mr. Shapiro, I'm not going to go into
03 the -- what I agree with the prosecution would amount to
04 a traversal of the search warrant since the prosecution
05 has indicated that they are in fact not going to offer
06 any of the evidence that was recovered after its
07 execution.
08 MR. SHAPIRO: Thank you, Your Honor.
09 There is one other issue, and perhaps I will
10 just do it as offer of proof.
11 We would offer to ask this officer the
12 following: whether in the affidavit he submitted he
13 told --
14 MS. CLARK: Well, objection, Your Honor. I don't
15 see offer of proof is necessary.
16 Either counsel may ask the question of the
17 witness and it's a proper question or not, or not ask
18 the question, but I don't see what is the purpose of
19 making a record of offer of proof as to questions that
20 will not be posed.
21 THE COURT: Why don't you just ask the question,
22 Mr. Shapiro.
23 MR. SHAPIRO: Thank you, Your Honor.
24 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
25 Q Detective Vannatter, did you, in your
26 statement to the magistrate judge, under penalty of
27 perjury, indicate the following: "it was determined by
28 interview of Simpson's daughter and a friend, Brian
0029
01 Kaelin, Simpson had left on an unexpected flight to
02 Chicago during the early morning hours of June 13th,
03 1994, and was last seen at the residence at
04 approximately 2300 hours June 12th, 1994?"
05 A Yes, I did.
06 MR. SHAPIRO: Thank you, nothing further.
07 MS. CLARK: And there would be an objection to the
08 question and ask that the answer be stricken as being
09 irrelevant.
10 THE COURT: Overruled.
11 Ms. Clark, do you have any questions for the
12 detective?
13 MS. CLARK: No, I have no questions. Thank you,
14 Your Honor.
15 THE COURT: You may step down. Thank you.
16 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
17 MR. UELMEN: We would call Mr. Fung.
18 THE COURT: All right.
19 MS. CLARK: Your Honor, with respect to the
20 questioning that has already occurred, I would ask
21 counsel to give us offer of proof as to the relevance of
22 the testimony of this witness in light of the fact that
23 he has indicated, I believe, during the
24 cross-examination of Detective Vannatter that he intends
25 to prove that the criminalist could not come up with a
26 conclusion as to whether or not it was human or animal
27 blood. There is no relevance to that inquiry at this
28 time.
0030
01 THE COURT: Well, I'm not going to require offer of
02 proof at this point in time. They've indicated they
03 intend to call this witness, and I'll let you ask your
04 questions, at least initially, and see if we're in
05 relevant testimony.
06 MS. CLARK: Thank you, Your Honor.
07 MR. UELMEN: Do we need to summon him or is he
08 waiting in the hall?
09 MS. CLARK: No.
10 MR. UELMEN: Your Honor, we indicated two days ago
11 that we intended to call Mr. Fung as a witness and were
12 informed that he would be available. And, in fact, the
13 prosecution indicated that they were going to call
14 Mr. Fung as well.
15 MS. CLARK: That was the only representation I
16 remember was I indicated to counsel I may or may not
17 call Dennis Fung.
18 And as far as I know, the criminalist was
19 never under defense subpoena. And, if he had been, I
20 certainly would have arranged for him to be here and
21 assisted counsel in that regard. But I was not of the
22 impression that counsel wanted to call him.
23 In fact, I can't think of an admissible -- a
24 theory of admissibility for his testimony in any
25 event. But that's irrelevant.
26 THE COURT: Aside from the theory of admissibility,
27 I do recall that we did discuss this in chambers and so
28 I believe that I heard that discussion.
0031
01 MS. CLARK: Yes, but --
02 THE COURT: And I don't know that any specific
03 dates or times were mentioned, but my recollection is
04 that Mr. Uelmen asked you if Mr. Fung was going to be
05 available, and I believe you indicated that he would be.
06 And then, secondly, when I asked, I believe
07 yesterday, as to which witnesses were going to testify,
08 he was one of the names that you gave me as a witness
09 that you intended to call.
10 So I take it that Mr. Fung is not here in the
11 courthouse at this time?
12 MS. CLARK: He's not, but I can certainly make him
13 available immediately, and I will have him called
14 immediately, Your Honor.
15 As I understood -- what I intended to convey
16 was that I was tentative as to whether I would call
17 Mr. Fung, that when I was unsure --
18 THE COURT: I'm not faulting you or holding you to
19 anything based on that. I think it was an honest
20 misunderstanding and one apparently that we can easily
21 rectify.
22 MS. CLARK: Yes.
23 THE COURT: And so we will do that.
24 Do you have a witness that is present here
25 while we're waiting for the arrival of Mr. Fung?
26 MR. UELMEN: We can recall Mr. Kaelin, and we do
27 have two other witnesses.
28 THE COURT: Is Mr. Kaelin available here in the
0032
01 courthouse?
02 MS. CLARK: Yes, he is.
03 THE COURT: Then let's get Mr. Kaelin.
04 And can someone, on your behalf -- since you
05 have all the phone numbers and so forth -- contact the
06 crime lab and have Mr. Fung available?
07 MS. CLARK: yes, Your Honor, right away.
08 THE COURT: Thank you.
09 MS. CLARK: Mr. Kaelin IS apparently -- he's on the
10 elevator.
11 THE COURT: All right.
12 MS. CLARK: Thank you.
13 Yes, Your Honor. Mr. Fung is on his way.
14 THE COURT: Thank you.
15 MS. CLARK: He should be here very shortly. And
16 Mr. Kaelin is also on his way and will be here even more
17 shortly.
18 THE COURT: I don't know, those elevators.
19 Mr. Fung might get here first.
20 MS. CLARK: May as well take the stairs.
21 THE COURT: Who's ringing?
22 MS. CLARK: Sorry, Your Honor.
23 MR. HODGMAN: Your Honor?
24 THE COURT: Yes.
25 MR. HODGMAN: With the Court's permission, may I
26 use the bailiff's phone just for a moment while we're
27 waiting for the witness?
28 THE COURT: Yes.
0033
01 MR. HODGMAN: Thanks.
02 MS. CLARK: I apologize, Your Honor. I had given
03 the pager to an investigator to take numbers off of it,
04 and apparently he forgot to turn it back off.
05 THE COURT: Okay.
06 All right.
07 Mr. Kaelin, you've previously been sworn and
08 remain under oath. Please have a seat in the witness
09 stand. State and spell your name for the record.
10 THE WITNESS: Hi. Brian Kato Kaelin. B-r-i-a-n,
11 k-a-t-o, k-a-e-l-i-n.
12
13 BRIAN KATO KAELIN,
14 called as a witness by and on behalf of the defendant,
15 having been duly sworn, was examined and testified as
16 follows:
17 THE COURT: Thank you.
18 Mr. Uelmen.
19 MR. UELMEN: Thank you.
20
21 DIRECT EXAMINATION
22
23 BY MR. UELMEN:
24 Q Mr. Kaelin, returning to the morning of
25 Monday, June the 13th.
26 Were you awakened that morning by police
27 officers?
28 A Yes, I was.
0034
01 Q Can you tell us approximately what time they
02 woke you up?
03 A Between -- I think the -- approximately
04 between 5:00 and 6:00 a.m.
05 Q And where were you at that time?
06 A In bed.
07 Q And would you indicate on the chart where your
08 bedroom is located?
09 A Right there.
10 Q You're pointing to what is labeled "Kato's
11 room" on the chart?
12 A Yes.
13 Q All right. How many officers were at the
14 door when you woke up?
15 A four. Four officers.
16 Q Four officers.
17 Now, what's the first thing they said to you?
18 A Okay. There was banging at the door and I
19 was asleep and I was startled.
20 I said, "who's there?" They said, "the
21 police."
22 Q All right.
23 A That was the first words.
24 Q Did you then go to the door?
25 A Then I looked to make sure, and I just saw
26 four guys in suits, coat and tie, and I opened the
27 door. I put a shirt on and opened the door.
28 Q All right.
0035
01 And what's the first thing they said to you
02 after you opened the door?
03 A Um, I don't know of the exact order. What
04 was my name and do I live here. Um -- who else lives
05 here came up. And -- I don't know, I was shaking,
06 so --
07 Q Did they ask you any questions about the
08 whereabouts of Mr. Simpson?
09 A At some point it came up and I said Chicago.
10 Q All right. Was that in this initial
11 conversation at the door when they awoke you?
12 A I don't remember. There was conversation
13 where I said that, though.
14 Q All right. So the first time you were asked
15 where Mr. Simpson was, you told the officers he was in
16 Chicago.
17 A I said yes, he was in Chicago.
18 Q All right.
19 Did the officers ever indicate to you any
20 concern about a suicide or murder occurring on the
21 premises?
22 A Can you say that again?
23 Q Did the officers ever indicate to you any
24 concern about a suicide or a murder occurring on the
25 premises at Rockingham?
26 A No.
27 Q Did they ever indicate to you that they were
28 concerned about any injured persons on the premises?
0036
01 A No.
02 Q Did they enter your room?
03 A One officer entered my room.
04 Q Did they ask you about your clothing?
05 A Yes.
06 Q What did they ask you?
07 A Um, he said, "what did you wear yesterday?"
08 So I pointed out what I wore yesterday.
09 Q All right.
10 A And he looked at it.
11 Q Did he pick up the clothing and examine it?
12 A He picked up a pair of my shoes and examined
13 it.
14 Q All right. Did he look at the bottom of your
15 shoes?
16 A Yes.
17 Q At some point did he tell you to leave the
18 room?
19 MS. CLARK: Objection; this is a little bit
20 leading, Your Honor. This witness is on direct, as I
21 understand it.
22 THE COURT: Overruled as to that question.
23 You can answer the question.
24 THE WITNESS: Oh, say it again.
25 BY MR. UELMEN:
26 Q At some point did he ask you to leave the
27 room?
28 A Yes, at some point.
0037
01 Q At what point was that? How long had he been
02 in the room?
03 A Well, he was -- I was -- I remember saying I
04 thought O.J.'s plane had crashed or something and
05 something was wrong, and I was talking to him. And I
06 don't remember everything I was saying, but I think I
07 was rattling. And after talking to him, he asked me to
08 go out and I was with the other three guys.
09 Q All right.
10 And where did they take you then?
11 A You know, in my room, when you walk out --
12 Q Yes.
13 A -- okay, there's cement right there. I was
14 right under the door there talking to them.
15 Q All right.
16 And then did they take you to another part of
17 the house?
18 A Yes. After talking to me, I also pointed to
19 Arnelle's room. They asked me who else was here, and I
20 said, "O.J.'s daughter Arnelle lives over there." And
21 so I pointed to her door.
22 Q And then did they take you to another part of
23 the house?
24 A Yeah, after they got Arnelle.
25 Q All right. did Arnelle take some of the
26 officers into the house?
27 A I think so, because I don't have a key, so I
28 know I didn't open it, so someone did. I think so. I
0038
01 think she led them in the back doorway and I followed.
02 Q Now up to this point, had they informed you
03 why they were there or what they were investigating?
04 A No -- um, no.
05 Q Did you give them any further information
06 about Mr. Simpson's whereabouts?
07 A Just in Chicago. That's what I knew, he went
08 to the airport and went to Chicago.
09 Q Did they ask you when he had left for Chicago?
10 A I -- I think so. I don't remember. I think
11 I probably said it.
12 Q Do you recall what you said?
13 A That he took a limo to the airport to go to
14 Chicago.
15 Q Did they ask you any questions about the Ford
16 Bronco that was parked in front of the premises?
17 A When I was inside the house, they just asked
18 where the keys were for the Bronco, if there was an
19 extra set of keys. So I was looking for them and I
20 couldn't find them.
21 Q And at some point were you asked to leave the
22 premises at 360 north Rockingham?
23 A To wait outside on Ashford.
24 Q All right.
25 And what time did they ask you to do that?
26 A Approximately 7:30, 7:38 a.m.
27 Q Now, when you say "wait outside on Ashford,"
28 you mean they actually just asked you to stand out on
0039
01 the street?
02 A Well, I was led outside and -- yeah, they
03 asked me to kind of wait on Ashford. And they said I
04 was going to be taken to another station, that two
05 officers, two uniformed officers, were going to take me
06 down there, but it was for an interview.
07 Q And how were you dressed at that point?
08 A I don't know if I had my pajamas on or not
09 still. I might have. I think I had put my jeans
10 on. But I had a -- I know I had a blue shirt on,
11 blue --
12 Q Did they ever permit you to go back into your
13 room after they asked you to step out of the room?
14 A Yes.
15 Q And for what purpose?
16 A I think to put pants on.
17 Q And you were accompanied by an officer at that
18 time?
19 A I don't -- I don't remember. I don't
20 remember if I was or not. I think I was on my own.
21 I'm not positive.
22 Q Are there any windows in the back wall of your
23 room?
