SHARON RUFO,
Plaintiff,
v.
ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON et al.,
Defendants
FREDRIC GOLDMAN,
Plaintiffs,
vs.
ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON, et al.,
Defendants
LOUIS H. BROWN, etc.,
Plaintiffs,
vs.
ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON,
Defendant.
Videotaped deposition of ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON, taken on behalf of the Plaintiffs, at 11377 West Olympic Boulevard, 10th Floor, Los Angeles, California, commencing at 9:46 a.m., on Thursday, January 25, 1996, before David S. Coleman, CSR #4613, pursuant to Court Order.
APPEARANCES:
FOR THE PLAINTIFFS FREDRIC GOLDMAN, ET AL:
MITCHELL, SILBERBERG & KNUPP
BY: DANIEL M. PETROCELLI, ESQ
PETER B. GELBLUM, ESQ.
EDWARD M. MEDVENE, ESQ.
ARTHUR GROMAN, ESQ.
11377 West Olympic Boulevard
Sixth Floor
Los Angeles, California 90064-1683
FOR THE PLAINTIFF ESTATE OF BROWN:
JOHN QUINLAN KELLY, ESQ.
330 Madison Avenue
New York, New York 10017-5090
(212) 682-1700
FOR THE PLAINTIFF SHARON RUFO
HORNBERGER & CRISWELL
BY: MICHAEL A. BREWER, ESQ.
444 South Flower Street
Thirty-First Floor
Los Angeles, California 90071
APPEARANCES (Continued):
FOR THE DEFENDANT ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON:
BAKER, SILBERBERG & KEENER
BY: ROBERT C. BAKER, ESQ.
2850 Ocean Park Boulevard
Suite 300
Santa Monica, California 90405-2936
-and-
BAILEY, FISHMAN & LEONARD
BY: DANIEL LEONARD, ESQ.
66 Long Wharf
Boston, Massachusetts 02110
(61 7) 723-1380
-and-
ROBERT D. BLASIER, ESQ.
6355 Riverside Boulevard
Suite 2-F
Sacramento, California 95831
(916) 427-1600
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: ROD RIGOLE
ALSO PRESENT: FREDRIC GOLDMAN
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. Here begins videotape No. 1 in the deposition of Orenthal James Simpson, Volume IV, in the consolidated cases of Fredric Goldman, Sharon Rufo and Louis Brown vs. Orenthal James Simpson in the Superior Court, State of California, County of Los Angeles, the lead case number of which is SC031947. Today's date is Thursday January 25th, 1996. The time is approximately 9:46. This deposition is being taken at 7 West Olympic Boulevard in Los Angeles, California and was made the at the request of plaintiff, of the Law Offices of Mitchell, Silberberg & Knupp. The videographer is Rod Rigole, employed by Coleman, Haas, Martin & Schwab of Los Angeles, California. Would counsel please identify yourselves and state whom you represent.
MR. PETROCELLI: Daniel Petrocelli for plaintiff Fredric Goldman.
MR. MEDVENE: Ed Medvene for plaintiff Fredric Goldman.
MR. GELBLUM: Peter Gelblum for plaintiff Fredric Goldman.
MR. BREWER: Michael Brewer for plaintiff Rufo.
MR. KELLY: John Kelly for the Estate of Nicole Brown Simpson.
MR. BLASIER: Robert Blasier for Mr. Simpson.
MR. LEONARD: Daniel Leonard for Mr. Simpson.
MR. BAKER: Bob Baker for OJ. Simpson.
MR. GROMAN: Arthur Groman for Fred Goldman.
ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON, having been previously duly sworn, was examined and testified further as follows:
EXAMINATION (Resumed)
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Good morning, Mr. Simpson.
A: Good morning.
Q: Did you do any preparation for today's session?
A: Absolutely none.
Q: Last night you gave an interview on television?
A: That's correct.
Q: Was there any discussion about this lawsuit?
A: I don't recall if he asked me a question, but it would be on the tape.
Q: You don't remember?
A: No.
Q: When you came downstairs the first time and picked up your golf cover bag and picked it up and sort of signaled to the limousine driver, do you know if the limousine driver saw you do that?
A: I don't know if he did, no.
Q: Did he acknowledge to you that he had seen you?
A: Well, his lights were on, so I couldn't see if he did.
Q: Could you see the driver in the car?
A: No, I couldn't.
Q: So after you put the bag down and went upstairs, at that moment in time you did not know whether the driver had seen you. Is that right?
A: Didn't give it a thought.
Q: Is that right?
A: Correct.
Q: When you went to McDonald's, did you go straight there and straight back to the house?
A: Correct.
Q: How long did it take to there?
A: I don't know.
Q: Approximately?
A: I don't know.
Q: You know where it's located. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: You drove at normal speed?
A: Yes.
Q: About 10 minutes?
A: I don't know. You mean to get there?
Q: Yeah.
A: Shouldn't be much more than 10 minutes, yes.
Q: How long did it take to get the food?
A: I don't know.
Q: Five or ten minutes?
A: I don't know. I was not paying any attention if there was other cars in front of us or not. I don't have any recollection.
Q: You don't recall it being a particularly long wait or anything like that. Correct?
A: One way or the other, no.
Q: And about 10 minutes to get back?
A: Approximately, I guess.
Q: Do you think you were gone all told about half an hour?
A: Approximately, yeah.
Q: Or less?
A: I don't know.
Q: From the time that you came back from McDonald's and went into the house until the time that you picked up the phone in your bedroom and spoke to Alan Park, did you see any person?
A: No.
Q: Did any person see you?
A: I wouldn't know that.
Q: To your knowledge did any person--
A: I--
Q: To your knowledge did any person see you?
A: I don't have knowledge. I don't know who was where and who was looking. So I didn't see anybody, so I don't know who saw me or not.
Q: And you weren't with anyone. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: And during that time period did you speak to anyone?
A: Yes.
Q: Who?
A: Sydney Simpson, Christian Reichardt, possibly Michelle--
MR. BAKER: Are we talking about after he got back?
THE WITNESS: He--
MR. PETROCELLI: Yes, that was my question. Let me reframe it.
THE WITNESS I didn't understand
MR. KELLY: Could I have the last question read Back, as a matter of fact, please.
(Discussion held off the record.)
Record read from Page 954, line 18 through Page 954, Line 23.)
MR. KELLY: Can you go back one more question?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Mr. Simpson, while we were off the record a moment, you said you wanted to correct yourself.
A: Yes. I was--during the time I got home that was the case, but I spoke to them before I went to McDonald's. That was right before I went to McDonald's.
Q: That you spoke to them.
A: Yeah.
Q: Is that what you're saying.?
A: That's correct.
Q: You clear on that?
A: Yes.
Q: From the time that you came back from McDonald's and went into the house until the time that you picked up the phone in the bedroom and spoke to Alan Park--
A: Yes.
Q: --did you speak to anyone?
A: No. Not personally, no.
Q: You added the word "personally." I don't know whether that changes anything. The question is: During that time frame did you speak to anyone?
A: No.
Q: Did anyone speak to you?
A: No.
Q: During that time frame do you know of any person other than yourself who can account for your whereabouts?
A: No.
Q: Let me show you the next -- the document which I will mark as the next exhibit in order, Exhibit 41. For other counsel to see, I am going to be showing--
MR. KELLY: Are you going to be able to photocopy that?
MR. PETROCELLI: I have photocopied it. Not in color. Okay?
Q: While we are passing out the copies, Mr. Simpson, I will show you what I am going to ask you a question about.
MR. BLASIER: Is there a trial exhibit number on that?
MR. GELBLUM: Trial Exhibit 120.
(Plaintiffs' Exhibit 41 was marked for identification by the reporter and is attached hereto.)
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: What I would like you to do is go to the photo in the top right-hand comer, this one (Indicating). Do you see that?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, that depicts what?
A: The front entry to my house
Q: And the distance between the front door and the beginning of the driveway you approximated yesterday at 15 feet. Correct?
A: 15 feet, yeah.
Q: And when you came out the first time partially dressed and picked up the golf cover bag and laid it down, motioned to the limousine driver, you said yesterday you came out approximately halfway. Right?
A: No. I came to the bench, which is approximately halfway.
MR. BAKER: He said he came to the west end of the bench.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: The west end of the bench, which is approximately halfway--
A: That's incorrect.
Q: --Out to the driveway. Correct?
A: That's totally incorrect.
Q: What is incorrect about it?
A: It's not approximately halfway.
Q: What is it?
A: Probably three quarters of the way.
Q: Could you mark where you came out?
A: When? I mean, I came out--I got
Q: I am only talking about this one point in time when you came downstairs partially dressed to pick up your golf cover bag, motioned to the limousine driver, put it down on the ground.
A: You want me to mark it on it?
MR. BAKER: You did it yesterday. He is not going to do it today. He did it yesterday. Don't mark it.
MR. PETROCELLI: I have an exact picture of the location, Mr. Baker, and I don't know that he did yesterday, but I'll take your word for it if he did.
MR. BAKER: He marked on your drawing, and again it was, as I suggested to you, inaccurate. This is a shot that doesn't show, in my opinion, any level of breadth because it's tunneled into his front door, and I don't know how you could actually mark on that to give any sense of how far out the door he came.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Do you see where the benches extend out?
A: No.
Q: You have benches on either side. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And did you go past the benches?
A: I told you approximately to that end of the bench. I don't know exactly to the foot that I went to, but approximately--
Q: Approximately the end of the bench.
A: Yes.
Q: That's as far as you went.
A: That's where I threw the clubs down, yes.
Q: You didn't go out any farther past that point.
A: No farther past that point.
Q: Then you went back inside.
A: That's correct.
Q: Okay.
A: I didn't go to the driveway. Anywhere in there I could have been, but I didn't go to the driveway. I wasn't marking--take one step here, one l step there, but I never made it to the driveway.
Q: When you pulled your Bronco out to park it for the last time on Rockingham, you pulled it out, made a right and parked it?
A: That's correct.
Q: And why don't we use this exhibit again, No. 41. You see where the Bronco is situated in the top left-hand corner of the exhibit?
A: Yes.
Q: Is that where you parked it?
A: Yes.
Q: And that's where you left it?
A: Yes.
Q: Is the distance from the Rockingham gate to the front door the same, greater or less than the distance from the Ashford gate to the front door, in your opinion?
A: The Rockingham is further.
Q: In light of that, what was the reason why you didn't park on Ashford and then push the door open, as you are able to do without a key--you did not have a key--and then walk to the front door?
MR. BAKER: It was asked and answered yesterday.
MR. PETROCELLI: Excuse me?
MR. BAKER: It was asked and answered yesterday. You can answer it one more time.
THE WITNESS: For at least--well, never mind. I didn't want my dog to run out.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: But when you pulled the car out to park it on Rockingham, your dog could still run out.
A: But he didn't run out, as I explained to you yesterday. I looked, I didn't see him. And if he ran out, I was there. I was there to say, "Come on Chachi, come back in."
Q: But you were in the car.
A: But I got out of the car to come back in.
Q: But you could have parked around the corner and--
A: And he'd have been gone down the other corner.
Q: Let me ask you this one question then.
A: Jesus.
Q: No matter where you parked, when you pull out of the Rockingham gate, the gate is still open for the same length of time, regardless of when you parked. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: Your state of mind at that time, Mr. Simpson, was that if you pulled out of the Rockingham gate and parked there, you were in a better position to get the dog? Is that what your saying?
A: My state of mind at that time was to park the car and come back in, and I wasn't in the mood to go for Chachi, so I didn't want Chachi to go out of that gate. So that was my state of mind, yes.
Q: But it was still possible for Chachi to leave the gate, though.
A: No. Chachi is a relatively trained dog. If I'm there, she won't go out. If I say, "No, Chachi. Come here," she'll come here.
Q: When you exit that gate to leave the property to go someplace else--
A: Yes.
Q: --your dog can get out at any time. Correct?
A: As I explained to you already, I thought in detail, normally I sit at the gate every morning when I go to play golf; I wait till the gate starts closing before I drive out of the gate every morning.
Q: To make sure the dog doesn't leave.
A: To make sure the dog doesn't leave.
Q: You could have done so on this occasion. Correct?
A: I didn't need to.
Q: You could have exited, waited to see that the dog wasn't coming out. When the gate closed, you could have parked in your normal spot on Ashford. Correct?
A: Why would I, since I wasn't going anywhere. So I could just step out of the car, which took me a matter of seconds, and say, "Come on Chachi. Don't go anywhere."
Q: But you could have done so. Correct?
MR. BAKER: It's physically possible.
THE WITNESS: k would have been stupid to do so.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: In fact that's what you usually did?
A: Correct?
A: No. Because I don't usually park my car and walk back in.
Q: When you park your car on Ashford, how do you get into the house?
A: I push the gate open.
Q: And you could have done so that evening. Correct?
A: I didn't want to do that so--that evening. I didn't want to chase my dog.
Q: I understand what you're saying, but there was nothing to prevent you from doing so. Correct?
A: No, there wasn't.
Q: Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: What is the total amount of time that you can estimate for me, Mr. Simpson, that that gate remains open such that the dog could get out?
A: I don't know.
Q: Is it more than 60 seconds?
A: I don't think so.
Q: Is it more than 30 seconds?
A: Possibly.
Q: Between 30 and 60 seconds?
A: Yes.
Q: Does the gate work the same way now as it did in June of 1994?
A: I believe so.
MR. PETROCELLI: I am going to attach as the next exhibit in order Exhibit 42.
(Plaintiffs' Exhibit 42 was marked for identification by the reporter and is attached hereto.)
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
This is a picture of your Ford Bronco, correct, the one you had in 1994?
A: I believe so.
Q: That's exactly how you parked it when you last parked it on the evening of June 12. Correct?
A: I can't say that.
Q: Does it appear to be the way you parked it?
A: Yeah, approximately, yes.
Q: You don't have any reason to believe that it's in a different location than where you last left it. Correct?
A: Correct.
MR. GELBLUM: That's trial Exhibit 137, for the record.
MR. BLASIER: 137? Thank you.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: What does that note say?
A: I really can't read it. I need glasses--
MR. BAKER: It's a communication to my client. I don't intend to give it to you.
MR. PETROCELLI: Passing notes during the deposition?
MR. BAKER: Yes.
MR. PETROCELLI: Why?
MR. BAKER: Because I want to communicate with my client.
THE WITNESS: Can't read it, though.
MR. PETROCELLI: What is the next exhibit? 44?
THE REPORTER: 43.
MR. GELBLUM: Trial Exhibit 136. (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 43 was marked for identification by the reporter and is attached hereto.)
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Mr. Simpson, I am going to show youth next exhibit, No. 43. Also the color copy that I have. Do you recognize what's in the exhibit?
A: It appears to be my car.
Q: In your driveway at Rockingham. Right?
A: Correct.
Q: The "car" being the Bentley?
A: Yes.
Q: The car in the front. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Whose car is the one in the back?
A: My daughter's, it appears to be.
Q: What car is that?
A: What is it, a Saab, I believe.
Q: That's what she had in June of '94?
A: Yes.
Q: Is the Bentley depicted in this photograph in the location where you last parked it on the evening of June
A: It appears to be.
Q: Is that where you normally park
A: Yes.
Q: And when you left the premises that evening, was--were there any cars--
A: No.
Q: --in the driveway?
A: Well, my Bentley.
Q: Other than the Bentley?
A: No.
Q: Arnelle's car was not there?
A: No.
Q: When you left the golf-- the white golf ball bag and that bluish bag outside the Bentley after you finished hitting golf balls, was it right out the other side of the trunk there in the back of the car?
A: What does that mean? I don't know--
Q: Where exactly did you leave the two bags in reference to your Bentley?
A: I would say roughly--this is just not a good picture to show you that on. I'd be estimating on this.
Q: Behind the Bentley. Correct?
A: Behind the Bentley over near the glass.
Q: How many feet behind the Bentley?
A: I don't know.
Q: Where Arnelle's car is currently situated?
A: Possibly. Yeah, possibly in that area, near there, yes.
Q: Was it within 10 feet of the Bentley?
A: I don't know.
Q: Or closer?
A: I really couldn't tell you. But I know it was near the grass and the Bentley, somewhere between the grass and the Bentley.
Q: Was it farther from the Bentley than the back of Arnelle's car as depicted in this photo?
A: I can't tell how her car's parked there. I really can't.
Q: Was it close to the garage?
A: If you gave me another picture. I can give you a much better example. This picture has-- no way of showing you what's going on with this picture.
Q: Well, if I had another picture handy, I would show it to you, but l don't have one at my disposal.
A: I can't work from this picture and tell you.
Q: But your best memory then is how many feet from the back of the Bentley did you leave those two bags?
A: I don't have any estimate.
Q: Is it less than 10 feet, though?
A: I don't know.
Q: Could have been more?
A: It could have been.
Q: You have no recollection?
A: No
(Discussion held off the record.)
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: I am going to show you as the next exhibit in order, Exhibit 44--
MR. GELBLUM: Trial Exhibit 141. (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 44 was marked for identification by the reporter and is attached hereto.)
THE WITNESS: May I communicate in private with my lawyer?
MR. BAKER: Yes.
(Discussion held between the witness and counsel outside the hearing of the reporter.)
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: I will show you the color photo, too, Mr. Simpson. What are you pointing to, Mr. Baker?
MR. BAKER: I was pointing to the numbers. It appears--because it's such a poor photo, it appears it's off a video.
MR. PETROCELLI: Is that what it looks like?
MR. BAKER: It does to me.
MR. PETROCELLI: Probably right.
Q: What is this a picture of, Exhibit 44?
A: Part of my kitchen.
Q: The way it looked in June of 1994?
A: To what degree are you asking me that?
Q: I mean, is that the condition--
A: That's the configuration, yes.
Q: Where in the kitchen--
MR. PETROCELLI: You want to elucidate what this is, Mr. Blasier?
MR. BLASIER: I think it's a police picture.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Where in this photograph, Mr. Simpson, did you--if you can tell by this photograph, were you standing when you noticed the spot of blood on your left pinkie?
A: I can't tell by this photograph.
Q: The area is not depicted in this photograph?
A: Correct.
Q: And in what direction of the kitchen were You standing?
A: I believe--I could have been at this sink (Indicating), but I'm pretty confident I was at this sink over here (Indicating).
Q: Beyond the bottom right-hand corner. Is that right?
A: Correct.
Q: Where was Kaelin looking for the flashlight?
A: He was inside this cupboard over here (Indicating).
Q: Over there?
A: Yeah.
Q: Where did you get the paper towel to apply it to the blood on your finger?
A: It was over there by the sink (Indicating).
Q: There is another sink in this area here (Indicating)?
A: Yes.
MR. BREWER: Can you identify for the record where the witness is pointing?
MR. PETROCELLI: Sure. He is pointing to the area to the right of where the picture cuts off.
Q: There appears to be a kitchen table and some chairs?
A: Yes.
Q: And to the right of that is a sink area. Right?
A: Correct.
Q: Okay. Thank you. Did you, after you came home from the recital, go anyplace off of your property in your car other than McDonald's?
MR. BAKER: And so I am clear, are you talking about the Bentley as contrasted to the Bronco?
MR. PETROCELLI: Either car. I mean, he said he pulled the Bronco out and parked it--
MR. BAKER: Right. And that's off the property.
MR. PETROCELLI: Not counting that. Q: Did you travel anyplace off of the property in one of your cars from the time you got back from the recital up until the time you left for McDonald's?
A: No.
Q: Did you get in the car to go someplace and then change your mind?
A: I was--by the time I got in my car, I had changed my mind.
Q: a mind which car did you get into?
A: The Bentley, I believe it was, but I had changed my mind before I got -- I'm sorry. The Bronco, but I changed my mind before I got into it.
Q: When you got into the Bronco, it was parked where?
A: On Ashford.
Q: And you got into the Bronco to go where?
A: I had already changed my mind. I got in the Bronco to bring it inside my gate.
Q: When you went out to the Bronco, you were contemplating going where before you changed your mind?
A: Before I went out to the Bronco, I was contemplating going to Paula's.
Q: And what caused you to change your mind?
A: I was a little tired, and I hadn't heard from her, so I just decided not to go.
Q: And you didn't go.
A: And I didn't go.
Q: At that moment in time did you call her to see if she was home?
A: I might have, but I don't know. I might have.
Q: Did you tell Detectives Vannatter and Lange that you were going to her house?
A: Yeah.
Q: Was that a true statement?
A: Well, I was going to her house, but I didn't go.
Q: In the sense that you just described?
A: Yes.
Q: You didn't tell Vannatter and Lange that you called Paula from your car?
A: Well, I may have, yes.
Q: Why did you tell them that?
A: Because I was very tired, and the two nights were running into one another, for me, Friday night--I'm sorry -- Saturday night and Sunday night, and at the time I may have been somewhat confused. But obviously there's no phone record in my car at that time calling Paula, when obviously Saturday night when I was driving to her house, I called her in my car.
Q: Mr. Simpson, is there anything else that you said to Vannatter and Lange during that police statement which you now know to be incorrect or now believe to be incorrect?
A: I don't know that that was incorrect.
MR. BAKER: Don't answer that question.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Excuse me?
A: I'm not sure that that was incorrect. I don't believe that was incorrect.
Q: Is there anything that you said to Vannatter and Lange when you gave your police statement that you now think is incorrect?
A: I didn't think that was incorrect.
Q: Is there anything that you said to them that you think now is incorrect?
A: I would have to read the police report.
Q: Does anything come to your mind?
A: Not immediately. You know, not immediately, no.
MR. BAKER: Do you want him to take the time to read it?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: No. I just want to know whether you, as you sit here today testifying, are aware of anything that you said to Vannatter and Lange that you since have learned or discovered or believe to have been incorrect.
A: I don't think so. When they were talking to me, I was very tired and I was just trying to recall--when they were asking me questions, I was trying to answer them as honestly as I could, but sometimes--like I at one point was confused if I got the flowers after the concert, which would have been impossible, but that was just a condition of--the condition I was m.
Q: When was the last time you read that statement?
MR. BAKER: Well. . . Yeah, you can answer that. That you actually read it, OJ.
THE WITNESS: I may have read it two weeks ago.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Is that the last time you've looked at it?
A: I don't think I read the whole thing. I just looked at it two weeks ago.
Q: The last time that you've seen it. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: What did you look at?
A: I don't know. I just--
MR. BAKER: It's been on the table here. You're excluding that?
MR. PETROCELLI: Yeah.
Q: Other than if you have seen it-- well, since the deposition has begun, other than maybe seeing it in my possession here or your lawyers', have you actually studied it or read it or reviewed it--
A: No.
Q: --at all?
A: No. I think I just skimmed over it at that time, but I--
Q: Two weeks ago?
A: It may have been two weeks ago. It may have been around the time I was doing--whenever I was doing the video.
Q: When you skimmed it, did you notice anything that was incorrect in it?
A: When you say "incorrect," it was just I was tired then and my perceptions on some things I don't think were as clear as I had wished, but fortunately, and I guess maybe unfortunately, virtually everything that we talked about in that 33 minutes we talked about after and before and, of course, they didn't record that. So it was whatever questions they had that they weren't clear on was cleared up with Vannatter and Lange before and after.
Q: Let's talk about that. You had mentioned that or alluded to that a couple days ago.
A: Yes.
Q: What did you say to Vannatter and Lange that's not contained in the 33-minute statement?
A: I answered all their questions. Whatever I questions they asked me that's not in there, I answered. Q: When that statement. the written statement, was-- it was a tape-recorded statement. Correct?
A: That portion of it was, yes.
Q: And you knew that it was being tape-recorded. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: They told you. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, was there--had the discussion with n Vannatter and Lange begun earlier, and then at some point they said, "OJ., we want to start taping you?" Is that what happened?
A: Yes.
Q: And then after the tape went off, did they tell you that they were shutting off the tape?
A: Yes.
Q: And then did the discussion continue?
A: Yes.
Q: And how long was the discussion with Vannatter and Lange before the tape went on?
A: In the car going downtown, in the room, whatever time that was. My concept of time was just not functional that day.
Q: Both Vannatter and Lange were in the car with you going downtown?
A: I don't know if both were in the car with me. It may have been just Vannatter. I'm not sure.
Q: Anybody else besides Vannatter and you in the car?
A: If it would have been, it would have been police officers.
Q: When you got --You went directly from Rockingham to the police station. Correct.
A: Correct.
Q: And then you went to a room--
A: Yes.
Q: --with Vannatter?
A: Yes. I believe Vannatter or Lange. At the time I wasn't registering who they were.
Q: When you got to the police station, Mr. Simpson, you went directly to this room. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: No stops in between. Correct?
A: I don't recall.
Q: When you got to the room, who was there?
A: They were there and some other guys were coming in and out, I gather police officers, and then at one point my lawyers came in, and they left the room.
Q: "They" being whom?
A: Whatever police officers were there.
Q: You don't remember?
A: No
Q: Now, did you have a discussion with-- Was Lange in the room, too?
A: You know, there were guys coming in and out, so I can't really--I couldn't register that at this point.
Q: I will get back to that. In the car with Vannatter, was he in the back seat with you?
A: I don't think so, but I really don't remember. I don't recall.
Q: You were in the back seat. Right?
A: Yes, I was in the back seat.
Q: He was in the front seat.?
A: Yes, I believe so.
Q: And he asked you questions about the facts and circumstances surrounding Nicole's death?
A: Yes. He was saying, "We got some problems," basically, and he was talking.
Q: Have you ever seen any written statement of the discussion you had with Vannatter and Lange in the car?
A: No.
Q: Have you ever put down that information in writing?
A: Me?
Q: Yeah.
A: No.
Q: Have you ever seen any written statement of your discussion with Vannatter and Lange in the police department room other than what's on the tape?
A: No.
Q: And did you ever make a memo of that, write those statements down or your thoughts about that?
A: Write them down, no, and the rest I think would be attorney-client privilege.
Q: "And the rest" meaning what?
A: Whatever conversations I had with my attorneys.
Q: Apart from telling your attorneys what happened there, I just want to know if there is a document, a piece of paper, a tape recording, a memorandum that sets forth what you say happened in these unrecorded portions of your discussions with these two police officers.
A: Not that I know of.
Q: Okay. Tell me now what Vannatter asked you and what you said in the car.
A: I don't know. He was just talking about some problems, and I can't-- I don't--I can't recall specifically in the car, specifically after, before and after the tape interview. I mean, in general I do, but specifically I can't tell you, but in general I could.
Q: So what you are saying is that right now you can't separate out what was said in the car versus what was said before and after the tape recording. Is that right?
A: Yeah. My timing, I was kind of in a bad way that morning.
Q: When you got to the police department room, did there come a time when you sat down with Vannatter and Lange, and your lawyers were out of the room, and it was just the three of you?
A: Yes.
Q: And then you began to talk. Right?
A: I was talking whatever they were asking me all the time.
MR. BAKER: Wait a minute. Then he began to talk. I don't--
MR. PETROCELLI: I don't mean it that way. Let me withdraw it. Q: Then a discussion among the three of you began where they were asking you questions. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, when that discussion began is that when the tape went on?
A: The first time, yes.
Q: What do you mean by "the time"?
A: Well, at one point they started the tape, and they said something and asked me if I understood it. I said "Yeah, because you guys say they can't be in here." And then they stopped the stopped the tape and started, "Oh, come on, OJ., we 're just trying to get this thing over with so you can go home and we can do things," and da, da, da, da. And I said ''Okay," and they got me a Coke and started all over again, and that's what happened.
Q: So what you are saying is that they began to tape you, and then the tape stopped and you had this kind of discussion off the tape. Right?
A: Yeah.
Q: And they got you a Coke--
A: Yeah.
Q: --they came back in, and you started up again. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, is the first part of this conversation before they turned off the tape, do you know whether that is reflected in the police statement?
A: No, it's not.
Q: It's not?
A: No.
Q: Okay. So tell me, then, what was said during that time, as best as you can recall, before the tape was turned off?
A: They were just reading me the rights, and "You have the right to have an attorney present" and whatever, and my-- "and you understand that?" And I said, "Well, you guys tell me I can have an attorney present." And they stopped the tape and started, "Oh, come on, OJ. Look, if you want them in here-- we're just trying to rush this thing so you can go back home. Can we get you anything. Do you want a Coke? Do you want to talk? You don't really have to talk. I said, "Hey, guys, I'll answer whatever questions you want." They got me a Coke, you know, everybody settled down again, and then they started over again.
Q: Did you agree to talk with him without your lawyer?
A: Yes.
Q: Did they say to you, "We want to rush this thing"?
A: Well, they said that, you know, "You look tired. You want to go home, I know, and we want to get you out of here," words to that effect, yes.
Q: And you were tired. Right?
A: Oh, yes.
Q: And you wanted to go home. Right?
A: I wanted to see my kids. I wanted to go home. I wanted to--I don't know what I wanted to do.
Q: So in terms of information that you gave about the case, nothing happened in that part of the tape. Is that right?