24 A The back wall of my bedroom, no. There's a
25 bathroom that has a window.
26 Q Would you point out to us where that bathroom
27 is.
28 A It would be right here.
0040
01 Q All right.
02 And could you describe that window.
03 A It's a window with a screen on it, and you
04 turn a little handle to open it up and it opens that
05 way.
06 THE COURT: Swings out?
07 THE WITNESS: It swings out.
08 BY MR. UELMEN:
09 Q Was the window open that evening?
10 A I usually don't have it open, so it probably
11 was not open.
12 Q You just turn a little crank and it opens it
13 up?
14 A Yeah. I only sometimes crack for a shower so
15 the windows don't steam.
16 Q And you leave the crank in the window?
17 A I leave the crank in the window.
18 Q Thank you.
19 MR. UELMEN: Nothing further.
20 THE COURT: Ms. Clark.
21 MS. CLARK: Thank you, Your Honor.
22
23 CROSS-EXAMINATION
24
25 BY MS. CLARK:
26 Q Good afternoon, Mr. Kaelin.
27 A Hi. Good afternoon.
28 Q Now, you got woken up by the officers at
0041
01 about -- what did you say, between 5:00 and 6:00 a.m.?
02 A Yes.
03 Q What time did you go to bed that night?
04 A I went to bed about 1:30 a.m.
05 Q So when they woke you up, you had maybe three
06 to four hours sleep?
07 A Yeah. About three or four hours sleep.
08 Q Were you pretty tired when they woke you up?
09 A Yes.
10 Q Would you say you were a little bit
11 disoriented when they woke you up?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And a little bit confused about what these
14 officers were doing here at your door at 5:30 to
15 6:00 a.m. in the morning?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Doesn't happen everyday, does it, sir?
18 A No, it doesn't happen everyday.
19 Q Thank goodness.
20 And when they woke you up and they said
21 "police" and started asking your name and whether you
22 lived there, were you a little bit taken off guard?
23 A Yes.
24 Q But they were asking you who else lived in
25 your guest unit. Is that what you understood when they
26 were asking you who else lives here?
27 A Um, I -- I think I said it was O.J.'s house
28 and I lived in the guest house, and I mentioned
0042
01 Arnelle's name who was living there also.
02 Q Now, you had a conversation -- let me ask you
03 this.
04 You pointed out Arnelle's unit at some point,
05 did you not?
06 A Yes, I did.
07 Q And some of the officers went over to that
08 unit, didn't they?
09 A Yes.
10 Q And one of the officers stayed with you; is
11 that right?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And while that officer stayed with you, he
14 asked you about whether anything unusual had happened
15 the night before, didn't he?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And when he asked you whether something had
18 happened the night before that was unusual, you told him
19 about the thumps, didn't you?
20 A Yes, I did.
21 Q And then you went on to recount for that
22 officer everything that had happened that night,
23 including seeing the limo driver out there waiting for
24 the defendant and seeing the defendant go to the
25 airport; is that right?
26 A Say the question again slower. At what
27 point?
28 Q I'm sorry. I do talk fast.
0043
01 You were telling him all the events that
02 happened that night; is that right?
03 A Right. There was -- two separate times so --
04 Q I know that.
05 So first you're talking about what happened
06 that night with this one officer standing by your guest
07 room; is that right?
08 A Right. I think that was also -- his name is
09 Mark.
10 Q Mark, okay.
11 And you were telling him what had happened --
12 A Yes.
13 Q -- The night before, June 12th?
14 A Yes.
15 Q And when you told him what happened, did you
16 tell him about the thumps?
17 A Yes, I did.
18 Q Did you tell him about being scared and
19 thinking it might be an earthquake or a prowler?
20 A Yes, I did.
21 Q Did you then tell him that after hearing those
22 thumps, at some point you went outside to go and check
23 on what had caused those noises?
24 A At a -- now, I don't know if it was mark that
25 time or not. It was a detective I told that to. I
26 don't --
27 Q Might you have told -- excuse me, let me
28 finish.
0044
01 Might you have told that to Mark as well?
02 A I might have.
03 Q Okay. And when you were telling that to
04 Mark, when you were describing what had happened to Mark
05 at that time, were you still kind of scared about what
06 had caused those noises?
07 A That night I was scared, the night, in the
08 sleep.
09 Q You mean --
10 A I was thinking about that noise pretty much
11 all night.
12 Q So when you went to bed that night, you were
13 still scared about the noises.
14 A Yeah. I mean, it was still -- I still wanted
15 to know what that was.
16 Q And when those officers woke you up, did that
17 make you concerned that maybe the noises you had heard
18 were related to them being there?
19 A You mean if they were doing the noise?
20 Q No.
21 A What?
22 Q That maybe they were there investigating what
23 caused the noises also, maybe they knew something about
24 that?
25 A Oh, I didn't think that.
26 Q You didn't put that together.
27 A No.
28 Q But anyway, Mark -- that detective stayed back
0045
01 with you at the guest room and you told him about the
02 noises; is that right?
03 A I can't remember positive, but I did tell the
04 story twice and so someone wrote down -- I don't know
05 which detective it was that wrote something down.
06 Q you told the story twice and you know that one
07 detective stayed with you while the others went with
08 Arnelle.
09 A When I first came out of my room?
10 Q Yes.
11 A Yes.
12 Q Okay.
13 And so you might have told that detective
14 about hearing the noises on your guest wall; is that
15 right?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Now, that bathroom window that you were
18 talking about, how big is it?
19 A It's -- see this desk? From about here to
20 the end here, and about the same complete style, but not
21 wooden, but it's the window. The same style,
22 rectangle.
23 Q It's a rectangle?
24 A So it's about a foot and three and a half
25 feet. It goes that way.
26 Q High. So about three and a half feet high
27 and a foot wide?
28 A Yes.
0046
01 Q And what side of the air conditioning unit is
02 that on?
03 A If the air conditioner is facing that way, where
04 the air would blow out, it would be on the right of it.
05 Q No. Let's look at it if you walk into your guest
06 house.
07 Actually, let's do it on the diagram.
08 In your unit, tell us where the bathroom would be
09 on this diagram, the defense diagram.
10 MS. CLARK: For the record, can the court see where
11 he is pointing to?
12 THE COURT: Yes.
13 MS. CLARK: He is pointing to the area where it says
14 "sink" and "toilet" off Kato's room.
15 Q Where would the window be?
16 A Right where you enter.
17 MS. CLARK: He has indicated a point just after entry
18 to the bathroom.
19 Q Where would the air conditioning unit be?
20 A Right here.
21 Q And you indicated you heard the thumps come from
22 where?
23 A This area here.
24 Q The air conditioning unit -- that would be to the
25 west side or east side of the air conditioning unit that
26 you told the officer you heard the thumps?
27 A The thumps I heard to this side, to the --
28 Q To the west side?
0047
01 A To the west side.
02 Q OKAY.
03 So that bathroom window was to the east of the
04 air conditioner, wasn't it?
05 A Yes.
06 Q And it was a narrow window?
07 A Yes.
08 Q Now, when you went inside and spoke to the other
09 detective, you were seated in the bar area, weren't you?
10 A Yes, I was.
11 Q And you told that detective about hearing the
12 thumps on the wall, didn't you?
13 A Yes, I did.
14 Q And you were pretty excited about everything that
15 was going on, including hearing the thumps the night
16 before, weren't you?
17 A I was excited about the thumps I heard?
18 Q And seeing --
19 A Everything, yes.
20 Q And do you recall telling that detective, at that
21 time when you were seated in the bar, about the defendant
22 being picked up by a limo that night; that he must -- that
23 you thought he must have overslept because he was waiting a
24 long time?
25 Do you remember telling him that?
26 A I think I told him the story of the whole night.
27 Q To the detective seated at the bar?
28 A At the bar.
0048
01 Q And to the best of your knowledge, as you were
02 telling that detective, you thought that the defendant was
03 in chicago?
04 A That he was in chicago, yes.
05 Q Was it the detective at the bar that asked to see
06 the keys to the bronco?
07 A I don't remember that.
08 Q You don't remember which one?
09 A It wasn't at the bar when they asked that.
10 Q Where were you?
11 A I was in the kitchen then.
12 Q Were you moving around the house pretty much
13 once you went inside?
14 A I mean, I know -- I think I put pants on at
15 one point; but I don't know when or I don't know -- I
16 remember going to the kitchen, and I remember the kids
17 came. It was a lot of confusion for me.
18 Q You felt pretty confused and pretty disoriented
19 that morning after having been woken up between 5 and 6 in
20 the morning; is that right?
21 A Yes.
22 And I was going to tell you about the kitchen.
23 Q You went into the kitchen at some point?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Was Arnelle there?
26 A Yes.
27 Q And you spoke to Arnelle at some point?
28 A At some point Arnelle came in the bar area, went
0049
01 back; and I believe that's when she heard the news. I can't
02 be positive, but it was -- just added to everything again.
03 Q It was a pretty confusing scene?
04 A Yes.
05 Q And pretty upsetting?
06 A Yes.
07 MS. CLARK: May I have a moment, your Honor?
08 THE COURT: Yes.
09 BY MS. CLARK:
10 Q Was it a police officer that told you about what
11 had happened to nicole brown?
12 A No.
13 Q Who was it that told you that?
14 A I had heard it from the area of the kitchen. And
15 Arnelle kind of screamed, was upset; and I heard that.
16 Q And you could not tell who was saying that?
17 A No.
18 Q Was it Arnelle?
19 A I don't know if it was repeated to her -- I can't
20 be positive of who said it to her, no.
21 Q But you heard it being said?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Was it by a male voice or a female voice?
24 A It was from her voice after she had heard it.
25 Q So you heard her reaction; you didn't hear what
26 was being told to her?
27 A Yes.
28 Q And from that you deduced that -- what had
0050
01 happened to nicole brown?
02 A Yes.
03 Q Now, you indicated that you saw the defendant
04 leave in a limo; is that right?
05 A O.J. left in a limo. Yes, I --
06 Q All right.
07 MR. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, I am going to interpose an
08 objection at this point.
09 THE COURT: Let me ask you one thing. Are you going
10 to be --
11 MR. SHAPIRO: You know what, let me just confer with
12 cocounsel for a minute.
13 MR. UELMEN: Your Honor, inasmuch as the purpose of
14 these proceedings is to determine whether Mr. Simpson
15 should be a defendant, we would object to the recurring
16 characterization by the prosecution of Mr. Simpson as the
17 defendant.
18 THE COURT: Well, whether or not he should be a
19 defendant is questionable. Right now he is the
20 defendant in this case. I don't see a problem with his
21 being referred to in that fashion.
22 MS. CLARK: Thank you, your Honor.
23 Q You knew he left in a limo that night; is that
24 right?
25 A Yes.
26 Q You did not, of your personal knowledge, see
27 him get on a plane for chicago?
28 A No.
0051
01 Q Now, Mr. Kaelin, you had been living there for
02 about six months as of the night these events occurred;
03 is that correct?
04 A Yes.
05 Q And were you able to have friends come over and
06 visit you in that unit?
07 A Yes.
08 Q And you were able to, in fact, have people
09 spend the night with you in that unit, weren't you?
10 A My choice, yes.
11 Q And you were able to use the pool facilities when
12 you wanted to, weren't you?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And you were also able to use the tennis court
15 when you wanted to?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And you were allowed to come and go as you
18 please?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Do you perform chores and odd jobs for the
21 defendant in return for being allowed to stay there?
22 A No. He never asked me to do anything. If he
23 said something, I would do it; but --
24 MR. SHAPIRO: We would object as beyond the scope of
25 direct, unless counsel is making Mr. Kaelin her witness
26 again, in which case the questions should not be leading.
27 THE COURT: Miss Clark?
28 MS. CLARK: That's true, your Honor.
0052
01 I will take him on direct.
02 THE COURT: All right.
03
04 DIRECT EXAMINATION
05
06 BY MS. CLARK:
07 Q And, Mr. Kaelin, did you -- did you perform any
08 chores that the defendant would ask you to perform?
09 A Can you say that again?
10 Q Yes.
11 If the defendant asked you to do things around
12 the house, would you do them?
13 A Yes. If he asked me, I would definitely do
14 something.
15 Q What sort of things did he ask you to do?
16 A He never asked me anything, really.
17 If I wanted to feed the dogs. If he said, "feed
18 the dogs," sure; But -- not paint the house or anything.
19 Q I don't mean that. That would be quite a house
20 to paint.
21 What else did you do around there for the
22 defendant?
23 A Really nothing. There is nothing he asked me to
24 do. Feed the dogs is about it.
25 Q That's all? Feed the dogs?
26 A And barely that.
27 Q And what?
28 A Barely even that. I kind of wanted to do that
0053
01 sometimes.
02 Q Did he ever ask you to watch the property for him
03 or stay on the property when he was gone?
04 A No.
05 Q Did he ever ask you to go and pick something
06 up at the store for him?