A: Correct.
Q: And before they turned on the tape, there wasn't any information given out about the case either. Right?
MR. BAKER: You mean between the time of the first tape and the time the second tape started? Is that what you're saying? Or are you saying at any time in that room?
MR. PETROCELLI: Let me start over again.
Q: I am trying to find out whether there was information that you gave them in answer to their questions about the case, so to speak, that's not on this tape.
A: Yes.
Q: And so far you've told me that this first Portion, when you guys were off the record, wasn't really about the facts of the case. Correct?
A: Correct, yeah.
Q: So, now, before--after they got you the Coke, they turned the tape on and the statement is recorded. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: After that tape went off, they turned it off, what happened next?
A: They talked to me for a while. Then my lawyers came in. Then they took me to take blood, and they talked to me all the way there. When I was sitting there waiting to take blood, they talked and questioned me. Then finally they took me back to my lawyers.
Q: Now, from the time that they turned the tape off until the time they delivered you to your lawyers, during that time tell me what they asked you and what you said about the case.
A: Well, they--we talked again, because I don't think they asked me who I went to McDonald's with on the tape. We had talked about all of that before they started the tape. And I'm not sure; you can look at the transcript, but I don't believe they really talked to me about--they knew that, and that's why they didn't talk about it on the tape, because from the interview before that, they talked to me about everything that I had done. Then after, they talked to me again about my luggage, where was it, continued to talk to me about my cut hand and just--as I said, it's hard to --you know, it's hard to differentiate because they talked to me about everything, and all the-- when I was in jail and I was reading the police report, I noticed that in that tape a lot of things weren't in there that we discussed. As I said, who I went to McDonald's with I don't believe is in there, and they certainly knew that, because we discussed it. My luggage, we certainly discussed. Everything. I mean, we talked about everything. It's just hard for me to differentiate what was on the tape and what was off the tape, because I was trying to be helpful and I was answering everything they asked me. At no point in time did I say, "I can't answer that" or "Go get a lawyer. I won't talk about that."
Q: Before the tape went on the very first time, you said that you had told --you had talked to them all about the things they were asking you.
A: Yes.
Q: When you talked to them before the tape went on all about the things they were asking you, was there anybody else present?
A: Vannatter, Lange. I think there was another guy coming in and out.
Q: Were your lawyers there?
A: Possibly from time to time, because it was just a general conversation going on, and possibly.
Q: And who were those lawyers?
A: Leroy Taft and Howard Weitzman.
Q: So Weitzman and Taft heard or participated in part of this conversation.
A: Possibly. I'm not sure because when they were there, they were talking to them and not so much to me, and when they weren't there, they were just talking to me.
Q: But when you were being asked things like about going to McDonald's with Kato and your luggage and all these other subjects before the tape went on, Taft and Weitzman were there part of the time?
A: I'm not sure. Possibly. As I said, things were--you know, if they'd be talking to Weitzman or Taft, they'd go here, and then they'd talk to me, and people were moving around, and I was just not paying attention to what everybody was doing.
Q: Weitzman and Taft during this time period were in a different room than you?
A: Once--yeah, They came in and out of the room that I was in, yes.
Q: And is it your sense of this that before the tape went on, you had in effect told them everything that you knew, what they had asked you?
A: I can't say "Everything." I don't know what I knew. I mean, I answered the questions what I was doing basically.
Q: They had questioned you pretty completely on what your whereabouts were?
A: Yes.
MR. BAKER: I don't know what "pretty completely" means.
THE WITNESS: I don't know "pretty completely.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: They asked you a lot of questions about your whereabouts, about your luggage, about McDonald's, all those sorts of issues, before the tape went on for the first time. Is that right?
A: Correct.
Q: And to this day you have never seen a statement of that part of the interview. Is that right?
A: No, but I think it's pretty apparent, if you look at the interview, that they knew all of those things by the way they asked me the question in the interview, because I had already told them that.
Q: And to this day you have never seen a statement of that part of the interview. Is that correct?
A: That's correct.
Q: What did you tell the officers off the tape about McDonald's?
A: Told them who I went to McDonald's with and essentially everything that's on the tape: Approximately what time we left, and whatever's on the tape about McDonald's is what I told them.
Q: What I am asking you, Mr. Simpson, is to tell me, since I don't have a document where I can read it, what you said to them. Not the description of the subject matters, but what you said.
A: I don't recall two years later my words, what I said. I told them--I answered them approximately what time I went to McDonald's. I answered them who I went to McDonald's with.
Q: You told them, for example, that you went to McDonald's with Kato Kaelin. Is that right?
A: That's correct.
Q: And what time did you tell them that you went to McDonald's?
A: I told them approximately 9:00 o'clock.
Q: And what time did you tell them that you came back from McDonald's?
A: I don't know if they asked that question.
Q: Did they ask you where you were before you went to McDonald's?
A: I'm sure they did.
Q: What did you tell them?
A: At home.
Q: Did they ask you when you got home after the recital?
A: They possibly could have asked me that, yes.
Q: And what did you tell them.
A: Probably I didn't--
MR. BAKER: Don't guess or speculate--
THE WITNESS: Well, I can't say.
MR. BAKER:--what you probably told them.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Excuse me?
A: I can't tell you what I probably told them. I'm sorry. Whatever time I got home, whatever my recollection was at that time, I told them.
Q: Did you tell them that you went out to find Paula Barbieri?
A: I might have told them I was going to see Paula, yes.
Q: Did you tell them that you got in the car and started to go?
A: Possibly I could have told them that, yes.
Q: Did you tell the officers where you were when you came back from McDonald's?
A: Whatever they asked me, I told them.
Q: Did they ask you that question?
A: I'm sure they did.
Q: And what did you tell them.
A: "I was at home."
Q: Did they ask you what you were doing at home?
A: No. They kept interrupting me whenever I was speaking and would ask me another question, and I would answer.
Q: Did they ask you when you left to go to the airport?
A: I believe so.
Q: And what did you tell them?
A: I believe approximately 11:00 o'clock.
Q: Did they ask you where you were from 9:00 o'clock to 11:00 o'clock?
A: I don't know.
Q: 10:00 o'clock to 11:00 o'clock?
A: I don't know if they said--asked me that specifically.
Q: Do you remember telling them where you were between 10:00 and 11:00 o'clock?
A: I remember answering every question they asked me.
Q: What did you tell them about where you were between 10:00 and 11:00 o'clock on June 12th?
MR. BAKER: I think, first of all, he testified he doesn't remember if they asked that question, number one; and, number two, I think you asked it at least three or four times.
MR. PETROCELLI: Mr. Baker, the difficulty here is that he has said that he told them all about the case, in effect, before the tape recorder went on, and there isn't any document, and I need to find out what he said to them.
MR. BAKER: I've given you wide latitude, but I think when you have no foundation for it, it goes beyond the pale.
MR. PETROCELLI: Wide latitude. These are just simple questions.
MR. BAKER: Well, what I am saying about wide latitude is wide latitude to ask it three and four times.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Can you tell me what you told Vannatter and Lange, before the tape recorder went on or after the tape recorder went off, where you were between 10:00 and 11:00?
A: Whatever they asked me, I told them. Whatever they asked me, I told them. I recall that, yes.
Q: What did you say?
A: I don't recall--
MR. BAKER: If you have a recollection, tell him.
THE WITNESS: I don't recall specifically what they asked me. I do know that the subject matters were who did I go to McDonald's with. I told them that. The subject matters were, you know, approximately what time I got home from the recital. The subject matters were my luggage. All of those things they asked me, and I don't see them on their police report.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: That's why I am asking you to tell me.
A: Tell you what?
Q: What you said, because--
A: I told them I went to McDonald's at approximately 9:00 o'clock. I told them I got home after the recital. They could check. Whatever time it was over. And I don't recall today if I knew, if I was clear to them that it was 7:00 o'clock, but probably I told them it was around 7:00 o'clock. I told them what luggage I took to Chicago. I told them what luggage I brought back from Chicago. All of those questions they asked, I answered, and many of them I don't see on their police report, so--and I don't think--they're 17 and 20 year detectives, so I think it's obvious they asked those questions, and I answered them.
Q: What I want to know is what answers you gave.
A: To what? Ask me the question like they asked me, and I'll give you an answer.
Q: Where were you between 10:00 and 11:00?
A: I don't know if they asked me that question. I was home.
Q: If they did ask you, what did you say?
A: I don't recall if they asked me, so I don't know what I said. Why don't you ask me?
Q: I just did. Where--
A: Why don't you ask me?
MR. BAKER: Time out. We are going to take a break right here.
MR. PETROCELLI: You know--
MR. BAKER: We are going to take a break right here.
MR. PETROCELLI: I don't think it's appropriate to take a break, because we are in the middle of an examination, Mr. Baker, but I see that I can't stop you.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 10:34.
(Recess.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record now, and the time is approximately 10:54.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: We have had a somewhat lengthy break. I was questioning you about what you said to Vannatter and Lange that was not recorded on the tape, and I want to go back to that. Tell me what you told them where you were between 10:00 and 11:00 on June 12.
A: I don't recall. I do not recall them specifically asking me that. I can't recall what my specific answer would have been to them then.
Q: Do you recall them generally asking you that?
A: I just recall that everything that they asked me, I answered them as truthfully as I could.
Q: And what I want to know is what you said to them, so I have a record of it.
A: I just can't recall now exactly what I told them, but whatever they asked me, I answered them.
Q: Do you know anything that would refresh your recollection as to what you said?
A: No.
Q: What did you tell them about the cuts on your hand?
A: I told--
MR. BAKER: What do you mean, "cuts" on his hand? There is no evidence of cuts on his hand on the 13th. There is evidence of a cut.
MR. PETROCELLI: First of all, he said cuts on his hand before, but I won't trouble--waste time here.
MR. BAKER: All right.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: What did you tell them about the cuts on your hand or cut on your hand?
A: That I cut my hand in Chicago.
Q: What else did you tell them?
A: That I saw some blood before I left, and once again this is may have, but I assumed I had cut my hand then.
Q: What did you tell them about how you cut your hand before you went to Chicago?
A: I don't think I told them anything because I don't know how.
Q: And you told them you didn't know how you cut it?
A: I told them I saw blood, and I didn't have any specific memory of cutting my hand, and I never saw a cut.
Q: Did you tell them that you saw the blood coming from some particular part of your hand?
A: I can only assume that I did, yes.
Q: What did you tell them?
A: I don't know specifically here, two years later, what I told them specifically, no.
Q: What did you tell them what time it was when you saw the blood?
A: I don't recall if I did or didn't tell them that. I don't recall that.
Q: What did you tell them about where blood was dropped in, your house, anywhere, in your house?
A: I really don't recall the specifics of that conversation here nearly two years later. I just don't recall the specifics of those conversations, but I do know in general those are things that we talked about during the tape and not during the tape, yes.
Q: Did you ask them to record these portions of the discussion you were having off the tape?
A: I didn't ask them to do anything but tell me what had happened to Nicole and let me go home.
Q: Did they tell you?
A: No.
Q: And you had no idea?
A: Correct.
Q: Did you tell them that you had more than one cut on your hand?
A: I don't believe so.
Q: Did you point out where on your finger you had cut yourself before going to Chicago?
A: No.
Q: Did you point out on your hand or finger where the blood was before you went to Chicago?
A: Possibly.
Q: Did they say to you, "We found blood on your driveway?
A: Yes.
Q: Did they ask you if you had bled on the driveway?
A: Possibly.
Q: What did you tell them?
A: I don't recall. As I say, possibly they asked me, but I don't recall here, two years later, if we had a conversation about that.
Q: Did you tell them that you were positive that the blood they found on your driveway was not your blood?
A: I don't recall getting into that conversation with them.
Q: Did you believe at the time that it was not your blood?
A: I had--I never thought about it at the time. I didn't think anything about it at that time. Not concerning me, anyway.
Q: Did they tell you that they found blood in your Bronco?
A: I don't think so.
Q: Did they tell you that they found blood in your house?
A: I don't believe so.
Q: Did they tell you--
A: They may have. They may have, but I don't believe so.
Q: And on that subject what did you say to them?
A: It wasn't a question, I don't believe. I don't believe it was any question of me.
Q: You don't believe they said that?
A: Say that and--you know, they could have said it. I don't know.
Q: "What did you say to them when they said, "There's blood in your house. We found blood in your house "?
A: I don't recall, but if they said that, I don't know what I would have said. There's nothing for me to say. If they're telling me things, they weren't asking me a question.
Q: Were you shocked to hear that there was blood in your house and on your driveway?
A: I don't know if I heard if they said that. I don't know if I heard that. I was in shock that Nicole was murdered. I don't think any of the rest of this would have shocked me.
Q: That there was blood in your house and your property?
MR. BAKER: Well, I think you're asking for speculation now. He's answered that, and I am going to instruct him not to answer it.
MR. PETROCELLI: I am trying to get to his state of mind at the time so we can see his thinking and what he said.
MR. BAKER: Regardless, don't--
THE WITNESS: State of mind--
MR. BAKER: Don't answer the question. He will reask the question.
MR. PETROCELLI: Yeah, I will reask.
Q: Did they tell you that there was blood at Bundy?
A: I don't think we talked about blood at Bundy. We may have, but I don't recall.
Q: What did you tell them about your luggage?
A: I told them where it was when they asked me where it was.
Q: Where was it?
A: My bag that was with me was there. I thought that the other bag was at the gate because I wasn't aware at the time that they wouldn't let Cathy on the property with it, and I told them I didn't know where my golf clubs were because I didn't wait to take them on the plane with me.
Q: What other bag was at the gate?
A: My Louis Vuitton bag.
Q: And that's what you told them?
A: Yes.
Q: And you said you didn't know where your golf clubs were?
A: Yeah. I didn't think they -- I didn't know if they made the flight or not.
Q: Did they ask you off the tape what all the luggage was that you took to Chicago?
A: No, I don't believe so.
Q: They just asked you where your luggage was. Right?
A: Yes. I believe it was Lange that said, -Boy, that's all the luggage you had?" Because I only had the bag on me, and I told him "No."
Q: You said the Louis Vuitton was at the gate, and you didn't know where your clubs were. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: What about that other piece of luggage? You didn't mention it to them?
A: What other piece of luggage?
Q: That bluish bag that had the wind-breaker and the Maxfli l00s?
A: Yeah, I don't think I viewed that as a I piece of luggage. It was like my golf bag. Everything that was in my golf bag was in my golf bag. To me that wasn't a piece of luggage. Just like my overnight kit is in a separate bag. I don't view that as a separate piece of luggage.
Q: Did they ask you what clothing you were wearing before you went to Chicago?
A: Yes.
Q: What did you tell them?
A: Whatever I was wearing.
Q: What was that that you said to them?
A: I don't recall the specific words. I actually showed Lange what I was wearing.
Q: There at the police station?
A: No. Once we got back to my house.
Q: You had more conversations your house?
A: Yes.
Q: That evening?
A: Yes.
Q: When you--just so I understand the sequence here, Mr. Simpson, when you left the police station, you went back to your office. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And you were not with Lange and Vannatter at your office. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: Then you went back when they said you could go back to your house at Rockingham. Right?
A: That's correct.
Q: And when you went back to Rockingham, the police were there still?
A: Yes.
Q: Lange and Vannatter?
A: Certainly Lange. I don't totally recall if Vannatter was there or not.
Q: And you had a conversation alone with Tom Lange in your house--
A: No.
Q: --about clothing.
A: No.
Q: You were not alone?
A: Correct.
Q: Who was with you?
A: Skip Taft and Bob Kardashian.
Q: All the time that you talked to Lange at your house on Rockingham was in the presence of Taft and Kardashian?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: Back to the police station. What did you tell them about your best judgment about what caused the blood to be on your hand before you went to Chicago?
A: I told them I didn't know.
Q: Excuse me?
A: I told them I didn't know.
Q: That's what you said: You didn't know?
A: Yes.
Q: Between then and today have you given some thought to what caused that blood to be on your finger?
A: No.
Q: And you still don't know. Right?
A: That's correct.
Q: Did they ask you about knives off the tape?
A: I don't believe so.
Q: Did you tell them anything about knives?
A: I don't believe so.
Q: Did they ask you about guns?
A: I think I may have brought it up, and then they asked me about it, yes.
Q: What did you tell them?
A: I don't recall. If you let me read the police station statement, I'll tell you.
Q: I am only talking about off the tape now.
A: I don't know if we talked about it off the tape.
MR. BAKER: It was hard to tell whether you were talking about on or off the tape.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: All of these questions concern your comment earlier this morning that there was all this discussion off the tape, and I am just trying to get what it is. So I am not talking about what's on the tape now.
A: Okay.
Q: Did they ask you about Nicole?
A: Yes.
Q: And your relationship with Nicole?
A: No.
Q: Did they ask when you last saw her?
A: I believe so.
Q: And what did you tell the?
A: Well, as of--well, at the recital.
Q: Did they ask whether you spoke to Nicole?
A: I don't know.
Q: Did they ask when you last spoke to her?
A: I don't know.
Q: If you had any telephone calls after the recital?
A: I don't know.
Q: Did they ask you if you were angry toward her?
A: Possibly.
Q: What did you say?
A: No.
Q: Did they ask you whether there was any conflict between the two of you at that point in your lives?
A: I don't know. When I say, -I don't know, you know, I know certain things they asked on the tape, and I can't recall if they asked me also off the tape. So you're telling me you're talking about off the tape.
Q: Off the tape, right.
A: That's what I've been doing, yes.
Q: You are trying your best to tell me what was discussed off the tape.
A: Yes.
Q: And on the subject of Nicole, you don't remember if they asked you about your relationship with her. Is that right?
A: Correct.
Q: Can you tell me anything else that you and Lange and Vannatter discussed off the tape before you got to your house at Rockingham that night?
A: I can't recall right now, no.
Q: Now, at the Rockingham property, you said you were talking with Lange, Taft and Kardashian, and you said something about you showed Lange the clothing you had worn the night before. Is that right?
A: He asked.
Q: He asked you?
A: Yes.
Q: And what did you say? A: I took him to it and showed him.
Q: Where did you take him? A: My closet.
Q: And what did you show him in your closet?
A: Whatever I was wearing.
Q: Excuse me?
A: Basically what I was wearing.
Q: What did you pull out and show him?
A: I showed him some black pants; I showed him a sweater; I showed him --I didn't know which Polo shirt because I got a lot of white ones, a golf shirt; I showed him the blue pants that were laying in the bathroom; I showed him the shoes, and I showed him a coat.
Q: Coat?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, the black pants you showed him because you had worn that to where?
A: The recital.
Q: And the coat, the recital?
A: No. To McDonald's.
Q: You wore a coat to McDonald's?
A: Yes.
Q: What coat did you wear?
A: Just a jacket.
Q: Now, you were dressed when you went to McDonald's in the golf pants and the golf shirt?
A: Yes.
Q: White socks and Reeboks. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And you also put on a coat?
A: Yes.
Q: That you got from your house?
A: Yeah.
Q: And when you went--came back from McDonald's and went into the house, did you take your coat with you?
A: Yes.
Q: The shoes that you showed Lange were what shoes?
A: Reeboks.
Q: The ones you had worn McDonald's?
A: Yes.
Q: The sweater that you showed Lange was what sweater?
A: Maybe just a black sweater I have.
Q: That you wore to the recital?
A: Yes.
Q: And the blue pants you showed Lange were what pants?
A: Golf pants.
Q: That you were wearing when you went to McDonald's?
A: Yes.
Q: The Polo shirt that you showed Lange was what shirt?
A: It was just a golf shirt, the one--I believe I showed him the one--I believe it was--I can't recall right now if it was a Polo shirt I wore or a golf shirt that I wore underneath my sweater at the recital or not. I just don't recall.
Q: And you said another--identified in your list a golf shirt. Is that--
A: Yes.
Q: -the same shirt or different shirt?
A: It could have been the same shirt. I'm not sure.
Q: The shirt you were wearing that evening when you went to McDonald's?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you show him any black socks?
A: No.
Q: Did you have any other discussion with Lange then other than looking at these clothing and showing it to him?
MR. BAKER: Now, are we talking just about the clothing and just while he was in the closet? Because I'm not sure what your question encompasses.
MR. PETROCELLI: I'll withdraw it. Q: I want to know what else you discussed with Lange at your house other than what you just said to me.
A: At that time, that the police were honest because they didn't take my money. That the searchers obviously were honest; they didn't take my money.
Q: Did you say anything else?
A: I don't--I can't recall.
Q: Did he ask you any other questions?
A: He asked me if he could take the Reeboks.
Q: What did you say?
A: Sure.
Q: Did he ask you anything else?
A: Not that I can recall.
Q: Now, did you have any other discussions with Lange or Vannatter that day other than what you've already told me?
A: Not that I can recall right now, no.
Q: And what about the rest of the week?
A: I don't believe so.
Q: So have you now told me everything that you can recall telling Lange and Vannatter off the tape?
A: Everything I can recall, yes.
Q: Did you ask--When was the first time that day you encountered, the 13th- Lange or Vannatter?
A: Right after I got to my residence.
Q: And who did you encounter?
A: I believe it was Vannatter.
Q: And that was what time?
A: I don't know.
Q: That was the 13th. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: In the afternoon. Right?
A: Yes.
MR. BAKER: You don't know, tell him you don't know. Don't shake your head like you don't know and then answer "Yes."
THE WITNESS: I don't know.
MR. BAKER: Okay. Fair enough.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You shouldn't just mimic what your lawyer says, too. You should simply say what you know.
MR. BAKER: Obviously, but the verbal response and what he had indicated in his non-verbal communication were different; that's all. And he in answer either way. Whatever his recollection is fine with me.
MR. PETROCELLI: Q: When you talked to Vannatter at the time, did you ask him the details of how Nicole had died?
A: Yes.
Q: What did you ask him?
A: I said, "What happened?"
Q: What did he say?
A: "We don't know. We're trying to find out."
Q: Is that all he told you?
A: Well, I asked numerous times during the course of that day, and their answers was always the same thing.
Q: And did you ask Lange the same thing?
A: Yes.
Q: You asked both of them numerous times, and they said they were trying to find out?
A: "Trying to find out, OJ. We don't know. We're trying to find out."
Q: When you pulled the Bronco in to take out the golf clubs and pack them up, pulled it in from Ashford, as you said, did you then immediately pull it out and park it?
A: I believe so.
Q: Before you actually packed the clubs into the cover bag?
A: That may not be correct. I'm pretty sure I probably packed the clubs before I pulled the car out.
Q: And then you went out to the Bronco and then parked it?
A: At one point, yes.
Q: How long after you finished packing the clubs did you park the Bronco?
A: It could have been immediately. It could have been a few minutes. I really don't know. I don't recall.
Q: Do you know what time it was?
A: Somewhere between 7:00 and 9:00.
Q: It was before you went to McDonald's. Correct?
A: Yes. Yes.
Q: And when you parked it before you went to McDonald's, you parked it on Rockingham--
A: Correct.
Q: --where we saw in the picture. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: Didn't you tell Vannatter and Lange that you were having weird thoughts about Nicole?
A: At that time, no, I don't think so.
Q: At what time?
A: At that time I don't believe I said that to them.
Q: When you were talking to them in the police station on the tape or off the tape, did you tell them that you were having weird thoughts about Nicole?
A: No. I think-I may have said something to that effect in answering a question that they asked me, yes.
MR. PETROCELLI: I would prefer that you not--
THE WITNESS: I don't need to look at it.
MR. PETROCELLI:--show the witness any documents while I am questioning him.
THE WITNESS: I don't need to look at it.
MR. BAKER: He's entitled if he needs it to refresh his recollection.
MR. PETROCELLI: If he needs it, we'll find out.
Q: You said, "I may have said something to that effect in answering a question that they asked me, yes."
A: Yeah.
Q: Tell me what you said.
A: I don't know specifically. If you want me to read it, I'll read it and tell you specifically, but I don't have any recollection specifically what I said right now.
Q: Can you recall at all what you said?
A: No. I know it was in--I believe it was in relation to maybe taking a lie detector test. I'm not sure.
Q: What did you mean by "weird thoughts?"
A: Well, I'd been married for 17 years, and from time to time in those 17 years you have thoughts.
Q: What kind of thoughts did you mean when you told them that you had had weird thoughts about Nicole?
A: I don't know at that particular time if there was anything specific in my head, but from time to time you do have thoughts, yes.
Q: Now, one of those weird thoughts that you had in mind when you said that to Vannatter and Lange was the thought of killing Nicole. Right?
A: No, that's not correct.
Q: Well, what you meant when you were telling them about weird thoughts was that sometimes, you know, you felt so angry at her that you felt like killing her. Isn't that right?
A: No, that's not correct.
Q: They told you--they asked you --I think you just testified that this topic came up in the context of a question about a lie detector or polygraph?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: And your point in telling them that you were having weird thoughts was that the weird thoughts might somehow come out in the lie detector test.
Q: Right?
A: No. My point was I didn't understand a lie detector test and I didn't understand what they go after in a lie detector test, and once I had a better l understanding, which I did, I would be happy to do one.
Q: Did you do one?
A: We offered one.
Q: Excuse me?
A: We offered it to the prosecution, yes.
Q: To whom?
A: To the prosecution office. I guess Marcia Clark and Gil Garcetti.
Q: You personally did or your lawyers did?
A: My lawyer did.
Q: When did they do that?
A: Oh, I imagine a day or so after that Monday. But that week, I'm sure it was.
Q: And what did they say?
A: They declined.
Q: You didn't take a test on the 13th. Right?
A: Correct.
Q: And you didn't want to then. Correct?
A: I had to talk to my lawyers about it. And then they didn't want me to either.
Q: You were concerned that these weird thoughts that you might have --Strike that. You were concerned that the weird thoughts that you have had about Nicole might somehow affect your polygraph test. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And for that reason you were not comfortable with taking it at that time. Correct?
A: For that reason I wanted to understand what polygraph test meant and the mechanics of a lie detector test, yes.
Q: Because you wanted to make sure that the weird thoughts didn't unfairly come out in the test results. Right?
A: If done fairly, I felt obviously it would be no problem, but I didn't at that time understand the polygraph test.
Q: Now, did you offer or agree to take a polygraph test about whether or not you killed Ron Goldman?
A: They didn't ask me. They just asked me, would I take a polygraph test. I don't think they were individualizing either one.
Q: You never had had any weird thoughts about Ron Goldman. Correct?
A: No.
Q: You never knew Ron Goldman. Right?
A: And I didn't know of him or about him at that time, no.
Q: So there would have been no problem in your thinking in terms of taking a lie detector test concerning the death of Mr. Goldman. Is that right?
MR. BAKER: That's argumentative. Don't answer that.
MR. PETROCELLI: That's not a proper instruction, Mr. Baker.
MR. BAKER: Don't answer that, Mr. Simpson.
MR. PETROCELLI: Argumentative is not appropriate grounds to instruct him, in any event.
MR. BAKER: Well, you can reframe your question.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Didn't you say, "Look, you know, I'm not clear in my mind about these weird thoughts and whether they'll influence the lie detector test on Nicole, but since I could not conceivably have had any weird thoughts about Ron Goldman, I am happy to take the test about Ron Goldman?" Did you say that to him.
MR. BAKER: It is, A, compound and, B, there is no foundation for that at all.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You can answer it.
MR. BAKER: No, don't answer it.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Now, these weird thoughts that you had had about Nicole, they were weird thoughts about violence. Correct?
A: In a sense, one, yes.
Q: One what?
A: One thing that came to mind, yes.
Q: One thing that came to mind was violence. What was that?
A: I kinda at one point thought it would have been nice if Michelle, when Nicole punched her, who was my housekeeper, if Michelle would have punched her back.
Q: Is that the only thought of violence that came up when you said you were having weird thoughts about Nicole?
A: Yeah, that was one of them, yes.
Q: What were the other weird thoughts that you had about Nicole concerning violence?
A: I don't know if it was violence. Something happened in January, and I at one point thought it might have done her some good if she would have been injured during this incident, or caught.
Q: That you thought it might have been good if Nicole had been injured?
A: Injured or caught, yes.
Q: Caught.
A: Yeah.
Q: Now, what I want to know about is what weird thoughts you had in mind when you told the detectives on June 13 about violence by you against about Nicole.
A: I don't think I had any weird thoughts about violence by me towards Nicole. That was not what was on my mind at that time.
Q: No thought of violence by you toward Nicole came up in your thinking when you made that comment?
A: Yes, that's correct.
Q: Is that your testimony?
A: That's correct, yes.
Q: But you did think at that moment in time about Nicole hitting your maid. Is that right?
A: That was one that came up, but in general. It wasn't nothing specific. I just know that in the years that I was with Nicole, that, you know, sometimes you have thoughts, and that was one that came directly to mind at that time.
Q: The first and most prominent thought that came to mind was Nicole striking Michelle, your housekeeper. Is that right?
A: Yes.