07 A No.
08 Well, gigi, the housekeeper, would ask me that
09 sometimes; and I would do it.
10 Q Did you do odd jobs around the house, sir?
11 A No.
12 Q No?
13 A Odd jobs?
14 Feeding the dogs?
15 Q Sure.
16 A Yeah. I would do that.
17 Q What other things would you do?
18 A I guess going to the store for gigi if she
19 needed something to be picked up.
20 I think that's about it.
21 Q Anything with respect to the laundry or dry
22 cleaning?
23 A I would do that, too; but my laundry.
24 Q Would you do anything for the defendant in that
25 regard -- pick it up for him from the dry cleaners if he
26 needed anything picked up?
27 A If he needed anything to be picked up, I would,
28 yes.
0054
01 Q Did you do any baby-sitting for the defendant at
02 any time?
03 A Watch the kids?
04 I would do that regardless, yes. if O.J. wanted
05 to golf, I volunteered to watch the kids. Sure.
06 Q Or take them to the movies?
07 A Sure, yes.
08 Q That would be part of taking care of the kids;
09 right?
10 A I would take them to a movie if they wanted to
11 go, sure.
12 MS. CLARK: Thank you.
13 I have nothing further.
14 THE COURT: Mr. Uelmen.
15
16 CROSS-EXAMINATION
17
18 BY MR. UELMEN:
19 Q Mr. Kaelin, you referred to the window in your
20 bathroom as a narrow window?
21 A Rectangle. It is rectangular shaped.
22 Q About 2 feet wide?
23 MS. CLARK: Objection. That misstates the testimony.
24 THE COURT: Restate the question.
25 BY MR. UELMEN:
26 Q I am asking you how wide was it.
27 A I would say about 14 inches wide and, I think,
28 about 3-1/2 feet in height.
0055
01 Q All right.
02 Is it wide enough so you could stick your head
03 out or your body out through the window?
04 A If you cranked the window enough in my room, I
05 think you could stick your head out.
06 There is a screen there.
07 Q Uh-huh.
08 Does the screen come off from inside?
09 A I don't know if it does.
10 I think the screen comes off, but I don't know
11 how it comes off.
12 Q From that window you can see into the walkway
13 area behind your room, can you not?
14 A If I am sticking my head out?
15 Q Yes.
16 A I have never done it.
17 I can see outside the window.
18 Q Can you see into the area where the air
19 conditioner is?
20 A I think you could.
21 Q Now, when the officers were questioning you
22 about what had happened the night before, you told them
23 about the thumps you heard on the wall between 10 and 11
24 p.m.; is that correct?
25 A Yes, I did.
26 Q Did you indicate you had heard any unusual noises
27 at all after 11 p.m.?
28 A Nothing unusual, no.
0056
01 Q All right.
02 And you were in your room, essentially, from 11
03 p.m. until the officers woke you up at 5 a.m., were you
04 not?
05 A About 11:15 I was in my room.
06 Q And there was nothing that led you to be alarmed
07 about any unusual events on the premises after 11:15, was
08 there?
09 A Besides the noise?
10 Q YES.
11 A No. That's it.
12 Q Did you ask Mr. Simpson's permission to use the
13 jacuzzi on the premises?
14 A Yes, I did. That night I did, yes.
15 Q Actually, that was the first time you had used
16 the jacuzzi -- that evening before -- correct?
17 A I swam in the pool before, and you can swim into
18 the jacuzzi and back; but I never actually sat down and had
19 the jets on.
20 Q And about how often would you say you fed the
21 dogs?
22 A Certain times, twice a week. You know. gigi,
23 the housekeeper, would sometimes just say, "do you have
24 time to feed the dogs?" I went "sure."
25 Q So it wasn't your regular responsibility to feed
26 the dogs?
27 A No, it wasn't my responsibility.
28 Q Just occasionally you were asked to do that?
0057
01 A Yeah.
02 Q By gigi?
03 A By gigi.
04 And sometimes I would just do it.
05 Q Essentially, would it be fair to say you were
06 treated like a member of the family?
07 A Yes.
08 Q And when you took the kids to the movies, was
09 that as a favor for Nicole?
10 A Favor?
11 I just liked doing it. I didn't think of it as
12 being a favor at all.
13 Q But nicole was the one who asked you to do that?
14 A Yeah. Nicole would ask me to do it or whoever
15 would ask me -- I don't remember exactly who would ask me,
16 but I would do it.
17 MR. UELMEN: Thank you.
18 THE COURT: Miss Clark, anything further?
19 MS. CLARK: One question, your Honor.
20
21 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
22
23 BY MS. CLARK:
24 Q Mr. Kaelin, you were not paying rent in terms
25 of money, were you?
26 A At Rockingham?
27 Q RIGHT.
28 A I was not.
0058
01 Q Didn't you feel like you owed it to the defendant
02 to do things around the house when asked in return for
03 that?
04 A Owed it?
05 I mean, I did not mind at all. I didn't think of
06 it as owing it. I just would do it.
07 Q You would do what he asked you to do?
08 A If he asked me to do something, I would do it.
09 MS. CLARK: I have nothing further.
10 THE COURT: Mr. Uelmen, do you want to have a last
11 word?
12 MR. UELMEN: No, I don't think so. The witness may be
13 excused.
14 THE COURT: Now, as to the motion he is excused. I
15 think you have reserved cross-examining him in regard to
16 the preliminary hearing in general.
17 Do you wish to do that at this time, or you want
18 to reserve it?
19 MR. UELMEN: I want to reserve it, with the court's
20 permission, please.
21 THE COURT: Thank you, Mr. Kaelin. You may step
22 down. You are subject to recall.
23 Please don't discuss your testimony with anyone.
24 MS. CLARK: I ask he not be excused with respect to
25 either the motion or preliminary hearing and remain on call
26 as to both.
27 THE COURT: All right.
28 MS. CLARK: Thank you.
0059
01 THE COURT: You haven't been excused at all; but you
02 may step down and, I guess, go back up those elevators to,
03 I guess, wherever you came from.
04 THE WITNESS: Gosh, great.
05 THE COURT: All right.
06 It is a quarter to 3. We are going to take the
07 afternoon break at this time until 3 o'clock.
08 (recess taken.)
09 THE COURT: All right. We are again on the record in
10 the case of people v. Simpson.
11 The defendant is present with counsel. The
12 people are represented.
13 MR. UELMEN: Thank you, your Honor.
14 The defense would like to call Arnelle Simpson.
15 THE COURT: Face the clerk, please, and raise your
16 right hand.
17 THE CLERK: You do solemnly swear that the testimony
18 you are about to give in the cause now pending before this
19 court shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but
20 the truth, so help you god?
21 THE WITNESS: I do.
22
23 Arnelle Simpson,
24 called as a witness by and on behalf of the defendant, was
25 examined and testified as follows:
26 THE CLERK: Please be seated.
27 State and spell your name, for the record.
28 THE WITNESS: Arnelle lorraine Simpson, A-r-n-e-l-l-e
0060
01 L-o-r-r-a-i-n-e. Simpson, S-i-m-p-s-o-n.
02 THE COURT: Thank you.
03 You may inquire.
04
05 DIRECT EXAMINATION
06
07 BY MR. UELMEN:
08 Q Miss Simpson, are you related to Mr. O.J.
09 Simpson?
10 A Yes, I am.
11 Q And how are you related?
12 A His daughter.
13 Q And how old are you?
14 A 25.
15 Q Now, do you live with the -- Mr. Simpson at the
16 family home on Rockingham?
17 A Yes, I do.
18 Q And how long have you lived there?
19 A For a year and four months.
20 Q And we have a chart to your left there that lays
21 out the premises.
22 Could you show us where on that chart your room
23 is located?
24 A Right here.
25 Q All right.
26 And you are pointing to the portion of the guest
27 quarters marked "Arnelle's room"?
28 A Yes.
0061
01 Q Now, were you in that room on the morning of
02 Monday, June 13?
03 A Yes, I was.
04 Q And were you awakened that morning by police
05 officers?
06 A Yes, I was.
07 Q Approximately what time of the morning did they
08 wake you up?
09 A It had to be about 5:30 in the morning.
10 Q 5:30?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And did the officers tell you why they were
13 there?
14 A No, they did not.
15 Q Could you recount for us what was said?
16 A They were knocking on my door. I went and opened
17 the door. There were two detectives standing there. They
18 asked me who I was. I told them I was Arnelle Simpson.
19 They said they had been outside, trying to get inside the
20 house; that they were ringing the bell. I said I didn't
21 hear them.
22 Then they asked me where my father was, and I
23 said that I believed he was out of town.
24 They said, "do you know how to get in touch with
25 him?"
26 I said, "yes, I do."
27 They said, "can you get in touch with him?"
28 I said, "yes, I can."
0062
01 Q Now, how were you dressed at this point?
02 A I was in pajamas.
03 Q And did you lead the officers then into the
04 house?
05 A Yes, I did. I walked outside my house, outside
06 the door of my room, and went to the front of the house,
07 turned off the alarm and walked in the house.
08 Q So you walked all the way around outside, around
09 the perimeter of the house?
10 A Yeah.
11 Q Do you want to indicate with the pointer the path
12 you followed?
13 A I walked from here, this way, into the front
14 door.
15 Q Indicating you crossed the rear patio area?
16 A Yes, right here.
17 Q And then around the --
18 a Uh-huh.
19 Q Did you go into the front door of the house or
20 the door to the kitchen?
21 A the front door.
22 Q The front door?
23 A Yeah.
24 Q And you disarmed the alarm?
25 A Yes.
26 Q And you led the officers into the kitchen?
27 A Into the kitchen.
28 Q How many officers were with you at that point?
0063
01 A There were two officers with me.
02 Q Now, when you entered the kitchen, did they ask
03 you to make a telephone call?
04 A Yeah, they did.
05 Q And who did you indicate you were going to call?
06 A I said I didn't know exactly where my father was,
07 but I could call somebody who would know where he was.
08 Q Who is that?
09 A Cathy Randa.
10 Q And who is Cathy Randa?
11 A My father's assistant.
12 Q Did you have Cathy's number right there?
13 A Not right there. I had to walk out of the
14 kitchen door to my car to get my phone book.
15 Q Where was your car parked?
16 A My car was parked right here.
17 Q And could you describe the car?
18 A It is a black Saab.
19 Q Now, you are indicating a little indented portion
20 of the driveway leading out to Rockingham?
21 A yeah; right here. My car was parked towards this
22 end.
23 Q And after you obtained your telephone or address
24 book, you went back into the kitchen?
25 A Yes, I did.
26 Q And did you place the telephone call?
27 A Yes, I did.
28 Q And do you recall about what time you placed that
0064
01 call?
02 A A quarter to 6.
03 Q And did you speak to Cathy Randa?
04 A Yes, I did.
05 Q Now, at this point were you aware of why the
06 officers were there?
07 A Yes, I was.
08 Q How did you become aware of that?
09 A When I was walking out to my car, one of the
10 officers followed me; and I had told him, "I need to know
11 what is going on." and he then told me that nicole was
12 murdered and somebody else was with her.
13 Q all right.
14 At any time up to this point, did any of the
15 officers indicate to you that they were concerned that a
16 suicide or murder might have taken place on the Rockingham
17 premises?
18 A No, they did not.
19 Q Did they indicate they were concerned that anyone
20 might be hurt or bleeding on the premises?
21 A No.
22 Q Did they ask you whether anything unusual had
23 happened the night before?
24 A No.
25 Q You placed the call to Cathy Randa?
26 A Yes, I did.
27 Q Would you describe the conversation you had with
28 her.
0065
01 A I called Cathy and I said, "Cathy, I have some
02 really horrible news"; and I started to cry and I handed the
03 phone over to the detective.
04 Q And the remaining conversation was with the
05 detective and Cathy?
06 A And Cathy.
07 Q At the conclusion of that conversation, did you
08 place any other telephone calls?
09 A Yes, I did.
10 Q Who else did you call?
11 A I called al Cowlings, A.C.
12 Q And did you at some point leave the kitchen area
13 to get dressed?
14 A Yes.
15 Q You went back to your room?
16 A I went back to my room. In fact, I made the
17 phone call from my room to A.C.
18 Q And did you at some point leave the premises to
19 retrieve the children?
20 A Yes, I did.
21 Q And where did you go to retrieve the children?
22 A I went down to the police station to pick up the
23 kids.
24 Q And you brought them back to the premises?
25 A Brought them immediately back to the house.
26 Q At any point, then, in this process, did you
27 place a call to Nicole's mother?
28 A Yes, I did.
0066
01 Q And did you tell her the news?
02 A I attempted to tell her, and then the detective
03 ended up telling her.
04 Q Now, at some point were you asked to leave the
05 premises at 360 north Rockingham?
06 A Yes, I was.
07 Q Do you recall about what time that was?
08 A It had to have been around 7:15, 7:30.
09 Q So about 7:15 to 7:30, you had already retrieved
10 the children and brought them back to the premises?
11 A Right.
12 Q And the officers at that point asked you to
13 leave?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Now, at the time the officers arrived at --
16 between 5 and 5:30 in the morning, was anyone else on the
17 premises other than yourself and Kato Kaelin?
18 A No.
19 Q Is there a maid who lives on the premises?
20 A Yes, there is.
21 Q And what is her name?
22 A Gigi.
23 Q And gigi was not on the premises?
24 A No, she was not.
25 Q And why is that?
26 A she has the weekends off.
27 Q Every weekend?
28 A So far, yes.
0067
01 Q And did you explain that to the officers?
02 A I believe I did, yes.
03 Q I believe -- you had returned to the premises
04 late the night before?
05 A Yes. I did.
06 Q And where had you been?
07 A At the movies.
08 Q And about what time did you get back?
09 A About 1 o'clock.
10 Q And you were asleep, then, from 1 o'clock until
11 the officers woke you up?
12 A Yes, I was.
13 Q all right.
14 Anything that caused you concern about what was
15 going on on the premises during that entire period?
16 A Huh-uh, no.
17 Q You were unaware of any strange noises or any
18 strange occurrences?
19 A No.
20 Q At any time did you tell the officers that they
21 had your permission to search the premises or to seize any
22 property on the premises?
23 A No, I did not.
24 Q At any point did any officer ask you if he could
25 take any item of property from the premises?
26 A No.
27 Q How about any documents, letters, envelopes,
28 anything of that nature?
0068
01 A Yeah. At one time the officer had asked me if
02 they could take an envelope that he had written on, and I
03 said "no" because it was a bill of mine.
04 Q And that was in the kitchen?
05 A Yes, it was in the kitchen.
06 Q Do you recall which officer that was?
07 A Lange, officer Lange.
08 MR. UELMEN: Thank you.
09 Nothing further.
10 THE COURT: Miss Clark.
11
12 CROSS-EXAMINATION
13
14 BY MS. CLARK:
15 Q Good afternoon, Miss Simpson.
16 On the night of June the 12th, did you go out at
17 some point that night?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Were you staying full time at the Rockingham
20 residence at that time?
21 A Yes, I was.
22 Q What time did you go out?
23 A I had been out all day. I had left, oh, at
24 around 10:30 and had returned at around 1.
25 Q You left at 10:30 in the morning?
26 A Yes.
27 Q And you got back at 1 in the morning?
28 A Yes.
0069
01 Q And you had not been back in the house that
02 entire time?
03 A Yes, I had.
04 Q When?
05 A At around 11:30.
06 Q In the morning or at night?
07 A Morning.
08 Q And you came back at 11:30 for what purpose?
09 A I had gone to church, and I came home to change.
10 Q OKAY.
11 And you changed clothes and left again?
12 A Yeah.
13 Q At what time?
14 A At around 12:30.
15 Q And then did you come back to the house again
16 between 12:30 p.m. and 1 a.m.?
17 A No, I did not.
18 Q So you were out that entire time?
19 A Yes.
20 Q You drive a black Saab?
21 A Yes.
22 Q When you came home at 1 in the morning -- did you
23 drive that day when you went out?
24 A Yes, I did.
25 Q And when you came back, did you park it in the
26 driveway?
27 A Yes, I did.
28 Q Where did you park it?
0070
01 A Right here.
02 Q You are showing us on the defense diagram?
03 A Yes.
04 Q And you pointed to the area that -- just below
05 that area is written "driveway" on the Rockingham side of
06 the residence?
07 A Yes.
08 Q Now, when the officers first came to your door,
09 they asked you where your father was; is that right?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And you indicated to them, "I believe he is out
12 of town"?
13 A Yes.
14 Q You were unsure then?
15 A No.
16 Q You told them, "I believe he is out of town"?
17 A "I believe he is out of town."
18 I knew he was gone, but I just didn't know where
19 he was out of town.
20 Q Did you know when he had left?
21 A Yes, I did.
22 Q Did you tell them that?
23 A No, I did not.
24 Q Did you know when he was due back?
25 A No, I did not.
26 Q Did you know where he was staying?
27 A No, I did not.
28 Q And when they were asking you about your father's
0071
01 whereabouts, you were, I assume, concerned?
02 A Yes, I was.
03 Q And so you wanted to, I assume, find out where he
04 was?
05 A Yes.
06 Q And so you let the officers in so you could find
07 that out and perhaps get their help, if needed, right?
08 A Yes.
09 Q And in order to do that, you had to disarm the
10 alarm because it was set?
11 A Yes.
12 Q When you went into the house, were there any
13 lights on in the house?
14 A I don't recall.
15 Q And the officers asked you to show them where the
16 maid's room was?
17 A I don't recall that.
18 Q Do you recall them asking you about the maid when
19 they came in?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Do you recall them asking whether she was all
22 right or where she stayed, in what room she slept?
23 A No.
24 Q Do you recall showing them where she slept?
25 A No.
26 Q Is it you don't recall; it might have happened,
27 but you no longer remember?
28 A I don't recall doing that, no.
0072
01 Q Is it a fact that the maid's bedroom is off the
02 kitchen?
03 A Yes.
04 Q And do you recall the officers asking you whether
05 that bedroom was the maid's room?
06 A No.
07 Q You don't remember anything about that?
08 A No.
09 Q Do you recall telling the officers that you had
10 been out all night at the movies and you just got back
11 about 1 a.m.?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Now, you said that you explained to the officers
14 that the maid has weekends off?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Was that when you were in the house when they
17 were asking you about where the maid was?
18 A No. That's -- when I was walking from my room,
19 inside the house, they had asked me, "does anybody else
20 live here?"
21 Q And you said, "yes. The maid does"?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And when you got into the house, did they ask
24 where she was at that time?
25 A No. They asked me outside.
26 They had said, "does anybody live here?"
27 I said "yes."
28 They said "who?"
0073
01 I said "gigi."
02 They asked me, "is she here?"
03 And I said "no."
04 Q Were you in the house at that point?
05 A No.
06 Q You were on your way into the house?
07 A Yes.
08 Q You went to pick up the children at the police
09 station?
10 A Yes.
11 Q How far away was that from the Rockingham
12 address?
13 A Hmm.
14 We live in Brentwood; so -- it was in
15 Santa Monica. Maybe four miles away.
16 Q Four miles?
17 A Yeah.
18 I am estimating. I don't know really how far it
19 is.
20 Q What time did you finally go to sleep the night
21 before?
22 You got home at 1 a.m. on June 13. What time did
23 you go to sleep?
24 A Maybe around 1:30.
25 Q And they woke you up just four hours later?
26 A Yeah.
27 Q Were you a little bit tired when they woke you
28 up?
0074
01 A Yeah.
02 Q Were you a little bit confused, seeing police
03 officers at your door?
04 A Yes.
05 Q Feel a little bit frazzled at seeing them and
06 hearing what might be bad news?
07 A Yeah.
08 Q Before you heard it?
09 A Yeah.
10 MS. CLARK: Thank you.
11 I have nothing further.
12 THE COURT: Mr. Uelmen, anything further?
13 MR. UELMEN: Nothing further, your Honor.
14 THE COURT: Thank you, Miss Simpson. You may step
15 down. Please do not discuss your testimony with anyone.
16 MR. UELMEN: Defense at this time would like to call
17 Cathy Randa.
18 THE COURT: Face the clerk, please, and raise your
19 right hand.
20 THE CLERK: You do solemnly swear that the testimony
21 you are about to give in the cause now pending before this
22 court shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but
23 the truth, so help you god?
24 THE WITNESS: I do.
25
26 Cathy Randa,
27 called as a witness by and on behalf of the defendant, was
28 examined and testified as follows:
0075
01 THE CLERK: Please be seated.
02 State and spell your name, for the record.
03 THE WITNESS: Cathy, with a "C," Randa, R-a-n-d-a.
04 THE COURT: You may inquire.
05
06 DIRECT EXAMINATION
07
08 BY MR. UELMEN:
09 Q Miss Randa, are you employed by Mr. O.J. Simpson?
10 A Yes, I am.
11 Q In what capacity?
12 A I am his administrative assistant.
13 Q And how long have you been employed as his
14 administrative assistant?
15 A Almost 20 years.
16 Q And do your responsibilities include his
17 scheduling and arranging for his travel?
18 A Yes.
19 Q And in what city do you reside?
20 A North hollywood, California.
21 Q Now, were you at home on the morning of June 13,
22 1994?
23 A Yes, I was.
24 Q And did you receive a telephone call that
25 morning?
26 A I did.
27 Q And what time did that telephone call come?
28 A Approximately 5:45.
0076
01 Q Now, are you certain of that time?
02 A Yes.
03 Q Why are you certain?
04 A Because as I heard the phone ring, as I was
05 running to the phone, I turned the light on; and after
06 picking up the phone, I could see the clock.
07 Q I take it it is unusual to get a call that early
08 in the morning?
09 A Very unusual.
10 Q And who was calling you?
11 A Mr. Simpson's daughter Arnelle.
12 Q And what did she say to you?
13 A Well, she was quite hysterical and she just said,
14 "Cathy, a detective wants to talk to you." A detective
15 then got on the phone with me.
16 Q And did the detective tell you why he was
17 calling?
18 A No.
19 Q What did he tell you?
20 A He asked if I knew where Mr. Simpson could be
21 reached.
22 Q And what did you tell him?
23 A I asked him if the children were okay, and he
24 didn't respond. And I asked again, and he didn't respond.
25 And I continued to ask, and he finally said the children
26 were fine but he must reach Mr. Simpson immediately.
27 Q And what did you then tell him?
28 A I then gave him the phone number to the hotel in
0077
01 chicago where Mr. Simpson was on a business trip.
02 Q Now, is this a business trip that had been
03 arranged in advance?
04 A Yes.
05 Q How far in advance?
06 A Approximately two months.
07 Q Two months before?
08 A Yes.
09 Q And was this business related to his association
10 with the hertz corp.?
11 A Yes, it was.
12 Q And did you give the detective the telephone
13 number where Mr. Simpson could be reached in chicago?
14 A I did.
15 Q And was that the end of the conversation?
16 A He said -- he promised he would call me back.
17 Q And did he call you back?
18 A No.
19 Q Did you receive another telephone call shortly
20 thereafter?
21 A I did.
22 Q And who was that call from?
23 A Mr. Simpson.
24 Q Can you tell us what time that call came?
25 A That was within about five minutes.
26 Q And did Mr. Simpson indicate that he had
27 spoken --
28 MS. CLARK: Objection. Hearsay.
0078
01 THE COURT: Sustained.
02 BY MR. UELMEN:
03 Q What time did you complete your telephone
04 conversation with Mr. Simpson?
05 A I would say two minutes. It was very brief.
06 Q It was still prior to 6 o'clock?
07 A Yes.
08 MR. UELMEN: Thank you.
09 Nothing further.
10 THE COURT: Miss Clark.
11 MS. CLARK: Your Honor, may I have a moment, please?
12 THE COURT: Yes.
13 MS. CLARK: Thank you, your Honor.
14 We have no questions of this witness.
15 THE COURT: All right.
16 Thank you very much. Please do not discuss your
17 testimony with anyone.
18 Mr. Uelmen.
19 MR. UELMEN: We would like to call Mr. Fung.
20 THE COURT: I assume he has arrived.
21 MS. CLARK: Yes, he has, your Honor.
22 As to this witness, though, we would renew our
23 request, under penal code section 866, for an offer of
24 proof.
25 I believe if all he is going to be offered for is
26 what was earlier indicated by counsel, there is nothing
27 relevant in his testimony.
28 THE COURT: I believe 866 relates to presenting an
0079
01 affirmative defense at a preliminary hearing. It does not
02 apply, I believe, to a 1538.5 motion affirmative evidence.
03 But what is the nature of the testimony?
04 MR. UELMEN: To show the nature of the investigative
05 activity that was taking place at the premises and at what
06 time that activity was taking place.
07 THE COURT: And how does that relate to the issues in
08 this case, do you believe?
09 MR. UELMEN: Well, your Honor, essentially, our
10 position is the officers were conducting a search of the
11 premises prior to the time they had obtained a warrant.
12 THE COURT: All right.
13 Well, we will just -- I mean, I don't think that
14 is really totally in issue although I think their
15 motivation is in issue, apparently.
16 Are you saying somehow Mr. Fung is going to --
17 his testimony is somehow going to bear upon the existence
18 or nonexistence of exigent circumstances at the time they
19 entered the location?
20 MR. UELMEN: No, your honor.
21 It is going to relate to the purpose of the
22 actual invasion of the premises, which was to collect
23 evidence of criminal activity, and to describe the nature
24 of the activity he was engaged in in terms of collecting
25 evidence.