Q: What other thoughts came to mind, weird thoughts towards Nicole?
A: I don't think I really gave it much thought after that. It was just I wanted to understand what a polygraph was, and that was one thing that came to mind, yes.
Q: But the question--or the purpose of your meeting there with the detectives was the killing of Nicole. Right.
A: Yes.
Q: What did Nicole striking your housekeeper have to do with that, in your thinking?
A: The purpose of the question they asked was me doing a polygraph test, and I wanted to understand what a polygraph test was, and once it was j81 explained to me, I was more than willing to take one.
Q: But how could some incident involving Michelle and Nicole could possibly have influenced your taking a polygraph test on whether you killed Nicole, in your thinking?
A: Well, I didn't think that's totally what they wanted me to take a polygraph for at that time. They were just talking about a polygraph test at that time. I wasn't at that point in time differentiating anything. I wanted to understand what it was. Once it was explained to me, we offered something to the prosecution. They didn't accept it at the time.
Q: But you knew, when you were talking to Vannatter and Lange and you made the comment about you had weird thoughts about Nicole, that the whole purpose of this discussion was about the killing of Nicole. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: You weren't there to talk about-they didn't question you about Nicole and Michelle. Correct?
A: I don't believe so.
Q: This was all about Nicole's death the day before.
A: Yes.
Q: And you said you had had weird thoughts about her. Correct?
A: No, you're not characterizing it correctly. They started talking to me about taking a polygraph test. I didn't 't understand what a polygraph test was all about. I wanted to understand what X was about. And once I understood what it was about, I was more than willing to take one, and they refused.
Q: You've said that several times.
A: And I'll say it again.
Q: What I am focusing on in these questions is solely your comment to them about having weird thoughts about Nicole in the context of that question to you about a polygraph test.
A: Yes.
Q: What weird thoughts did you have about Nicole?
MR. BAKER: It's asked and answered.
MR. PETROCELLI: He told me so far about Nicole striking his maid. I want to know--
MR. BAKER: He also told--
THE WITNESS: About Nicole striking a human being, a person. I don't look of them as maids. As a person, she struck a small woman in my house. I thought it was wrong, and at the time I had thoughts that I had wished the lady would hit her back.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Is what you're saying is that you thought the maid had killed Nicole?
MR. BAKER: Oh, come on. Don't answer that.
THE WITNESS: That's ridiculous.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Why is that ridiculous?
A: Because I think it is ridiculous. I don't think--this person is such a kind person--that this person could harm anybody. I don't think this person could be physical with anybody, and I don't think this person should have been subjected to being punched in her face in my house.
Q: That's a despicable act, isn't it?
A: Yes, it was.
Q: Something you would never do. Correct?
A: I would not do that, yes.
Q: Never did. Correct?
A: Never punched anyone, other than when I was a teenager, in their face, yes.
Q: Never struck anyone in their face. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: And you never hurt your wife either. Correct?
A: No. I hurt my wife, yes.
Q: You never struck her with your hands. Correct?
A: I never punched her, yes.
Q: Did you ever strike her?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever hurt her?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you ever physically hurt her?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you ever bruise her?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you ever make her black and blue?
A: Yes, I saw her bruised, and I felt responsible for those bruises. If it came from me or w if it came from when she fell outside, in any event, I was responsible for it.
Q: l didn't ask whether you saw her bruised. I said, did you hit her to bruise her?
A: No.
Q: Did you cause bruises on her body through acts of violence by you towards her?
A: I believe the bruises that were on her body, I was responsible for. If she got them from me being physical with her or if she got them when she fell when she was outside, I was responsible for it.
Q: If she fell when she was outside, it's because you made her fall. Right.
A: No.
Q: Because you were hitting her. Right?
A: No.
Q: You were pounding her.
A: No, that's incorrect.
Q: You made her face black and blue, didn't you?
A: If her face was black and blue the next day or two days later, I was responsible for it. No matter how it happened that day, I was the person responsible for it.
Q: And you cut her lip, didn't you?
A: That's incorrect.
Q: You hit her with your fist, and you caused her lip to split open. Is that right?
A: That's incorrect.
Q: And you caused scars on her face didn't you?
A: That's incorrect.
Q: Black-and-blue marks on her face. Right?
A: Yes, that's correct.
Q: And that was the result of your hands touching her violently. Correct?
A: Touching her violently?
Q: Yes. Hitting her.
A: That's incorrect.
Q: How is that incorrect?
A: I didn't hit her.
Q: What did you do to her?
A: I rassled her.
Q: What does that mean?
A: That means I had my hands on her, and I was trying to force her out of my bedroom. We rassled, and I was responsible for whatever happened.
I know she was outside. She fell when she was outside. I wasn't outside at the time she fell, but there was a witness to that. The state of mind that she was in when she was outside and she fell, I felt responsible for that. So if it happened then, I'm responsible for it.
Q: I am not asking you about the moral or other responsibility. I'm asking for what happened. Okay?
A: Yes.
Q: You had your fingers around her throat. Correct?
A: I could have touched her neck, yes.
Q: What do you mean, you could have "touched" her?
A: I could have.
Q: This was a violent episode, wasn't it?
A: Yes, it was.
Q: And you made marks on her throat, didn't you?
A: I didn't see them, but I'm told there were.
Q: Who told you?
A: In court I saw it.
Q: You were in such a rage that you don't remember what you did. Is that right?
A: I remember exactly what I did.
Q: You were enraged when you had this act of violence toward her, weren't you?
A: I don't know if that's totally true, but I was angry, yes.
Q: Very angry. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Rage is a fair description of your state of mind. Correct?
A: No, that's not.
Q: Not? Anger?
A: Anger.
Q: Intense anger?
A: Anger.
Q: Angry enough to hit her?
MR. BAKER: That's enough.
THE WITNESS: No.
MR. BAKER: I'm not going to let you just continue to batter him the rest
MR. PETROCELLI: Batter him. That's an appropriate word, Mr. Baker.
MR. BAKER: Well, you can make your sound bites however you like.
MR. PETROCELLI: These are not sound bites, Mr. Baker.
MR. BAKER: He is not going to answer that in that tone and--in your accusatory tone and leaning forward and in his face. It's not going to happen.
MR. PETROCELLI: The witness doesn't look at me and has not looked at me and has not made contact with me throughout this deposition. I am trying to--
MR. BAKER: Has not made contact with you?
MR. PETROCELLI: Eye contact. He keeps looking down. I prefer he look at the camera.
MR. BAKER: He has not made eye contact with you?
MR. PETROCELLI: I prefer that he look at the camera or me.
MR. BAKER: I really don't care what you prefer. That's irrelevant to me.
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay, let's not get off the track here. Okay?
MR. BAKER: Well--
MR. PETROCELLI: You're a very clever guy, Mr. Baker.
MR. BAKER: I am not clever at all.
MR. PETROCELLI: Let me go back to my questions.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: When you say you "rassled" her, you didn't--this wasn't a playful rassling match, was it?
A: Not at all.
Q: This was an angry, intense physical confrontation between you and Nicole. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And you later lied about it publicly, didn't you?
A: No.
Q: And you lied in your deposition about it, didn't you?
A: No.
Q: Did you have this episode in mind when you were talking to the detectives about having weird thoughts towards Nicole?
A: Not specifically, no.
Q: You mean you thought about her hitting Michelle, your maid, but you didn't think about your hitting Nicole. Is that what you're saying?
A: I didn't hit Nicole.
Q: Not once. Is that correct?
A: Not once.
Q: But you put your fingers around her throat. Right?
A: I'm sure I touched her throat, yes. I'm sure I touched her, yes.
Q: How did she get those marks on her face?
A: Through the course of our rassling, I'm sure she got those marks on her.
Q: Describe the movements you made with your hands on her face that caused those bruises that we have seen on the pictures.
A: I can't do that.
Q: Why not?
A: Because I can't tell you specifically how that was done.
Q: You don't remember the sequence of events?
A: No.
Q: Is that correct?
A: No.
Q: That's incorrect?
A: It's correct that once we started rassling, I can't give you a sequence of events, yes.
Q: Tell me how your hands made contact with her face.
A: I don't believe that my hands made contact with her face at one point in time in trying to rassle her. I know I had her head, pulling her, so it could have happened then.
Q: You were pulling her hair to get her out of the room?
A: No. I had her by the shoulders and the head and was trying to pull her off--
Q: Like in a headlock?
A: Yeah, sort of in a headlock.
Q: Trying to pull her out the room?
A: Yes.
Q: And you never once raised your fist to her and hit her?
A: No, that's correct.
Q: Did you ever once raise your hand and slap her?
A: No, I didn't.
Q: Did you strike her?
A: No, I didn't.
Q: Did you see that she was bleeding during this exchange?
A: She never bled once at any time there, at the police station. Nobody gave her a Kleenex. Nobody wiped blood off her. There was not one drop of blood anywhere on that scene that day or that night.
Q: When you were involved in this confrontation with her, did you see any marks on her face?
A: No, I didn't.
Q: Did you see any darkening of her skin?
A: No.
Q: Was she screaming?
A: She was yelling at me.
Q: Was she in pain?
A: I couldn't tell if she was in pain or not.
Q: Was she screaming and yelling in pain?
A: No. She was cursing me.
Q: Telling you to stop hitting her?
A: No.
Q: Did she say that?
A: No.
Q: Did she tell you to stop what you were doing.
A: No.
Q: You were physically more powerful than her. Correct?
A: Yes. Yes.
Q: How much did she weigh at that time?
A: I would say in the area of 135.
Q: And how tall was she?
A: 5-7 1/2, 5-8
Q: What was your height at that time?
A: 6-1 1/2.
Q: What was your weight?
A: 210, 215.
Q: So you were easily able to overpower her physically. Is that right?
A: No, that's not correct.
Q: She was a match for you physically?
A: Yes, in that sense, in the way I was trying to remove her, she was a match.
Q: Let me show you Exhibit 3 of the trial, Exhibit 4 of the trial, Exhibit 10 of the trial and Exhibit 11 of the trial. These are all photographs of Nicole.
MR. LEONARD: Do you have copies?
MR. PETROCELLI: They're being handed out. Q: And Exhibit 5. You have all these photos in front of you. Correct? You recognize these photos, don't you?
MR. BLASIER: Are you going to give them exhibit numbers?
MR. PETROCELLI: Yeah, I will in a minute. Q: You recognize them, don't you?
A: Yes.
Q: They are photos of Nicole. Right?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: You have to answer audibly.
A: Yes.
Q: And they're photos of Nicole after the--this physical confrontation that you had with her. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Every single one of them, all five of them. Right?
A: I'm not sure of that.
Q: Which one are you not sure of?
A: I'm not--this is what's in court. That's the only time I ever saw them, so that's what I'm assuming this is. I wasn't there when they were taken.
Q: When you last saw Nicole that evening, you saw these marks on her face?
A: No.
Q: But you know that these marks came from the incident that you said you were responsible for. Correct?
A: I'm assuming so, yes.
Q: Do you have any reason to doubt that?
A: Not really.
Q: You caused all those marks on her face that you see in these pictures, didn't you?
A: I feel responsible for--some of them may have just been her picking her face, but if there's bruises and stuff, I'm certainly responsible for them, yes.
Q: How exactly are you responsible?
A: In rassling her to get out of the house or whatever state she was in--as I could see here, she's got--she's muddied. I wasn't there at that time. She hurt herself at that point in time, I'm responsible for it.
Q: How did you by putting her in a headlock cause these marks to occur on her face?
A: We were rassling in the room, and I was trying to get her out of the room, and as we were rassling to get her out of the room, we were falling and rassling to get out of the door, and I'm assuming it happened then.
Q: Now, when you were rassling with her, is that also how the black and blue bruising on her left --under her left arm came about?
A: I can only assume so.
MR. BAKER: Is that the left?
MR. PETROCELLI: Right. Right. I'm sorry, Mr. Baker. Right arm.
THE WITNESS: I can only assume so.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: When you were rassling with her, did you hassle to the floor?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: The two of you were on the floor and she was trying to get away, and you were holding her in your headlock?
A: She was trying to stay in the room. I was trying to get her out of the room. I guess she was trying to get away from my grip, yes.
Q: Before you put her in the grip, did you hit her?
A: No.
Q: Punch her?
A: No.
Q: Strike her in any way?
A: No.
Q: Before you put her in the grip, in the headlock, did you make any contact with her face at all?
A: No.
Q: And when you put her in the headlock, is that when you fell to the ground?
A: I don't know if I really fell to the ground. I know we were rassling around and I was trying to pull her and...
Q: You rassled around. You mean in bed?
A: Well, it started on--I was on the bed and she was off of the bed when it started.
Q: Yeah? Well, describe to me, as best as you can recall, the entire sequence of events. I am now referring to the evening of January 1, 1989. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: About what time in the morning.
A: I don't know.
Q: About 4:00?
A: I don't know.
Q: Tell me what happened.
A: At what point?
Q: Starting with the argument you had in the bed.
A: We didn't really have an argument. She had an argument with me, and she went out of the room, and I locked the door.
Q: Out of the bedroom?
A: Yes.
Q: What was she arguing about with you?
A: Something--that she had mistaken something that--what's her name? Who is now Marcus Allen's wife--
Q: Katherine?
A:--Katherine had said to her, and she was arguing about that, and I said "Well, call Katherine. I think you misunderstood what she told you. And at this particular point the argument started, and she got out of the bed--usually it started in the bed. She got out of the bed and went and I guess what she does is pick and clean her face--
Q: "Pick" her face, what does that mean?
A: I don't know. She does it every night. Women--ask your wife. She'll tell you.
Q: Are you telling me that she picked her face such that she caused these marks on her face?
A: I don't think--
MR. BAKER: I don't know what "these marks" are.
MR. PETROCELLI: Marks reflected on the photographs, Mr. Baker.
MR. BAKER: Well, there's a lot of marks on the--
MR. PETROCELLI: I know there are. Q: Let me ask you this question--
MR. BAKER: Do not answer to "these marks" on the photographs.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: When she went into the bathroom after your discussion about Katherine --By the way, did that discussion concern the subject of your infidelity?
A: Possibly, yes.
Q: You were unfaithful to her, and she was upset about it. Right?
A: No, she was absolutely wrong. It had something to do with some earrings.
Q: We will get back to that. But staying with this subject, she went into the bathroom and you saw her start to pick her face?
A: At one point, yes.
Q: At one point before she came out of the bathroom you saw her picking her face?
A: Yes.
Q: The door was open?
A: There's no door there.
Q: And you could see from your bed.
A: No. I went downstairs and got some water.
Q: And when you went downstairs, you saw her picking her face.
A: Doing what she does every night. Every night. Cleaning her face and picking her face. She has sort of a thing about that.
Q: What does "picking her face" mean?
A: I don't know. Getting blackheads out, squeezing pimples, that kind of stuff.
Q: When she did this every night, did she walk out of the bathroom with marks on her face?
A: Sometimes very apparent marks, yes.
Q: Marks exactly like any of the marks you see on her face in these photographs?
A: Sort of like this (Indicating) by her nose, some of these things (Indicating) on her chin. Yes, she looked like that quite often after she picked her face.
Q: The one to the left of her nose--
A: Yes.
Q: --and the ones on her chin.
A: Chin, yes.
MR. BREWER: What trial exhibit?
MR. PETROCELLI: He is looking at Exhibit No. 10.
Q: You believe that based on what you saw that evening, that that's how the mark to the left of her nose and on her chin were caused?
A: I have no belief one way or the other on that.
Q: You see the marks above her left eyebrow?
A: Yes.
Q: You think that came about from picking her skin?
A: No. I think that was caused by our confrontation, and I believe I'm totally responsible for that.
Q: Did--What happened after you saw her picking her skin?
A: I went and got some water--
Q: Excuse me. Picking her face.
A: I went and got water, and climbed back in bed.
Q: Did you have any clothing on?
A: I don't think I had on anything, no.
Q: And did she?
A: I'm not sure.
Q: Did she at that time sleep with or without any clothing on?
A: Normally just in her panties.
Q: Now, what happened next then?
A: She was still talking as I was in bed, and I made an effort to call Katherine--
Q: You called Katherine?
A: I was making an effort to call Katherine. I said, "You just come and call Katherine," and I was making an effort to call her, and at that point she came in the room and kind of came over me and hit me.
Q: You were on the phone?
A: No. I was on my bed, leaning over, telling her, arguing with her about, "u always make these accusations. Why don't you call her, because I know that is not what she meant."
Q: What was the accusation Nicole had made?
A: Something about me buying earrings for a girl.
Q: Who?
A: No particular girl.
Q: Was it true?
A: No, it wasn't true.
Q: Had you bought earrings?
A: No, I didn't.
Q: Totally untrue?
A: Totally untrue. And I think she just misunderstood what Katherine said, and I believe they had a conversation about it and straightened it out. Unfortunately, after this.
Q: In the course of your 17-year relationship with Nicole, did you believe she was a liar?
A: She lied, yes.
Q: She lied often to you?
A: Not often, no.
Q: Would you call her a pathological liar?
A: No, I wouldn't.
Q: More than not, she was honest with you?
A: Yes. Yes.
Q: And truthful in her relationship with you. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. When she came back, did she strike you?
A: Yes.
Q: You didn't see her coming?
A: I may have seen her coming.
Q: Where did she hit you?
A: I don't know. She was just--it was 1 just a swing, kind of. I was on the bed, and it was just a thing that she did.
Q: Angrily. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And she hit you with both hands?
A: I believe so.
Q: Where on your body?
A: I don't know. She just came, and I reacted at that point.
Q: Now, as a result of--Did she continue to hit you, by the way, throughout this confrontation, swing at you and try to hit you?
A: Possibly, but, you know, at that point I was just trying to get her out of the room, and she was--Nicole is Nicole. She didn't want to be put out of the room.
Q: As a result of this confrontation, did you suffer any injuries?
A: I had a scratch right around here, right around this area of my body (Indicating).
Q: Is that the only thing?
A: Only thing I noticed, yes.
Q: And when she started to hit you on the bed--where; on the face or on the body?
A: On the body.
Q: Your chest or in the back? Where?
A: I don't know. I was just laying on the bed, and she just came at me. It may have been across my arms, because I saw her--I saw the motion at me.
Q: What did you do?
A: I grabbed her.
Q: Where?
A: I don't know. Just grabbed her.
Q: Put both arms around her to try to restrain her?
A: Yes.
Q: Both arms around her back?
A: I don't know. She--we rassled somewhat.
Q: I don't know what "rassle " means, so I am trying to get to the specifics.
A: Well, I can't describe it to you. We just rassled, you know. If you ever saw a rassling match, that's what we were doing.
Q: Did she fall on the bed?
A: Yes, I believe so.
Q: Was she yelling at you?
A: I don't remember.
Q: What were you saying to her during this time?
A: I don't think I was -- had my hands full, so I don't believe I was saying anything to her.
Q: Were you yelling at her, screaming at her?
A: I don't think so. I was just trying to get her out of the room.
Q: Using profanity?
A: I don't think so, but I could have.
Q: Did you tell her to get out of the room?
A: I actually moved her out of the room.
Q: You got her out of the room?
A: Yes.
Q: And you locked the door?
A: Yes.
Q: And was that the end of the confrontation?
A: No.
Q: How did you actually get her from the bed out of the room?
A: I grabbed her and I kind of rassled her and I kind of pulled her. I may have at that point had her around her waist sort of, and I believe I was behind her at that time, because I didn't have much problem getting her out of the room.
Q: How far is the door from the bed?
A: 15 feet.
Q: And you locked the door then?
A: Yes.
Q: Did her face, by the way, hit anything along the way?
A: I don't know. I couldn't see.
Q: And then what happened next?
A: I locked the door. She evidently went and got a key and came back and--
Q: Where were you when she came back?
A: On the bed.
Q: What were you doing?
A: I don't know. Just thinking about it all, I guess.
Q: What happened when she opened the door? A: I grabbed her again.
Q: You heard her fumbling at the lock?
A: No. She got into the room.
Q: And then she came over to the bed?
A: As she walked into the room, was getting off the bed.
Q: And what happened then?
A: I said I didn't want her in the room.
Q: What was she saying to you as she came in the room?
A: I don't really recall.
Q: No memory of that?
A: No.
Q: And then you got up to do what.
A: To tell her to leave the room.
Q: How did you cause her to leave the room?
A: I rassled her again.
Q: Did you fall onto the floor?
A: I can't really recall.
Q: Did you fall on the floor the first time you got her out?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Did you just get her out of the room quickly?
A: Not as quickly as the first time.
Q: What happened? A: We rassled. She was forceful.
Q: She was strong?
A: Yes, very strong.
Q: And you just kept her in a headlock and didn't pull--
A: We rassled. As I said, I wasn't the whole time in the headlock. We rassled. She was fighting me off her and I was trying to grab her to get her out of the room.
Q: And you are positive that your fists and your hands didn't touch her face?
A: Yes.
Q: Or her arm. Right?
A: Maybe arm, yes.
Q: When you got her out of the room, you locked the door again?
A: Yes.
Q: And was that the end of the physical confrontation?
A: Yes. For the most part, yes.
Q: Was that the only time you had a physical confrontation with her?
A: Yes. Of this nature, yes.
Q: Of any nature? I mean a fight like that.
A: Yeah.
Q: Not a romantic--
A: Yes.
Q: This was the only occasions. Is that right?
A: Yeah, a fight like this, yes.
Q: Did you have less intense fights?
A: I wouldn't call them--
Q: Physical. Physical, confrontations.
MR. BAKER: Physical.
THE WITNESS: Yes, certainly. Certainly less, yes.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: How many?
A: We had arguments.
Q: No. I mean physical.
MR. BAKER: He means where you hit her or she hit you or something like that.
THE WITNESS: She's hit me on numerous occasions.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: And on numerous occasions when Nicole hit you never hit her back. Right?
A: Correct.
Q: So I just want to get this clear. In your entire relationship with Nicole --Withdrawn. In your entire relationship with Nicole and the entire time that you knew Nicole, you never once hit her with your fist. Is that true?
A: Never once did I ever hit her with my fist, ever.
Q: You never once slapped her with your hand?
A: Never once have I ever slapped Nicole.
Q: And never once did you strike her with your hand.
A: Never.
Q: Never once did you strangle her.
A: Never.
Q: Never once did you choke her?
A: Never.
Q: Never once did you beat her.
A: Never.
Q: Never once did you physically hurt her.
A: Never.
Q: And if Nicole said you did those things to her, she would not be telling the truth.
A: Correct.
Q: Is that what you're saying?
A: That's correct.
Q: She would be lying.
A: Yes. But she would not tell that lie under oath.
Q: She would tell that lie when she's not under oath. Is that what you're saying?
A: Possibly, yes.
Q: She would lie to herself even?
MR. BAKER: I don't know what you mean by that.
THE WITNESS: I don't know what that means, yes. I'm sorry.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: She would write in her diary that you hit her when it wasn't true?
A: She never had a diary?
Q: She would write notes to herself or journal entries about your beating her when that didn't occur?
A: Yes, that's correct.
Q: Why would she do such things?
A: Because she wanted me to tear up my prenuptial agreement, and I gather her lawyers and her came up with that as a scheme.
Q: So you are saying Nicole would in effect have tried to defraud you?
A: Not under oath she wouldn't, because she refused to testify to that under oath, which she told me.
Q: So she told you that she made up all these incidents of battery by you just for the purpose of voiding your prenuptial agreement with her at the behest of her lawyers.
A: Yes. But you must understand, they never used it. She would never let them use it. It was sort of a threat, but it never went anywhere.
Q: But in carrying out this fraud, you believe that she went so far as to write down on paper.
Q: Number of incidents that you believe she made up out of whole cloth?
A: Yes.
Q: By the way, were you arrested as a result of this 1989 incident?
A: No.
Q: Did the cops come out?
A: Yes.
Q: And you left. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: You drove away. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: While they were still there. Right?
A: I believe so.
Q: And you--and they were pursuing you, weren't they?
A: No.
Q: They came after you, didn't they?
A: No.
Q: You didn't tell them you were leaving, though. Right?
A: Correct.
Q: Nor did you tell Nicole. Right?
A: Correct.
Q: Just like you didn't tell anyone on the 17th when you were leaving. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: Let me show you this picture. Did we mark this yet?
MR. GELBLUM: We haven't marked any of them.
MR. PETROCELLI: Anyway, this is Exhibit 9.
Q: Have you ever seen that before?
A: No.
Q: Ever see it in court?
A: No. Well, I think we may have saw it in court.
Q: Do you see those bruises on her face?
A: No.
Q: You don't see anything?
A: No. I mean I see this eye thing.
Q: You don't think this picture reflects any bruising or injuries or marks on Nicole's face?
A: No, I don't.
Q: What do you think this reflects?
A: I think it reflects doing a movie that we're doing and we're doing makeup.
Q: You have a specific recollection of that?
A: I have a specific recollection of us doing that, yes. I don't know if this is the exact-- I didn't take that picture, so I don't know.
Q: When was that?
A: In the late '70s.
Q: In the late '70s you had Nicole made up?
A: No. We were making ourselves up. I think I was doing a movie called DETOUR TO TERROR at the time.
Q: And--
A: And I don't have any specific recollection of this. My--I just know what--I just read something.
Q: What did you read?
A: I read where Nicole told Denise Brown that that's what this picture was.
Q: Makeup?
A: Yes.
Q: Where did you read that?
A: In one of the discovery things.
Q: Before you read that, had you ever seen that picture?
A: No.
Q: And did you--
A: I may have. I may have.
Q: Did you remember that you had had this makeup session with Nicole?
A: I don't think I had it with her. I think I was doing this thing, and we were all supposed to look abused and stuff during this shoot, and I was trying to get her a part so she could get her SAG card.
Q: Did Nicole tell you that she had had this--she had been made up to look like an abused, battered woman when that occurred?
A: I don't think so. I think what we were doing was we were just doing makeup, doing different make-ups.
Q: But my question is whether she told you after she had this makeup put on her that she had that done to her.
A: I saw part of it being done. I don't know if that's specifically one time. We did it more than once.
Q: When you saw it being done, was it she being made up like the picture in this exhibit?
A: Things to that effect, yes.
Q: Like in a battered woman. Right?
A: I don't know if this is a battered woman picture--
Q: Supposed to show marks--
A: --but I had a puffy eye and everything they did to me, too.
Q: So when you read that thing about Denise, that reminded you about that earlier incident?
A: Yes, because I've never seen Nicole look like this before, so--unless it was before she knew me.
Q: How did Nicole get this mud on her pants on Exhibit 5? Do you know?
A: Only from what I saw in police reports.
MR. BLASIER: Could we please give those new exhibit numbers?
MR. PETROCELLI: Yes. I will do that.
THE WITNESS: Michelle--I just saw Michelle's testimony on that, her police report on that. Evidently Nicole fell when they were outside.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You've read quite a bit of material, haven't you?
A: Yes.
MR. BAKER: He didn't have much to do for 15 months.
THE WITNESS: But I knew that even before, even before. I knew she fell even before because she told me about it. We talked about it.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: How do you account for the finger marks on Nicole's throat, Mr. Simpson?
A: I don't. I don't know. I never saw them, so I can't account for them.
Q: But you are positive that they're not marks caused by your fingers. Is that right?
A: No, I didn't tell you that. I told you that maybe during the course of rassling, I could have touched her neck, yes. I'm rassling her and I'm holding her. It's pretty tough not to have a person around their shoulders and their necks and their bodies. We were rassling, and it could have happened, yes.
Q: What could have happened is that you could have had your fingers around her throat and caused those marks. Is that what you're saying?
MR. BAKER: Well, wait a minute.
THE WITNESS: I certainly wasn't choking her.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: I am not asking you if you were choking her. I'm trying to be specific without characterizing it. I am saying, what could have happened is that you could have had your fingers around her throat, and you could have caused the marks that she had on her throat. Is that right?
MR. BAKER: And you are depicting a "fingers around the throat" as somebody choking and--
MR. PETROCELLI: I am not on video.
MR. BAKER: Well, but that's Okay.
THE WITNESS: I don't know. I mean, I don't-- first will you show me the marks on her throat? I don't recall ever seeing--and I happened to see these pictures in court, unfortunately. I don't ever recall seeing that, those marks. No one has ever shown me a picture of those marks that you are describing right now.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Well, do you remember putting your fingers on her throat?
A: No.
Q: And do you remember choking her?
A: No. I know I didn't choke her.
Q: Do you remember causing any marks to be made by your fingers-- Excuse me. Do you remember having your fingers cause marks to be left on her neck?
A: Not specifically. I think any marks that's on her, I take full responsibility for. I don't know what else you want me to do. I take total responsibility
Q: Why?
A: --for it.
A: Because I shouldn't have handled the situation the way I did. All my life with Nicole, no matter what was going on, I handled it without being physical with her, and that time I got physical with her. And I'm ashamed of it; I wish it not had happened, and I make no excuses for it.
Q: How did you get physical with her?