26 THE COURT: Well, there was evidence elicited from
27 detective Vannatter with regard to calling criminalists,
28 waiting for criminalists to arrive and something about a
0080
01 presumptive test done on, I think it was, the stain on the
02 bronco. So it seems to me it might generally be relevant
03 to the issues; so I will allow you to call him.
04 MR. UELMEN: Thank you.
05 THE COURT: Face the clerk and raise your right hand,
06 sir.
07 THE CLERK: You do solemnly swear that the testimony
08 you are about to give in the cause now pending before this
09 court shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but
10 the truth, so help you god?
11 THE WITNESS: I do.
12
13 Dennis Fung,
14 called as a witness by and on behalf of the defendant, was
15 examined and testified as follows:
16 THE CLERK: Will you be seated.
17 State and spell your name, for the record.
18 THE WITNESS: My name is Dennis Fung, d-e-n-n-i-s
19 F-u-n-g.
20 THE COURT: You may inquire.
21 MR. UELMEN: Thank you, your Honor.
22
23 DIRECT EXAMINATION
24
25 BY MR. UELMEN:
26 Q Mr. Fung, can you tell us your occupation?
27 A I am a criminalist.
28 Q And by whom are you employed?
0081
01 A I am employed by the city of Los Angeles,
02 Los Angeles police department.
03 Q all right.
04 And could you tell us what a criminalist is?
05 A A criminalist is somebody who collects evidence,
06 analyzes it and presents his findings in a court of law.
07 Q Now, were you called on June 13 to come to the
08 premises at 360 north Rockingham?
09 A If I may refer to my notes.
10 Q You may.
11 A June 13. Yes, I was.
12 Q Could you tell us what time you received the call
13 to report to those premises?
14 A I received a call at approximately 5:30 in the
15 morning.
16 Q all right.
17 And how long did it take you to get to the
18 premises at Rockingham?
19 A I arrived at the scene at approximately 7:10 that
20 morning.
21 Q all right.
22 Now, had you previously been to any other crime
23 scene that morning?
24 A No.
25 Q So, actually, the first scene you were called to
26 on June 13 was Mr. Simpson's residence at Rockingham; is
27 that correct?
28 A Yes.
0082
01 Q Did you later go to visit the premises on Bundy?
02 A Yes, I did.
03 Q That was after you had completed your work at the
04 premises at Rockingham; is that correct?
05 A The entire scene at Rockingham was not completed
06 before I went to Bundy.
07 Q I see.
08 So there was continuing criminalist activity
09 going on at Rockingham at the time you left to go to Bundy?
10 A No. I completed the outdoor portion of the crime
11 scene at Rockingham and then proceeded on to the Bundy
12 location.
13 Q All right.
14 How long were you on the premises at Rockingham
15 before you left?
16 A Roughly three hours.
17 Q And the activity in which you were engaged
18 included the collection of swatches in order to examine
19 stains, red stains; is that correct?
20 A Yes. That's part of the collection, yes.
21 Q And did you also recover a glove from the area to
22 the south of the residence?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Now, as a criminalist are you aware of any test
25 that can be done at the scene to ascertain whether a
26 particular stain is human blood?
27 MS. CLARK: Objection. Irrelevant.
28 THE COURT: Overruled.
0083
01 THE WITNESS: We do not do human blood tests in our
02 department at the scene.
03 BY MR. UELMEN:
04 Q Where are those tests conducted?
05 A That is done back at the laboratory, by the
06 serology unit.
07 Q And how long does it ordinarily take to
08 accomplish one of those tests?
09 A I have never worked in the serology unit; so I
10 can't really give you a good estimation.
11 Q Were you aware of any such tests being completed
12 with respect to any of the evidence you collected on the
13 morning of June 13, prior to 10:45 in the morning?
14 A Could you repeat the question?
15 Q Were you aware of any such tests to determine the
16 presence of human blood being conducted with respect to any
17 of the evidence you collected on the premises at Rockingham
18 avenue on the morning of June 13?
19 A No, I was not.
20 MR. UELMEN: Thank you, sir.
21 Nothing further.
22 THE COURT: Miss Clark.
23
24 CROSS-EXAMINATION
25
26 BY MS. CLARK:
27 Q Mr. Fung, what test did you perform on the
28 bloodstains at 360 Rockingham avenue?
0084
01 A I performed a presumptive test for blood using
02 the reagents phenolphthalein and hydrogen peroxide.
03 Q And what, if any, result does that test give you
04 with respect to stains that may or may not be blood?
05 A That test is a presumptive test, meaning that it
06 can eliminate a suspected stain of being blood; and it is a
07 good indication, if it is positive, that the stain is
08 blood.
09 Q And did you perform such tests at the request of
10 detective Vannatter at 360 Rockingham on the morning of
11 June 13, 1994?
12 A Yes, I did.
13 Q Did you do so with respect to a white ford bronco
14 located there?
15 A Yes.
16 Q And with respect to blood drops on a driveway
17 located there?
18 A Yes.
19 Q And with respect to a glove found at the south
20 side of the property there?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And your results were?
23 A Those tests came back indicating the presence of
24 blood.
25 Q Positive for blood?
26 A Yes.
27 Q And did you indicate those results to detective
28 Vannatter?
0085
01 A Yes, I did.
02 MS. CLARK: I have nothing further.
03 THE COURT: Mr. Uelmen.
04
05 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
06
07 BY MR. UELMEN:
08 Q I am a little bit confused.
09 Tell us again what a presumptive test tells you.
10 A A presumptive test can eliminate whether a
11 suspected stain is blood or not; and it can -- it is a good
12 indication whether a stain is blood, but it is not a
13 confirmation. It is not 100 percent infallible.
14
15
0086
01 Q In other words, other substances than blood
02 may give you a positive reaction to this test?
03 A There are a few substances reported in the
04 literature that will give a false positive, yes.
05 Q All right.
06 So when you say the test is positive for
07 blood, you're not telling us that the test has indicated
08 to you that the substance is in fact blood; is that
09 correct?
10 MS. CLARK: Objection, Your Honor. This is
11 irrelevant.
12 I went into this witness's -- the result that
13 he obtained in order to inquire into detective
14 Vannatter's state of mind and good faith belief that
15 there was blood determined to be on the surfaces
16 tested.
17 The reliability of the test is a matter for
18 later testimony, I'm sure, and cross-examination would
19 be appropriate at that time. At this point, we're
20 inquiring into the officer's state of mind and that's
21 all.
22 THE COURT: Do you expect to go at length into this
23 at this point?
24 MR. UELMEN: No, Your Honor.
25 THE COURT: All right.
26 The objection is overruled.
27 BY MR. UELMEN:
28 Q The results of presumptive tests were not,
0087
01 then, quote, positive for blood, were they?
02 A They are an indication that blood may be
03 present.
04 Q You indicated that you performed a presumptive
05 test of this nature on a Ford Bronco automobile?
06 A Yes.
07 Q Now was your examination limited to the
08 exterior of the Ford Bronco?
09 A On June 13th, it was.
10 Q All right.
11 And how many stains on the Ford Bronco did you
12 test?
13 A I believe -- um, one or two. I don't recall.
14 Q One or two?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Would you check your records to see whether it
17 was one or two.
18 A My notes indicate that it was one.
19 Q Thank you, sir.
20 THE COURT: Ms. Clark, anything further?
21 MS. CLARK: One question, Your Honor, if I may.
22
23 RECROSS-EXAMINATION
24
25 BY MS. CLARK:
26 Q When you indicated that there were other
27 substances that may test positive for blood that are not
28 blood --
0088
01 A Yes.
02 Q -- What are those?
03 A There are vegetable compounds that will give a
04 false positive and there are some other chemicals such
05 as permanganate and dichromate that may also give a
06 false positive.
07 Q What are those chemicals?
08 A They're --
09 Q Let me ask you a different question, sir.
10 Are those common household chemicals?
11 A Normally not, no.
12 MS. CLARK: Thank you, I have nothing further.
13 THE COURT: Mr. Uelmen, anything further?
14 MR. UELMEN: Nothing further.
15 THE COURT: Thank you, Mr. Fung. You may step
16 down. Please do not discuss your testimony with anyone
17 but the lawyers.
18 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honor.
19 THE COURT: Mr. Uelmen, do you have additional
20 evidence you intend to present with regard to the
21 motion?
22 MR. UELMEN: That completes our evidence for the
23 motion, Your Honor.
24 THE COURT: Ms. Clark, do you wish to present some
25 rebuttal evidence with regard to the motion?
26 MS. CLARK: No, Your Honor, the people would -- are
27 ready for argument.
28 THE COURT: All right.
0089
01 MS. CLARK: We'd ask the court to receive the
02 exhibits marked pursuant to this hearing.
03 THE COURT: All right.
04 Let's see -- I don't believe you marked any
05 exhibits with regard to this hearing, although we do
06 have 'A' through 'H' that have been marked by the
07 defense.
08 There was reference to other exhibits that
09 have been marked with regard to the preliminary hearing
10 itself.
11 MS. CLARK: yes. Nothing freshly marked. I
12 stand corrected. Thank you, Your Honor.
13 I'd ask they be admitted to the extent
14 referred to by the people as to this hearing as well
15 then.
16 THE COURT: And, Mr. Uelmen, are you moving for the
17 receipt of the defense exhibits?
18 MR. UELMEN: 'A' through 'H' yes, Your Honor.
19 THE COURT: All right.
20 Is there any objection to the receipt of any
21 of the defense exhibits?
22 MS. CLARK: Yes. There would be an objection to
23 Defendant's 'E'. I still don't see the relevance of
24 that. Those were notes taken by detective Fuhrman.
25 With respect to the search warrant affidavit,
26 again, Your Honor, the people renew their objection. I
27 think that the court had indicated it was not going to
28 receive that.
0090
01 And with respect to 'G', Defendant's 'G', the
02 three vehicle reports concerning the Bronco, those are
03 hearsay. No adequate foundation was laid for their
04 receipt, nor was any theory of relevance, I think, ever
05 demonstrated by the defense to justify their receipt.
06 And the rest are -- with regard to all the
07 photographs, the people have no objection.
08 THE COURT: All right.
09 Mr. Uelmen, do you wish to be heard with
10 regard to 'E', 'G' and 'H'?
11 With regard to 'H', the court has already made
12 a ruling. Unless you have something new to add, I
13 think the record -- your record is clear that you felt
14 that that was admissible. That's the search warrant
15 affidavit.
16 MR. UELMEN: Yes. I believe there was a question
17 that was permitted with respect to the representation in
18 the affidavit that the trip was unexpected, so to that
19 extent we believe the affidavit itself is admissible.
20 With respect to 'E', the relevance of those
21 notes, of course, is that they abruptly end when the
22 detective left the premises at Bundy and to show that no
23 contemporaneous record was made of any of the events
24 that he was describing at the Rockingham premises.
25 With respect to the vehicle impound reports,
26 the reference to the coffee stains was contained in G-2,
27 I believe.
28 THE COURT: All right.
0091
01 With regard to --
02 MR. UELMEN: And G-1 also indicates the time of the
03 impound of the Bronco as being 7:30 in the morning.
04 THE COURT: All right.
05 Let me take them one at a time.
06 The search warrant affidavit, the court
07 doesn't feel that that -- the grounds have been
08 established to admit the entire affidavit, so the ruling
09 stands as to that.
10 With regard to detective Fuhrman's notes,
11 apparently there was testimony that he didn't take any
12 notes beyond the time that he left the first location.
13 And, therefore, I don't feel that that then makes what
14 he did write down at the first location admissible.
15 The fact that he didn't take additional notes is part of
16 the record, so I don't think that 'E' should come in.
17 With regard to G-1, -2 and -3, there was some
18 testimony about a coffee stain, and apparently some
19 testimony about somebody from the media placing their
20 coffee cup down on the Bronco and spilling it.
21 But, nonetheless, there was no foundation
22 established for G-1, -2 or -3 as to who made them, when
23 they were made and the accuracy of the information
24 contained in them.
25 In the absence of that foundation -- and the
26 people have raised that foundational objection -- the
27 items are hearsay, and so 'E', G-1, -2 and -3 and 'H'
28 would not be received.
0092
01 Now, with regard to the People's exhibits, you
02 asked that they be admitted to the extent that they were
03 utilized in the hearing on the motion, and my
04 recollection with regard to that is that there were
05 photos of the Bronco that were shown.
06 I think with regard to the diagram, you mainly
07 used the diagram that the defense prepared. And there
08 was some photos of the driveway area and the house and
09 photos of the glove and that pathway area.
10 I don't recall, just off the top of my head,
11 which numbered exhibits -- which People's numbered
12 exhibits those were.
13 MS. CLARK: Was the court asking for my assistance
14 in that?
15 THE COURT: If you happen to have that information.
16 MS. CLARK: I do. I believe it's 6 and 8 and 9,
17 but I can confirm that right now, Your Honor.