A: I tried to remove her from the room.
Q: And now you think you should not have tried to do so?
A: Not now. I felt it immediately after then, I should not have done so.
Q: This caused a big rift in your relationship with her, didn't it?
A: Yes. I think so, yes.
Q: She was very upset with you as a result of what you did. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And you were separated for months. Right?
A: That's absolutely wrong. We weren't separated for anything--for the two day--that day, and the next day I was home with her, and we never separated for more than 48 hours from this incident.
Q: Are you saying that 48 hours after this incident on January 1 ,1989, you were reconciled with Nicole? 6
A: I would say as far as splitting up, 24 hours after this incident we had reconciled. In fact, we weren't going to split up, but it was painful. It was so much pain, and I had hoped it wouldn't lead eventually to a split-up. But we didn't live anywhere else. I stayed at a friend's house for a few days. I spent the whole day at the house with her, but I just felt--I had some anger myself, and I just felt a little distance would help. So for about two days I stayed away, and I just hoped it wouldn't lead eventually--that this would be, as you call, a rift that wouldn't be something that could divide our relationship over a period of time, but at that particular time we did not split up. I believe we had friends over one week later, and we took a trip together within 30 days of this incident.
Q: How much time went by after January 1, 1989 before Nicole and you reconciled?
A: What do you mean by "reconciled?" You have to tell me what you mean by "reconciled." We never split.
Q: What does "reconcile" mean to you?
A: To me, to the--to me reconciled totally technically is if you split up, and then you reconcile when you come back together.
Q: And that never happened.
A: That never happened.
Q: So you never split up, and therefore you never had to reconcile. Is that what you're saying?
A: No. I think we had to reconcile what happened that night, for both of us. In that sense we needed a rec--- yeah, that's why we went to therapy. o We had to reconcile how did our relationship reach a point where something like this could happen. Yes. And I had to reconcile in my mind how I could let our relationship get to the point that I could be physical with her. It was--it was a traumatic thing for me. But as far as splitting up. she never called a lawyer. I never called a lawyer. It was not a situation like that.
Q: What do you mean, she didn't call a lawyer? She prosecuted charges against you.
A: No, she didn't. The D.A. did.
Q: But she was the complaining party. Right?
A: That night she was the complaining parry.
Q: And she cooperated. Right?
A: Of course she did.
Q: And in fact you were convicted as a result of entering a plea of--
A: That's correct.
Q:-of nolo contendere.
A: That's correct.
Q: You tried to talk her out of pursuing that, didn't you?
A: We talked about that, yes. I asked her, 19 was she going to testify in court. She said no.
Q: You were concerned about the damage it would do to your public image and your reputation. Correct?
A: Partially, yes.
Q: By the way, you went to therapy because the court ordered you to do so. Correct?
A: That's absolutely wrong.
Q: The court ordered you to go to therapy. Right?
A: Six months later. I had been going to therapy for those five or six months. Whenever I got to court, I had started therapy immediately that week.
Q: Your lawyer told you to do that. Right?
A: No. I wanted to do that even before I saw my lawyer. My lawyer--I didn't see my lawyer or speak to my lawyer for a few days because he was out of town at that time.
Q: But your lawyer advised you to do that 13 also. Right?
MR. BAKER: Don't answer that, OJ. That's nonsense.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did Ron Shipp have anything to do with this incident?
A: Yes. Not this incident, no.
Q: What did Ron Shipp have--
A: A few days later he came over, like many of our friends did.
Q: He was a friend. Right.?
A: He was friendly. He was not a guy I invited to do anything. He was never at my house for a party unless there was 3 or 400 people at the party. I had a party of 50 or a hundred, he was not one of the people there.
Q: So he never spent time with you alone. Is that right?
A: That's correct.
Q: Or in small groups of friends. Is that right?
A: That's correct. Unless he showed up at a restaurant-- 0
Q: Uninvited?
A: Well, no. He wasn't invited by me, but I've never invited him to dinner ever.
Q: That's what I meant.
A: Yes.
Q: Now going back, what happened with Shipp a couple days later?
A: He came by.
Q: What did he discuss with you?
A: He wanted to discuss what--I don't know if he wanted to discuss what was happening. He tried to talk to Nicole. He came in and talked to me and he said that he had some expertise in this field.
Q: Field of domestic violence?
A: Yes. And he made some suggestions.
Q: What did he suggest to you?
A: He wanted me to make some public statement.
Q: About?
A: About the incident.
Q: And you said no?
A: Yes.
Q: Why?
A: Because I didn't want to.
Q: What else did he tell you? 1
A: I at that point was looking--was saying, "I'm going to have to get-Nicole and I are going to have to go to some therapy," and he made a suggestion for a person.
Q: Who?
A: Bert Kitaen.
Q: And you went to Bert. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Did he suggest anything else to you?
A: No.
Q: You heard some testimony in court about the police coming out to your house for domestic violence incidents about seven or eight times? Did you hear that testimony?
A: I heard that--I don't know if it was in court, but I certainly heard that accusation, yes.
Q: Is that true?
A: Totally false.
Q: How many times did the police come out as a result of incidents involving Nicole and you?
A: Will you tell me what incidents? What do you mean by "incidents?
Q: As a result of any disagreement, conflict, fight, whatever, between Nicole and you.
A: Counting '89, two other times.
Q: Once when?
A: Once in 1993 when we were having an argument at her house on Gretna Green.
Q: And the other time?
A: I'm not sure, because I know we didn't call the police, but I'm told now it was Mark Fuhrman showed up at our house.
Q: you mean just showed up?
A: Yes.
Q: Nobody called him?
A: Didn't call the police, no.
Q: How did he get there?
A: I'm assuming Westec called him.
Q: That was the result of a fight that you and Nicole were having?
A: An argument that we were having. An argument that we were having.
Q: Who called Westec?
A: Nicole.
Q: Any other times the police come out?
A: No, never any other time, at any other time ever.
Q: Were you arrested in 1985 when the police came out?
A: For what?
Q: For anything.
A: No.
Q: Were you arrested in 1993 when they came out?
MR. BAKER: When you said, 1985 when the police came out"--
THE WITNESS: I don't believe 1985 either.
MR. BAKER:--there is no foundation to--
MR. PETROCELLI: He just mentioned something about Mr. Fuhrman, Mr. Baker.
THE WITNESS: But it wasn't 1985. I know that.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: What was the year?
A: I don't know, but I know if wasn't 1985.
Q: How do you know that?
A: Because they said it was in the fall and I recall it being in the fall because Nicole was pregnant in the fall of 1985, was the first year we were married. We never had any arguments that year. After she had the baby, she had a C section, so she wouldn't have been out, couldn't get her for the next two years to go out having drinks with friends, and this incident had taken place after she had returned home from having drinks with friends. So certainly--and Nicole-- certainly was not the fall of 1985.
Q: Well, based on what you just said can you fix the time for us?
A: I believe it was 1984.
Q: In the fall?
A: Yes.
Q: Did the police arrest you when they came out in the fall of 1984?
A: There was no reason for them to be there. They--I think they testified to that--
MR. BAKER: The answer to that was yes or no.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: And did they arrest you in 1993?
A: No.
MR. BAKER: Should we take a lunch break?
MR. PETROCELLI: Yeah.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the end of tape (201 No. 1 of Volume IV. The time is approximately 12:02, and we are off the record.
(At the hour of 12:02 p.m., a luncheon recess was taken, the deposition to resume at 1:02 p.m.)
(At the hour of 1:20 p.m., the deposition of ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON was resumed at the same place, the same persons being present.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are on the record. The time is approximately 1:20. This is the beginning of tape No. 2 of Volume IV.
MR. GELBLUM: We will mark the exhibits that we were looking at before lunch. Trial Exhibit 3 we will mark as Exhibit 45, trial Exhibit 4 we will mark as Exhibit 46, trial Exhibit 5 we will mark as Exhibit 47, trial Exhibit 9 we will mark as Exhibit 48, trial Exhibit 10 we will mark as Exhibit 49, and trial Exhibit 11 we will mark as Exhibit 50.
(Plaintiffs' Exhibits 45 through 51 were marked for identification by the reporter and are attached hereto.)
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Good afternoon, Mr. Simpson.
A: Good afternoon.
Q: Johnnie Cochran was one of your lawyers in the criminal case. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And you were there throughout the trial.
Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: Including the opening statement made by Mr. Cochran. Correct.
A: Correct.
MR. BAKER: Let me just tell you that you are not going to examine Mr. Simpson on any comments made by Johnnie Cochran.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Let me ask you--let me read something that Mr. Cochran said and ask you a few questions about it: "With regard to Rockingham Mr. Simpson's residence, again I expect there will be testimony that Mr. Simpson did in fact cut his finger at some place where I am pointing now near the end of his middle finger, and he so told the police that evening, January 13, and that he went out--he did it either as he was about to leave or when he went out to the Bronco to get his cellular phone." My question to you is: Was that statement true?
MR. BAKER: Don't answer that. We are not -- he is not going to be interrogated on what Mr. Cochran said at the trial unless you get a court order. That is not evidence in any case, and that is not a proper examination, in my opinion.
MR. PETROCELLI: I am not asking him for this purpose, Mr. Baker, on the
theory that Mr. Cochran's statement is an admission, although I may take that position later on. I am simply asking him about the statement -- his knowledge about the statement.
MR. BAKER: You have examined him, Mr. Petrocelli, on all of that. You know exactly what his testimony is, and we are not going to go into that, not without a court order.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Did you tell that to Mr. Cochran?
MR. BAKER: Don't answer that either.
MR. PETROCELLI: Same objections?
MR. BAKER: Well, it's the same objection, plus it's obviously attorney-client privilege.
MR. PETROCELLI: Well, not if Mr.
Cochran said it.
MR. BAKER: Pardon me?
MR. PETROCELLI: Mr. Cochran said this to the jury.
MR. BAKER: I understand that.
MR. PETROCELLI: And if he got that information from Mr. Simpson, how can it be protected by the attorney- client privilege?
MR. BAKER: Because he doesn't have to tell you anything he told Mr. Cochran, and that would obviously-- well, I'm not going to go into it any further except to say that he does not have to divulge any of that, regardless of where Mr. Cochran got that. That does not waive his attorney-client privilege in my opinion, but--
MR. PETROCELLI: You will instruct him. Right?
MR. BAKER: I will instruct him, and we both know our positions on this issue.
MR. PETROCELLI: Well, just a few more questions. MR. BAKER: Sure, go ahead.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Do you know of any person other than yourself who knew that you cut your finger--your middle finger on June 12?
MR. BAKER: Other than what he has testified here today about his conversations with Vannatter, with Lange, with--
MR. PETROCELLI: No. I am asking a different question, Mr. Baker.
Q: I am asking whether you, Mr. Simpson, know of any person or source who could--other than yourself, because your attorney has barred me about asking about your questions-- your conversations with Mr. Cochran, so any person or source other than yourself who would know that you in fact cut your finger on June 12, 1994.
MR. BAKER: You can answer that, OJ., although it's been--you've interrogated him at length--
MR. PETROCELLI: But this is different, Mr. Baker. It's also a different finger.
Q: You can answer.
A: I'm sorry. You have to repeat it.
Q: Do you know of any person or source who would know that you in fact cut your middle finger on June 12, 1994?
A: Cut my middle finger.
Q: Correct.
MR. BAKER: On the left hand.
MR. PETROCELLI: On the left hand.
THE WITNESS: Would know in fact which mean they saw it?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Correct.
MR. BAKER: Wait a minute.
THE WITNESS: On June 12 who saw it? No, I don't know anyone who would have saw that on June 12, no.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Do you know of any person other than yourself who would know that you cut any of your fingers on June 12, l994?
A: Meaning that they saw it?
Q: Or you told them.
MR. BAKER: He didn't cut his middle finger on June 12, and you say "Other than yourself."
MR. PETROCELLI: That's what Mr. Cochran said.
MR. BAKER: I don't care what Mr. Cochran said. Mr. Cochran wasn't under oath, and that's not evidence in the case.
MR. PETROCELLI: I disagree with that.
MR. BAKER: You think opening statements is evidence in a case?
MR. PETROCELLI: I think it's an authorized admission. But put that aside, Mr. Baker--
MR. BAKER: In a criminal case?
MR. PETROCELLI: The question was not directed to the middle finger. It was directed to any finger. In any event.
MR. BAKER: No, it was directed to the left middle finger on the 12th.
MR. PETROCELLI: Do you want to read the last question back?
MR. BAKER: Read the question before that.
MR. PETROCELLI: That's what I mean.
THE WITNESS: Both questions. You said "middle finger" on both times.
MR. PETROCELLI: No, I didn't.
THE WITNESS: Yes, you did.
(Question read as follows: Do you know of any person other than yourself who would know that you cut any of your fingers on June 12, 1994?")
MR. BAKER: Read the one before that.
MR. PETROCELLI: That's the one that I want the answer to. He already answered the prior question.
MR. BAKER: Read the prior question back. I want to hear it.
MR. PETROCELLI: Let's play it back for Mr. Baker. (Record read from 0, Line 16 through 1, Line 5.)
MR. PETROCELLI: Read the next question.
(Question read as follows: Q: Do you know of any person other than yourself who would know that you cut any of your fingers on June 12, 1994?")
MR. BAKER: You can answer that.
THE WITNESS: You mean know as a fact by seeing it?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Seeing it, correct.
A: Seeing it, no.
Q: Or your telling them?
A: Well, I don't know if I'm getting into attorney-client here.
Q: You didn't tell anybody on June 12,1994 -
A: On June 12 I didn't tell anybody anything.
Q: --that you cut your finger, did you?
A: I didn't tell anybody on June 12 anything.
Q: Did you in fact cut your finger on June 12?
A: I don't know. I saw blood on one of my fingers and on my counter on June l2th, and I saw blood.
Q: Do you know where Mr. Cochran got the information that you in fact cut your finger on June 12th?
MR. BAKER: Don't answer that.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Do you know where Mr. Cochran got the information-- I only asked him, by the way, if he knew where the source was.
MR. BAKER: I followed your question very carefully.
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay. Do you still instruct him?
MR. BAKER: I still instruct him.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Do you know where Mr. Cochran got the information that you in fact cut your finger either as you were about to leave or when you went out to the Bronco to get your cellular phone?
MR. BAKER: Don't answer that.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Okay. Do you know anybody other than yourself who would have known on the evening of June that you cut your finger either when you went to leave or when you went out to the Bronco to get your phone?
MR. BAKER: He has already answered you about his cuts on June 12, and don't answer that. That's asked and answered multiple times.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Okay. Do you know anyone other than yourself who would know that you cut your finger as you were about to leave or when you went out to the Bronco to get the phone?
MR. BAKER: Same instruction and same objection.
MR. PETROCELLI: The question here, Mr. Baker, is directed to the latter part, about how the cut occurred.
MR. BAKER: And you've gone into that in excruciating detail very, very well, and that's all been asked and answered, and I am not going to allow him to answer that.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: After Mr. Cochran said this to the jury, did you inform him that his statement was false?
MR. BAKER: Don't answer that either.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Mr. Simpson, was there an incident in which you beat Nicole in San Francisco?
A: No.
Q: Did you beat her in 1977; to be specific, in San Francisco?
A: No.
Q: Do you recall an incident when Nicole found an earring in your--in her apartment bed in San Francisco?
A: No.
Q: Where she accused you of sleeping with someone named Terry?
A: No.
Q: Where you threw a fit?
A: No.
Q: Where you chased her?
A: No. : Grabbed her?
A: No.
Q: Threw her into the walls?
A:: No.
Q: Threw all of her clothes out the window into the street?
A: No.
Q: And bruised her?
A: No.
Q: You don't recall any of that?
A: No
Q: Are you positive it did not occur?
A: Yes.
Q: And see if I could jog your recollection. Mr. Cowlings came by and he tried to calm you down.
A: No.
Q: You're positive that didn't happen?
A: Positive.
Q: Do you recall an incident--First of all, did Nicole have an apartment in San Francisco?
A: No.
Q: Did you?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you recall whether that incident that just described occurred in your apartment?
A: It didn't occur.
Q: It didn't occur wherever. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Did you or Nicole ever have place on Ashton Street?
A: I believe Nicole did.
Q: Did you have a physical confrontation
with her on Ashton Street?
A: No.
Q: At a time when you were wearing a cast on your leg?
A: No.
Q: Did you yell and scream and swear and call her a fucking bitch and motherfucker?
A: No.
Q: And was she crying and wailing?
A: No.
Q: You don't recall any of that?
A: I don't recall ever in my life having a cast on my leg.
Q: What about when you threw her -- Do you recall throwing her against the floor or the wall?
A: No.
Q: Hitting her in the face?
A: Never.
Q: And giving her black eyes?
A: No.
Q: You know who Connie Good is?
A: No
Q: Do you recall an event in New York when you and Nicole went to a friend's anniversary party, and you and Nicole got in a fight?
A: No.
Q: Where you got upset with Nicole because she was talking to a man in a bar? This is in New York, now.
A: No.
Q: You dragged Nicole out of the bar and slapped her around?
A: No.
Q: That did not occur?
A: Did not occur.
Q: And did you hit her on the street corner?
A: No.
Q: You were approached by a person who wanted to help, and you said, "Stay out. It's a family matter?"
A: No.
Q: Did you in New York call Nicole's mother a whore?
A: No.
Q: Or beat Nicole during intercourse?
A: No.
Q: Do you know who Betsy Rocket is?
A: Yes.
Q: Who is she?
A: A friend of Nicole's. 9
Q: How long did she know Nicole?
A: I don't know.
Q: Are you aware that Nicole wrote such incidents down in her own handwriting."
A: In--during our divorce, yes.
Q: How did you become aware of that, n Mr. Simpson?
A: She told me.
Q: She told you that she had wrote these incidents down?
A: Yes. I don't know w about those specific I incidents, but she told me--
Q: Yeah, these two that I mentioned.
A: Not those specifically, no.
Q: Did she mention these to you?
A: Not specifically, no.
Q: Did she show you the things that she wrote down?
A: No.
Q: Did you ask to see them?
A: No.
Q: Did you ask her--
MR. BLASIER: May I have a moment?
(Pause in the proceedings.)
MR. BLASIER: Thank you.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Right?
MR. GROMAN: Is there a pending question?
MR. PETROCELLI: Is there a pending question?
(Pending question read as follows: Did you ask her--)
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did you ask her for the details of any of the incidents that she wrote up?
A: No.
Q: Did she actually tell you that she made them up?
A: Yes.
Q: All of them?
A: Well, I don't know about all. I don't know what all of them were at the time.
Q: Did she tell you how she went about making them up?
A: I don't know if--The question, I don't know if I can answer that specifically.
Q: Well, what I am trying to find out is whether she explained to you how she invented these I stories.
A: How she invented them?
Q: Yeah.
A: No. Just why they did them.
Q: You've already said that. Right?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: That was to trump up a charge against you to get out of the prenuptial agreement?
A: Those weren't my words, I don't think.
Q: That was the gist of it?
A: Yeah, the gist was to try to get me to tear up my prenuptial agreement.
Q: What did your prenuptial agreement have to do with these incidents?
A: I guess they wanted more money out of my divorce.
Q: And how would manufacturing incidents help in the divorce?
A: Well, my lawyers didn't think it would happen at all, but I guess they were trying to attack my prenuptial based on abuse or something or thought I'd be--I don't know what they thought. Maybe they thought they could blackmail me into tearing up my prenuptial agreement.
Q: Are you referring to an agreement that you had with Nicole following the 1989 incident in which you said that if you ever willfully physically inflicted injury on her again, that you would tear up your prenuptial agreement?
A: No.
Q: What are you referring to?
A: A prenuptial agreement we signed when we got married.
Q: In what year?
A: 1985.
Q: That's when you got married. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And you and Nicole had a prenuptial agreement before the marriage?
A: Yes.
Q: She was represented by lawyer?
A: Yes.
Q: And you were also?
A: Yes.
Q: Who was her lawyer?
A: I don't know. I think it was Clemens.
Q: Bruce Clemens?
A: Yes, I believe so.
Q: Who was yours?
A: I think Goldberg.
Q: And Nicole told you that the lawyers told her that if they came up with incidents of abuse, they could somehow get out of the prenuptial agreement?
A: That wasn't her exact words, no.
Q: But to that effect?
A: Yes.
Q: And if they got out of the prenuptial agreement, that she would get more money from you?
A: Yes. But those weren't exactly how she said it to me, her words, no.
Q: Do you remember how exactly she said it?
A: Yes.
Q: Tell me.
A: She said that--This is after she had made up her mind she wouldn't do it. She said they were trying to get her to say all kinds of things, and she wouldn't do it, and they even had a psychologist that they tried to make her go to make her hate me," quote, unquote, "hate me," and that she was sick of it all.
Q: Who was the psychologist?
A: Susan Ford.
Q: Did Nicole go to her?
A: I don't know, but in the things that I've read since I was in jail, yes.
Q: Did Nicole tell you that she actually went to this psychologist and said--told her stories that were not true about abuse?
A: No. She told me that--she said that this lady was trying to make-- this lady was crazy. I believe she even wrote it down, and I believe it's in discovery, that this woman is crazy. "She's trying--her words to me, "She's trying to make me hate you, and I'm not gonna go to her anymore."
Q: Did Nicole tell you that she had in fact seen this psychologist at least once?
A: I'm not sure if she said at least once. She just said that they had her going to this psychologist who was crazy.
Q: Did she tell you that she had told this psychologist fabricated stories about abuse?
A: I don't think she got into that about the psychologist. She was just telling me in general that that's what they were trying to get her to do, and she wouldn't testify to it.
Q: : Did Nicole tell you--Withdrawn. Mr. Simpson, when did you first find out from Nicole that she was involved in inventing these stories of abuse?
A: Around I believe it was May or June--middle of Mayor June of '92.
Q: Now, she filed for divorce in January or February. Do you remember the month?
A: I believe February, end of January, early February.
Q: 1992. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And the divorce was over in October of 1992. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And she said she didn't want to go through with it, and this was about May or June. Right?
A: Go through with what?
Q: With the stories of abuse.
A: Yes. Yes.
Q: And from that point on, do you know whether that effort by her to invent these stories was abandoned?
A: Yes. My lawyers never brought it up to e again.
Q: Your lawyers had been bringing it up to you before then?
A: Yes.
Q: Who were your lawyers?
A: Jerry Goldberg, Skip Aft.
Q: Excuse me?
A: And Skip Taft.
Q: And Skip Taft?
A: Yes.
Q: But the divorce proceedings went on. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: From that point on, did the subject of abuse ever come up in your divorce proceedings?
A: Not that I know of
Q: Now, you had--there was a trial that began, did it not?
A: Yes.
Q: And it lasted one or two days?
A: Well, I testified and, once again, she wouldn't testify to that, so she didn't show up one day.
Q: And that was the end of the trial?
A: She came to my house and we settled, and the trial was just about over.
Q: This was about near the end of the trial. Correct?
A: This was virtually the end of the trial, yes.
Q: How long had the trial lasted?
A: I don't know.
Q: About a week or so?
A: I don't think so, but we were in and out of town, so I'm not really sure.
Q: When you testified, Mr. Simpson, did you give any testimony about the subject of abuse?
A: If they asked me, yes.
Q: And did they?
A: I'm pretty sure they did.
Q: You mean your lawyer?
MR. BAKER: Please don't point at him.
MR. PETROCELLI: I am not pointing in an offensive manner. I'm just pointing my pen, Mr. Baker.
MR. BAKER: It's in the eyes of the beholder, Mr. Petrocelli.
MR. PETROCELLI: For the record.
Q: In any event, did both lawyers question you about abuse?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Did they ask you whether you had ever engaged in physical abuse of Nicole?
A: At this moment I don't recall, but I'm sure there's a record of it.
Q: And what did you say?
A: In what respect?
Q: About whether you had engaged in acts of physical abuse.
A: Since I don't know what the exact questions were or if there were questions at all about it, and I'm not clear at this point if there were, I can't tell you what my answers would have been.
Q: You had conversations, with Nicole around this time that if she testified to such acts of abuse, it would damage your earning potential and damage the--her prospects for getting money as well. Correct?
A: I personally had no contact--no conversation, with Nicole about the divorce. I didn't want to talk about it. I said, "Let the lawyers deal with it."
Q: When she came to you and told you that she was inventing stories of abuse, you told her that if she went through with those stories, that that would damage both of you financially. Correct?
A: That's incorrect.
Q: Did that subject come up at all?
A: No. When she told me is when she had already made up her mind not to do it.
Q: you understood there is no-fault divorce, at least at that time. Correct?
A: I thought so, yes.
Q: And do you understand how the issue of abuse was relevant to your divorce case?
A: You should ask her lawyer. I don't, no.
Q: Did you have any discussion with Nicole at any time after she filed for divorce about her not pursuing charges of abuse against you in the divorce case?
A: Not at all.
Q: You never tried to discourage her from asserting such claims?
A: She can do whatever she wants to do.
Q: You never tried to discourage her?
A: Exactly.
Q: And never even discussed it?
A: Didn't discuss it.
Q: There did come a time in your marriage to Nicole that you and she entered into an agreement that if you ever willfully inflicted injury on her again, that the prenuptial agreement would be voided. Correct?
A: That's correct.
Q: And so in making that agreement, you agreed that you had inflicted physical injury on her in the past. Correct?
A: Yes. And it wasn't an agreement. It was
something I gave her. She didn't-- she just accepted it. So it was just something I offered.
Q: And the reason you offered it is because you felt responsible for beating her. Correct?
A: No. I felt responsible for her injuries and--on--in 1989.
Q: Well, you felt responsible for inflicting those injuries. Correct?
A: If felt responsible for those injuries, correct.
Q: Not for inflicting them. Right?
A: Not necessarily that, no.
Q: Did you ever abuse her after that agreement?
A: No.
Q: Did she sign that agreement?
A: I believe so.
Q: Did she sign it after you sent it to her?
A: She couldn't have signed it before I sent it to her.
Q: Shortly after?
A: I don't know.
Q: Did she wait a long time before signing it?
A: I don't know.
Q: Did Nicole tell you whose idea it was to invent stories of abuse against you?
A: No.
Q: Did you tell your lawyers what Nicole told you?
MR. BAKER: Are you talking about him telling Jerry--
MR. PETROCELLI: Whether Nicole --Withdrawn.
Q: Did you tell Jerry Goldberg or any other divorce lawyer of yours that Nicole told you she had been inventing stories of abuse against you?
MR. BAKER: Well, I don't think he has to tell you that. That's protected by the attorney-client privilege. So don't answer that, Mr. Simpson.
MR. PETROCELLI: You instruct him not to answer?
MR. BAKER: Yes.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did you tell anyone other than your divorce lawyers that Nicole had been inventing stories of abuse against you in the divorce proceedings?
MR. BAKER: Any lawyers at all, OJ., and then you can answer the question.
THE WITNESS: I'm sorry?
MR. BAKER: Did you tell anybody other than your lawyers, whether they be divorce lawyers, your criminal lawyers, your civil lawyers, any lawyers that you've had, did you tell anybody else? You can answer that question.
MR. PETROCELLI: That wasn't my question.
MR. BAKER: I understand that, but we are not going to get into whether he told myself--
MR. PETROCELLI: Skip Taft? Oh, let me make it clear.
Q: At or about the time that Nicole told you that she was inventing stories of abuse against you, did you tell anybody other than your divorce lawyers?
A: Not that I can recall.
Q: And prior to Nicole's murder, did you I tell anybody other than your divorce lawyers that she ; had invented stories of abuse against you?
MR. BAKER: Well, and you can exclude any other lawyers that you told who were representing you at the I time. You can't ask him if he told other I lawyers. You can ask him, but he isn't required to answer.
MR. PETROCELLI: I excluded all of you folks and Mr. Cochran and so forth.
MR. BAKER: I understand that, but you haven't excluded Skip Taft who's a lawyer who's represented him for 25 years, and he is entitled to the same attorney-client protection as any other citizen.
MR. PETROCELLI: I don't believe that's protected information, merely conveying that kind of fact to a lawyer. But put that aside, and you've instructed him not to answer, so I will change my question.
Q: Other than lawyers--other than your lawyers, prior to Nicole's murder did you tell anyone that Nicole was inventing stories of abuse against you?
A: I'm sorry. The first part of that question, I was spaced out.
Q: Okay. I am focusing on a time period before Nicole's murder. Did you ever tell anyone other than your lawyers that Nicole had invented stories of abuse against you?
A: I can't recall. I can't recall. It seems that I've had the conversation, but I just at this time can't recall with who.
Q: Can't recall a single person that you said that to other than lawyers. Is that right?
A: That's correct.
Q: Did Nicole tell you whose idea it was to invent these charges?
MR. BAKER: Asked and answered, but you can answer it again.
THE WITNESS: When she told me, she told me that she wasn't going to do this, and I think her words were always 'they. '
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Meaning the divorce lawyers?