18 THE COURT: Okay.
19 MS. CLARK: That's right, 6, 8 and 9.
20 THE COURT: And with reference to the motion then,
21 Mr. Uelmen, are you going to be speaking to the motion?
22 MR. UELMEN: Yes, Your Honor.
23 THE COURT: All right.
24 Does the defense have any objection to the
25 receipt of People's 6, 8 and 9, as it relates to the
26 motion?
27 MR. UELMEN: No objection.
28 THE COURT: All right.
0093
01 Then those items would be received with regard
02 to the motion.
03 It is the People's burden to justify, since
04 we're acting in the absence of a search warrant.
05 Do you wish to be heard at this time,
06 Ms. Clark?
07 MS. CLARK: Your Honor, although it is the People's
08 burden, it is the defendant's motion, and as the moving
09 party I believe they are entitled to be heard first.
10 THE COURT: All right.
11 Mr. Uelmen, do you care to be heard at this
12 time?
13 MR. UELMEN: Yes, Your Honor.
14 Your Honor, I think a good starting point for
15 this motion is with the Fourth Amendment itself, because
16 essentially that's what this motion is all about. It's
17 about the right of the people to be secure in their
18 persons, houses, papers and effects against unreasonable
19 searches and seizures, a right that shall not be
20 violated, and no warrant shall issue but upon probable
21 cause supported by oath or affirmation and particularly
22 describing the place to be searched and the persons or
23 things to be seized.
24 I think what we're confronting here is police
25 officers who have the Fourth Amendment backwards, who
26 believe in conducting the search first and then
27 obtaining a warrant.
28 It's important to put this into the context of
0094
01 the search of a private family home where the cases
02 uniformly recognize that the Fourth Amendment protection
03 is the strongest and the discretion of the officers is
04 the most limited.
05 I don't believe there's any serious dispute at
06 this point, although the prosecution did assert in their
07 motion that the area of the premises at 360 north
08 Rockingham were some sort of common entryway for
09 multiple dwellers in the premises.
10 I think the evidence quite clearly shows that
11 the entire area behind the walls and fences of this home
12 were within the area that is traditionally defined as
13 the curtilage of a home, and as Oliver versus United
14 States made quite clear, at common law the curtilage was
15 the area to which extends the intimate activity
16 associated with the sanctity of a man's home and the
17 privacy of life, and therefore has been considered part
18 of the home itself for Fourth Amendment purposes.
19 And so the courts have extended Fourth
20 Amendment protection to the curtilage, and they have
21 defined the curtilage as did the common law by reference
22 to factors that determine whether an individual
23 reasonably may expect that an area immediately adjacent
24 to the home will remain private.
25 Every iota of the testimony that you have
26 heard confirms the reasonable expectation of Mr. Simpson
27 that these premises would remain private, including the
28 maintenance of electronically controlled gates and the
0095
01 surrounding of the entire perimeter by a wall five and a
02 half feet high and a fence that is even higher on the
03 boundary between the premises and the neighboring
04 residential premises.
05 Now, there are some limited exceptions to the
06 necessity of probable cause and a warrant before an
07 entry is made into protected premises, and it does
08 appear that the exception upon which the prosecution is
09 placing most reliance is the exception for exigent
10 circumstances or emergencies.
11 It's important, of course, to note that the
12 prosecution bears the burden of proving that they came
13 within this exception with respect to the investigative
14 activity that was conducted at the premises on the
15 morning of June the 13th.
16 The exception for emergencies or exigent
17 circumstances is a very, very limited one. It is
18 limited to situations in which there is an imminent
19 threat, and the kind of entry it permits is limited by
20 the threat that is presented.
21 In this case, what is being urged is an
22 extension of the emergency or exigent circumstances
23 exception beyond any which has been ever recognized in
24 any reported case in the courts of California, or the
25 Federal courts for that matter.
26 If Your Honor examines each and every case
27 relied upon by the prosecution in their response to this
28 motion, you will discover that every one of these cases
0096
01 involves a search of the scene of a reported crime where
02 the police officers have information that a crime has
03 actually been committed on the premises or the premises
04 are immediately adjacent to the scene of a reported
05 crime, and none of these cases involve investigative
06 activity not related to the exigency that justified the
07 original entry.
08 I can go through each of these cases and
09 Your Honor will discover that they are consistent in
10 this respect.
11 For example, People versus Wharton involved a
12 victim who had been reported missing and an entry to the
13 home of the victim to seek the missing victim, and the
14 officers found a dead body wrapped in plastic.
15 And the issue was simply whether the officers,
16 by exigent circumstances, were entitled to cut open the
17 plastic wrapper to confirm the presence of the missing
18 victim without a search warrant.
19 In the Tamborino case cited by the
20 prosecution, the police were responding to a radio call
21 that a robbery and a victim was injured and bleeding on
22 the premises that they entered. They found blood spots
23 outside the building and on a walkway of the apartment,
24 and a neighbor confirmed that an injured person was
25 inside the apartment before the officers made entry.
26 In the Mc dowell case, once again, we have a
27 report of an actual crime taking place on the premises
28 and an entry to investigate the circumstances. It's a
0097
01 typical hot pursuit situation where there was actually a
02 blood trail from the murder to an adjacent house, and
03 the officers were following that trail within 45 minutes
04 of the discovery of a murder.
05 In the Amaya case, again, the officers had a
06 report of a shooting on the premises. They observed a
07 pool of fresh blood in front of the apartment, a trail
08 of blood to a laundry room where they found a body of a
09 victim, and they then entered the apartment in which the
10 fresh pool of blood was found.
11 And finally, Bradford, a classic hot pursuit
12 situation, where the police were actually chasing the
13 suspects engaged in a gun battle with them, and the
14 court held they were thus entitled to enter the premises
15 where the suspects had fled to.
16 These are the kind of emergencies in which the
17 courts have recognized exigent circumstances and
18 permitted officers to dispense with the requirement of
19 probable cause and the seeking of a warrant.
20 Obviously, those don't come near to any of the
21 circumstances that have been presented here. We are
22 extending the exigent circumstance exception by a
23 distance of about two miles and by a duration of about
24 six hours, and that is a long, cold trail for exigent
25 circumstances.
26 Here we have officers coming to these premises
27 at 5:00 o'clock in the morning, at least six hours after
28 the murders that they were investigating had occurred, a
0098
01 distance of two miles away from the scene of those
02 murders.
03 The victim -- one of the victims of those
04 murders had been identified at 1:00 o'clock that
05 morning, and it appears that most of the delay
06 from 1:00 o'clock until 5:00 o'clock in the morning was
07 consumed simply in deciding what detectives were going
08 to investigate this homicide.
09 We are told that four detectives, the four
10 detectives who were most responsible for investigating
11 the circumstances of this homicide, all converged on the
12 residence of Mr. Simpson simply for the purpose of
13 informing him of the tragedy that had taken place at the
14 Bundy location, a purpose that could just as easily have
15 been accomplished by the placing of a telephone call.
16 The officers claim no exigency, no emergency,
17 until they discover what Your Honor has seen as a
18 one-eighth to one-quarter inch dried speck of substance
19 on the door of an automobile, which could not even be
20 confirmed as being blood after scientific investigation;
21 a stain which was just as consistent with a dripping
22 taco or a driver with a hang nail as with any
23 circumstances of murder, suicide or bleeding victims on
24 the premises.
25 I think it's very important to bear in mind
26 what the California Supreme Court said in the case of
27 People versus Smith, that "the belief upon which an
28 officer acts must be the product of facts known to or
0099
01 observed by him and not a fanciful attempt to
02 rationalize silence into a justification for a
03 warrantless entry."
04 And that is precisely all that these officers
05 encountered at the Rockingham premises: silence. And
06 from that silence, they had conjured up horrific visions
07 of the need to jump over the wall and enter the
08 premises, circumstances which do not appear in any of
09 their reports and do not appear in any written form
10 until after the motion to suppress had been filed in
11 this case and the testimony was presented in this
12 hearing.
13 Even more important is the scope of activity
14 in which these officers engaged after their entry to the
15 premises. Even if we concede -- and we do not
16 concede -- but even if we did concede that there were
17 exigent circumstances justifying a warrantless entry to
18 the premises, again, the scope of their activity on
19 those premises is limited by that exigency.
20 And that is a purpose which could easily have
21 been accomplished in ten minutes or less to ascertain
22 whether there were any murder victims or suicide victims
23 or hostages or bleeding persons on the premises.
24 Everything the officers encountered
25 immediately after their entry to the premises confirmed
26 that there was no such problem on the premises.
27 Their mission essentially was accomplished
28 prior to 6:00 o'clock in the morning. They had
0100
01 accomplished the notification of Mr. Simpson. They had
02 made arrangements for the well-being of the children
03 that were the subject of concern.
04 They had ascertained or located no other
05 victims or no reports of any other problems, with the
06 one exception that actually came later after their
07 mission had been accomplished of the report by
08 Mr. Kaelin of a thumping on the wall seven hours before
09 the officers were then engaged in investigative
10 activity.
11 And I think everything that happened from then
12 on can only be described as investigative activity, the
13 gathering of evidence of a crime, the precise activity
14 that the Fourth Amendment commands officers obtain
15 probable cause and a warrant before they engage in it.
16 Again and again we heard the detectives say,
17 "well, we didn't know what we had. We didn't know what
18 had happened on these premises."
19 Well, we know what they didn't have. They
20 didn't have a search warrant.
21 And if we were to carve out an exception to
22 the Fourth Amendment for detectives who don't know what
23 they have, in effect we would turn the Fourth Amendment
24 on its head and we would say, "the less you know, the
25 more you can search."
26 Now, I know and Your Honor knows that the
27 pundits and the cynics who are following this case
28 suggest that this case is too high profile a case for a
0101
01 motion to suppress to be granted. We do not share
02 that --
03 MS. CLARK: I'm going to object, as this argument
04 is improper, Your Honor.
05 THE COURT: I would ask you to confine yourself to
06 the facts in this particular matter.
07 MR. UELMEN: We do not share that cynicism,
08 Your Honor. I think it's important for us to bear in
09 mind that what is at issue here is the application of an
10 exclusionary rule whose purpose is to teach.
11 And what better vehicle do we have to teach
12 the lesson that the Fourth Amendment is alive and well
13 in Los Angeles.
14 I would close with the words of justice
15 Brandeis in Holmstead versus the United States: "our
16 government is the omnipotent, the omnipresent teacher
17 for good or ill. It teaches the whole people by its
18 example. If the government becomes a law breaker, it
19 breeds contempt for law, it invites every man to become
20 a law unto himself and invites anarchy."
21 Thank you.
22 THE COURT: Ms. Clark.
23 MS. CLARK: Thank you, Your Honor.
24 Well, Mr. Uelmen speaks very eloquently and
25 with a great deal of passion in terms that are very
26 graphic concerning the activities that transpired in the
27 early morning hours of June the 13th.
28 But none of the rhetoric and none of the fine
0102
01 quotations can change the facts as they existed on those
02 early morning hours.
03 He attempts to depict in very graphic terms
04 the search or the activities that were conducted at the
05 location of 360 Rockingham as though a Sherman tank were
06 being driven through the backyard and being plowed in
07 through the doors.
08 In fact, nothing could be farther from the
09 truth. In fact, all of the actions that were taken by
10 the officers in this case were clearly very carefully
11 confined to the stated purposes that they have given to
12 us throughout these proceedings.
13 And I'm going to point out exactly how logical
14 and how consistent those actions are as they match up
15 with every single motivation they've testified to in
16 this courtroom.
17 Mr. Uelmen pointed out that we may have
18 created a new exception here for officers who, quote,
19 don't know what they have. No, that's not a new
20 exception, Your Honor. As a matter of fact, I'm sure
21 the court is aware of the case of Mincey versus Arizona
22 in which the officers were permitted to enter a location
23 for a limited victim or suspect search.
24 In fact, that is exactly what occurred in this
25 case. They did not enter with guns drawn, they did not
26 enter with helicopters flying overhead or backup units
27 or anything else. If they had suspected there was a
28 suspect on the premises, if they had intended to go in
0103
01 to collect evidence, all of those things would have been
02 done.
03 The fact that they were not done is further
04 evidence to the court that what they were concerned with
05 was an emergency situation of multiple victims, and as
06 the cases are clear -- and the people have cited them in
07 the motion -- the officers are not confined to one
08 purpose. They can't be.
09 This is a human situation. This is not a
10 laboratory where you pursue one objective and come to a
11 conclusion and then you pursue another one and come to
12 that.
13 These things do not happen in discreet units
14 of time, and try as one might or one would like to pin
15 down the events into a sequential order that is neatly
16 packaged, things do not happen that way, and that's what
17 we heard the officers testifying to repeatedly,
18 consistently. In fact, even the civilian witnesses
19 testified in that manner.
20 Kato Kaelin, who was trying to explain, "well,
21 it happened this way, it happened that way." Well, we
22 got one picture during the questioning on direct and
23 another picture during the questioning on cross.
24 On direct examination, you might have had the
25 impression that the officers came straight to the door
26 and immediately upon seeing Mr. Kaelin heard that the
27 defendant was in Chicago.
28 On cross-examination, we heard no, he's not
0104
01 sure about when that came out. The officers went to
02 his door, he directed them to Arnelle. One officer
03 stayed with him, the others went to Arnelle's room.
04 He indicated that he then had a conversation
05 with that detective during which he told him about the
06 thumps on the wall. The officer asked him, "did
07 anything unusual occur last night?" Again, consistent
08 with all of his concerns about what had happened at the
09 crime scene that might relate to the location of 360
10 Rockingham.
11 During the course of that conversation, Kato
12 Kaelin indicates, "yes, I told him about the thumps on
13 the wall. I know I told that story twice. I also
14 told some detective about what I thought was -- the
15 defendant going to Chicago in the limousine, going to
16 the airport in the limousine, and going to Chicago. I
17 think I only told that one once. And I know I spoke to
18 another detective in the bar area, and that may have
19 been when that conversation happened and when that
20 information came out."
21 Because things are happening in a jumbled mess
22 and you have witnesses, especially a civilian witness,
23 who is rousted out of bed in the midst of sleep,
24 disoriented and frazzled, who is unsure of the events
25 that have occurred at that moment.
26 So things do not happen that discreetly, and
27 for the officers as well. Things were happening all at
28 once.
0105
01 Now, with respect to the factual circumstances
02 as they actually transpired, first of all, at the point
03 that the officers leave for 360 Rockingham, the bloody
04 crime scene -- what is in their minds is what they've
05 just seen at 875 south Bundy.
06 They've seen a bloody crime scene with bloody
07 shoe prints leading away from the crime scene and blood
08 drops to the side of them leading from the crime scene,
09 and that tells them that someone left the scene
10 bleeding.
11 Moreover, they've seen a brown leather glove
12 at the feet of one of the victims. They know that
13 children, small ones, have been taken away from the
14 scene and placed in police custody because they don't
15 know where to place those children. They don't know
16 into whose custody to deliver those children.
17 They also know of the celebrity status of the
18 victim's husband, the children's father, who lives close
19 by. So close by that he's the most logical person to
20 go to. You want to get someone quickly who can take
21 care of those children as quickly as you can.
22 The celebrity status of the victim -- of the
23 victim's ex-husband is important because we know about
24 the stalkers, we know that these things are in the
25 officer's mind, and reasonably so because he has to be
26 considering everything, every possibility that may
27 occur.
28 If he fails to take into account every
0106
01 possibility, then we justifiably are upset. "Why
02 didn't you think of that, officer? Why didn't you
03 protect these people? That's your job." And he takes
04 it seriously. These officers did so. They took every
05 possibility seriously, including that.
06 Now, the point that they leave -- they left
07 the crime scene, they were going to make a notification
08 to the defendant and they were going to see what to do
09 with his small children.
10 That they would go to him first, who is the
11 next of kin closest to the children, makes imminent
12 sense; that they would go to him first because he is the
13 nearest relative -- only two miles away, I think was the
14 testimony -- also makes imminent sense. And expect to
15 find him.
16 Now, what happens when they arrive at the
17 location, having all of those -- all of those exigencies
18 in mind, knowing that you have small children to take
19 care for, knowing the kind of bloody scene that you've
20 just left and the relative -- and the ex-wife of a
21 celebrity like this who may be the victim of a stalker,
22 all of these things are in their minds at the time that
23 they go to the residence and just want to find
24 Mr. Simpson.
25 That's all they're looking to do. Assure
26 themselves everything's all right, take care of the
27 children. They'll be done. And as detective Fuhrman
28 put it, "had Mr. Simpson come to the door, it would have
0107
01 all been over. We would have left." But that didn't
02 happen. That did not happen.
03 And with all of that in mind, the officers go
04 to 360 Rockingham and attempt to raise someone inside
05 the house. They ring the intercom repeatedly and get
06 no answer.
07 Yet there are lights on. There are lights on
08 downstairs, there's a light on upstairs. There are
09 cars in the driveway.
10 They contact Westec and find out that a maid
11 should be there full time, and on a property of that
12 size it's probably not unreasonable to think that
13 someone should be there full time looking over it, and
14 yet they don't reach someone.
15 Then they finally get the house phone number,
16 and they call that phone number and there's no answer
17 once again.
18 Now, their concern has to mount. These are
19 human beings, these detectives, and they know all the
20 concerns are still pressing on them.
21 No answer to the intercom, no answer to the
22 house phone, and there's lights on and there's cars in
23 the driveway. They have to be concerned.
24 Now the detective has indicated, "I see the
25 car in front of the house, it seems to be parked kind of
26 hastily, and I see what I think is a spot of blood on
27 the door handle."
28 They've come from a bloody crime scene where
0108
01 someone left bleeding. They get to this location, they
02 see a spot of blood.
03 Your Honor, I don't care if it's a spot of
04 blood as big as a dime or as big as a quarter, it's
05 unusual to find blood on an otherwise clean car, and a
06 car that's parked hastily; one that belongs to
07 Mr. Simpson, as they've been able to determine, whose
08 ex-wife has just been found dead in a bloody mess two
09 miles away.
10 You have to consider that all of these things
11 are happening at once and they're in these officers'
12 minds.
13 At that point when they fail to reach anyone
14 and they get the information that Westec security has no
15 knowledge that Mr. Simpson is supposed to be away on
16 travel, they get nobody to answer the phone, no one to
17 answer the door and yet there's indications there should
18 be someone there. With the blood on the door handle,
19 they would have been derelict in duty.
20 It is absolutely incumbent upon them to do
21 something at that point to assure themselves that the
22 people inside that house are safe and secure, that there
23 is not something horribly amiss, because they've just
24 come from a scene so gory that nothing could be more
25 amiss than that.
26 And the connection directly to the household
27 of Mr. Simpson is absolutely clear. And if they were
28 to stand outside and think about leaving, think about
0109
01 waiting until Mr. Simpson came home, while someone may
02 have lain dying, bleeding in that location, we would
03 justifiably be upset. We would justifiably call them
04 derelict in their duty, and they could not do that.
05 So without calling for backup, without calling
06 for a helicopter, without bullet proof vests, without
07 guns drawn, they went over -- they decided to enter the
08 property. And the fact that they did none of those
09 things I just indicated to the court is another
10 indication of how consistent their actions were with
11 their stated motivation.
12 If they were looking for a suspect, if they
13 were looking to collect evidence that -- of a crime,
14 they would not have gone in in that unprotected manner.
15 Nor would they have gone simply walking on the grounds
16 to go and knock on a guest door immediately when they
17 get to the backyard area.
18 In the cases cited by the people and referred
19 to by defense counsel, though -- and I'm sure the court
20 has already read them -- one very important
21 distinguishing factor is that in those cases the Court
22 validated the warrantless entry into a residence and in
23 some cases a forced entry into that residence. These
24 officers went in and they kicked down the doors.
25 The minimal nature of the intrusion in this
26 case is an important thing to bear in mind because, far
27 from Sherman tanks going in through that backyard or
28 using battering rams on the doors, these officers simply
0110
01 went into a backyard and knocked on the door of a guest
02 house, which is an entirely reasonable thing to do under
03 the circumstances and totally consistent with their
04 stated motivation.
05 If their motivation in fact, Your Honor, had
06 been nothing more than to go and find a place to place
07 these children with a responsible adult, given that they
08 were left in police custody for hours at this point,
09 their actions would be reasonable for only that
10 motivation, but yet there was so much more, as the court
11 is aware.
12 Now, it is important to bear in mind that
13 these are unfolding events, and as each event occurs,
14 the information gathered spurs further action.
15 So rather than going and searching for
16 evidence, fanning out on the grounds to go and start
17 searching under cubby -- in cubby holes and under tables
18 and inside cabinets, they go for the straight forward
19 thing. They go straight to a guest house in search of
20 someone who could assure them that either nothing was
21 amiss and assist in the placement of the children, or
22 confirm that something was indeed amiss in which they
23 could offer their assistance.
24 They went to the door of Kato Kaelin.
25 Mr. Kaelin, as he indicated himself, was frazzled and
26 disoriented. They don't know who he is. They don't
27 know if he belongs there. He may be a suspect himself.
28 It's truly the case, they don't know what they
0111
01 have. Is he a victim? Is he a suspect? They don't
02 know. They just have to find out.
03 And at that point when they ask him, "well, is
04 there someone around here who can let us into the house
05 and find out if the defendant is okay and where he might
06 be," he directs them to Arnelle.
07 Now while the other detectives -- the other
08 detectives then immediately go to Arnelle. Another
09 indication that they are trying to resolve a situation
10 that they just don't know enough about.
11 They know a bloody gory scene, they know
12 that. They know children in police custody for whom
13 they have no immediate placement. They know that.
14 But they do not know what has gone on and they have to
15 find out, and they have to do it soon because every
16 indication thus far has been that someone could be
17 bleeding or dying back there.
18 They go to Arnelle. The first thing they
19 want to do is resolve where is Mr. Simpson. That is
20 the first thing to resolve because Mr. Simpson can
21 dictate what is done with the children.
22 He goes to Arnelle. They go to Arnelle and
23 talk to her. In the meantime, not knowing who Brian
24 Kaelin is, detective Fuhrman stays with him for
25 officer's safety.
26 Now, while the other detectives go into the
27 house with Arnelle to find out -- to locate Mr. Simpson,
28 Kato Kaelin is speaking to detective Fuhrman.
0112
01 Now, let me point out again, the actions are
02 entirely consistent with the stated motivation.
03 The officers don't say, "well, if you don't
04 let us in, we're going to go bash the door down." They
05 don't go to bash the door down. And they won't, once
06 they're inside the house with Arnelle, make any attempt
07 to search other than to find out first things first.
08 Let's make the phone call. They do the least intrusive
09 things they possibly can at every bend and turn.
10 If what they were doing there was looking to
11 perform a general exploratory search, if this was a
12 pretextural search, excuse to search, then you would
13 have seen them roaming through the house. That never
14 happened.
15 They went into the house with Arnelle, went
16 immediately with her to the phone, "here, make the call,
17 let's find him."
18 And while they're doing that, as the events
19 are unfolding, detective Fuhrman is speaking to Kato.
20 Kato is telling him, "yes, something unusual happened
21 last night. I heard a thump on my wall."
22 Well, that kind of matches up to the timing of
23 what detective Fuhrman thinks might have happened --
24 what may have happened over at the Bundy Drive location,
25 and now he's got to think, "well, maybe someone did fall
26 down, collapse, and is back there bleeding. It is a
27 dark area back there." And hearing about three thumps
28 on the wall (Noise made) is a very startling thing in
0113
01 the night.
02 Detective Fuhrman would have been, I think,
03 dismissable for inaction had he not gone to investigate
04 that. So we have yet another action that is spurred by
05 the events.
06 As I said, the events could not occur in
07 discreet units of time. You had a situation with
08 the -- the unfolding nature of the information that was
09 being received that demanded that further action be
10 taken, but at every bend and turn the action taken was
11 confined to the information that motivated it.
12 Now, there is no indication at any point, I
13 think, that Arnelle said the officers were rousting
14 through the house and conducting an exploratory search,
15 and the officers indicated they did not do so.
16 At no point did she indicate that the officers
17 twisted her arm or threatened her to let them into the
18 house and make the phone calls that they did. And in
19 fact, it's very interesting that what she indicates is
20 that she was allowed to go and get the children with
21 A.C. Cowlings and within -- she said, I think, the
22 station was four miles away.
23 And detective Vannatter indicated that he
24 decided to secure the residence for a search warrant
25 within minutes of their return with the children.
26 So within a 10 to 15 minute period, you have
27 the discovery by detective Vannatter on the driveway of
28 the blood drops that causes him to then determine to
0114
01 secure the residence, which is just about the time that
02 Arnelle gets back with the children and A.C. Cowlings.
03 This, again, indicates that the timing of this
04 is a fluid thing, but there are a lot of events
05 occurring at once, all of which are imparting
06 information to the officers on which they have to act,
07 and they did, and they acted reasonably.
08 Now, once detective Fuhrman got the
09 information from Kato concerning the thumps on the wall,
10 I think it can't be disputed that it was incumbent then
11 upon him to go out and investigate the source of those
12 thumps. But even when he did that, he did it in a
13 manner that was consistent with the stated motivation of
14 being in that place to begin with.
15 Because he indicated that he walked down the
16 path, he saw the glove, and yet he continued to walk
17 down the path until he went all the way to the end of
18 the property, because he thought that was the location
19 large enough and dark enough that could have hidden a
20 body.