A: That's who I assumed she talking about.
Q: When she said she wasn't going to do this, did she tell you that she had gone so far as to write all these incidents down?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever discuss that Nicole had made up these stories with the Browns, Louis or Juditha or Denise or any member of the Brown family?
A: I may have, yes.
Q: With whom?
A: It would have been Judy, and I don't know if it was concerning this or another time, but I'm sure I had a conversation about one incident, at least, with Denise.
Q: Relate that conversation that you had with Judy.
A: I don't know. I know Judy and I talked about just about everything then, so I can't relate the conversation, any specific conversation, but I'm pretty sure that I brought it up with Judy.
Q: The fact that Nicole had been making up these stories?
A: Not that she had been making up these stories. What the lawyers were intimating to me. Because I didn't know what was going on. My lawyers informed me. I didn't inform my lawyers.
MR. BAKER: You don't have to talk about what your lawyers informed you, OJ
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: I am asking what you and Judy Brown discussed and what you told her.
A: We discussed just about everything that was going on at the time.
Q: Did you tell her what Nicole had told you about making up stories?
A: After Nicole told me? After? I'm not sure.
Q: I told you about this story concerning physical confrontation in New York, and you said none of it was true. Is it true that you don't even remember having an argument with her at this anniversary party in New York because she was talking to a man in a bar?
A: I don't ever recall having an argument with Nicole for talking to a man, period. I mean, an argument with her, no.
Q: Did you--do you recall an incident where you beat and kicked Nicole and put her in a wine closet?
A: Never happened.
Q: Never happened?
A: Never happened.
Q: You bruised her leg on that occasion. Do you recall that?
A: Never happened.
Q: Do you recall any argument where Nicole went to a wine closet to get away from you?
A: No.
Q: Do you have a wine closet?
A: Now I do. And I think you could call it a wine closet now, but before then I don't think so.
Q: When did you get the wine closet?
A: I don't know. In the '9Os sometime.
Q: Do you recall an incident when Wayne Hughes, your friend, spoke to you about your hitting Nicole?
A: No.
Q: Do you recall any conversation with Wayne Hughes about your hitting Nicole?
A: No.
Q: Do you know whether Nicole ever went to talk to Wayne Hughes about being hit.
A: No.
Q: Whether Wayne observed an injury in the form of a red spot on Nicole?
A: No.
Q: You don't know anything about that?
A: No.
Q: And if Nicole wrote that down that's not true?
A: I don't know what she did with Wayne Hughes, so I can't tell you if it's true or not.
Q: But it's not true that you hit her and caused a red spot. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: Did you and Nicole ever go to a track meet in San Jose?
MR. BAKER: The only thing I have to say about that is, why?
THE WITNESS: I don't know. I can't recall.
BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Did you ever--did you get into an argument with her at a track meet or leaving a track meet where you forced her to get out of a car?
A: No.
Q: And left her stranded?
A: No.
Q: If Nicole wrote that in some notes, then that's not true. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: Do you recall an argument with Nicole at a restaurant called La Cantina in 1982?
A: No.
Q: Where Denise Brown was also present?
A: No.
Q: And do you recall, following that dinner at La Cantina, you went home and started throwing Nicole's clothes from her closets?
A: No, not at all.
Q: Smashed framed photos of the Brown family members?
A: No.
Q: And threw Nicole against the wall?
A: No.
Q: That's not true?
A: Not true, no.
Q: Do you recall an incident at Rockingham in 1984 or 1985 where you smashed 20 to 30 or so framed photographs of the Brown family?
A: No.
Q: Is there anything similar to that that occurred?
A: No.
Q: Where Nicole was crying outside of the house because you were smashing photographs of members of her family?
A: No.
Q: No such event occurred?
A: Never happened.
Q: So if anybody said they saw that, then they would be lying. Is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: What are you writing down there?
MR. BAKER: Writing a note to his counsel.
MR. PETROCELLI: You don't know that, Mr. Baker. He could be writing down the name of a witness. Who knows. I'm just asking.
Q: What is that, Mr. Simpson?
A: Something for my lawyer.
Q: You don't want to share it with us?
A: No.
Q: Do you recall an incident in around Rockingham in 1986 when you hit Nicole and tore her sweater and slacks completely off?
MR. BAKER: Why don't you frame your questions--
THE WITNESS: No.
MR. BAKER:-- Did an incident occur, instead of making it a fait accompli, especially in light of his past answers?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did such an event occur?
A: No.
Q: Wasn't there an event when you took Nicole to a doctor, Dr. Martin Alpert, and told the doctor that she suffered an injury as a result of a bicycle accident?
A: I may have taken her to a doctor, but I think she told the doctor that.
Q: Was that true?
A: I wasn't there when it happened. That's what she told me. I took her to the doctor, and that's what she told the doctor.
Q: Do you remember the injuries that Nicole had on that occasion?
A: Well, I don't think there was anything to see, but she told me she had a headache, so I thought she should see a doctor.
Q: X rays were taken of her head?
A: Yes.
Q: And did you notice any wounds or bruises or anything on her when you took her to the doctor?
A: No.
Q: What did she tell you about how that injury occurred?
A: She told me she was Betting off the bike and trying to get Sydney out of the back seat, the back thing that she was carrying, and evidently she fell back.
Q: She fell back?
A: Yeah.
Q: And you were not there at the time?
A: No.
Q: Was it Dr. Alpert?
A: I don't know.
Q: But you didn't hit her on that occasion?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever go to Victoria Beach with Nicole?
A: Yes.
Q: That's near Laguna Beach?
A: Yes.
Q: Was there an incident where you hit her on the beach?
A: No, never.
Q: And she fell to the ground and cried?
A: No, never.
Q: Did you have an argument with her on the beach in Victoria Beach where she cried?
A: No.
Q: Now, if such a person saw that, he would not be telling the truth. Is that correct?
A: That's correct.
MR. BAKER: Who is "such a person"? Any person saw that?
MR. PETROCELLI: Anybody.
Q: Did you ever call Nicole abusive names when she was pregnant?
A: No.
Q: Like, "You are a fat pig"?
A: No.
Q: Never said those things to her?
A: Absolutely not.
Q: Do you have a memory of what you do when you drink excessively?
A: I don't think I really drink excessively too often, but, yes. I don't ever recall blacking out, no.
Q: In the course of your relationship with Nicole, were you ever with her when you were drunk?
A: When I think I was--would be called legally intoxicated, yes.
Q: On a number of occasions?
A: Over 17 years, I would say yes.
Q: And on those occasions do you recall your behavior?
A: For the most part, yes.
Q: And on any of those occasions with Nicole when you were drunk, did you hit her?
A: No.
Q: If you did hit her, would you remember?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you recall going to see something called Disney on Ice with Nicole in 1987?
A: Not particularly, no.
Q: And do you recall whether you-- getting into a big fight with Nicole after seeing an Ice Capades or ice show?
A: No.
Q: Nothing like that?
A: No.
Q: Do you recall Nicole taking Sydney and some clothing and leaving the house after seeing an ice show?
A: No.
Q: Do you recall having a very heated argument with Nicole in Hawaii in 1988 because she let Justin kiss a gay man?
A: Not particularly for that. but I do recall having an argument with her then, yes.
Q: What was that about?
A: We were--I don t recall what it was-- that portion was about. But I do recall what the argument was about.
Q: What was it about?
A: She called my father I t
Q: And what did you do?
A: I left.
Q: Did you hit her?
A: No.
Q: Did this have anything to do with Justin kissing a gay man?
A: It could have--the conversation --subject could have started then, yes.
Q: And explain to me how it started.
A: I don't recall how it started. I just recall that the argument started at a later time when she made a derogatory remark about my father.
Q: Now, did you get upset with Nicole because you -because she permitted a man to hold Justin upon leaving a restaurant and kiss him?
A: No, but I would have if I'd have saw it, yes.
Q: You did not hit her on that occasion?
A: No. No.
Q: Do you recall an incident in which you hit Nicole in the rear of a limo?
A: I never hit her in a limo. Or any other place, for that matter.
MR. BAKER: I object to the form of these questions, "Do you recall, which is a fait accompli that such an incident occurred, and I object to those questions.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Was there an occasion when you went with Nicole to a charitable fund-raiser at a Rodeo Boulevard nightclub and in the back of a limousine, returning home to Rockingham, you backhanded her with your hand and hit her in the face?
A: No.
Q: No such thing occurred?
A: Never occurred.
Q: And then when you got home to the house, she ran up the stairs and you were lunging and swinging at her?
A: No.
Q: Do you recall if there was an incident in Malibu at the Red Onion in the summer of 1989 where you, Nicole, Denise and Julienne Hendricks were having drinks?
A: No.
Q: Do you know who Julienne Hendricks is?
A: No.
Q: Have you ever been to the Red Onion in Malibu?
A: No.
Q: Do you recall having drinks at a restaurant with Nicole and Denise and perhaps others in which you became loud and unruly and hit Nicole?
A: No. That never happened.
Q: What about if I were to change it to the Red Onion in Sanu Ana? Would your answer be the same?
A: It never happened.
Q: Or any other city. Right?
A: I never hit Nicole in any restaurant or any other city, no.
Q: Never slapped her in the face two or three times on that occasion?
A: No. Can I ask you a question?
(Discussion held between the witness and counsel outside the hearing of the reporter)
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Do you recall an incident when you got into a heated argument with Nicole for-- You don't like the preamble.
MR. BAKER: I really don't.
MR. PETROCELLI: I am not trying to trick him. I'm trying to find out information.
MR. BAKER: Well, you're--just ask him, "Was there an incident..."
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Was there an incident when you got upset with Nicole because she had just gone off to Aspen?
A: No.
Q: And you were upset that Nicole was photographed in Aspen without you?
A: I wouldn't have known if she was photographed without me.
Q: And you shoved her against the Bentley. Did that occur?
A: No.
Q: This is in January of 1994. Does that ring a bell?
A: Nicole in January of 1994?
Q: Yeah.
A: Nicole went to Aspen without me?
Q: I am asking you.
A: No, never happened.
Q: Did you go to Aspen with her?
A: In January of '94, no.
Q: After your divorce from Nicole, did you tell Judy that you loved her and you wanted her back?
A: No.
Q: you never said that to her, Judy?
A: After our divorce?
Q: Yes.
A: No.
Q: Did you tell Judy that you can't live without her?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever tell Judy Brown that you could not live without Nicole?
A: No.
Q: Or words to that effect?
A: No.
Q: After your divorce did you ever tell Judy Brown in words or substance that, "People say I should stay away from her, but I can't. I love her, and I can't let her go?"
A: After our divorce?
Q: Yes, after your divorce.
A: No. No.
Q: This was 1992.
A: No
Q: After your divorce.
A: No.
Q: Never said such a thing?
A: Never said such a thing.
Q: After-- at any time after your divorce, did you tell Judy Brown that, "The only woman I want in my life and I can't have is your daughter"?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever tell any of those things to anybody else?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever go to Aspen in order to find out who Nicole was with?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever go to Aspen separately from Nicole?
A: Yes.
Q: When Nicole was also in Aspen and so were you?
A: No.
Q: So you have never been--Withdrawn. Have you ever been in Aspen at the same time Nicole was at a time when the two of you were not together?
A: No
Q: Did you ever make plans to go to Aspen to find out who she was with?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever go into a restaurant called Tryst and encounter Nicole with another man?
A: That's not--I can't answer, the way that's worded.
Q: Why don't you explain to me what happened.
A: I went to a restaurant and -- called Tryst, and I was with a group and Nicole was with a group of people.
Q: Who were you with?
A: An actor named Keith and a group of people that he had, girls mostly.
Q: And who was Nicole with?
A: Cora, Cici, Greer, I think this Keith Zlomsowitzh, and there were one or two other people there.
Q: Did you talk to Nicole that evening?
A: Yes.
Q: This was a time when you were separated from her. Right?
A: That's correct.
Q: And she had filed for divorce. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Before you met Paula. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And did you stare at Nicole during the course of this evening?
A: I looked at her, yes, for sure, yes.
Q: Why were you looking at her?
A: Because she was there.
Q: You were sitting at another table. Right?
A: Yes. Yes.
Q: And she was with another man. Right?
A: She was with a group of girls.
Q: Including another man.
A: There was a guy in the group, yes.
Q: Keith Zlomsowitzh. Right?
A: That's correct.
Q: You had already seen Nicole having sex with Keith as of this time, hadn't you?
A: No.
Q: That was later?
A: Yes.
Q: And did you stare pretty consistently throughout the evening at Nicole during this evening?
A: No.
Q: You just looked over?
A: Looked over a few times. It was the first time I was ever in a restaurant with her and we weren't together in 15 years, yes.
Q: That was the very first time?
A: Yes.
Q: And what did you say to her on that evening?
A: I came over and talked to her and talked to the table, said hello to everybody that was there. Gave her a kiss. She gave me a kiss. I went back to my table.
Q: Were you feeling jealous?
A: No.
Q: Now, shortly thereafter, do you recall an incident when you were looking through Nicole's window at her Gretna Green condominium and saw her having sex with Keith Zlomsowitzh?
A: I couldn't answer that the way you worded it.
Q: Why not?
A: Because when you say I was "looking," it gives the impression I was standing there looking in her window. No. As I--so I can't answer it the way you worded it, no.
Q: Describe what you saw.
A: I was walking to her front door, and her drapes were open on a window. As I was approaching her front door, I saw her, and I looked and saw her with--I didn't know who the guy was because I couldn't see the guy, and she was obviously involved in sex, so I left.
Q: Was that oral sex?
A: That's what it appeared to be, but I really couldn't see, but that's what it appeared to be.
Q: Now, what time of evening was this? MR. BAKER: He didn't say it was evening.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Was it in the evening?
A: It was at night. I would say it was midnight to 1:00 o'clock maybe, 11:00 to 1:00, somewhere in that area, I would say.
Q: Were you invited to Nicole's house that night?
A: No.
Q: You just went on your own?
A: Yes.
Q: This was during the time that you were separated and in divorce proceedings. Right?
A: That's correct.
Q: When you saw her through the front window having sex with Keith or with this man, what did you do?
A: I turned around and walked out, and I hit the doorbell as I walked out of her gate.
Q: You hit the doorbell?
A: Yeah. I just hit it so they'd maybe be aware that they were kind of in the open.
Q: You mean that people could see?
A: Yeah. If somebody was walking up to the front door, it'd be pretty tough not to see.
Q: You didn't knock on the door?
A: No.
Q: And did you--How long were you at a place in front of her door where you were watching or where you could see her?
A: Where I saw. Five to ten seconds that I actually saw, yes.
Q: And did it bother you when you saw her having sex with this man?
MR. BAKER: In what way? In other words--
MR. PETROCELLI: Emotionally.
MR. BAKER: Well, it could be emotionally because of his kids are there; it could be emotionally because of jealousy, and I think that the question is vague.
MR. PETROCELLI: I think he can answer for himself, Mr.--
MR. BAKER: Well--
MR. PETROCELLI: You don't have to feed him answers.
MR. BAKER: I am not feeding him answers. I'm trying--
MR. PETROCELLI: He didn't say anything about the kids. Why don't you let him answer the question? That's all.
MR. BAKER: The question is vague and I instruct him not to answer.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: How did you feel when you saw Nicole having sex with this man through the window?
A: I was stunned.
Q: You were angry?
A: No.
Q: Jealous?
A: At the time I was just stunned. It was just--
Q: Why were you stunned?
A: Because I had been with her for at that time 15 years, and even if I had not been with her, I think I would have been stunned to see--if I walk up on anybody having sex, that would stun me, but that stunned me.
Q: During that 15 years you were with her, l20 did you ever have sex with another woman?
A: Yes.
Q: Many times. Right?
MR. BAKER: Don't answer that. That's irrelevant and immaterial to any issue in this case.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Your marital infidelity was the subject of constant fighting and disagreement with Nicole. Correct?
A: I wouldn't say that, no.
Q: From time to time, though. Correct?
A: Yes. Or alleged infidelities.
Q: you mean none of them was true?
A: I meant there were times when we had arguments about things I wasn't doing.
Q: And times you had arguments about things that you were doing. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: Was there any other reason you were stunned?
A: I don't think I needed any more reason to be stunned. My kids were there. It was very open. It's just not something you would expect to see, l walking outside. You just wouldn't expect to see.
Q: How do you know your kids were there?
A: I assumed that they were there. If they weren't there, she would have told me and they would have spent the night with me or stayed at my house. I just assumed my kids were home. And the next day when I really found out my kids were home, she let me know that they were home.
Q: But at that moment in time you didn't see your kids. Right?
A: No.
Q: You didn't see them anywhere in the room, did you?
A: No.
Q: And how late was it?
A: I told you, it was somewhere between 11:00 and 1:00.
Q: Now, the next day did you go back to Nicole's place?
A: Yes.
Q: And what was your purpose in going there?
A: I wanted to discuss that, what I had saw, with her.
Q: And did she invite you over?
A: No.
Q: Did you call first?
A: No.
Q: And when you got there, did you knock on the front door?
A: The kitchen door. I may have just walked in the kitchen door.
Q: That's around the back?
A: No. It's in the front.
Q: Did you knock on the kitchen door or just walked in?
A: Just walked in.
Q: Did you have a key to that place?
A: No.
Q: When you just walked in, where did you go?
A: I called upstairs, and then I walked to the backyard.
Q: No one was upstairs?
A: Maria, I believe, was upstairs.
Q: Maria who?
A: Housekeeper.
Q: Do you know her last name?
A: Bauer.
Q: Is she related to Nicole?
A: Sister-in-law--I mean cousin-in-law.
Q: She is the wife of Nicole's cousin?
A: That's right.
Q: Rolf?
A: Rolf.
Q: R-O-L-F
A: Yes.
Q: When you called upstairs and Nicole wasn't there, what did you then do? Go outside?
A: Yes.
Q: What happened when you went outside?
A: When I walked in the back, I saw Nicole in the bedroom.
Q: In the?
A: A bedroom that was downstairs.
Q: Downstairs in the main house?
A: Yes.
Q: And did you walk into the bedroom?
A: Yes.
Q: And what did you see in the bedroom?
A: Keith was giving her a massage.
Q: Were they fully clothed?
A: Fully clothed.
Q: Both of them?
A: Yes.
Q: What did you then do?
A: I told Nicole I needed to talk to her.
Q: Did you take her out of the room?
A: No.
Q: Did you talk to her right there?
A: Yeah, after Keith left we talked.
Q: She asked Keith to leave?
A: Eventually, yes.
Q: What happened during the moment when you got there and Keith was there?
A: I told her we needed to talk about some things.
Q: What did she say?
A: "About what?"
Q: What did you say?
A: I told her I didn't want to talk about it in front of him.
Q: You referred to the person as "him"?
A: Yes.
Q: Were you introduced to him?
A: I had met him before.
Q: When?
A: I don't know, but I had already met him before.
Q: When you came in, did you say hello to him?
A: Yes.
Q: Shake his hand?
A: At that time, no.
Q: And did she then ask Keith to leave?
A: Yes.
Q: And you talked to her then?
A: Yes.
Q: In the bedroom.?
A: Yes.
Q: What did you and she talk about?
A: Basically about I wanted to know how we were gonna start handling this with the kids, and I told her that she, you know, has to be a little more careful, because I had seen them that night, and that in the future, you know, with the kids there, that she couldn't quite be that way. She agreed with it, and we d. Well, how are we gonna handle this with the kids?" And she said, "What? And I said, "Well, now that we're obviously gonna, you know, start seeing other people. The kids still thought we were girlfriend and boyfriend or man and wife. And her attitude was that it was a mistake. Evidently they had been drinking and doing some other things, and she said it shouldn't have happened. But my attitude was it did, and obviously now we would start seeing other people, and what was the best way we could handle it with the kids, and she talked about not really having guys stay over in the future and that that would never happen with the kids I in the house in the future. And it was just all that type of conversation, and that was it. There was no argument at all.
Q: You could have waited and had that discussion with her at another time. Right?
A: I guess so.
Q: Could have called her on the phone and had it. Right?
A: I guess so.
Q: You could have made an appointment to talk to her also. Correct?
A: Could have done many things.
Q: But you felt the need to do it then and there. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: So you're saying Nicole fully agreed with your attitude?
A: Yes.
Q: Did she complain about your coming over unannounced and uninvited?
A: No, because she did it to me; I did it to her at that period of time. Neither one of us was in a relationship, so it was just something that we both did.
Q: Now, at any time when she was living at Gretna Green--By the way, she lived in Gretna Green after she moved out of Rockingham. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And that was shortly when she filed-- after she filed for divorce?
A: Yes.
Q: And then she lived there from like January-February '92 until the end of '93. Correct?
A: I believe so.
Q: And then she moved into Bundy from January of '94 to June of '94. Correct?
A: That's correct.
Q: At any time when she lived at Gretna Green, did you ever go over to her place uninvited, unannounced, other than these two occasions?
A: All the time.
MR. BAKER: Well, I object, whether he is uninvited.
MR. PETROCELLI: He said he was on these two occasions.
MR. BAKER: That's okay. He can answer.
THE WITNESS: If I can word it a little differently than you, we had a standard invitation to one another that I was always welcomed at her house and she was always welcomed at my house. So two or three times a week I would go to her house and have dinner with her and the kids and-without calling, or vice versa. I knew what time the kids ate, and I'd come over about that time, and some nights she showed Up at my house and some nights I showed up at her house.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did there come a time when this arrangement ended because one or both of you got involved in relationships?
A: That's correct.
Q: And when did that end?
A: For me it ended that night. For her
Q: What night?
A: That night of Keith and her incident. For her it took a while for it to end.
Q: When you say it ended for you that night, what did you mean, just to be clear?
A: I didn't come over uninvited after that. I would always call at least when I was on my way, and if there was a problem--
Q: Except you came over the next day. Right?
A: Pardon?
Q: You came over the next day. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: But after that you never came over there again without an invitation. Is that right?
A: Without alerting her that I was coming.
Q: Without telling her in advance. Right?
A: Well, calling when I was on my way at least.
Q: Did you ever go at night to the house and stand on the sidewalk and walk back and forth and try to look in and see who was there?
A: No.
MR. BAKER: This is either Gretna Green or the condo? Because, I mean
MR. PETROCELLI: Gretna Green.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did you ever do that at Bundy?
A: No.
Q: At any time did you ever go to either Gretna Green or Bundy to see what was happening and who Nicole was with and just sort of check on her whereabouts?
A: No.
MR. BAKER: All of the above? All three questions?
MR. PETROCELLI: Any of those.
THE WITNESS: Say them again.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did you ever go to Gretna Green or Bundy to check on Nicole, to see who she was with, what she was doing, kind of looking and standing around the outside?
MR. BAKER: Don't answer that question.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: That's the picture I'm painting for you. Okay?
A: No.
Q: None of that ever happened?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever stalk her?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever follow her?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever ask anybody else to follow her?
A: No.
Q: Or stalk her?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever ask anybody to report on her whereabouts to you?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever follow her into a Payless Shoe Store one time on Lincoln Boulevard--
A: No.
Q: --in Sanu Monica?
A: No.
Q: Do you recall anything like that?
A: I remember seeing her at a Payless Shoe Store once.
Q: You just happened to run into her?
A: No. I saw her car when I was coming down Lincoln Boulevard.
Q: And then you followed her car?
A: No.
Q: You just saw the car go by?
A: She was coming out as I was coming down Lincoln.
Q: Did you stop and talk to her?
A: No.
Q: Do you know who Carl and Catherine Colby are?
A: Yes.
Q: Who are they?
A: I believe they live next door to Nicole.
Q: If they saw you walking in front of Nicole's house on Gretna Green from time to time looking inside the window, would they be lying?
A: Yes. Looking inside the window, yes.
Q: Doing anything.
A: I'm sure they saw me. I've been to Nicole's house so many times, I'm sure they saw me walking--
Q: Attempting to look into the windows?
MR. BAKER: I don't know what that means. I don't know how you attempt--
MR. PETROCELLI: You try to walk up to the window and see if you can see through.
THE WITNESS: If they said that, they'd be lying, yes. That's not what they said.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: That's not what they said?
A: Not in court.
Q: What did they say in court?
A: They said in court that they saw me on the sidewalk one night.
Q: Do you recall that occasion when they saw you?
A: That particular occasion, no.
Q: Who is Bill Thibodeau?
A: A guy who plays golf, that I know who plays golf.
Q: Did you tell Thibodeau that you knew of a secret way or a back way to Nicole's house?
A: I don't know of one, so I obviously didn't tell him that, no.
Q: Did you ever tell Thibodeau "Sometimes she doesn't even know I'm here"?
A: No.
Q: So if Thibodeau said that, he would be lying. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you ever drive up to Starbucks in Brentwood in 1994 and encounter Nicole?
A: Yes.
Q: Describe that incident to me.
A: I'm sure that happened many times.
Q: Where she would be at the Starbucks Cafe?
A: Yes.
Q: And you would -- These are times when you're not together. Right?
A: No.
Q: When you went with her, you mean?
A: No. My of office is one block away, and between her house, my house and the office, she goes there a lot, and I'm going to and from my office and stuff a lot.
Q: Walking?
A: No. Normally I'm riding. I think once I was walking to lunch and she was sitting there, yes.
Q: And on any of these occasions did you ever stop and ask her to come talk to you?
A: No. I--if I was there, she would talk to me.
Q: Did you ever get angry at her because you wanted to know who were the men that she was talking to?
A: No.
Q: Never happened?
A: Never happened.
Q: Did you ever see her talking to Ron Goldman in front of Starbucks or in Starbucks?
A: No. I wouldn't have recognized it if it was him.
Q: When you saw pictures of Mr. Goldman at the trial, did that cause you to remember that you had seen him at Starbucks?
A: No.
Q: Did you--You met Paula in July of 1992 or thereabouts. Right?
A: No.
Q: When?
A: May.
Q: May. And you began to date her. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: And you saw her for about a year before you stopped dating her. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And the reason you stopped dating her is because you began to date Nicole again. Correct.
A: Essentially, yes.
Q: And that occurred in about April of 1993. Right?
A: April, May, June, yes.
Q: How did that come about?
MR. BAKER: How did what come about?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Your attempted reconciliation with Nicole.
MR. BAKER: Well, I think that's a... Let's just say, how did it come about that he started dating Nicole again.
MR. PETROCELLI: That's fine.
MR. BAKER: Fair enough?
MR. PETROCELLI: Fair enough.
THE WITNESS: In March, I hadn't spoken to Nicole in a few months, and she finally sort of cornered me, and she showed up at my house with the kids and some video and a letter and crying, telling me she wanted to get back together. And I told her I wasn't interested, but for the next few weeks she just came by all the time and was sending me cupcakes and notes and tapes through the kids, and was just showing up everywhere I went. And I began to talk to her, and she was--she was relentless. She'd show up at the golf course, and it began to be a problem. So my mother told me I should, you know, get alone with her and find out exactly what it was-- what was happening with her. I spoke with her mother. And Nicole just told me she loved me and she hated what was going on in her life, and she wanted to get back with me, and for the kids she wanted us to get back together. And I told her that I'd start--okay once a week we'd start having dinner together with the kids and--but that didn't help, because she then began to show up at the golf course with her girlfriends and started taking golf lessons and started coming to my house. And I love Nicole, so it just got to the point that the time I was with her and the kids during this three-month period-- I had a conversation with Paula about it, and at some point, I believe it was in May, Nicole showed up at my house one morning when my m friends and I were going to Mexico and wanted to know where we were going, and I told her. Two days later Faye Resnick, her and the kids showed up where we were in Mexico, and during the course of that week Nicole and I had spoke a lot and I told her I think I'd be willing to try it under some conditions, and we ended up trying it.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: What were the conditions?
A: That she couldn't come in--she couldn't move back to my house and that I would do it for one year; that she could not move back into my house; there was a certain person that I would not socialize with, and there may have been one or two others. But the big condition was she was-- she really wanted to move back in and I wouldn't let her, and that became in a sense sort of a sore spot because it came up three or four times within the next year. But I figured at the end of a year, if it was working, I'd let her move back in, and I told her I'd give her the year, and that's what I gave her.
Q: Who was the person that you didn't want to socialize with?
A: A girl named Pam Greer--I mean
Q: Robin Greer?
A: Robin Greer, yes.
A: Yeah. I've known her a lot longer than Nicole, yes.
Q: Does she have a relationship to Rosie Greer?
Q: Is that a friend of Nicole's?
A: No.
Q: No relationship at all?
A: No.
Q: When did this reconciliation that you just described occur? Or the ground rules and the arrangement, when were those made?
A: Right around Mother's Day of 1993.
Q: As part of that did you tell Paula you would stop seeing her?
A: Paula and I had dinner and talked about it.
Q: And then you stopped seeing her. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Was the arrangement with Nicole that neither of you would see other --have other dates?