21 He went back, all the way back there and
22 looked, leaving the evidence behind him, because the
23 motivation of finding a victim that may need assistance
24 or an injured party that may need assistance was the
25 primary motivation.
26 And although the courts have indicated in
27 Baird and in Duncan that you may not determine that the
28 primary motivation was the emergency, that the officers
0115
01 may have many motivations, one of which is legitimately
02 the collection of evidence, yet I think it is clear in
03 this case that the primary motivation by all of the
04 actions taken by these officers was indeed to preserve
05 life and to act on an emergency that may have threatened
06 the life and limb of some party. All of the actions
07 taken by the officers is consistent with that
08 motivation.
09 And again, I would reiterate to the court, to
10 test the validity of the assertion that they were there
11 to preserve life and limb, the court need only ask
12 itself, what if someone had been injured and lay
13 bleeding near death somewhere on the grounds while they
14 decided to go and obtain a search warrant, or simply
15 when they failed to get a response to their ringing and
16 phone calls? Just leave? What would we have said?
17 We would have said they were derelict, we
18 would have said that they were incompetent. We would
19 have said nothing good about the manner in which they
20 fulfilled their duties because they would not have been
21 fulfilling their duties.
22 Instead, they did fulfill their duties. They
23 happened upon evidence. It's clear that the evidence
24 they happened upon was in an outside area and it was in
25 an area that Mr. Kaelin had more control -- or more
26 access to, I should say, because that was outside the
27 outer wall of his guest unit.
28 I'm not indicating in that regard that
0116
01 Mr. Simpson did not indicate an expectation of privacy
02 within the gates surrounding his property. But I am
03 indicating that there is a lesser expectation of privacy
04 with respect to an area outside the main house that is
05 most adjacent to a guest unit occupied by someone other
06 than the defendant who is, no matter what he may
07 consider himself, not a member of the family, who's been
08 living there only for six months and freely invites
09 friends in and out and performs duties around the
10 house. He himself is exercising dominion and control
11 over the area.
12 And by indicating to officers the thumps that
13 he heard on the wall has indicated a desire to have
14 that -- the origin of those thumps investigated.
15 Now, the fact that the thumps occurred hours
16 earlier is simply no excuse for not going to investigate
17 what might have happened to cause them. I hope that
18 counsel is not suggesting that a police officer is
19 supposed to take a report from someone who indicates,
20 "well, yes, three hours ago I heard gunshots." "Well,
21 three hours ago? Forget it."
22 Is an officer supposed to do that? Wouldn't
23 that be ridiculous? Wouldn't that be horrific if an
24 officer did that?
25 It doesn't matter if it was seven minutes or
26 seven hours ago. An officer has a duty to investigate
27 what may be a very serious situation that may be indeed
28 life threatening, and if it was seven hours or seven
0117
01 minutes ago, it is incumbent upon him to go and
02 determine if something has happened to someone because
03 he may yet preserve life. And the officer did exactly
04 what he should do under the circumstances.
05 I would reiterate to the court the cases
06 previously cited of People versus Soldoff, People versus
07 Bradford, and Tamborino versus Superior Court, all of
08 which fully support the search that was conducted in
09 this case.
10 And in fact, counsel cited to Mc dowell as an
11 example that was inapposite. I disagree. That case
12 is very similar to the instant case.
13 There were a couple of residences. The
14 actual crime scene, I think, that they found was the
15 Bradford residence. The decedent's residence had been
16 searched by a previous officer and abandoned when
17 officer Petroski, following a blood trail, followed it
18 into and out of that residence, leaving evidence there,
19 and continued to pursue the blood trail until he found
20 the defendant, and only after securing the defendant
21 went back without a warrant and collected the evidence.
22 In this case we don't have any of the problems
23 of abandoning the area of search and coming back hours
24 later without a warrant. Under these circumstances it
25 was very clear that by the time he went back to seize
26 that evidence, there was no exigency, there was no
27 emergency. The defendant was under arrest.
28 Everything was secured. He had ample time to go and
0118
01 get a search warrant. He certainly had probable cause.
02 Did he do so in Mc dowell? No, he
03 didn't. No, he didn't. He went and he saw all those
04 items, he left, he went to do other things, he came back
05 without a warrant and seized them.
06 Certainly People versus Mc dowell makes the
07 search issue in this case look like there's no
08 problem. There's nothing to talk about here.
09 And People versus Amaya is the same. We have
10 a situation where the officers go in, see evidence,
11 leave, come back in, go get other officers, go back in
12 again, over a period of hours, and never bother to get a
13 warrant.
14 That was not the case here. That was not the
15 case. These officers went in with a stated emergency
16 that was reasonable to believe existed. They acted in
17 a manner consistent with that belief, happened upon
18 evidence, and as soon as that evidence was found,
19 stopped everything and got a warrant.
20 Now, it is true that detective Vannatter
21 called for a criminalist to examine the blood on the
22 exterior, on the door of the Bronco. But, again,
23 People versus Duncan makes it clear that there is not
24 one purpose that an officer is restricted to, nor is the
25 court required to find that the primary motivation of
26 any officer is an emergency or an exigent
27 circumstance.
28 As long as one of those -- as long as that is
0119
01 one of the motivations and that motivation is reasonably
02 held, that belief is reasonably held, then the search,
03 the warrantless search, is valid.
04 And in that regard, counsel has cited People
05 versus Dickson that holds for the contrary. That's an
06 appellate case. That case is disapproved in People
07 versus Duncan, which is a California Supreme Court case
08 that came later.
09 And in that case, People versus Duncan, the
10 court said, and I quote: "it is unreasonable to expect
11 an officer to be unconcerned with the collection of
12 evidence and the capture of criminals. While the trial
13 court must find that the officer believed an emergency
14 to exist, reasonable actions taken by the officer should
15 not preclude such a finding."
16 An officer who is acting reasonably under the
17 circumstances in which he finds himself, as long as one
18 of the purposes is justifiably that of emergency -- and
19 I think we cannot have any doubt that that existed
20 here -- the fact that he also intended to preserve and
21 collect evidence, should it become relevant, certainly
22 is no reason to find invalid the genuineness of his
23 belief in the fact that an emergency existed.
24 Just as the officer did in Mc dowell. When
25 the officer in Mc dowell went running through the house
26 following the blood trail, he saw evidence there. He
27 decided that it had to be preserved. He went out and
28 got the defendant, called for a criminalist, and went
0120
01 back to make sure it was preserved and photographed in
02 place, never considering getting a warrant.
03 In this case, especially with respect to the
04 Ford Bronco parked on a public street with a door
05 handle -- an exterior door handle that evidenced blood,
06 detective Vannatter thought this may be needed to be
07 collected. "We may need this in the future. We may
08 not. We may not." But a careful officer, an
09 experienced officer, a dedicated officer knows that you
10 can never tell what you may encounter.
11 They didn't, none of them, suspect that they
12 were at the residence of a suspect. If they had, do
13 you think in a million years they would have gone over
14 that wall without their guns drawn, without bullet proof
15 vests, without a back-up unit, without helicopters?
16 Never in a million years. And that's why he indicated
17 to you this was not a suspect's residence.
18 "We were concerned for the occupants, not for
19 our safety," and every action they took makes it
20 abundantly clear that that is precisely what they were
21 doing.
22 Accordingly, Your Honor, the court would
23 urge -- the people would urge this court to find that
24 the search was reasonably undertaken for the legitimate
25 purpose of preserving life, and additionally,
26 Your Honor, that the car, the Ford Bronco, was in plain
27 view, was seizable under the line of cases under Ross
28 and its progeny, and that that does not constitute a
0121
01 search for which any warrant was required, especially as
02 to the exterior door handle, which is the subject matter
03 of this motion.
04 And we would ask the court to admit the
05 evidence seized prior to the issuance of the search
06 warrant.
07 THE COURT: Mr. Uelmen, do you wish to be heard in
08 response?
09 MR. UELMEN: Very briefly, Your Honor.
10 Four very brief points.
11 First, if we simply take the officers at their
12 word, that their purpose in going to these premises was
13 to notify Mr. Simpson of the murder of his wife and to
14 arrange for the care of his children, we're left with a
15 real mystery as to how that minute speck on the door of
16 the Bronco all of a sudden elevated their concern to the
17 magnitude that is being described by Ms. Clark.
18 There is nothing logical that we can seize on
19 that suggests that that kind of a speck, on the exterior
20 of an automobile, parked in front of a house, gives you
21 any reason for concern that there are victims, hostages,
22 or bleeding people inside the premises. It just
23 doesn't connect.
24 It may elevate their motivation to want to
25 enter the premises and conduct a search, but that, we're
26 told, is -- wouldn't in a million years have been their
27 purpose. They were not looking for a suspect, we're
28 told.
0122
01 Now again, if we take the officers at their
02 word, they said, "if Mr. Simpson had come to the door,
03 even after we climbed over the wall and knocked at the
04 door, we would have left."
05 Well, within minutes of that knock on the
06 door, they had accomplished their purpose. The
07 evidence is undisputed that the call was completed to
08 speak to Mr. Simpson in Chicago shortly after 5:45 in
09 the morning.
10 The testimony of officer Fuhrman is that
11 between 6:15 and 6:30, a half hour to 45 minutes later,
12 is when he first engaged in his foray to explore the
13 area to the south of the residence and the wall behind
14 Mr. Kaelin's room.
15 Third, Ms. Clark has said, "well, this case
16 doesn't involve rousting, it doesn't involve Sherman
17 tanks invading the premises."
18 But, of course, that's not what the
19 Fourth Amendment is designed to protect us against. It
20 is designed to protect our reasonable expectations of
21 privacy. It is designed to protect against the
22 activity of police officers searching for evidence
23 without probable cause and a warrant.
24 And I don't think there can be much doubt that
25 these officers were searching for evidence. The first
26 thing they did when they entered Mr. Kaelin's room was
27 not to look for a bleeding victim but to examine his
28 clothing, to examine the shoes he had worn the night
0123
01 before.
02 Finally, I think it's important to bear in
03 mind that the whole purpose of the Fourth Amendment is
04 that we don't entrust our privacy to the discretion of
05 police officers who are engaged in the process of
06 ferreting out criminal activity.
07 The purpose of the Fourth Amendment is to have
08 a neutral magistrate intervene between the police
09 officers and the citizen. And here in California, we
10 have magistrates a phone call away.
11 All they had to do was pick up the telephone
12 and they could have gotten a telephonic search warrant.
13 And we were told by the officer, "we've never used that
14 procedure."
15 And we might ask ourselves, why? Is it
16 because they don't need to? Is it because conjuring up
17 this exigent circumstances or emergency exception is
18 some sort of talisman that makes the Fourth Amendment
19 disappear?
20 Is it because we don't have the fortitude and
21 the courage to say to our police officers, the
22 Fourth Amendment means what it says? And what it says
23 is before you invade the privacy of a person's
24 residence, you get probable cause, you go to a judge and
25 you get a search warrant.
26 Thank you.
27 THE COURT: All right.
28 Is the matter submitted at this time by both
0124
01 sides?
02 MS. CLARK: The people -- the court is not inviting
03 the people to be heard again, I take it?
04 THE COURT: No, I'm not. Not at this time.
05 MS. CLARK: In that case.
06 THE COURT: All right.
07 The court will announce its ruling tomorrow
08 morning.
09 We will be in recess at this time
10 until 9:00 o'clock tomorrow.
11
12
13
14 (At 4:33 p.m., a recess was taken until
15 Thursday, July 7, 1994, at 9:00 a.m.)
16
17
0125
01 THE MUNICIPAL COURT OF LOS ANGELES JUDICIAL DISTRICT
02 COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES, STATE OF CALIFORNIA
03
03
04 THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA, )
04 ) no. BA097211
05 PLAINTIFF, )
05 )
06 VS. )
06 )
07 )
07 ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON, )
08 AKA O.J. SIMPSON, )
08 )
09 )
09 )
10 DEFENDANT. )
10 _______________________________________)
11
11
12 STATE OF CALIFORNIA )
12 ) SS
13 COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES )
13
14
14
15
16 I HEREBY CERTIFY THAT I AM AN OFFICIAL C.A.T.
17 COURT REPORTER OF THE ABOVE-ENTITLED COURT; THAT I DID
18 CORRECTLY REPORT THE PROCEEDINGS CONTAINED HEREIN; AND
19 THAT THE FOREGOING IS A TRUE AND CORRECT STATEMENT OF
20 PROCEEDINGS AND TRANSCRIPTION OF MY SAID NOTES.
21
21
22 DATED THIS 6th DAY OF July, 1994.
22
23
23
24 _____________________________________
24 ARNELLA I. SIMS, CSR #2896
25 OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
25
26
26
27 _____________________________________
27 ROBERT GUNN, CSR #1539
28 OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
28
0126
01