A: I don't think we ever really said that to each other, but I'm sure that was, you know, sort of an understanding, even though I never asked her if she was seeing anyone else during that period of time. I m assumed she wasn't, but I don't know.
Q: Now, as part of this did you also have a discussion that both you and Nicole were to disclose to each other all prior relationships that you had had since the separation and divorce?
A: No, but she did that to me.
Q: She did? She volunteered that information?
A: She volunteered that information.
Q: What did she tell you?
A: She just told me some of the guys she had things with.
Q: And did you share that information on your part?
A: At that time, no.
Q: Later?
A: No.
Q: And did you also agree that you and she would remove all photographs and other items in the households about other persons in your lives?
A: Not necessarily, no.
Q: What do you mean, "necessarily"?
A: When we came back from Mexico, I still had some pictures in Paula's house that for the most part irritated her, so I took them down, but I never m asked her to remove any pictures of her, and she didn't, of her and various guys that were in her house, and she didn't.
Q: She didn't?
A: She didn't.
Q: You didn't tell her to take out all photographs of her other boyfriends?
A: No.
Q: And you had no desire that she do so?
A: Well, I wish she had, but she didn't, and that was the way it was.
Q: Did you have a fight about that?
A: When?
Q: During this reconciliation period.
A: It came up one night. In the midst of a fight it came up.
Q: That she had photographs of other men?
A: That they were still in her house,
Q: Now, what was the reason, by the way, that you and Nicole got divorced back in 1992?
A: What she told me was that she loved me, but she's been with me her whole life, that she just felt that she needed to be on her own. She just felt that, you know, that I was almost like a big brother or father to her, that all of our friends she had met through me, and that she just felt that she needed to in a sense spread her wings. And there was no argument, and we lived together for 30 days, and there was no arguments during those 30 days.
Q: And it wasn't your idea to get divorced?
A: Yes.
Q: Is that correct?
A: For the filing, yes.
Q: And you hoped that you wouldn't get divorced. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: So you were not in favor of it. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you try talking her out of it?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you go into counseling with her?
MR. BAKER: At that time?
MR. PETROCELLI: Prior to her filing for divorce.
MR. BAKER: At any time prior to filing for divorce? Because--
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Well, let's take--The two of you together, did you go into counseling let's say six months before the divorce?
A: I don't--no, she wouldn't go into counseling. She didn't want to go into counseling.
Q: Had the two of you ever been in counseling together--
A: Yes.
Q: --at the same time?
A: Yes.
Q: How many times?
A: I can't tell you.
Q: Who was the counselor?
A: Bert Kitaen; there was a guy we tried once, but she walked out, and those are the two I recall.
Q: So about May of 1993 you started to date her again?
A: Yes.
Q: On a regular basis?
A: Yes.
Q: And did you have any--Describe how the relationship evolved during that year.
A: I don't understand.
Q: How did it progress?
A: I don't know what you mean by progress.
Q: Did you get along?
A: Yes.
Q: Were there any conflicts?
A: What do you mean by "conflicts"?
Q: Did you have any big fights during that year?
A: Yes.
Q: When was the first one?
A: The only--big fight? The only one we had was one. I think it was in October of '93.
Q: And what happened?
A: What do you mean?
Q: What was the cause of the fight?
A: The cause of the fight was something that a girl named Alex, who had been Keith's fiancé. I was shooting a movie, and on the set of the movie she was telling me things in front of people about one -- things that Keith was saying about me and things that Nicole and Keith had done during the time we were apart.
Q: This woman named Alex was saying these things?
A: I think her name was Alex. She was Keith's fiancé or they were just splitting up, and Keith was in a drug thing or something, she was saying, and she shared some things that upset me.
Q: And what did you do after you heard that?
A: I confronted Nicole with them.
Q: You went to the house?
A: Yes.
Q: This is in October of 1993. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, was Alex relating things that Nicole and Keith had done--
A: With her. I mean not sexual, but --not sexual things.
Q: But before your reconciliation with Nicole. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: These were things that had been done in 1992. Correct?
A: Yes. Yes.
Q: Why did you feel the need to confront Nicole?
A: Well, I confronted Nicole more with what she said Keith was saying about me and the subject matter of what she was discussing that they had all done in a restaurant. I didn't think it was right, So--
Q: What was it?
A: Drugs.
Q: And you went to Nicole's house to discuss that?
A: I told Nicole about it.
Q: On the phone?
A: On the phone and at her house.
Q: Now, did you go to her house?
A: I'm sure I did in that period of time, yes.
Q: Did this conversation start on the phone?
A: Probably at her house.
Q: And how long did the conversation last?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Several hours. Right?
A: No.
Q: And during the course of this conversation, you saw a photograph of Keith?
A: No.
Q: In a photo album.
A: No.
Q: With him and your kids?
A: No.
Q: Or with Nicole?
A: No.
Q: That never occurred that evening?
A: No.
Q: So this had nothing to do with seeing a photograph of Keith. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Is that the evening that the police came out?
A: No.
Q: What was the month?
A: October.
Q: Of 1993. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you and Nicole somehow resolve this disagreement?
A: I can't answer that. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know if it ever was resolved.
Q: Did you get into a heated argument that evening?
A: Which evening, now?
Q: The one you're describing.
A: No.
Q: Now, how long after that did you have this incident when you came to her place on Gretna Green and the police came out?
A: I believe it's three or four days later
Q: What led to that?
A: I was at her house for dinner, and she relayed to me that Keith had called and evidently was denying everything that this girl had said concerning me, and Nicole relayed to me that she told him that "OJ. understands you guys are split-up, and women will say anything, you know, when people are splitting up say things about one another. And I didn't particularly like her characterizing my attitude, so I went home. I told her I didn't like it, and I went home.
Q: Just picked up and went home?
A: Yes.
Q: And what happened next?
A: She called me.
Q: At the house?
A: Yes.
Q: And what did she call to talk about?
A: To remind me that I had always said that, you know, we should talk things out or I had agreed at some earlier date that we would discuss things, and how we gonna progress if I leave all the time.
Q: And then what happened?
A: I thought about that after a while, and I got in my car and went to her house.
Q: Did you tell her you were coming?
A: No.
Q: What time was it when you went to her house?
A: I don't know. Evening?
A: Yes.
Q: What happened when you got there?
A: She was trying to move her cars, and there was something she was trying to do with her cars and garbage, so I got out of my car and sort of pulled her Ferrari into the garage. And we were talking during this exchange, and we walked through her kitchen into her patio, and she was smoking a cigarette and we were debating this whole thing.
Q: And then what happened?
A: Somehow in the midst of the conversation she threw Paula in--got Paula into the conversation. Evidently while looking for a frame to put my kids' pictures in to send--because I had requested later pictures for my New York condo, and I guess she had some pictures blown up; and while she was looking for frames at my house, she came across a picture of Paula on the shelf where we keep all our empty frames and things in a frame. That evidently was a frame that once had n one of our wedding pictures in, and she yelled something about, you know -- uncomplimentary about Paula in our wedding album--in our wedding frame. And I at that point said, "What the hell are you talking about? Look at all of these pictures in your house." And at that point she turned to go into the house. I came--I was, you know, yelling, came behind her. She kinda slammed the door, and as I approached the door, I kicked it. And we were both in her family room, and I was saying, "Well, look at all of these pictures. Who is this guy? Who is this guy? And I picked up an album and was going through my son's album, and I said, "Look here, I got-- for the rest of my life, I got to see this-- "Justin sitting on Keith's lap." And my attitude was, and I can't tell you specifically what my words was, "I never tell you to move any of these pictures. Who in the hell are you to be telling me about a picture that's on a shelf that's put away in my home?" And I assumed she was still downstairs, because we were having a big argument, and I think Kato arrived about that time, and I--you know, at one point I went into the kitchen where I thought she was, and she wasn't. And I don't know if you want me to continue to talk. You're asking me what happened. That's essentially what happened.
Q: And you were pretty angry. Right?
A: I was pissed off.
Q: And you were yelling and cursing. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And you--when she closed the door, you kicked it open. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And broke it, in fact. Right?
A: Well, it was--the majority of it was broke, which--the majority of it was already broke, which she admits to.
Q: Who admits to?
A: Nicole.
Q: How do you know that?
A: I heard the tape when she was talking to the police officer.
Q: so you're trying to say you didn't break the whole door. Right?
A: No. I think a part of it may have broke when I kicked it, yes.
Q: Did you frighten her?
A: I didn't see her frightened, no.
Q: When you were yelling and screaming at her, do you think she was frightened?
A: She was yelling and screaming back at me, so, no, I don't think she was frightened.
Q: Do you think she feared that you were going to hit her?
A: No.
Q: You don't think that?
A: No.
Q: Isn't it true that most of that argument at that point was about Keith? Right?
A: No.
Q: And you were yelling and screaming about Keith. Correct?
A: He may have come up during the course of that argument, but that wasn't what most of it was about.
Q: And in fact you started talking about something that occurred a year and a half ago when she was having sex with Keith. Right?
A: Yeah. At one point she told me, after I went back downstairs and was venting at--venting to Kato my feelings about whatever we were arguing about, she said to me, "OJ., the kids," and I made a comment, "You weren't worried about the kids when you were sucking his dick here in the living room in the open, and I went back to venting to Kato how I was feeling. And at some point she came down where I was venting, and I assumed --she didn't appear afraid, because if she was afraid, why would she walk back into this room I was in. And she said something to me, a couple of words we had with each other, and she picked up the phone, and I assumed she was speaking to her mother, and shortly after that the police came.
Q: Did you know that she had called the cops?
A: No, not at all.
Q: so it surprised you when they came?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, you were saying much more to her about Keith than just that she had had sex with him in the living room. Right.
A: Yes.
Q: you were going on and on about Keith. Right?
A: About this asshole--
MR. BAKER: I don't know what "on and on" means.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: "About this asshole"--
A: About this asshole talking about me like this, doing drugs. And during the course of this conversation Nicole revealed that this girl was a Heidi Fleiss girl. Evidently they were all together when she had her fight with Heidi that started that whole thing, and if you listen to the up you will hear me refer to Heidi Fleiss on numerous occasions. And I just was very unhappy with all of this crap about drugs, about hookers, and I wanted to know why she had brought these people into my kids' home, and I'm mad today when I think about it, yes.
Q: But that was a person who was in her home more than a year before that incident. Correct?
A: Yes. Yes.
Q: And you were still upset about it then?
A: Because I had just become aware of it, yes.
Q: Did you threaten to hit her?
A: No.
Q: Did you tell her that you--Excuse me one second.
MR. BAKER: Dan, we've got--
THE WITNESS: I can take a leak, too.
MR. LEONARD: If he's on a roll...
MR. BAKER: Is this a good time?
MR. PETROCELLI: No. Let me just finish up this area. (Pause in the deposition.)
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Okay. Did you say to Nicole on that occasion, "I'm leaving with my two fucking fists, is what I'm leaving with"?
A: No.
Q: You deny saying that?
A: Yes.
Q: I ain't leaving till I've said what I'm saying."
A: I could have said that, yes.
Q: "You ain't leaving when I'm talking. "Did you say that?
A: I don't believe so, no.
Q: "Hey, I had to read this bullshit all week in the National Enquirer." Did you say that?
A: I don't know about "all week," but yes.
Q: Now, what week were you referring to where things came out in the Enquirer?
A: Just prior to this there was a story in the Enquirer that evidently one of her friends gave, talking about how I had begged her to come back to me and I was--she was taking it day by day, the complete opposite of what the facts were, and it just irritated me that here I am, just back with her for four or five months, and already through her group of friends, they're writing about us in the National Enquirer, and I wasn't happy with that.
Q: And that was the week of this incident in October?
A: I don't know if it was that week, but it was previous to this. It was previous to this incident.
Q: When the police came, you were still there?
A: Yes.
Q: And you were still upset?
A: Yes.
Q: And you talked to the police?
A: Yes.
Q: And they didn't arrest you, did they?
A: No.
Q: They treated you fairly?
A: I believe so, other than the tape.
Q: What tape?
A: The surreptitious tape that they did.
Q: How did you find out about a surreptitious tape?
A: I heard it when I was in jail.
Q: Who played it for you?
A: One of my attorneys.
Q: And what bothered you about that tape?
A: That they would surreptitiously tape me and not turn it in as evidence and I assume use it for amusement for a year. I don't think that's proper.
Q: But everything you said on that tape-- But what you heard on that tape is what you said. Right?
A: Yes. Yes. Not all of what I said, but what I said, yes.
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay, you can take a break.
MR. BAKER: Thank you. I will ask your permission from now on.
MR. PETROCELLI: Yes, I know you will.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 2:48.
(Recess.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record now. The time is approximately 3:25. This is the end of tape No. 2 of Volume IV. The time is approximately 3:25, and we are off the record.
(Recess)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are on the record. The time is approximately 3:27. This is the beginning of tape No. 3 of Volume IV.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Now, in I984 there is an incident where you smashed Nicole's car with a baseball bat. Is that true?
A: I hit her windshield, yes.
Q: And you broke the windshield?
A: It cracked, yes.
Q: And where was the baseball bat when you got it?
A: I don't know. Somewhere around my house.
Q: And where was the car?
A: In the front yard.
Q: And you were arguing with Nicole where?
A: I don't know if it was an argument. I wouldn't characterize this as an argument. We were having a discussion.
Q: About what?
A: Getting married.
Q: About whether you should get married?
A: Well, me not setting a date.
Q: She wanted to get married, and you were vacillating?
A: She wanted me to set a date, yes, and I was vacillating.
Q: And did it then develop into a heated argument?
A: No.
Q: Where was this? Inside or outside?
A: Outside.
Q: Then you went inside and got a baseball bat and hit her car?
A: No.
Q: What happened?
A: I was outside when she came home. She got out and went and used the bathroom and came back outside, and we were talking about this marriage thing. I was sitting on the front of her car talking, sitting on the side of the front of her car talking--
Q: Mercedes?
A: Yes.
Q: Is this on Rockingham.
A: Yes.
Q: Then what happened?
A: I was bouncing the tire--I mean the bat off the tire. You know, I was holding the bat like this (Indicating), the nub of the bat, and we were talking, and between my legs inadvertently just bouncing, letting it hit the tire and bounce and bounce, and I gather it hit her--it hit the hubcap a couple of times during this conversation, and at one point she walked up and looked and said, "If you dent that hubcap, you're gonna pay for it." And I went bam, and I said, "I'll pay for that, too." She said, "Yeah, you're gonna pay for it," and she went in the house and I guess pushed a button for Westec, then came back out and finished talking, and then we both went into the house. And at some point a Westec guy came, and we walked out, and he was there about a minute, and then somebody else came, who I'm told was Mark Fuhrman.
Q: When you said, "I'll pay for that, too, "what did you hit? The windshield?
A: The windshield.
Q: Did you break it?
A: It cracked, yes.
Q: Did you swing the bat with two hands?
A: No.
Q: One hand?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you just tap it or hit it hard?
A: Hard enough to crack it.
Q: You were right-handed?
A: Hit it with my left hand.
Q: Hit it with the left hand.
A: Yeah.
Q: Where did you get the bat? From inside the house?
A: No. I had the bat before. I hitting balls in the backyard.
Q: Hitting baseballs?
A: No. Actually I hit my old tennis balls. I had a tennis machine that pushes balls at you, and we played a lot of softball back then, and I used to have a weekly softball game. And I was hitting--you know, the machine would push balls out, and all at once I'd be (Indicating)--batting practice.
Q: I see. And at any time were you fighting with her?
A: No, not at all.
Q: You wouldn't characterize this as a heated argument or anything?
A: And she didn't either.
Q: Why did she call Westec?
A: Because she said, "You gonna pay for it," and I guess that was her way of making sure it was recorded so that I would pay for it.
Q: She wanted security to come out and make a report about it?
A: No, because she didn't give them any report when they came. By the time they came, it was like a past incident.
Q: When the Westec officer, Mark Day, came out there, wasn't Nicole crying?
A: No.
Q: Didn't you smash the window and body of her car with the bat because she was trying to leave?
A: No. No one has ever said she was leaving. She was not trying to leave, no. She had just got home.
Q: You admitted breaking the windshield to Officer Fuhrman. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And Officer Fuhrman treated you fairly on that occasion, didn't he?
A: There was no reason for him to be there. We didn't call him. There was nothing for him to do, as he testified, and he left.
Q: But he didn't mistreat you on that occasion, did he?
A: No. If that was Fuhrman, no. He asked a question. I answered it. He asked her a question. She answered it. He stood there and looked and left.
Q: So you deny having any kind of fight with Nicole on that occasion. Correct?
A: We didn't get into--because as I said, by the time they came, it was-- whatever this was over. But it wasn't a fight. Neither one of us yelled at each other or anything.
Q: Did Nicole ever do that on any other occasion, call Westec to come out?
A: No.
Q: You didn't scream and yell on that occasion?
A: No.
Q: She didn't either. Right?
A: No.
Q: And neither of you cried. Right?
A: No. That's correct.
Q: That's correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Now, from the period that you separated and she filed for divorce, January-February of 1992, until the time that she died in June of 1994, I want you to focus on that period. Okay?
A: Till the time we separated--
Q: When she--Basically when your marriage ended.
A: Yes.
Q: Up until the time that she died.
A: Yes.
MR. BAKER: And you are taking that from January '92 to June of '94?
MR. PETROCELLI: Correct.
MR. BAKER: All right.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did you ever hire anybody to follow Nicole?
A: Never.
Q: Did you ever hire anybody to keep track of her activities or her whereabouts?
A: Never.
Q: Did you ever have her followed by anyone?
A: Never.
Q: Did you ever ask anyone to tell you what she was doing?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever stalk her?
A: Never.
Q: Did you ever follow her without her knowledge?
A: Never.
Q: Did you ever travel to another city where she was, without her knowledge, to see her?
A: Unless she was in New York at some time that I'm unaware of.
MR. BAKER No. To see her. Listen to the question.
THE WITNESS: No. No.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Or to check up on her?
A: Never.
Q: Did you ever--Did you call people on the telephone, like friends of yours or hers or family members, to find out what she was up to or what she was doing?
A: No. No, no, no.
Q: Isn't it true that you used to call Judy Brown numerous times to discuss Nicole?
A: Yes.
Q: And isn't it true that you--During this time period. Correct.
A: Yes.
Q: And isn't it true that you used to call Faye Resnick numerous times to discuss Nicole?
A: Not necessarily, no.
Q: During a certain time period, let's say the last three, four months of Nicole's life, you had constant conversations with Resnick about Nicole. Right?
A: No. But I had some conversations, when I was in Puerto Rico, with Resnick about Nicole.
Q: When you came--You were in Puerto Rico in March of '94. Right?
A: April.
Q: April '94?
A: Yes.
Q: That's where you shot FROG MAN?
A: Yes.
Q: And right before that you were in Cabo San Lucas. Right?
A: Yeah. For two days. three days, yes.
Q: With Nicole. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And you knew that Nicole had a --was frightened of frogs. Correct?
A: A phobia about frogs.
Q: Phobia. That's the word was looking for.
A: Yeah.
Q: And you once told her in Cabo that you were the frogman. Right?
A: Yeah. They were asking me what was the script. Nicole was laying in my lap, many people were there, and they were asking me about the script, and I was talking about the script, yes.
Q: And you told Nicole you were the frogman. Right?
A: No. The people were asking about the script, and I think it was Faye that was asking, but it was numerous people sitting there, and they were asking me about the script I was reading, because I had to start work in two days on the script.
Q: Did Nicole tell you at that time that she didn't appreciate your saying that?
A: No, not at all.
Q: Did she get upset with you?
A: No, not at all.
Q: When you got back from Puerto Rico, you went back to Los Angeles. Right?
A: Correct.
Q: You didn't go out of town for any extended periods of time during May and June of 1994. Right?
A: Extended" meaning? : Like more than a week or so.
A: No.
Q: And during that time didn't you have lots of conversations with Faye Resnick?
A: No.
Q: Wasn't Faye sort of acting as an intermediary between Nicole and you?
A: No.
Q: You read Resnick's book. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: She refers to a--lots of conversations with you during that time frame. Right?
A: Yes, I believe so.
Q: Was that true, what she said?
A: What she said in the book is virtually all lies but, as I said, in April when I was in Puerto Rico, I spoke to her a few times.
Q: Virtually all lies?
A: Virtually all lies.
Q: From your own knowledge, you mean?
A: Yes.
Q: Have you ever talked to anybody about whether Faye's book contained lies?
A: I think--aren't we getting into--
Q: Other than lawyers. No lawyers.
A: Yeah. virtually everybody. I mean yes. Sorry.
Q: "Virtually everybody." Who is that?
A: Well, people I've come in contact, yes.
Q: They've all agreed with you?
A: All of them don't know her, but the people who know her agree.
Q: I mean people who know whether or not the statements would be true.
A: Yes.
Q: Who are such persons?
A: Christian Reichardt, Cora Fishman, Ron Fishman.
Q: Anyone else?
A: That would know firsthand?
Q: Yes.
A: Possibly Al Cowlings. I don't know how much he would know firsthand, but-
Q: Anybody else?
A: That I've spoken to. Oh, Judy Brown.
Q: Anyone else?
A: That would know firsthand--
Q: Yeah.
A: --that I've spoken to. I don't think so. I just can't recall anyone else.
Q: What about Chris and Bruce Jenner?
A: I haven't talked to them.
Q: And what about Candice Garvey?
A: I have--I've never talked to her other than casual in public.
Q: You maintain a current friendship with Ron Fishman?
A: Yeah, we've always been friendly. I don't see him much, but when he brings his kids over and when my kids are around, yes, I consider him a friend, yes.
Q: Consider him a friend, as well as Christian Reichardt?
A: Yes.
Q: And Cora Fishman?
A: Yes.
Q: You see her frequently?
A: When the kids are around, she comes around, yes.
Q: Are you currently involved in a romantic relationship with her?
A: With who?
Q: Cora Fishman.
A: No.
Q: Have you been?
MR. BAKER: Don't answer that. This is absurd.
MR. PETROCELLI: It goes to bias, Mr. Baker.
THE WITNESS: No. No.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Is the answer no?
A: Yes. The answer--
Q: Have you ever?
A: Never, no.
Q: Have you spent a lot of time, since you got out of jail, talking to Cora Fishman about Nicole?
A: No.
MR. BAKER: What's "a lot of time"?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Many conversations?
A: A few conversations, yes.
Q: More than five?
A: Maybe about five.
Q: All in person. Right?
A: I don't think so, no.
Q: What has Cora told you about Nicole since you got out of jail?
A: I don't know. You'd have to ask Cora.
Q: I'd have to ask Cora? I'm asking you.
MR. BAKER: He is not going to answer.
THE WITNESS: I don't remember.
MR. PETROCELLI: He says he doesn't remember.
MR. BAKER: We are not going to get into all these conversations.
MR. PETROCELLI: Well, you know, Mr. Simpson is talking to important witnesses in the case, Mr. Baker, and that's important that we know what they are saying.
MR. BAKER: So are you. You're talking to important witnesses.
MR. PETROCELLI: But I'm a lawyer. He is not.
MR. BAKER: So what?
MR. PETROCELLI: He's a party.
MR. BAKER: I don't understand the distinction.
MR. PETROCELLI: Well, he could be saying, Cora, I want you to say is and that in order to help me in my case," and that would be highly relevant.
MR. BAKER: You could be saying that to her, too, somebody from your office. And I'm not saying you are, but I'm saying it certainly is equally as possible from your side as it is from his side.
MR. PETROCELLI: But, Mr. Baker, I'm not a witness in the case.
Q: In any event--
MR. BAKER: I agree with you.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: --you did have such conversations, but you don't remember them. Correct?
A: What's "Such conversations"?
Q: With Cora about Nicole.
A: Yes.
Q: That's correct. You don't remember?
A: That's correct. Yes.
Q: In that case, we will ask Cora.
A: Please.
MR. BAKER: I think we've already got her depo noticed.
MR. PETROCELLI: You do?
MR. BAKER: We do.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Excuse me?
MR. BAKER: There is no question pending.
THE WITNESS: No question. I was just thinking out loud.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Going back to that time frame now between January 1992 and June of 1994, did you ever keep a book in which you listed Nicole's whereabouts?
A: No.
Q: You know that one was found in Paula Barbieri's car?
A: No.
Q: Ever been informed of that fact?
A: I heard some thief and--some guy made an allegation that it was but I didn't give it much. credence. It was like the National Enquirer or something.
Q: That was just tabloid journalism. Right?
A: A lot of what you've been asking me has been tabloid journalism.
Q: What makes you say that?
A: Because I saw it in tabloids.
Q: You sold photographs to the tabloids, didn't you?
A: No.
Q: To the Star magazine. Right?
A: No. I made a deal with a guy, and he sold photographs to them.
Q: You knew they were going to be sold to the tabloids. Right?
A: To the Star, yes.
Q: Yes. So they're not all that bad, are they?
MR. BAKER: Don't answer that.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: What was your answer?
MR. BAKER: Don't answer that.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: In other words, you'll take their money.
MR. BAKER: Do not answer that either. Be nice, Daniel.
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay. Let's get back here.
Q: I want to talk a little bit more about your relationship with Nicole during this time period.
MR. BAKER: And we are in January of '92 to June of 1994?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Were you trying to convince Nicole to resume a relationship with you before you met Paula?
A: Yes.
Q: And she was resisting. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And when she was involved with Keith and other men, you were unhappy about that. Right?
A: No.
Q: You were jealous about it. Right?
A: No.
Q: It didn't bother you at all?
A: Well, once she got involved with other men, and she had one incident with Keith, and by the time anyone else came into her life, I had just met Paula.
Q: Was Keith the first man after your separation that you knew that she was involved with?
A: Well, basically yes.
Q: Who were the other men she was involved with during this time period?
A: During what time period?
Q: January '92-June '94, if you know.
A: A guy named Alejandro.
Q: Alejandro.
A: Yes.
Q: Who else?
A: As far as I know, that was it.
Q: Did he have another name?
A: I didn't know another name.
Q: So the only two men that you knew Nicole was romantically involved with during that time frame were Keith and Alejandro. Is that right?
A: I didn't know that. I saw her with Keith, and she told me right when it was over it was a mistake and a one night thing, and Alejandro I knew had been around, yes.
Q: "One-night thing"?
A: That's what she said.
Q: To you?
A: She said it was a mistake. They were drunk and loaded, evidently.
Q: She told you this after you guys got-- tried to get back together again?
A: No. She told me that the day that I came over the next day and spoke to her.
Q: What day was this? The Zlomsowitzh day?
A: Yeah. I've already told you this.
Q: You didn't tell me about Alejandro.
A: Well, you're now asking me about Alejandro. You were just talking about Keith.
Q: I'm a little confused.
THE WITNESS: Yeah. He knows. It was clear.
MR. PETROCELLI: I'm confused. I know that's not the test. Okay?
MR. BAKER: That isn't the test? Thank God.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Are you telling me that the day you went over to talk about Keith, she told you about Alejandro?
A: No.
Q: Explain. When did you find out about Alejandro?
A: Early on.
Q: Early on in your relationship. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And then you later found out about Keith. Right?
A: I saw her with Keith. It wasn't "find out." I saw her with this guy one night.
Q: What about Joseph Perulli?
A: That was after all this. She came to my house to talk to me about Joseph.
Q: When was that?
A: The day after Mother's Day in '92.
Q: What did she tell you about Joseph?
A: That she had met a guy that she felt serious about, but she wasn't sure, and she wanted some advice from me.
Q: What did you say to her?
A: I told her to "Just be yourself. You're gorgeous. What is there for him not to like, plus you ain't gonna cost him a dime."
Q: Why is that?
A: Because she was getting plenty of money from me.
Q: Now, by this time had you met Paula?
A: Actually, I met Paula two days after this.
Q: So you still wanted to get back with Nicole when she came to talk to you about Joseph. Right?
A: I would have, yes. I would have.
Q: But you told her to do what she wanted. Right?
A: No. I gave her the best advice I can give her. She found a guy who she liked, and if your wife told you that there's a guy that she was crazy about, I think you would move on, and that's what I did.
Q: Did she tell you about any other men besides Joseph, Alejandro and Keith?
A: As I said, the Keith thing wasn't a matter of telling me about it, and Joseph was a guy that she told me about, yes.
Q: And you mentioned Alejandro.
A: Yes, but I had knew about Alejandro.
Q: What about a guy named Brett Shaves?
A: I don't think he was in her life at this point in time.
Q: I am talking about all the way up until 1994 when she died.
A: Okay. Brett Shaves I found out about at one of our divorce hearings.
Q: First time you found out about it?
A: Yeah.
Q: And was that the only--last time you talked to Nicole about Brett Shaves?
A: I didn't talk to her about him then. She just told me about him.
Q: And that's the last time you spoke about Brett. Right?
A: Yes. When we were back together, he may have come up a few times. Any other men that came into her life during this time period that you and she discussed?
A: What do you mean by "came into her life"?
Q: In other words, men that she was involved with romantically or men that she was, dating and she--you found out about it one way or the other.
A: There was a few guys, I can't recall their names. Marcus Allen, and a few guys I can't recall their names.
Q: When did you find out about Nicole's relationship with Marcus Allen?
A: I think it was the last week of March of 93.
Q: This is before Nicole started pursuing you to resume a relationship with you?
A: No. This was in the midst of her pursuing me to resume a relationship with her.
Q: Is this, Mr. Simpson, after you and she agreed under certain conditions to see each other again?
A: No. It was before then.
Q: Before then.
A: Yes.
Q: And was Marcus Allen married at the time?
A: No. He was planning a marriage at my house at that time.
Q: And that marriage went ahead on schedule?
A: Yeah.
Q: That was a marriage to Katherine. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And they got married in your backyard?
A: Yes.
Q: On Rockingham.
A: Yes.
Q: When was that?
A: I don't know. May Or June.
Q: I 993? k was a couple months after this relationship between Nicole and Marcus. Right?
A: Well, the incident she told me about.
Q: Tell me the incident.
A: He--
MR. BAKER: He told you that he heard about it at the end of March. I don't think there was a foundation it was a couple months later.
MR. PETROCELLI: Yeah.
Q: What did Nicole relate to you about Marcus Allen?
A: That he had been coming around. Originally she was telling me that he wasn't my friend, that he was coming around. She started crying. We were at dinner.
Q: You two alone?
A: Yes. And that evidently something had happened at some point.
Q: You mean they had sex?
A: Yeah, in a manner of speaking.
Q: That's what Nicole told you?
A: Yes.
Q: One time?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, Marcus was a good friend of yours. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And when you learned this, were you surprised to hear this?
A: Yes.
Q: Were you upset about it?
A: Probably, yes.
Q: And what did you do about it?
A: I asked for a check.
Q: And you guys went home?
A: I took her back to her car, and I went home.
Q: Did you then talk to Marcus about this?
A: The following week.
Q: You called him?
A: No. He was at a friend's house that I was talking to in New York.
Q: And you were there with him.
A: No. I was at my house, my friend was in New York, and then Marcus was there.
Q: Who was the friend?
A: Mark Packer.
Q: And what did you say to Marcus?
A: I told him, "Marcus, do me a favor and ease up on Nicole, because whatever's happening with you is really screwing her up. She's like going bonkers."
Q: Did Nicole tell you to do that?
A: Yes, in a--yes.
Q: What did she say to you?
A: Well, when I dropped her off at her car, I said, "So, you know, why are you telling me this?" And she was saying, "Because he s calling me." And he just called the day, I guess, that day, and wanted her to meet him in Miami, and she thought it was wrong. And I said, "Why don't you tell him you're gonna tell Katherine? Why are you telling me?" And she said she didn't want to screw Up his relationship, and that if I told him, he'd stop.
Q: Did you ask Nicole if this was the first time she had had a relationship with Marcus?
A: No.
Q: Did it stop then to your knowledge?
A: I assume so. To my knowledge, yes.
Q: What did Marcus say to you when you suggested that he back off?
A: He was in a room with people; he said nothing, but the next week I was taking a nap and he walked into my bedroom and apologized.
Q: And to your knowledge that's-- that was the end of it?
A: To my knowledge, yes.
Q: Now, did you ever learn that Nicole was seeing Marcus again in 1 994?
A: No.
Q: In about March, April or May or June?
A: No.
Q: Did anybody tell you that?
A: No.
Q: Did anybody tell that you they saw his car at Nicole's place at Bundy?
A: No.
Q: Did anybody tell you that he was in town during that time frame, let's say March through June?
A: I played golf with him, so I'm sure he was in town.
Q: And to the best of your knowledge, the subject of he and Nicole being together never came up. Is that right?
A: Yes, that's correct.
Q: There was a time in late--there was a time in May 1994 when you and Nicole ended your attempted reconciliation. Right?
A: When I ended our reconciliation.
Q: Why do you say you as opposed to both of you?
A: Because I told her I couldn't do it anymore.
Q: It was your decision, not hers?
A: Yes, that's correct. I told her, "I gave it a year, the year's up, and I can't do it anymore."
Q: And you at that time felt like you were; free and unattached from her. Correct?
A: Yes.
MR. BAKER: You mean romantically as contrasted to the mother of his children?
MR. PETROCELLI: Romantically, emotionally, correct.
THE WITNESS: Well, romantically. I don't know totally about emotionally. I was still concerned about her, yes.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: you didn't want to have a commitment with her anymore and a life together with her. Right?
A: Yeah, I didn't want to deal with it, no.
Q: You did not want to deal with it.
A: Did not want to deal with it.
Q: You wanted to be free of her. Right?
A: No. I wanted her to get herself together, and I just couldn't deal with what was going on, and I just didn't want to be a part of it.
Q: So in your mind at that time you viewed that as a temporary break-up. Right?
A: No. I was just moving on. Just whatever was happening in her personal life, obviously I had spent a year with her, and I didn't see where I could help it one way or the other, and I wanted to move on and get back to what I had been doing before we got back together.
Q: What I am trying to find out is whether then you were prepared to move on permanently from Nicole.
A: As a lover, yes.
Q: Lover--
A: Yes.
Q: --spouse, in that way.
A: Yes, in that way, yes.
Q: Now, during that time frame after you said you made that decision, did you here about Marcus and she seeing one another?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever talk to Marcus after Nicole 's death to find out whether he was seeing her?
A: I talked to him, but not to find out if he was seeing her again.
Q: You talked to him about what?
A: Well, he was a friend and he'd call, and I talked to his wife often from jail, Katherine, and when it came out that Nicole and he had had a relationship, I talked to Katherine a few times to kind of help her through it.
Q: When is the first time you spoke to Marcus Allen after Nicole's death?
A: He came to jail once, I guess, and he may have called--he and Katherine may have called that week from where they were.
Q: That was the first time?
A: The first week that I was--after the murder and the first week of the murder, I assume so. So many people were calling me, I'm just assuming Katherine and Marc called--Marcus called during that time.
Q: You were pretty upset with Nicole, after the two of you started to get back together in March- April of 1993, with respect to Keith Zlomsowitzh, weren't you?
A: No.
MR. BAKER: Pretty upset"?
MR. PETROCELLI: Yeah.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: In other words it was a subject that came up from time to time. Right?
A: No.
Q: You brought it up in 1993, right, in October?
A: In October it came up, yes. I didn't bring it up, but it came up through Keith's girl, yes.
Q: And the image of her having sex with him was still fresh in your mind. Correct?
A: No.
Q: you were sort of obsessed with her having that relationship with Keith. Right?
A: No.
Q: Didn't bother you at all?
A: Her with Keith, with Marcus, with any of them didn't bother me at all.
Q: Not at all.
A: No.
Q: Is Keith the only man that you ever saw Nicole have sex with?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you ever threaten Keith?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever say anything to him that if he didn't get away from Nicole, he'd be sorry or words to that effect?
A: Never.
Q: Did you ever attempt to threaten or intimidate him?
A: No
Q: Who--Withdrawn. Did you enter the Mezzaluna restaurant one evening while Nicole and Keith were having dinner?
A: I don't know. I don't think so.
Q: Did you come into the restaurant and approach Zlomsowitzh and say "I'm OJ. Simpson and she's still my wife"?
A: No.
Q: That never happened?
A: Never happened.
Q: So if Keith said that, he's lying.
A: Yes.
Q: Now, during this time when you were attempting a reconciliation with Nicole, let's say April of 1993 and for the next year, did you and she fight quite a bit?
A: No.
MR. BAKER: Not--
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Generally get along?
A: Yes.
Q: And did you feel that the relationship was heading towards a permanent reconciliation?
A: Only at one time.
Q: When was that?
A: Right before I went to Puerto Rico.
Q: So from--And that was in April of 94. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: From the time you started this attempted reconciliation in the prior year up until April of '94, are you saying that there was sort of slow but continuous improvement?
A: I'd say we got along, but I didn't --I didn't really want to--I had pretty much told her, if we worked out the year, we'd marry after that, and I didn't want to get married again, and I didn't think I would--I didn't think I loved her that way enough to marry her at the end of--at the end of the year, and I liked--I sort of liked the arrangement. I didn't want--as much as I wanted my kids, I just couldn't see myself living with Nicole forever.
Q: When did you come to the realization during this time period that you didn't love her "that way" anymore?
A: From the moment we got back together, I never felt that I could get it--I never felt I got it all the way back until right before I went to Puerto Rico. That was the first time I thought, well, maybe it will work.
Q: Was there anything that happened in Puerto Rico that made you feel that way?
A: Before I went to Puerto Rico.
Q: Before you went to Puerto Rico.
A: We just had a great couple of weeks We had a great time in Cabo. She came home from Cabo early and we had just a super weekend, and when I was leaving for Puerto Rico the next day I called her parents and I told them that I felt--you know, "I may be wrong, Judy, "--and Lou. I told them both-- "I may be wrong. I just had a couple of great weeks with your daughter, and maybe it will work."
Q: What month was this when you-- right before you went to Puerto Rico after Cabo?
A: This would have been the first of April, I believe, or the last of March or the first of April.
Q: Did you have a confrontation with her at the Jenners' Christmas party in 1993?
A: Sort of. Sort of. Yeah. I would say sort of a confrontation, but not an argument, but sort of a confrontation.
Q: You were at the party, and this guy Joe Perulli was there, and you got upset. Right?
A: No.
Q: That had nothing to do with it?
A: That had nothing--Well, I mean, it wasn't about me being upset. That didn't make me upset. It was some stuff around it.
Q: What happened that made you upset?
A: That day Paula Barbieri and her mother sent a thing of flowers, a Christmas basket, and Nicole was at the house I believe with Cora Fishman and stuff when it came, and she was looking at it and she said, "Oh, what a beautiful basket," and when she looked at it, she saw it was Paula; she left. She got mad and left. That night--
Q: Where did she go?
A: Home. And that night we were having people at our house, which we always have on Christmas Eve. We have a lot of people at our home, Mike, all the kids, and we had dinner scheduled for 8:00 o'clock, but Bruce had invited us over, and since we weren't going to go over, we decided we'd go over and have a drink. And I think Nicole and I and the kids and maybe Kato, we went there, and at some point I guess Joseph came in. And shortly after he came in all, of l a sudden anybody who sat with me was saying things like, "Oh, OJ. ,he wasn't invited. He wasn't supposed to be here. " I think Chris Jenner said that. Cici said that. And when Nicole sat down and said that, I said, "You see, these things happen. I didn't know Paula was going to send these things, and now everybody's telling me this guy wasn't supposed to be here, " which I totally expected him to be there because, as far as I knew, he was one of Bruce's close friends. And I said, "You see, this Paula thing"--and I think she called me a liar or something. And I said, "You think I'm lying about that?" And she says, "Yes." And I said, "Well, we've had our drink. k's time to go," and we left.
Q: Did you order her to go?
A: No. I called for the kids, and I walked out to the car, and she came out.
Q: She wasn't ready to go, though. Right?
A: Maybe she was. Maybe she wasn't. I don't know.
Q: You left angrily. Right?
A: I don't think I was angry. I wasn't yelling or screaming or anything, but I wanted to get out of there. It's Christmas Eve; I'm home for one day; I got to get on a plane on Christmas Sunday; I don't want to be sitting here having people tell me all night, or at least for the next I 5 minutes or 20 minutes, that some guy is there and he's not supposed I to be there. It's Christmas Eve. We should be in a 12n happy mood here. Let me go home where my kids are and where my meal is waiting and where my friends are waiting.
Q: So did you argue with her in the car on the way home?
A: No. She got in the car and said something and I said something, and that was it.
Q: End of it.
A: End of it. Not another word spoken about it.
Q: So if Kaelin says otherwise, he's lying. Right?
A: He didn't say otherwise.
Q: He does?
A: He didn't.
Q: Have you spoken to Kaelin since you got out of jail?
A: No.
Q: Not one time?
A: Not one time.
Q: How do you know he didn't?
A: I saw his statement. I heard him on the stand.
Q: You have a pretty good memory of what people have testified to, don't you?
A: Well, since I've been out--since I was in jail, I did a whole lot of watching, yes. I paid attention.
Q: Took a lot of notes?
A: To talk to my lawyers, I took notes, yes.
Q: What happened after Puerto Rico to set you back with Nicole?
A: Well, while I was in Puerto Rico, something was going on with Nicole. She was like-- she even said to me on two occasions she felt like she was having a nervous breakdown, but she couldn't explain why or what it was, and it was just--I would talk to her one minute, she was the Nicole I knew, and then if I talked to her the next day, she was somebody I didn't know. I expressed my concern to her mother while I was in Puerto Rico. I tried to get a hold of Cora, but she was going through her problems. I talked to Faye, who blamed it on Cora. And when I came home, I just--it was just something I did not want to have to deal with in my life. I just didn't want to deal with it anymore.
Q: These were all telephone calls from Puerto Rico--
A: Yes.
Q: To Nicole in Los Angeles?
A: And vice versa, yes.
Q: And when did you come back to LA. from Puerto Rico?
A: The end of April, first of May.
Q: And you came right back to Brentwood?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, did you go see Nicole?
A: I spent the night with Nicole.
Q: Did you tell her then that you wanted to stop the relationship?
A: The next day I told her that I thought we need to go to therapy, and I needed her to go--I wanted her to go back to whatever she was going to. When she asked me to come back in the relationship, she prefaced all of that with the therapy she was going to and how it had helped her, and I suggested that she try that again and--
Q: With you?
A: With me, without me, whatever.
Q: And what did she say?
A: She didn't know. She wanted-- she thought whatever the problem was, it was just--I think she kinda blamed it on her friends. She was l trying to help Faye with her drugs, help Cora with whatever she was going through with her husband, I and-- but as I said right before I came back from Puerto Rico--she had said "OJ., I'm sorry?" She apologized for the whole time I was there. She said, "I want to pick you up at the airport," which she did. So I was sorta at a place where I'll try it, but I really kind of wanted out, and by the end of the week I totally wanted out.
Q: W hat happened that week to cause you to make that decision?
A: Saturday we were about to go to dinner, and she almost had a nervous breakdown.
Q: Saturday when?
A: Saturday in Laguna, probably about the 7th or 8th of May.
Q: Before Mother's Day?
A: The day before Mother's Day. And even though she was very--she was fine on Mother's Day, the night before it was just too weird for me.
Q: What happened that night?
A: I don't know. She slept All day. We went to a--we went to Denise's son's christening, and Nicole was rude--
Q: To you?
A: No. To Denise. Denise really had some horrible things to say about Nicole that day. And then Nicole went to our apartment and slept all day, and I woke her up at 8:00 o'clock to go to dinner. She got dressed, and when she got to the door, she just kinda flipped out.
Q: What did she do?
A: Just started yelling, "I can't do this" and "I don't know what's going"-- "Look at me. I'm shaking." And it was just weird.
Q: Did she tell you if she was upset about something?
A: No.
Q: Was she better the next day?
A: She was great the next day.
Q: And how did you feel about her the next day?
A: I just was looking for the time to --it was Mother's Day, so we had a very nice Mother's Day. We actually had a lot of fun, but I had made up my mind then that unless she went to therapy, I was not going to continue with the relationship.
Q: Did you tell her that?
A: Yes.
Q: On Mother's Day?
A: That night and the next day, yes.
Q: Now, did you give her a Mother's Day present?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you give her an earring in which you had the diamond reinserted?
A: No.
Q: Did you give her anything?
A: I think I gave her from the kids a Watchman, and I gave flowers.
Q: You gave her no jewelry. Right?
A: No. Around that time she had gotten some jewelry that had to be redone. Right around that time she had gotten it back, yes.
Q: Did you have anything to do with that?
A: Yes.
Q: What did do you? Get it fixed for her?
A: No. She lost them.
Q: These were diamond earrings?
A: Yes. And I had them remade.
Q: You gave them to her as a gift or what?
A: No. To have them remade.
Q: When did you give them to her?
A: It was over a series of time, because when they first delivered them, they weren't quite the way I wanted them to be. So Nicole sent them back, and I had to reconfigure how the wanted them to be, and then it was around that time that they delivered it to her, you know.
Q: Is this after Mother's Day?
A: It was around that period of time. I don't know exactly when, but it was around that period of time.
Q: Okay. Now, what did she say when you told her you wanted out on Mother's Day and the day after?
A: I don't know. We talked, we ended up getting very affectionate, and we teased that this is what we should do, is split up all the time, because, you know, it was kinda hot. So it was fun, you know.
Q: It was fun?
A: Yeah.
Q: So at the end of the Mother's Day and the day after, what arrangement did you reach with her about your future relationship?
A: That we would do everything we could to be good parents with the kids, and I think--you know, I think her attitude was, "Well, OJ., maybe we got back together too soon." My attitude was I wish that were true, but I just at the time was just ready to move.
Q: So that was an agreement between the two of you that that would end your attempted reconciliation, and you would just see each other as friends from that point on. Is that right?
A: And for the kids. Yeah. And it was nice because there was no hassle, and we were both totally comfortable with it.
Q: And that was the end of your romantic involvement with her. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: That was the agreement.
A: Well, you don't say, "Hey, we aren't going to screw again," but, you know, it was like, "Hey, we're split up," you know, yeah.
Q: Did you have relations--sexual relations with her--
A: No.
Q: --after Mother's Day?
A: No.
Q: When was the last time?
A: Probably what we had the day after Mother's Day, roughly that.
Q: Monday.
A: Yeah.
A: So after Mother's Day, after Monday, did you see her again?
A: Oh, all the time.
Q: But just to go visit and see the kids, that sort of thing?
A: And she came to my house. I think that week they were over one night, the latter part of that week, and slept at my house because it was too late to go to her house. We saw each other all the time.
Q: She slept in a separate room?
A: She slept in the bedroom that I was in.
Q: Same bed?
A: Yeah.
Q: Now, there was no hostility?
A: None whatsoever.
Q: No conflict at all?
A: Zero.
Q: Did she seem better to you?
A: You know, because I don't have to deal with her on anything emotional and my mind was elsewhere, I really--you know, we were just dealing with the kids and stuff, and she was always good in than I mean, I never saw anything in that area of our life together.
Q: Were you feeling better about having ended the relationship?
A: I was feeling better that I was starting a relationship again or trying to get a relationship started again.
Q: With whom?
A: Paula.
Q: And when did you start that up?
A: The next day. I think it was Tuesday, the day after I split up with Nicole.
Q: And you called Paula and said you wanted to see her again?
A: No. Cathy told me Paula was coming through town for one night and was leaving the next day and was landing that night, and I asked her--I think--I don't know if she had a plane--a car--I'm not sure if she had a car or she asked Cathy to see about a limo, I don't recall, but in any event, I circumvented that and I went to the airport when Cathy told me she had no boyfriend as far as she knew and I kinda hid at the airport, and when I saw she was alone, I kind of surprised her.
Q: Had you seen Paula at all during this attempted year's reconciliation with Nicole?
A: I think I saw her once in--she was going through Dallas and once --maybe once in Florida.
Q: Did you and Nicole used to argue over Paula during the year you were reconciling with her?
A: I can't call it an argument. You know, the big fight that night, she brought up Paula, which, as I say, wasn't the genesis of the fight It was just a part of it. Christmas, obviously, that bothered her. Paula called on the day Marcus got married, and Nicole and I was hosting the wedding, and Nicole got mad. She didn't attend the wedding. She left. I think Cora and Sydney was there, and Nicole just walked right out of the house and didn't even attend the wedding that night--
Q: Because Paula called?
A: Because Paula called to wish Marcus and Katherine--wanted me to wish them a happy time.
Q: From the time you start up this 1 relationship with Paula again and ended with Nicole-- that's around May 10, I guess--until Nicole's death of June I 2, you have about a month period there. Right?
A: Yeah.
Q: And did you continue to distance yourself more and more from Nicole emotionally and otherwise?
A: I think I was--it was like an instant--when I say a relationship, an emotional distance, it was instant.
Q: Instant when?
A: That Monday.
Q: That Monday after Mother's Day?
A: Yeah.
Q: Boom, you were able to cut it off.
A: Yeah. Yeah. It was, you know-- there was no problem. It was over. But the other side of it, the kids and stuff, we were still very--I think we were very close, and we both got accustomed again to doing things together with the kids.
Q: Let me now focus on that last month. Okay?
A: Okay.
Q: During that last month, Mr. Simpson, I take it then that you never told anybody that you wanted Nicole back. Right?
A: Correct.
Q: And you never told anybody that you were upset because Nicole wouldn't let you back in her life. Right?
A: Correct.
Q: And you never told anybody during that last month that you wanted to kill her.
A: Correct.
Q: Did you ever tell anyone at any time that you wanted to kill her?
A: Never.
Q: Even if you didn't mean it.
A: Never.
Q: Never said it.
A: Never. Never.
Q: To no one?
A: To no one.
Q: You realize Resnick wrote that you said that. Right?
A: Resnick--
MR. BAKER: Just answer the question.
THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: And that was false?
A: Yes.
A: And anybody else who would say such a thing would be lying. Right?
A: Yeah, totally lying.
Q: During that month did you have any further confrontation -- any other--Withdrawn. During that month did you have any confrontations with Nicole?
A: Yes.
Q: When?
A: I don't recall. Near the latter part of the month she called me. I was watching TV with Paula, and Nicole called me, virtually screaming at me.
Q: What was she screaming about?
A: About her friends. She didn't want me socializing with her friends.
Q: Which friends?
A: In this case, Faye and Christian.
Q: You were socializing with Faye and Christian?
A: No. Well, Christian and I were doing business together. I don't think we did any socializing together, but they--Christian was invited to the Cedars-Sinai affair that I sort of am involved with.
Q: And what happened in that conversation?
A: Then Faye--Oh, that conversation? Nicole--there it is. I mean, she was just yelling 1 about me socializing with her friends, and I didn't quite understand what she was yelling at me about.
Q: How did you end that conversation?
A: She hung up after saying something about Faye, and I had tried to tell her that I had not invited Faye. Faye had insisted on going. Plus I thought she was out of line to be calling me about this. What has this got to do with her. I never told her who to hang out with or not to hang out with.
Q: Did she used to hang up on you often?
A: She did a few times, yes.
Q: Was that the last time she ever hung up on you?
A: Yes.
A: What did you do?
A: I went back to Paula. No. I called Faye and Christian.
Q: And what did you tell them?
A: Christian answered the phone. I asked him what was going on, and he told me that Faye and Nicole just had a heated conversation, and then Faye 1 came on the phone and I asked her what was going on.
Q: And what did she tell you?
A: She told me Nicole was upset, thinking 81 that I was taking her friends, and I said to her, "But didn't you tell her you invited yourself to this l thing?" And she says, "OJ., this is not about that. Nicole loves you, and you're back with Paula," and how would I feel if she was back with one of her boyfriends. And I told her, "Hey, that was her business. Faye, do me one favor: Call Nicole. Tell Nicole that you insisted on going to this thing." And then we said good-bye, and that's the last I knew of it.
Q: Was that the end of your confrontation with Nicole?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you have any other confrontations with her?
A: No.
Q: Did you have any other arguments with her?
A: No.
Q: Disagreements with her?
A: No.
Q: Did you buy her a birthday present for her birthday on the l9th of May?
A: Yes.
Q: What did you buy her?
A: I bought her a gold Cartier lighter.
Q: Did you buy her an expensive bracelet?
A: I bought a bracelet for Paula that I ended up giving to Nicole, yes.
Q: When did you buy that bracelet?
A: Same time I bought the Cartier lighter, within days, maybe even that day.
Q: How much did it cost?
A: Not much, maybe S5-, 56,000.
Q: The what? The bracelet?
A: The bracelet.
Q: And the lighter?
A: I don't know. Whatever that is.
Q: And you gave both of those to Nicole for her birthday?
A: I ended up doing that, yes.
Q: Why did you change your mind about who to give the bracelet to?
A: Because when the kids asked me "What did we buy mommy," I couldn't tell them that they bought mommy a cigarette lighter because they and me, we were anti-smokers, my kids, so I just gave her the bracelet from the kids.
Q: Is that something that you decided-- When did you decide to do that in relation to when you gave the gift to Nicole?
A: Spontan---We were literally-- they were literally signing a birthday card and lighting the birthday cake I had brought over, and I walked down to my car, got it out and came back up and just gave it to her--gave it to them, and they gave it to her.
Q: What was her reaction?
A: She was getting over the flu, so she was kind of laid up, and she liked it. She was--the bracelet surprised her.
Q: Because it was such a nice gift?
A: Because it was so different than anything I've ever bought her.
Q: And did you intend that to be a gesture towards perhaps reigniting your relationship?
A: No. No. Just being nice.
Q: Did she take it that way, do you know?
A: Yeah.
Q: Did she take it as a gesture by you that you wanted to resume a relationship with her?
A: No. No.
Q: Did she give that bracelet back to you?
A: Yes.
Q: When?
A: A few days--I went out of town, and when I came back from town, she spent a day at my house, and I believe that night--we were talking that night, and she inquired, "Did you" --"Why did you buy me this bracelet?" And I said, "It was your birthday." And it wasn't the type of jewelry I buy her. It was just totally different than anything I had bought her, and she sort of knew that, and when she said, "Did you buy this for someone else," and I said nothing, and she gave it back to me.
Q: This was a phone conversation?
A: No. We were together.
Q: Where were you?
A: At her house.
Q: Was this on the 22nd or the 23rd of May?
A: Maybe, yeah, right around there.
Q: What was the reason you were there?
A: Because I was home and she was getting over the flu and my kids were there.
Q: What kind of bracelet was this that was a little different from what she normally got from you?
A: If was sapphire and diamonds.
Q: Was it intended for Paula?
A: Yes.
Q: And then you gave it to Paula?
A: Yes.
Q: And did you tell her you had given it to Nicole?
A: No.
MR. BAKER: He's not stupid. Come on.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: And to this day you have not. Right?
A: Yes, that's right.
Q: Now, did you ever make an arrangement with Nicole that she was not to date anybody until you went out of town in August?
A: No.
Q: Have you read that somewhere, that such an arrangement was made?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Have you ever heard that?
A: No.
Q: Did you tell anybody that--Withdrawn. Did you tell Nicole that if she didn't lay off of other men until you left town in August to go back to New York, that you would kill her?
A: No.
Q: Did you tell that to Faye Resnick?
A: No.
Q: Or anyone else?
A: No.
Q: Didn't you have a pretty--Withdrawn. Didn't you have a heated argument with Nicole about your desire to get her back during this time frame?
A: No.
MR. BAKER: I don't know what time frame we're talking about. Could you-
MR. PETROCELLI: 30 days before her death.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: No?
A: No.
Q: And isn't it true that she told you that she didn't want to have anything to do with you once and for all, and she wanted the relationship to end?
A: No.
Q: Isn't it true that she ended it.
A: No.
Q: Isn't it true that she told you that she didn't--she was finally over you for good?
A: No.
Q: Did she tell you just the opposite?
A: No.
Q: Did she agree with you that the relationship was over?
A: Well, she thought--she prefaced it with, "Well, maybe we just got back too soon."
Q: But she accepted the end of the relationship those last 30 days?
A: Yes.
Q: And she was not making any effort to resume a relationship with you? Is that true?
A: That's hard to tell.
Q: So far as you knew.
A: Well, I don't know. I didn't--I felt that maybe she was, but--
Q: What did she do to make you feel that way?
A: She kept coming to my house. She kept getting involved in my house and--
Q: What does that mean, "getting involved in your house?
A: Oh, she'd come over--
Q: Did she have a key?
A: I--she obviously did, yes. And she would--you know, like on the 22nd she came over. I was watching the basketball game, and 3- or 400 people were at my house for a preschool thing. She came in while I was watching the basketball game and laid on my lap, and then she went up and laid in my bed.
Q: Treated it like her home?
A: Yeah. And then she got into something with my housekeeper. She kept getting involved with my house help and--
Q: Gigi this time?
A: Gigi this time.
Q: What happened?
A: I don't know. Gigi came to me and told me at some point during this week that she was--Gigi was upset and wanted to know what to do, that Nicole was upset with her.
Q: Did you tell Judy Brown during this time period that you couldn't live without Nicole?
A: No.
Q: Did you tell anybody that--
A: No.
Q: --during this time period?
A: No.
Q: Did you tell anybody during this time period that if you can't have her, no one can?
A: No.
Q: Or words to that effect?
A: No.
Q: Do you know how much Nicole had saved in her savings accounts around the middle of May of 1994?
A: No. I hope she had about 7O or 80,000, but other than that, I don't know.
Q: How much was she getting from you on a monthly basis.
A: She? For what?
Q: Spousal support.
A: None.
Q: Child support?
A: About $10,000.
Q: Did she have any other income?
A: I don't know.
Q: Didn't you send her a letter written by your lawyer but signed by you telling her that she could get in trouble with the IRS and have to pay capital gains taxes?
A: I don't think that's what the letter said.
Q: To that effect, though?
A: I don't know about that. I just didn't want her to use my address anymore because--it was more a letter to protect me, and also to keep her from coming over hassling my housekeeper.
Q: You wanted her to remove on her tax returns your Rockingham address as her residence. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And you knew that in doing so, that there was a possibility that capital gains taxes could be triggered. Right?
A: I didn't want her to lose the house for my kids. That's why I insisted that she put that money into an account when she first came to me with the scheme.
Q: What scheme?
A: The scheme to not pay the taxes on the sale of her San Francisco condo.
Q: What did she say to you?
A: Actually, Michelle told me first. That Nicole told her--I was in New York--that the mail was coming to her house, and that if she got any calls, just to say she wasn't there. I called Nicole--Michelle asked me what did that mean. I called Nicole and I asked her, and she just started telling me all these things that--how much taxes she was going to have to pay on the sale of her San Francisco condo; that if she used it as a rental property, she wouldn't have to pay the taxes; and since she thought we were going to end up back together anyway, why should she pay those taxes. I told her what I've always told l everybody: "The government is your partner. Just pay your taxes, Nicole. She said, "Well, why? You know, we're gonna live together, and it's about-- and she didn't say how much it was. And I said--after we spoke about it for a while, I said, "Well, I'll do it under, one condition: Call your tax man, find out how much money you would have to pay in taxes, put that money in an account, so if we don't make it and you have to pay the taxes, you have the money," and to my knowledge she did that.
Q: When did this conversation occur?
A: Right at the first of the year, right when she was moving into the place.
Q: The place on Bundy?
A: Yes.
Q: "First of the year" meaning January 1994?
A: That's correct.
Q: And she told you she put the money in the account?
A: Yes.
Q: And what was the amount of money that she told you she put in the account?
A: I don't know. I thought she said --she made a reference with $70- or $80,000.
Q: Which was pretty much all the money she had. Right?
A: I don't know. I stayed totally out of her finances, including the sale of her houses, and I didn't even get involved advice-wise.
Q: So when you sent her that letter, you knew that it would have the potential of generating a tax liability of about $90,000 for her. Right?
A: No. I knew it had the potential to make sure that my kids wouldn't get kicked out of that house.
Q: Kicked out of what house?
A: The Bundy house.
Q: What did that have to do with anything?
A: If she paid the taxes, she couldn't lose the house. If she don't pay the taxes and they find out, she can lose the house and I could be liable.
Q: How can she lose the house?
A: Taxes. If they find her and they took the money and she spent it. It's happened many times. I think it was happening to Lou Brown at that time.
Q: And you are taking this position with your ex-wife, and you knew that she was going to basically have to cough up her entire savings account to pay these taxes. Right?
A: I don't know that at all.
MR. BAKER: Don't answer that question. "Cough up her entire savings account"? Come on.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You knew that she was going to have to use all of her savings, just about all of her savings, to pay these taxes. Right?
A: These wasn't her savings. This is money from the sale of a house. I didn't even consider that a savings. A house that I had given her. I didn't consider that a savings. This was money that was the government 's. That 's the way I felt about it. If she was going to try to defraud the government, I didn't want to be a part of it at this time, and I had hoped that she would pay the taxes and have no problems.
Q: Did you offer to pay the taxes for her?
A: No.
Q: Why not?
MR. BAKER: "Why" would be the better--
THE WITNESS: Yes, yes. Why.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Because you loved her.
A: And because we had a divorce settlement, she was paid handsomely in the divorce settlement, so why. I don't go around paying people--I don't pay Paula's taxes. I love Paula. I love Marguerite. I don't pay her taxes.
Q: So you didn't want to pay Nicole's taxes. Right?
A: No. Never even thought about it. Never even entered my mind.
Q: How many times--Why did you write a letter to her?
A: So that my tax man and my--and Skip Taft was actually--at Skip's suggestion, so that in the future if she got into any trouble, that they l couldn't come after me, and I would have a record in my file that would protect me if she didn't pay her taxes.
Q: So you're saying Skip Taft told you that if you sent that letter to Nicole you would be protected?
A: Yes. He told me that, "Write a letter; get a copy of it; we'll send it over, and so you'll have this in your files."
Q: Now, your writing that letter had nothing to do with your feeling angry towards Nicole.
Q: Correct?
A: No. At the time--what motivated it at the time was the fact that Gigi was telling me that Nicole's giving her a hard time, and I was trying to distance myself from Nicole. I had done the previous year; and If her mail wasn't coming to my house, that would give her less reasons to come over, and just whatever was going on in her life. I just didn't t want to be involved in that portion of her life that didn't concern the kids.
Q: My question is whether you wrote the letter because you were angry at her.
A: No.
Q: And did you write the letter because you had just broken up with her?
A: No.
Q: And she was rejecting you.
A: No.
Q: Didn't you write some early drafts of that letter that were a little vengeful in tone?
A: No.
Q: And didn't your lawyer advise you to tone it down and not be so vengeful?
A: No.
Q: Who wrote the letter?
A: I think I dictated it, and Cathy must have typed it,
Q: And you signed it Right?
A: Yes. MR. BREWER: Are you going to mark the letter now, Dan?
MR. PETROCELLI: If I can find it.
(Pause in the deposition.)
THE WITNESS: I have to go to the restroom.
MR. LEONARD: Okay.
THE WITNESS: Okay. I'll be real quick.
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 4:29.
(Recess)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record now, and the time is approximately 4:34.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: I am going to mark as Exhibit 51 a two-page document dated 5-26-94 from Taft to Simpson attaching a draft of a letter to Nicole; and as Exhibit 52, a signed letter from Mr. Simpson to Nicole dated June 6, 1994; and as Exhibit 53, an unsigned letter from Mr. Simpson to Nicole dated June 8, 1994.
(Plaintiffs Exhibits 51 through 53 were marked for identification by the reporter and are attached hereto.)
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Now focusing on Exhibit 51, do you see that, Mr. Simpson, that document?
MR. BAKER: Just answer that yes or no.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: It's a two-page document there. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And Mr. Taft had prepared the initial draft of the letter to Nicole. Right?
MR. BAKER: You don't answer that. We are not going to answer anything relative to that. That's protected by the attorney-client privilege.
MR. PETROCELLI: What is?
MR. BAKER: Document 51 and any communications relative to it.
MR. PETROCELLI: Well, this document was a matter of public record, I believe, or was obtained through subpoenas. We certainly didn't have it.
MR. BAKER: I don't know. I know that it didn't make it into the criminal trial; I'm pretty sure of that, on the same basis that I'm asserting now.
MR. PETROCELLI: Do you know where this document came from, Mr. Baker?
MR. BAKER: I do not know where that document came from.
MR. PETROCELLI: This document was made--this n document was one of the items on the property report, and this was one of the documents that all the lawyers, including your office, inspected at the SID offices and was turned over pursuant to the inspection and the court's order.
MR. BAKER: Okay. That does not waive the privilege in my opinion, and I am going to assert the privilege. If this was taken pursuant to a search warrant, this is certainly not a waiver of any privilege.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did you receive this letter?
A: I don't recall, but I'm sure I must have received a copy of it.
Q: You see where it says, "Made changes you wanted but did not get revengeful. Okay to" something "mail." Do you see that?
MR. BAKER: Don't answer anymore questions relative to this document.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Signed "Skip." You are not going to answer any questions about this?
MR. BAKER: He is not going to answer any questions about this.
Q: You had prepared an earlier draft that Mr. Taft revised. Correct?
MR. BAKER: Don't answer that question.
MR. PETROCELLI: Well, Mr. Baker, that's not privileged, that he had prepared, "he" being Mr. Simpson.
MR. BAKER: You look over at David's monitor and see what your entire question is.
MR. PETROCELLI: Well, the fact that Mr. Taft would revise it? Let me ask you this: Are you going to instruct him on that question?
MR. BAKER: Yes.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You had prepared an earlier draft than this one dated May 31. Correct?
A: I had dictated a letter--
MR. BAKER: Wait a minute. Don't-- we are not going to talk about the May 31 draft, OJ. That's period, end of story.
MR. PETROCELLI: Mr. Baker, we are now talking about something that he dictated, a draft letter to Nicole. That's what he is telling me. And he had said this already. I know you are not going to let me talk about what he and Taft said to one another or wrote to one another, although I disagree. We can argue about that later.
MR. BAKER: Sure.
MR. PETROCELLI: I just want to find out what he did first.
MR. BAKER: Relative to what? Hold on just a second.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: This process began with your dictating a letter to Nicole. Correct?
A: No. To Cathy Randa.
Q: You dictated a letter--Oh, for Cathy to type. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: But addressed to Nicole. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And Cathy typed it. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And did you see it after she typed It?
A: I think she may have faxed it to me.
Q: Where were you when she faxed it?
A: I would have -- I don't know where I was when she faxed it, but I saw it in my home.
Q: When did you see it?
A: I don't know.
Q: When did you dictate it?
A: Probably the last week of May.
Q: When is the last time you've seen that draft?
A: What do you mean?
Q: The draft that you dictated to-- that Cathy typed and that was faxed to you in your home.
A: Probably the last week of May.
Q: You haven't seen it since?
A: No.
Q: Did you tell Randa to destroy it?
A: No. I told her to make some changes.
Q: What did you tell her to change?
A: Just some things. I thought it was too long and too wordy.
Q: How long was the first letter?
A: A full page.
Q: A full page or four pages?
A: A full page.
Q: Full page. What did that letter contain or say in substance that this final--that this May 31 draft does not say?
A: I don't know. I thought it sounded somewhat harsh. I thought it was a little long.
Q: And you were feeling harsh towards Nicole. Right?
A: No. That's why I had them make the changes.
Q: But you initially dictated words that you felt were too harsh. Right?
A: Pardon me?
Q: You initially dictated words that you felt subsequently were too harsh. Right?
A: No, I don't think so. I think the way Cathy--Cathy, when I give her a thing that I want written, she tends to shorthand it, and then she types it out to see how I like it, and when I saw it, I thought her choice of words in certain places were just a little too harsh.
Q: When you say you dictated to Cathy, was this in person?
A: Yes. I was probably in the office at the time, yes.
Q: And she would sit across from you with a stenographer's pad?
A: I believe so.
Q: And take handwritten notes?
A: Yeah, she'd just take quick notes.
Q: And then she typed it up and faxed it to you?
A: Yeah. I left the office, and it didn't get--the day that I told her, "I need to send a note to Nicole," and I kind of dictated roughly what to say, and I think she didn't get to it for a day or so and then she faxed me a copy. And I thought it was a little too long, basically, and this is what we do with everything that we--every letter I send out, and I think I edited it. And then I gather she edited it and showed it to Skip, and Skip called me, and I can't talk about what Skip and I talked about.
Q: What was some of the material that Cathy--Withdrawn. Are you saying that the material that you edited out of the letter was all material added by Cathy on her own?
A: No, I don't know. I just didn't like the way the letter read. So I didn't want to send--the way the letter read, I didn't like the way it read, so I wanted some changes in it.
Q: What was harsh about the letter?
A: I don't know. Just in tone I thought it was harsh.
Q: What did it say?
A: I don't recall.
Q: What's your best recollection?
A: I have none. My best recollection is what I see in this letter. That's the way I was--
Q: What did you think was revengeful about that letter?
A: I thought it was harsh.
Q: This is 8-A. This is your--this is Exhibit 8-A, the calendar that Cathy maintained for you. Looking at that calendar, can you tell us your best recollection of when you dictated the letter to Cathy?
MR. BAKER: So it's clear, that's a calendar that she maintained for OJ. and perhaps herself, is the testimony.
MR. PETROCELLI: Correct.
THE WITNESS: I would say somewhere from the 31st--from the 31st --somewhere around the 31st, 2nd --it was the lst, 2nd or 3rd of June also. So that week of the 31st.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: That you dictated the initial draft?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: That can't be, because the Taft letter is dated May 26.
A: Well, maybe that's the last week of May then.
Q: Well, looking--just looking at the date of the Taft letter back to you, which is May 26, that would indicate to you that your letter was dictated earlier. Right.
A: Well, as I said, the last week of May, May 26th, I guess from my recollection would have been the last week of May.
Q: Well, just now you said May 30 and into June, and I am trying to get a better date than that. So we know it was before May 26, correct, that you dictated letter to Cathy?
A: It may even have been before this then, (Indicating).
Q: That's what I'm saying.
A: Yeah, because--
Q: That's what I'm saying.
A: I felt it was the last week of May. As I told you when you first asked me the question, I thought it was the last week of May.
Q: I am just trying to get your best recollection of when this initial draft that you dictated was created. You have the May 26 letter--
A: Yeah.
Q: --from Taft back to you, and you have the calendar in front of you.
A: Yeah.
Q: You see the 26th of May is Thursday.
A: Yes.
Q: What is your best recollection or when you initially dictated the letter?
A: Right in there, right in this week somewhere (Indicating).
Q: From the 23rd, 24th or 25th?
A: Yes. It wasn't until after I got back from--it was this weekend, I think, that Nicole gave I Gigi the hard time.
Q: 22nd and 23rd?
A: 21st and 22nd. I think that's the weekend she gave Gigi the hard time. So it would have been this week that I would have dictated the letter (Indicating).
Q: You are pointing to the week of May 23.
A: Yeah. Yeah.
Q: Can you remember anything in that letter that you edited out?
A: Not particularly. I just thought it was long, and I didn't like the way it sounded. To me it sounded sorta harsh.
Q: Can you remember anything that sounded harsh to you that you edited out?
A: Pardon me?
Q: Can you tell me any of the sentences or the tone--
A: No, I can't remember.
Q: Or the words that you edited out?
A: No, I can't remember. But the way it ended up going to her is exactly the way I wanted it.
Q: After Taft reviewed the letter, did you get a chance to see it before you signed it?
A: I believe so.
MR. PETROCELLI: You are not going to let me ask him about Exhibit 51, Mr. Baker?
MR. BAKER: That's correct.
MR. PETROCELLI: We don't have to make any further record on that?
MR. BAKER: I don't think so.
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay.
Q: After you got the letter from Taft, did you read it?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: Did you make any further changes to it?
A: I might have.
Q: You will notice that the version from Taft sent to you is different from the one you signed. The one you signed, by the way, is Exhibit 52. Is that correct?
A: Yes. : You see your signature there?
A: Yes.
Q: And the one that Taft sent you dated May 31 is one paragraph, whereas the final version is three paragraphs. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you add those other two paragraphs?
MR. BAKER: Well--
THE WITNESS: I don't know.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Excuse me? You don't know?
MR. BAKER: Unless you added them without any advice from any lawyer. You can answer that question.
THE WITNESS: Can I read it?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Yeah. What I want to know is whether you dictated in effect the last two paragraphs of the final version, which is Exhibit 52. (Witness reviews document.)
A: Uh-huh.
Q: And the question was whether you dictated the last two paragraphs.
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: Now, in this letter you didn't say anything about Gigi, did you?
A: No.
Q: Although, as you just testified, the Gigi incident had already occurred. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, let me ask you: This letter also, this Exhibit 52 that you signed and addressed to Nicole, was messengered to her. Do you see that.
A: Yes.
Q: It says "via Messenger."
A: Yes.
Q: Did she call you after she got this?
A: No. Q: Did she talk to you at all about it? A: No.
Q: Never? A: Never.
Q: Is that correct, that she never talked to you?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you ever hear from anyone else about Nicole's receipt of this letter and reaction to it?
A: No.
Q: So when you sent this letter, that was the last that you had to do with this whole subject matter. Right?
A: That's correct.
Q: Do you know whether she did what you requested in the letter?
A: What do you mean?
Q: Did she change her--the address of her primary residence? Do you know?
A: I believe that her mail during that period of time stopped coming to my house, yes.
Q: This is a very serious sounding letter.
MR. BAKER: Don't answer that.
Q: Do you agree with that?
MR. BAKER: Don't answer that. Your characterization doesn't make it so.
MR. PETROCELLI: I am asking if he agrees with it. I didn't say it had to be so. He could say, "No, it's not. It's a frivolous tone."
MR. BAKER: It has a sense of levity to it. Anything that discusses the IRS always has some levity to it.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You wrote this letter because you wanted to frighten Nicole, didn't you?
A: No.
Q: You were upset with her and you were retaliating against her, and that was your purpose in writing this. Right?
A: No.
Q: And you knew that she didn't want to pay taxes, and you knew this would frighten her. Correct?
A: No.
Q: Threatening IRS action--
MR. BAKER: Don't hold that in front of the video--
MR. PETROCELLI: I didn't realize that I was going in front of the video. Was that in front of the video?
MR. BAKER: The answer was yes.
MR. PETROCELLI: Thank you for pointing that out, Mr. Baker.
Q: You may answer.
THE WITNESS: What's his last question?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Do you think it was threatening?
A: I don't think it's threatening at all.
Q: How many times had you written Nicole in 1994 a letter that you had messengered to her house?
A: Many times.
Q: What were the subject matters of those letters?
A: My schedule, the kids, some -- whatever might have been happening at the time.
Q: Letters that you had signed. Addressed to her, Nicole Brown Simpson?
MR. BAKER: Wait a minute--
Q: Well, I want to make sure were not talking about different things here. I am talking about a letter like this letter, where it's addressed to Nicole Brown Simpson by OJ. Simpson. sort of an official-sounding letter.
MR. BAKER: Well, don't answer that.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did you ever write any letter like that?
MR. BAKER: Don't answer the question.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: What were the letters you wrote to Nicole in 1994?
A: Well, in '93 and '4--I'm trying to focus on '4.
Q: Yeah, on '4.
A: Probably more to do with my scheduling and stuff. My scheduling of things.
Q: What kind of letters would you write about your scheduling?
A: That if she was planning anything, this is my schedule. Cathy would send those letters. Or whatever was going on with the kids or something that I may have been planning to do or not planning to do, Cathy would dictate it and send it to Nicole.
Q: The subject matter of those letters were children and family matters. Right?
A: Scheduling, children, family matters, yes.
Q: How many business letters did you write Nicole in the year 1994?
A: This is--I don't consider this a business letter.
Q: You don't?
A: No.
Q: How many letters about the subject of money did you send Nicole in 1 994?
A: Maybe one or two.
Q: What other ones do you remember?
A: Pertaining to this in the beginning of the year when she was doing all of these things with her house and stuff.
Q: What did you write to her?
A: Just pertaining to this, you know. I gave her my advice.
Q: In writing?
A: Once or twice in writing, yes.
Q: Typed up?
A: Cathy would have typed it up, sure.
Q: Did you have your lawyer review it?
A: No.
Q: How many letters did you send to Nicole in 1994 that your lawyer reviewed?
A: In '94, I can't recall.
Q: Your lawyer reviewed the letter of June 6. Right?
A: Yes. This letter was mainly intended for the IRS if they ever came after me.
Q: So to the best of your knowledge, the letter of June 6, Exhibit 52, is the only letter you sent Nicole in 1994 that your lawyer reviewed. Correct?
A: To the best of my knowledge, yes.
Q: Do you still have copies of those other letters that you said you sent, the scheduling letters, family letters?
A: I never kept copies of any of them
Q: Cathy would have them?
A: --except this.
MR. BAKER: Let him finish, please.
MR. PETROCELLI: Sorry, Mr. Baker.
MR. BAKER: Go ahead, OJ.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Now let me show you--Would Cathy have copies of those letters?
A: I don't know.
Q: Did she destroy them?
A: This one she should have kept a copy of.
Q: Did she destroy any letters?
A: Oh, I don't know.
Q: Exhibit 53, do you see that?
A: Yes.
Q: And you have a copy right there. Mr. Simpson.
A: Yes.
MR. KELLY: So what is 53?
MR. BAKER: June 8.
MR. PETROCELLI: June 8 from OJ. Simpson to 15 Nicole Brown Simpson.
Q: You dictated this letter to Cathy?
A: Yes.
Q: What was the purpose of writing this letter?
A: To basically have Nicole take some heat off Gigi.
Q: What had Nicole done to Gigi on May 21 and 22 that prompted this letter?
A: She came over and yelled at her for not being at my home on that weekend, at least that Saturday.
Q: Have you ever written a letter like this one to Nicole before?
A: Yes.
Q: Where you admonished her not to do certain things?
A: Yes.
Q: How many times?
A: Two or three times.
Q: In 1994?
A: No.
Q: When was the last time before 1 994?
A: I would believe probably in 1993.
Q: What was the subject matter of the last letter that you remember in 1993?
A: I don't recall.
Q: During this time frame, at least from June 6 to June 8 or thereabouts, were you having a conflict in your relationship with Nicole?
A: I was avoiding Nicole, but these letters were dictated long before this.
Q: When were they dictated?
A: As I told you, that week in May.
Q: Why did they go out weeks later?
A: Because Cathy evidently was busy or not in the office or--and I wasn't around. I was in and out of town.
Q: Why did--
A: They didn't go out weeks later, incidentally. I'm sorry.
Q: Why is that?
A: Because I told them not to send this one.
Q: You told who not to send what letter?
A: Cathy not to send the June 8th letter,
Q: You never sent it?
A: Never sent it.
Q: You dictated it when?
A: Sometime in that week in May.
Q: And Cathy didn't--Cathy, when she takes dictation from you, she takes it in hand, you said. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Then she goes to her typewriter and types it. Right?
A: Sometimes, yes. It depends on what time of the day I told her.
Q: Did Cathy type this letter on June 8 to the best of your knowledge?
A: I would guess so, if that's what it says.
Q: When did you tell Cathy--
A: That's when I got it.
Q: Excuse me?
A: That's when I saw it.
Q: When Cathy got around to typing the letter and showed it to you, you said "Don't send it." Right?
A: Yes.
Q: But you did send the letter of June 6 that you signed. Right?
A: I hoped it would suffice.
Q: Exhibit 52. Right?
A: That's correct.
Q: Do these letters refresh your memory, Mr. Simpson, that in June of 1994 you were upset and angry with Nicole?
A: No.
Q: Angry toward her?
A: I wasn't angry towards her.
Q: Trying to separate yourself from her?
A: I was trying to keep some distance from her, yes.
Q: And was she resisting that?
A: She came by my house a few times. So I wouldn't call it really resisting, but, you know, it wasn't easy staying away from her.
Q: What did you say in that first letter that Skip Taft thought was vengeful?
A: I don't think I said anything that he thought was vengeful.
Q: Why did he say that?
MR. BAKER: Well, don't answer that question.
MR. PETROCELLI: Wait a second.
Q: You wrote something in that letter which your lawyer said sounded vengeful. Now, without telling me what you and your lawyer talked about, because your lawyer here won't let me, tell me what you said in that letter that was vengeful.
MR. BAKER: Don't--
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
You may answer.
MR. BAKER: Yeah, wait. Your interpretation of this is totally different than mine.
MR. PETROCELLI: Mr. Baker--
MR. BAKER: I am going to instruct him not to answer--
MR. PETROCELLI: The simple answer is that he can answer the question, and you don't need Mr. Baker's able assistance--
MR. BAKER: I need all the help I can get. I'm not that smart, and I need all the help I can get, but you're making the assumption here that he took out changes that were somehow vengeful, and that doesn't say that, even though you want to get into this document.
MR. PETROCELLI: Mr. Baker, something prompted Mr. Taft to use the word "revengeful" of every single word in the English language. Now, I want to know what Mr. Simpson wrote or said--wrote in his early l draft that prompted that word.
MR. BAKER: You know, your interpretation is totally different, and you're right into the attorney-client privilege in my opinion, and I am not going to let him answer it. It's that simple.
MR. PETROCELLI: You know, a judge once told me that you were a tough hombre. Now I know why.
MR. BAKER: I'm not tough. I have been so nice--you know, because it's you, I have been so nice, it's unbelievable. I'm usually relatively harsh. Aren't I, Michael? And I've been an absolute modicum of decorum in this deposition.
MR. BREWER: I'm glad it's being preserved on videotape, because no one would ever believe it.
MR. BAKER: I am, too. Thank you very much. How far are we going to go today? Just because I'm tired.
MR. PETROCELLI: Well, Mr. Baker, I will ask a few more questions and we will adjourn, and we can resume at 9:30.
MR. BAKER: Fine, anything you want. I am just asking a question, but that's fine. I appreciate that.
MR. PETROCELLI: I don't want you to be tired. I want you to be on your toes.
MR. BAKER: That's why I love this business. I really do love the interchange with lawyers.
MR. PETROCELLI: Plus you told me earlier today that I'm much better in the morning.
MR. BAKER: I'm not going to give away my secrets anymore.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Mr. Simpson, you can't remember anything you initially wrote that was revengeful, in your opinion?
A: No. I know I wouldn't want to be revengeful, and I know I wouldn't want a letter to go to her revengeful, and I think the letter that went to her reflects exactly the way I felt, and obviously the changes or whatever that were done to it reflected exactly what I wanted, which this covering letter mentions.
Q: Did you talk to Judy Brown during the last 30 days of--Withdrawn. I want to focus on the period when you ended the relationship with Nicole--
A: Uh-huh.
Q: --I guess it was around May 9, and when Nicole died on June 12.
A: Uh-huh.
Q: Did you talk to Judy Brown during that time period about Nicole?
A: Starting when?
Q: That last 30 days.
A: Yes, I believe so.
Q: When did you last talk to Judy about Nicole?
A: I'm guessing. I would say right when we split up.
Q: To tell her that you were splitting up?
A: No. To tell her about all my concerns about Nicole.
Q: What did you tell Judy?
A: Just the way she had been acting. I tried not to tell her about some other things that had happened, like the January incident and stuff, her drinking, the people she was hanging around with, because I tried in the year that we were together not to really get into that, but I had time and time again tried to alert Lou and Judy that when we all were together, to watch how much she drinks, and essentially that was the conversation, and the fact that I, you know--they were family to me, and she was Nicole's mother. Whenever I was concerned about Nicole, I'd call her mother.
Q: After than that conversation, did you have any other conversations with Judy?
A: I don't recall having any other conversations with Judy, no. We may have said "hi" or something at some point in time.
Q: That was about it?
A: That was about it.
Q: After you told her about the reasons for your splitting up. Right?
A: More my concerns. It was just more my concerns. We didn't talk much about having split up. I kinda wanted Nicole to go to therapy, and I talked about the therapy she had gone to before and how it appeared to have had a positive effect and how I tried to encourage her to do it again. and I would kind of stick by her through that.
Q: Did you say to anybody, including Judy Brown, during this time period that, "If I find Nicole with another man, and I know she's seen with other men, I'll kill her"?
A: No.
Q: "If I find her with another man, she'd better stay monogamous to me until August when I leave and keep up the image"?
A: No.
Q: Did you have any kind of arrangement with Nicole about the two of you until August? Does that ring a bell?
A: I told her at one point at this time that when I told her I couldn't do this anymore, that if she went to therapy, I'd stay with it until I go back to New York. So we can try it through the summer until I go to New York, if she goes to therapy.
Q: You mean when you decided to end the relationship, you left this opening?
A: Yes.
Q: You said, "If you go to therapy, I'll keep an open mind"?
A: No. I said--when I told her that I couldn't do it anymore, I said but if she would go to therapy, I would stay in the relationship until I go back to Buffalo--until I go back to New York.
Q: What did she say?
A: She didn't want to go to therapy. She didn't think it helped.
Q: Then it was agreed upon and decided that that was the end. Right?
A: I told her that was my condition: If she don't go to therapy, I wasn't going to do it anymore.
Q: And that was it.
A: That was it.
Q: When you met Paula at the airport, did you say you surprised her?
A: Yeah.
Q: She didn't know you were coming in?
A: Yeah. Well, I don't think she knew anything. You know, part of me thinks Cathy may have told her, but she acted surprised, and I told Cathy--
Q: How did you know whether she might not have another man with her?
A: Cathy told me that, as I told you already. Cathy told me that.
Q: What did Cathy tell you?
A: That she wasn't dating anyone.
Q: But when you went to the airport to see Paula, you did not know for a fact whether she might be picked up by another man. Right?
A: Yeah. No. I knew then that a limo was supposed to pick her up. I just didn't know if she was with somebody.
Q: So you waited and saw that she wasn't?
A: Yes.
Q: How did you see that?
A: With my two eyes.
Q: When she came off the plane?
A: Yeah. She walked alone, and that's when I snuck up behind her.
Q: Where?
A: In the airport, in the terminal.
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay, we will resume tomorrow.
MR. BAKER: All right. Thank you, sir.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This concludes the deposition of Orenthal James Simpson, Volume IV: The number of video tapes used was three. We are going off the record, and the time is approximately 5:03.
(ENDING TIME: 5:03 P.M.)
I DECLARE UNDER PENALTY OF PERJURY THAT THE FOREGOING IS TRUE AND CORRECT'. SUBSCRIBED AT CALIFORNIA, THIS 25 DAY OF 1996 ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON