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REPORTER'S DAILY TRANSCRIPT SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA SHARON RUFO, ET AL., N/A, PLAINTIFFS, SANTA MONICA, CALIFORNIA DEPARTMENT NO. WEQ. (REGINA D. CHAVEZ, OFFICIAL REPORTER) THE CLERK: Good morning, Judge. THE COURT: Good morning, Erin. (Jurors resume their respective seats.) THE COURT: Morning. JURORS: Good morning. THE COURT: Okay. Plaintiff may commence the presentation of their MR. PETROCELLI: Thank you, Your Honor. THE COURT: Go ahead. MR. PETROCELLI: Exhibits -- Exhibit 18 is a map of the Bundy area; (The instruments herein described were received in evidence as (The instruments herein described were received in evidence as MR. PETROCELLI: Call Karen Crawford, Your Honor. THE CLERK: You do solemnly swear that the testimony you may give in THE WITNESS: I do. THE CLERK: Thank you. Please be seated. THE WITNESS: Karen Crawford: K-A-R-E-N, C-R-A-W-F-O-R-D. DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q. Thank you, Your Honor. Good morning. A. Hi. Q. You used to work at Mezzaluna? A. I did. Q. Did you work there on June 12, 1994? A. Yes, I did. Q. What was your position there at the time? A. I was bartender and I was the Sunday manager. Q. Did Ron Goldman work there? A. He did. Q. And did he work there on June 12, 1994? A. Yes, he did. Q. What day was that? A. That was a Sunday. Q. And what was Ron's job that evening? A. Ron was a waiter. Q. Okay. And were there other people working there, as well? A. There were, yes. Q. Including Stewart Tanner? A. Stewart was bartending. Q. Now, at some point -- well, let me ask you this first: You A. Yes. Q. Can you see the photograph there? A. Yes. Q. Looking at Exhibit 19, that is a picture of Mr. Goldman? A. Yes, it is. Q. Okay. Did you recognize, as of June 12, 1994, Nicole Brown Simpson? A. Yes. Q. And looking at Exhibit 21, is that a picture of her? A. That's her. Q. Now, had Nicole come into the restaurant from time to time? A. Yeah, she did. Q. Okay. Did she come in on the evening of June 12? A. Yes. Q. And did she come in with a party of people? A. She came in with several adults and several children. Q. Okay. About how big was the party? A. I'd say 10 or 11. Q. And by the way, did Ron wait on the Brown party that night? A. No, he didn't. Q. You recognize the defendant, Mr. Simpson? A. Yes, I do. Q. Do you see him in the courtroom here? A. Yes. Q. Was he with the Brown party that evening -- A. No. Q. -- at Mezzaluna? A. He wasn't. Q. Let me ask you to give us a little geography first. (indicating to map of Bundy area). A. Should I just get up? MR. PETROCELLI: Yeah. May she approach, Your Honor? THE COURT: Yes. A. Mezzaluna, right here at this corner of San Vicente and Gorham. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Right around here? A. Yes. Q. And where did Ron Goldman live, if you know? A. He lived on Gorham Avenue between Mezzaluna and the VA Hospital. Q. Would that be on this side? A. Yes. Q. So here's Mezzaluna, and Mr. Goldman lived on Gorham, in this area, A. Yeah. Q. Little farther? A. Somewhere on that street, yeah. Q. Did you know if he he drove or walked to work? A. He walked. Q. You understood he lived a short distance from the restaurant? A. Yes. Q. Okay. That evening, now, do you recall what time Nicole's party A. What time they left? Q. Yeah. A. They left between 8:30 and 9:00. Q. And that's the last time you saw Nicole Brown Simpson, when she A. Yes. Q. Okay. And sometime after Nicole left, did Ron Goldman punch out? A. Yeah, he did. Q. Do you know what time Ron Goldman punched out? A. He punched out about 9:30. Q. After Ron Goldman punched out, did he leave the restaurant right A. No, he stayed for a while. Q. Do you know what he did? A. He got something to drink and he sat down with a couple of other Q. Okay. Did you then get a phone call? A. Yes. Q. And who called you?
A. It was a woman who said she had lost her glasses. When she Q. And who do you now understand that person to have been? A. It was Judith Brown. Q. Nicole's mother? A. Nicole's mother. Q. About what time did you get that phone call from Judy Brown? A. It was about 9:30, 9:35. MR. PETROCELLI: Can you focus that a little bit better? JUROR: Yeah. MR. LEONARD: Stipulate that it's 9:37. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Let me just show you Exhibit 26. And you will A. Yes. Q. Is that the number of Mezzaluna? A. Yes, it is. Q. So, Judy Brown called you at 9:37 p.m, right? A. Yes. Q. And you spoke for about two minutes, right? A. Yes. Q. And what did she tell you? A. She had told me that she had lost some glasses. She told me she had Q. After you found the glasses outside, what did you then do? A. I went back inside and let her know that I had found her glasses. Q. And what did she then say? A. Well, I had asked her when she would be picking them up. And she Q. And that was the end of the call? A. Yes. Q. Let me show you an envelope and some glasses, please. A photo of (The instrument herein described was marked for identification as Q. Putting the envelope and glasses in front of you, do you recognize A. Yes. Q. Are those the glasses that you picked up at the curb, outside of A. Yeah. Q. And those are the glasses that you put in the envelope? A. Yes. Q. And is that the envelope that you put the glasses in? A. Yes. Q. And is that your handwriting? A. That's my handwriting. Q. What does it say? A. It says "Prescription glasses. Nicole Simpson will pick up Monday." Q. Okay. A. I put it behind the bar in our lost-and-found area. Q. What happened next? A. I got another phone call, and it was Nicole. She had -- she Q. And then did Ron take the call? A. Yes, he did. Q. When Ron took the call, where did he come from? A. I believe he was sitting at the table by the front door. Q. Talking to some other people? A. Yes. Q. Did you see Ron speak on the phone to Nicole? A. I saw him speak, yes. Q. Okay. You could tell he was speaking? A. Yes. Q. Could you overhear the conversation? A. No, I couldn't hear what he was saying. Q. And after, you saw Ron hang up the phone? A. Oh, yes, I did. Q. And after he hung up the phone, what did you then see Ron do? A. He hung around for a couple of minutes talking to people, and then Q. So he left the phone near you, went and talked to some folks again, A. Yes. Q. And then asked for the glasses? A. Yeah. He told me he would drop them off -- he was going to drop Q. And did he tell you what his plans were? A. He said he was going to drop them off at her house on his way to Q. Did he tell you why he was going to Baja Cantina? A. Yeah. He was meeting a couple guys from work at Baja after work. Q. What happened next, after Ron said -- You gave Ron the glasses? A. I did. Q. And then what happened? A. He said good-bye to some people, and then he left. Q. What time was it, Ms. Crawford, when Ron left? A. He left at ten minutes to 10:00. Q. And how do you know that? A. Well, my friend was at Mezzaluna, and he wanted to rent a video. Q. Okay. So you saw Ron leave the restaurant at ten to 10:00? A. Yeah. Q. And you saw him go out the door? A. I saw him go out the door. Q. Toward which street? A. He left on the side doors that exit out to Gorham. Q. And that's where he lived, right, on Gorham? A. He lived on Gorham, yeah. Q. What was Ron wearing when he left? A. He had on his dark pants and white shirt. He had taken off some of Q. The dark pants and white shirt are part of the waiter's uniform A. Yes. Q. Okay. And when Ron left the restaurant at ten to 10:00 in his A. Yeah, that's the last time. MR. PETROCELLI: Thank you very much. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. LEONARD: Q. Good morning. A. Hi. Q. My name is Dan Leonard. I represent O.J. Simpson. You were asked MR. LEONARD: May I approach, Your Honor? THE COURT: Yes. BY MR. LEONARD: Q. You were asked about these glasses by Mr. Petrocelli. Is there A. When I found them, they were in fine shape. Nothing -- they hadn't Q. Okay. If you examine this bag, you'll see that one of the lenses is A. Yes. Q. Okay. When you picked them up, both lenses were there? A. Yes, both were there. Q. And when you gave them to Mr. Goldman both lenses were there? A. Yes. Q. Now, you said that you understood that Mr. Goldman walked to and A. Normally, yes. Q. He didn't own a car? A. Not that I knew of, no. Q. And he didn't have a driver's license? A. Oh, I don't know about that. Q. You were interviewed how many times by the police? Do you remember? A. I don't remember. I know once, for sure. Maybe two times. I can't Q. Do you remember getting a phone call from a police officer on the A. On the 13th? Q. Which would have been Monday, the day after the murders. Do you A. Well, I initially called first because what I had seen on TV. And Q. And then, a couple days later, you were interviewed by a couple of A. Yes. Q. Detective Tippin, a Detective -- A. Yeah. Q. -- Detective Carr? A. Yes. Q. You saw Ron on the phone, talking to Nicole? A. Yes. Q. Can you describe everything that you saw him do? A. I don't think I can do that. Q. Was he just holding the phone and talking to her? A. No, I didn't. Q. Okay. Thank you. THE COURT: Anything further? MR. PETROCELLI: No. THE COURT: Thank you. You're excused. (Witness excused.) MR. PETROCELLI: Your Honor, for the next witness -- it will be Stewart (The instruments herein described were marked for identification as (The instruments herein described were received in evidence as MR. PETROCELLI: We call Stewart Tanner. THE CLERK: You do solemnly swear that the testimony you may give in THE WITNESS: I do. THE CLERK: Please be seated, sir. THE WITNESS: Stewart Tanner, S-T-E-W-A-R-T, T-A-N-N-E-R. Q. Good morning, Mr. Tanner. A. Morning. Q. You worked at Mezzaluna on June 12, 1994? A. Yes, I did. Q. And you were a bartender that evening? A. Correct. Q. On other evenings, did you do other things there, as well? A. I was a bartender or waiter. Q. Ron Goldman was on duty that night? A. Yes, sir. Q. And you saw him there at the restaurant? A. Yes. Q. Did you also see Nicole Brown Simpson there that evening? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you remember what she was wearing? A. A black jacket and a black dress. Q. Okay. She was in a party of a number of people; is that right? A. Yes, sir. Q. Now, did you make plans with Mr. Goldman that evening to do A. Yes, sir. We were supposed to go out. Q. Where were you supposed to go? A. We were going to go to a restaurant and bar in Marina Del Rey. Q. Who else was going to go besides Ron and you? A. Another waiter that worked there, that didn't work there that Q. Was it definite that you were going to go? A. Not, not really. I mean, you know, they said, hey, why don't we, Q. Did Ron talk to you before he left the restaurant? A. Yes, sir. Q. And what did he tell you? A. You call me; I'll call you, you know, because I was getting off, Q. Were you planning to drive in one car or separately? A. Separately. Q. Okay. And Ron was going to meet Mr. Valente at -- A. Yeah. Q. -- At the Baja? A. All three of us were going to meet up there, possibly separate Q. So you, Ron, and John Valente were going to drive there separately A. Right. Q. Okay. Did Ron tell you that he had a date with Nicole Brown Simpson MR. LEONARD: Objection. Calls for hearsay. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Did Ron indicate anything to you about his MR. LEONARD: Same objection, Your Honor. THE COURT: You may answer yes or no. THE WITNESS: Can you repeat the question? Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Did Ron tell you that he had any plans to see A. No. MR. LEONARD: Same objection, Your Honor. THE COURT: Same ruling. You can answer yes or no. MR. PETROCELLI: State of mind of the subsequent conduct under 1250, Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) In any event, did you see Ron and Nicole Brown A. Not at all. Q. Okay. Let me show you a picture of what's previously been marked as MR. PETROCELLI: Could you put those on, Steve. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Do you recognize that? (Referring to screen.) A. Yes, sir. MR. PETROCELLI: Can you show the next one. (Monitor is displayed.) Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) And you recognize that? A. Yes, sir. Q. Okay. Now, did Ron Goldman have a pager? A. Yes, sir, he did. Q. Okay. And pagers that we just showed you that have been marked as A. Yes, sir. Q. -- you recognize those as Mr. Goldman's pager? A. Yes, sir. Q. Okay. Did you actually go to Baja Cantina that night? A. No. I got off work later than I thought and was tired, and just Q. What time did you get off of work? A. Sometime after 11:30 I think. Q. The next morning when you got up, did you call Ron or page him on A. Ron and I worked on Mondays and he was never late to work. And I MR. PETROCELLI: Thank you. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. LEONARD: Q. Morning, Mr. Tanner. My name is Dan Leonard. I represent O.J. A. Morning. Q. Did you have a beeper? A. Do I have one? Q. Did you have one then? A. Not at that time, no. Q. You were planning to meet with Mr. Goldman and another gentleman at A. Marina Del Rey. Q. Okay. And what time were you planning to meet? A. There was no specific time. Q. Mr. Goldman didn't have an automobile; is that right? A. I'm sorry? Q. He didn't own a car? A. No, sir. Q. Okay. You were interviewed by the police on a single occasion; is A. I was interviewed, well, Monday, the 13th. Q. Um-hum. A. That would be correct. And in the early evening, one time only, Q. And how long did that interview last? A. Possibly in the neighborhood of 15, 20 minutes. Q. Do you remember now, as you sit here today, everything that the A. No, I couldn't say that. I mean, it was three years ago. MR. LEONARD: If I may approach, Your Honor. THE COURT: Go ahead. MR. LEONARD: This is on page 368. MR. PETROCELLI: Yeah. Q. (BY MR. LEONARD) Let me show you a document and ask you if -- I'd (Witness reviews document.) A. Okay. Q. Does that refresh your memory, sir? A. Yes, sir. Q. Is it fair to say that the police asked you about Ron Goldman's A. Correct. Q. And that's all they asked you about, correct? A. Yeah. I mean, they could have asked me more. I don't know if Q. That's all you remember, right? A. Right. MR. LEONARD: Thank you. THE COURT: Mr. Petrocelli, I'm going to reconsider my ruling on the MR. PETROCELLI: Thank you, Your Honor. Q. Did Mr. Goldman tell you that he was going to see Nicole Brown A. No. Q. To your knowledge, were they dating? MR. LEONARD: Objection. That calls for hearsay, speculation. THE COURT: Overruled. You may answer. THE WITNESS: No, he wasn't dating Nicole at all. MR. PETROCELLI: Thank you. MR. LEONARD: No further questions. THE COURT: Thank you. You're excused. (Witness excused.) MR. PETROCELLI: Our next witness, Your Honor, who is Robert Heidstra, THE CLERK: You do solemnly swear that the testimony you may give in THE WITNESS: I do. THE BAILIFF: Please be seated. THE CLERK: And, sir, would you please state and spell your name for THE WITNESS: Spell my name? THE CLERK: Yes. THE WITNESS: Robert, R-O-B-E-R-T, last name Heidstra, H-E-I-D-S-T-R-A. THE CLERK: Thank you. Q. Morning, Mr. Heidstra. A. Morning. Q. On June 12, 1994, where did you live? A. On Dorothy Street, 11926 Dorothy Street. Q. Mr. Heidstra, we have a map here of the Bundy area that's been A. Dorothy Street -- is Gorham -- Dorothy. Q. Dorothy? A. Dorothy. Q. Right around here? A. Yeah. Q. Okay. MR. PETROCELLI: Let the record reflect on Dorothy, between Bundy and Q. (BY MR. PETRROCELLI) What is this street here? A. Westgate. Q. Westgate. This street that is not listed on the map is Westgate. A. Here's Dorothy here. Q. Up closer to Westgate? A. Yeah, two -- Q. Two houses from Westgate? A. Two buildings. Q. You live in an apartment? A. Yes. Q. How long have you been living there? A. About 20, 22 years. Q. And you still live there now? A. I do. Q. And you live alone? A. Yes. Q. At that time, you lived alone? A. Yes. Q. And do you have any pets? A. Two dogs. Q. And how long have you had those dogs? A. About 14 years. Q. Did you used to walk those dogs every day? A. Every day, three times. Q. Three times a day? A. Yes. Q. And was one of your routines to walk the dogs around the block A. Yes. Q. Can you just describe for the jury what that walk is that you A. Yeah. I started here. Q. On Dorothy? A. Yeah. I went to Westgate. Q. Right. A. And then over from Westgate to Gorham, and all the way down Gorham Q. Bundy? A. -- Bundy, and went to Bundy regularly, and I came back on Dorothy Q. Then you would go back up Dorothy to your home; is that right? A. Yeah. Q. Okay. Now -- and you've been taking that route of June 12, 1994 for A. Oh, about ten years, I guess. Q. In the course of taking that route a couple of times a day over ten A. Yes, some people I knew. We knew each other. Q. And before June 12, 1994, had you ever walked by with your dogs, A. Yes, past that building. Q. Okay. Do you now know that building to be the building where Nicole A. Yes. Q. Had you ever seen a dog on her property behind the gate? A. Yes, behind the gate, a big Akita. Q. A big Akita? A. Yeah. Q. And would you walk your dogs past the gate area? A. Mostly on the opposite side of the street. Q. Opposite side of the street? A. Yeah. Most of the time, yeah. Q. When you would walk your dogs past her condominium on the opposite A. Yeah, behind a gate. Q. Did you ever hear it barking? A. Yes. Q. Were you familiar with the barking of that Akita? A. Yes. Q. Is it a small dog or big dog? A. Big dog. Q. Now, let me show you a photograph. MR. PETROCELLI: Steve, can you put up -- I guess it's Exhibit 28. Take Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) On the TV screen, we have a picture; it's been A. That's the dog, the Akita that was behind the gate. Q. You have to talk in the microphone. A. Yeah. That was the Akita that was behind the gate, looks like. Q. That's Nicole's Akita? A. Yes. Q. Okay. By the way, is the Akita bigger than the two dogs you're A. Oh, yes. Yes. Q. At some point in evening on June 12, did you take your dogs out for A. Yes. Q. Okay. You got home from work around what time? A. 6 o'clock. Q. Do you do a walk at 6 o'clock? A. Immediately when I come home, I go walk the dogs. Q. And then you have dinner? A. Yeah. Q. And then before you go to bed at night, do you walk the dogs again? A. Yes; 10 o'clock. Q. And on the night of June 12, 1994, you walked your dogs around that A. No. I know it was later. Q. What time was it when you left your house to walk the dogs? A. 15 after 10:00. Q. Okay. Any particular reason why you left a little later that night? A. Yeah. I was reading my paper and looking at TV, and I forgot about Q. So you took -- you took the two dogs and you left your apartment. A. I went to Westgate. Q. Again? A. Right. Q. Two buildings up to Westgate, turned left? A. Turned north. Q. That's north? A. Yeah, north on Westgate, and then west on Gorham. Q. West on Gorham. Made a left, right? A. Slowly. Slowly. Slowly. Q. What happened? Anything in particular happen when you got down near A. Well, when I was walking down Gorham. It was a very quiet Sunday Q. Now, the Akita that you started to hear barking like crazy, did you A. Yeah, immediately. There was no other dog like that in that stretch Q. Okay. A. I recognize the barking. Q. When you heard the dog barking like crazy, what did you do? A. I was immediately alerted, because it's a big dog and I didn't want Q. When you heard the dog barking? A. Yeah. Q. Nicole's Akita barking, you -- from the sounds of the barking, you A. Yeah. It sounds like so close, so close. Q. Okay. And you did not want to go by the house? A. No, because I didn't want to risk for my dogs to have a fight or Q. Well, can you point to the map where you were when you stopped A. Just beyond the alley there. Q. Just past the alley? A. Almost in the curve. Q. Can you see any parts of Nicole's condominium where you were? A. No. Q. You were on the other side of the street from her condominium -- A. Yes. Q. -- on the sidewalk, with the two dogs? A. Yeah. Q. And how loud was the barking? Can you describe it? A. My God, it was -- Q. Why don't you use the microphone? A. Okay. Q. I'm sorry to make you keep getting up. A. That's okay. It was very loud barking. I never heard a barking like Q. Continuous? A. Oh, nonstop. Nonstop. Q. What did you then decide to do? A. I turned around, and I didn't want to go back the same way I came Q. The idea, instead of going down Bundy and up around -- A. Yeah. Q. -- you were going to cut down this alleyway? A. To go back to Dorothy. Q. To get home? A. Yeah. Q. And what time was it, sir, when you heard the dog barking like A. This must have been around 10:30, 10:35. Q. Between 10:30 and 10:35? A. Yeah, something like that. Q. Now, you then began to walk across the alleyway, right? A. Yeah. Q. Approximately how long is that alley? A. Oh, I think it was only a few minutes, two, three minutes. Q. Do you know what the distance is? A. 150 meters something like that. Q. 150 meters? A. Yes. Q. So normally, it would take you two or three minutes to cross the A. Yeah. Q. Now, did anything happen when you started to walk across the alley? A. Well, the dog kept barking and barking and barking. And I went into Q. Let me stop you right there. A. Okay. Q. Just so we don't get too far ahead of ourselves here. (Indicating to map.) A. Exactly opposite. Exactly opposite. Q. Okay. Now, in terms of the terrain here, when you were on this A. Oh, yes. It's much more elevated. Q. You're up high? A. Up high. Q. Can you actually see Nicole's condominium from the alley when A. Well, you can see the roof, the tiles, the red tiles; that I could Q. All you can make out is a red-tile roof? A. Yeah, the red tiles. Q. And this alleyway which is like a driveway, that cuts across here? A. Yeah. It's bigger than a driveway; it's a little wider. Q. And are there homes here between the -- what we're calling the A. Yes, small houses. Q. Okay. A. Small houses. Q. Was there a dog at the house where you stopped? A. Exactly. A little black dog. Q. So let me get the picture. You're walking across; there's a house A. Oh, yeah, constantly. Q. And then at the some point, you stop and you think -- at that A. Yeah. Q. And you're with your two dogs, right? A. Two dogs. Q. Then what happened? A. Then I stood there, I would say, for a minute, listened to these Q. The two dogs being the little black dog that the property owner A. Yeah. It started to bark, too. Q. At the same time, you're still hearing the Akita? A. Yeah. Nonstop. Q. When you say it's barking like crazy, what kind of barking is it? A. It's confused, panicking, but not attacking. Not at all, that he Q. And now -- MR. BAKER: Move to strike. No foundation. THE COURT: You want to lay a little dog foundation? (Laughter.) Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) You've heard lots of dogs barking in lots of A. Oh, yeah. MR. BAKER: Leading and suggestive. Can I get a ruling, please. THE COURT: Overruled. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Are you familiar with different kinds of sounds A. Yeah. Small dogs have different barking than a big dog. It's a deep Q. Can you distinguish between -- well, tell us what you meant when MR. BAKER: Again, no foundation. THE COURT: The man's had a dog for 26 years. He can distinguish it. Go MR. PETROCELLI: Q. In your own words. A. It was panicking, high barking, high barking, and constantly Q. What would you consider an attack kind of barking? A. Its a growl, g-r-r-r-r-r (witness making growl sounds), something Q. Did you hear that kind of barking? A. No, not at all. Q. You didn't hear growling? A. No, no, no, no. Q. Now, when you were sitting there, or standing there with your dogs A. Because -- yeah, but it was around about a minute there, all of a Q. Can you tell if it was a male or female? A. It was a male; no doubt about it. Q. Younger or older male? A. Sounded clear, young voice. Q. And what did you then hear next? A. Immediately after "hey, hey, hey, hey," I heard another voice Q. Was that a male or female? A. Male. Q. Okay. Older or younger than the first voice? MR. BAKER: Foundation. THE WITNESS: Sounds -- THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) You may answer. A. Older. Q. Okay. And you said it was deeper than the first voice? A. Yeah. Pretty deep voice. Q. Now, could you hear any actual words being spoken by the second, A. No, because the dogs were barking so loud, it was impossible to Q. Okay. After you heard the second deeper voice, did you hear A. Yeah. It didn't last no more than 15 seconds, I would say. Then I Q. And in your opinion, that's where those noises were coming from? A. Oh yes, no doubt. Q. How many times did you hear a gate slam? A. Just once. Yeah. Q. Now, what did you do after you heard all this? A. Well, then I continued out of the alley. And if these two guys have Q. And then at some point, you got to the end of this alley where it A. Yeah. Q. And you previously testified that you began to go into that alley A. Yeah, 10:35. Q. How many minutes after that were you at the other end of the alley? A. Was a little more, because I stood there and listened to the dog Q. Five minutes, at the outside? A. Yeah, at the outside. Q. You said three, four, five minutes; is that your testimony? A. Yeah. Four minutes or something. Q. Okay. And when you got to the other end of the alley, what then A. Okay. Out of the alley. And the dogs were still barking nonstop; it Q. You started to walk up the hill? A. Yeah. Just -- Q. Is this a hill, by the way? This is Dorothy? A. No. It goes a little -- it goes a little up, but not very much. Q. So when you got to this alley here, you made a left on Dorothy, A. Yeah. Q. And then you walked a little bit up? A. Yeah, about two houses. Two houses. About two, three, and listened Q. Let me stop you there. There's a tree? A. There's a big oak tree or something. Q. And you stopped under the tree? A. I was under the tree, yes. Q. And on which side of the street, this side? A. Yeah. Q. I guess that's what, north? A. It's north, I guess. Q. So, on the north side of the street. And you're under the oak tree A. Right. Q. -- and with your dogs, right? A. Um-hum. Q. And then what did you see or what happened? A. So I stood there for a minute, I would say, a minute and a half or Q. Dorothy? A. -- and Dorothy, yes. Q. So you're about -- you want to point where you are? A. Yeah. Q. Where you're standing? A. I was standing there, about there. Q. Let the record reflect, I guess you're pointing a little west of A. Yeah. Q. And where is the street lamp that you were referring to? A. The middle of this street here. Q. Okay. Up on Bundy and Dorothy? A. And Dorothy. Q. What direction are you facing, are you looking? A. West. Q. Are you looking at the intersection? A. Yeah, I'm looking at the intersection. Q. What was the lighting like? A. It was pretty good lighting. Q. I think I misspoke. I think it's east of the alley, not west of the A. Yeah, east. You're right. Sorry. Q. What did you see when you were looking down at the intersection A. I was looking down there. From nowhere, all of a sudden, then I saw Q. Okay. A. It came all of a sudden out of the dark. I could see it right away Q. And then what did you see the car do? A. The car came out of the -- like I said, from the dark into the Q. Did it make a turn? A. No, it went south. It made a right turn. Q. A right turn? A. Yes, south. Q. So the car is on Dorothy, comes up to the intersection, and you A. Yeah. Just, I could see it coming into the intersection, yeah. Q. And then it makes a right-hand turn? A. Yeah. Sped away fast. Q. And sped away fast in the direction -- A. South. Q. South? A. South, yes. Q. Were you able to get a good look at the car? A. It was a wide kind of jeep, with tinted glasses. Q. Tinted windows? A. Tinted windows. Yes, sir. MR. PETROCELLI: Can we put up the next photo, which has been marked as (The instrument herein described was marked for identification as Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Did the car that you saw that evening look like A. It was -- it resembled a car like this, yes. For sure, I couldn't Q. And the color? A. White. Q. That was a little basic kind of vehicle, was it? A. Yeah. It was a big car, big vehicle like this. Q. Okay. Now, did the truck or the car have its headlights on? A. That, I don't recall. I can't recall that at all. Q. Did you have any opinion as you saw the vehicle speed away, whether A. Oh yes. It was -- must have been in a hurry; it sped away fast. Q. Can you tell us about what time it was when you made that A. It must have been around 10:40, 10:45, in between. No more than Q. Little before 10:45? A. Yeah. Q. But in the area of 10:40 to 10:45? A. Exactly, yeah. Q. Now, you said you were on the other side of the alley at 10:30, A. Yeah. Q. And it took you five minutes to cross on this particular night, A. Yeah. It took longer because I was standing there, listening to the Q. That would put you on the other side of the alleyway at around A. Yeah. MR. BAKER: Your Honor, leading; asked and answered. THE COURT: It is leading. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) And again, after you got to the other side of MR. BAKER: Asked and answered. THE COURT: Overruled. A. When I came out of alley, you mean? Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Yeah. A. A minute, minute and a half, or something like that. Q. You were standing under that oak tree? A. Yeah. Q. Okay. By the way, what do you do for a living? A. I'm a car detailer. Somebody wants a used car -- Q. And after you saw the car speed away, what did you then do? A. I proceeded to go home to my apartment, very slowly, with my older Q. And then you did what? A. I went, while the dogs were barking, never stopped, I went on to my Q. And about what time was it when you got inside? A. Well, must have been around 11:00, because my TV was on and they Q. By the way, I think you said this -- just to make sure -- the A. Yeah. Q. -- Was that light on or off? A. It was on, for sure. I could never have seen the car. Q. Okay. Sir, after the -- you testified in the criminal trial, right? A. I did, yes. Q. Okay. And the verdict came down sometime in October of last year? A. Yeah. Q. Okay. Now, since that time, have you made plans to write a book A. Yes, after the verdict. Q. Okay. Have you sold your book? A. No. No takers. Q. Nobody interested? A. Guess not. Q. You have not received any money at all? A. Not at all, not one penny. Q. And basically, the book that you are writing is about the A. Right. Exactly. Q. And did you write any of that book before you testified at the A. No, never. MR. PETROCELLI: Okay. Thank you. THE COURT: Okay. Ten-minute recess, ladies and gentlemen. Don't talk (Recess.) CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BAKER: Q. Morning, Mr. Heidstra. A. Good morning. Q. My name is Bob Baker; I represent Mr. O.J. Simpson. A. Yes. Q. Mr. Darden didn't put you on the stand? MR. BREWER: Objection. Relevance. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) In terms of your movements the night of the 12th -- A. Right. Q. Walked east? A. Yes. Q. Walked north of Westgate? A. Westgate, yes. Q. Left on Gorham, and came down to the area on Bundy and you were on A. Yeah. Q. You hadn't crossed over to the west side of Bundy? A. No. No. No, I was on the east side. Q. You walked down to an area past the alley where Bundy makes that A. Yeah. Q. That's when you heard the Akita barking? A. Yeah, very loud. Q. Okay. And that's about 10:30, right? A. 10:30, 10:35, about that time. Q. 10:30, 10:35? A. Um-hum. Q. And then you don't see the dog out in the street, do you? A. No. It sounded very close, yeah, but I didn't see it, no. Q. And when you heard that dog, you thought maybe that dog could be of A. Right. Q. Okay. Now, when you got to the -- walked down the alleyway, you got A. Yes. Q. -- in the alleyway, and there was another little dog there, and it A. Yes, started barking. Yes. Q. You couldn't see, obviously, through that house, that the little A. No. You can see only tile roofs. Q. You can stand here and look up and see the tile roofs? A. Yes. Q. And the Akita's still barking loudly? A. Oh, yeah, nonstop. Q. And the other dog is a smaller dog, and it's barking at you as A. Yeah. Q. And were your two dogs barking at all? A. No, I was very lucky. They didn't bark once. Q. Now, when you got to the place where you were parallel to Nicole's, A. No, no, no. It was before that. Q. Let me read what you said in the criminal trial, please, at 36504, A. I don't recall that at all, sir. Unfortunately, it's too late. Q. Well, I take it a year or so ago, your memory may have been just a A. Repeat it again. Q. Be happy to. All I'm saying is that our memories are usually better A. Sure. Sure, I understand. Q. Okay. And then when you came -- you proceeded down the alley, south A. Yeah, around 10:45. A little before that, I would say. Q. Let me read to you what you said in your trial testimony, just to MR. PETROCELLI: What page? Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Again at 36504. A. Exactly. Around that time. Around that time. Q. I understand, sir. So we're looking at an approximation, give or A. Right. Q. And are you on the north or south side of the street? A. North. Q. North. And you look back to see a vehicle turn right on -- on A. Right. Q. And you had just seen a couple cars go past, had you not? A. Yeah. Up and down Bundy, two cars. Q. Now, you were a car detailer at Salinger's, next door to Mr. A. I am still, yes. Q. You are still. If you were going -- you obviously have some A. Yes. Q. Now, would you agree that if you were in a hurry and wanted to get A. No. It could be south, too. Q. Well, the quickest way to get there isn't to come down the alley, MR. PETROCELLI: Argumentative. MR. KELLY: Objection. THE WITNESS: No. THE COURT: Sustained. MR. PETROCELLI: It's outside the scope, too. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Is the quickest way to get up to the Salinger's A. No, but it can be done. If you go south, you go to Mayfield, the Q. I see. A. Because north, you get traffic lights all *over the place. Q. Actually, you don't get any traffic lights if you head up Gretna A. There's no traffic lights, no stop signs. MR. BAKER: Thanks. I don't have anything further. THE COURT: Anything else? MR. PETROCELLI: No, Your Honor. THE COURT: Thank you. You may step down. MR. BAKER: I'm sorry; I have one more area. I apologize. I have one Q. (BY MR. BAKER) When you talked -- being a car detailer, you A. Yeah. Q. When you talked to the police, you indicated that the car you say A. Yeah. They interviewed me and they pointed to me what kind of -- Q. You said it was shaped similarly to a Chevy Blazer parked in his A. This size of the car. Q. Now, one other thing: You testified, did you not, that the color A. No. It was definitely white, sir. Q. Let me just get your -- 36324. MR. PETROCELLI: One second, Mr. Baker. Okay. MR. BAKER: (Reading:) A. It was white, definitely white. Q. So it wasn't white or light? A. No, it was white. Q. It wasn't white or light? A. It was white. Q. Thank you. MR. BAKER: Nothing further. Q. When the police spoke to you, did they point to a car in the A. Yes. Q. And what was that car? A. That was a Blazer car. Q. Was there a Bronco there? A. No. Q. When Mr. Baker was asking you about Gretna Green and Bundy, did you A. That they don't have, only stop signs. Q. And Bundy does have lights? A. Yes. Q. Okay. Thank you. Q. One more thing, Mr.Heidstra: When you come out of the alley between A. Repeat again -- Q. I apologize. A. -- please. Q. It's an important question, and I'm sorry. A. Which alley you mean? Q. The alley between Bundy and Gretna Green. I'm sorry. A. Down between? You mean behind Nicole's -- Q. Yeah. A. -- condo? Q. Sure. That's a big enough alley to simply make a U-turn if you A. You can make a U-turn. Q. So you could head north on -- A. To Gretna Green, you mean? Q. Well, you could go north to Montana if you wanted? A. Yeah. Q. And you could obviously take a right turn, take another right turn, A. Yes. Q. Sure, thanks. Nothing further. Q. When you saw the car, the white car approach the intersection, you A. No. Q. And so you did not know where that car was parked? A. No. It's dark. Q. Okay. That car could have been parked on Dorothy? A. Sure. Yes. Yes. Q. Thank you. MR. BAKER: It's not that I need the last word. (Laughter.) Q. (BY MR. BAKER) That car could have been coming straight down A. No. It came out of the dark, complete dark behind there. Q. It could have come out of Gretna Green, Dorothy, anyplace? A. Yes. MR. BAKER: Thanks. Nothing further. THE COURT: Is that all? MR. PETROCELLI: Yes, sir. THE COURT: You may step down. Thank you. THE WITNESS: Thank you. (Witness excused.) THE COURT: Next witness. MR. PETROCELLI: Louis Karpf, Your Honor. THE CLERK: You do solemnly swear that the testimony you may give in THE WITNESS: I do. THE BAILIFF: Please be seated. THE CLERK: And, sir, if you would, please state and spell your name THE WITNESS: It's Louis Karpf, L-O-U-I-S, K-A-R-P-F. Q. Morning, Mr. Karpf? A. Morning. Q. Where do you live? A. I live at 873 South Bundy Drive. Q. Referring you to Exhibit 18 -- MR. PETROCELLI: Can you all see here, by the way? JURORS: (Nod affirmatively.) Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) This is Nicole's A. Yes, I do. Q. Where in relation to Nicole's condominium do you live? A. It would be the first building north. Q. So it would be here? A. Right. Q. That's correct? A. Okay. Q. On the evening of June 12, did you -- where were you around 10 A. I was just getting back from a trip to San Jose, arriving at LAX. Q. Okay. And about what time did you get home? A. I arrived home between 10:45, 10:40 to 10:45. Q. Now, when you arrived at home, what did you first do, pull into A. Yes; I pulled in the garage next to the alley. So... Q. And after you pulled into your garage, what did you then do? A. I entered the house, put my bag down, and proceeded to the mailbox. Q. So you didn't do anything in between? A. No, I didn't. Q. And so you go in the garage, go in the house. Did you go out a A. Yes. I go out the front door. Q. Okay. And you went out to the mailbox, right? A. That is correct. Q. Where is it located? A. It's about 10 feet from the curb on Bundy. Q. So that would be north of Nicole's condominium, right? A. Yes. Q. Okay. Tell us what happened when you went out to your mailbox. A. As I was approaching the mailbox, a large and agitated dog was in Q. So you were getting to the mailbox, but never quite got there A. That's correct. MR. PETROCELLI: And Steve, could you put up that picture? It's Exhibit (The instrument herein described was marked for identification as Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Let me show you a photograph of a dog that has A. Yes, it is. Q. Okay. And what did you do after you saw the dog? A. I stepped back inside my gate, which is a locked gate, and waited Q. And the dog was where, again? A. It was in the middle of the street, coming towards me. Q. And you were a little frightened? A. Yes, I was. Q. What was the dog doing, other than walking towards you? A. Barking very loudly. Q. You then retreated? A. I then retreated inside the gate. Q. And what happened next? A. As soon as he started to walk up the street, which is north, I Q. Okay. What time was it when you saw the dog in the middle of the A. I would say the latest would be about 10:50. Q. Could it have been earlier than 10:50? MR. BAKER: Speculation. Leading. THE COURT: Overruled. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) What was the approximate time range? A. I'd say between 10:45 and 10:50. Q. And after you saw the dog, you went inside. And did you hear or see A. No, I didn't. MR. PETROCELLI: Okay. Thank you. THE COURT: Cross. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. LEONARD: Q. Morning, Mr. Karpf; my name is Dan Leonard. I represent O.J. A. Morning. Q. Now, you were interviewed by the police shortly after the incident A. Probably about one or two weeks later. Q. And you recall when you were interviewed by the police, you told A. I remember seeing what I wrote from what they said. Q. Okay. That was your best recollection at the time? A. At the time, right. Q. And you would agree that your recollection back then is better than A. I would say yes for today, yes. Q. Okay. Because I thought you said today that you arrived home A. Somewhere around 10:45, plus or minus five minutes either way. I Q. But when you were talking to the police, you were trying to give A. Yes, I was. Q. And again, you told them sometime between 10:50 and 11 o'clock? A. That's what I said, yes. Q. Okay. Now, the way you were able to reconstruct the time at that
A. I knew what time the plane arrived at and approximately how long it Q. You thought the plane arrived at 10 o'clock? A. About 10 o'clock. Q. Have you ever -- have you ever tried to determine, after the fact, A. No, I didn't. Q. Again, what you did is, you thought about it, and you determined A. Right. Q. Walking to the parking lot? A. That's correct. Q. Finding your car, right? A. Correct. Q. Paying for the ticket? A. Um-hum. Q. Or paying the parking, right, and then driving home, right? A. Yes. Um-hum. Q. And you figured out it was between 10:50 and 11 o'clock, based on A. Yes. Q. Would it surprise you to learn that the flight arrived at 10:12, A. Yes, it would. Q. If the flight arrived at 10:12, would you agree with me that your A. If it arrived at 10:12, I possibly would not have gotten home Q. In fact, would it be much closer to 11:00 or after? A. No. Q. Excuse me. It certainly wouldn't -- Excuse me? A. No. Q. It certainly wouldn't be 10:40 to 10:45, would it? A. I would say 10:50, if it got at the gate 10:12. I've done this many Q. Thank you very much. When you first arrived, you didn't hear, when A. Not from the garage, no. Q. Thank you. A. Um-hum. THE COURT: Anything else? MR. PETROCELLI: Yeah, a few more. Q. What airline were you flying? A. Southwest. Q. When you got off the plane, how far was the parking lot? A. Maybe 100 feet from in front of the terminal. Q. So, right next to the gate? A. Yes. Q. Hundred feet, you said? A. Probably. Q. And then you got in your car. And did you make any stops along the A. No, I didn't. Q. You went up what, the 405? A. 405 to Wilshire, west to Bundy, then north. Q. Okay. Little past 10 o'clock on Sunday night. Any traffic? A. Very little. Q. Okay. Thank you. Q. Just so I can clarify, this was Southwest Flight 852 that you were A. I have no idea. Q. It was a flight out of San Jose? A. That is correct. Q. Thank you. MR. PETROCELLI: Nothing further. THE COURT: You're excused. I thank you. MR. PETROCELLI: Your Honor, our next two witnesses are not here yet. MR. BAKER: Your Honor, we better approach on this, because I think THE COURT: Jurors, you're excused until 1:30. Do you have other MR. BAKER: I don't know. It's not my case. THE COURT: Well, is there any reason I shouldn't excuse them until MR. BAKER: I don't know. If they're not coming until 1:30, of course, MR. PETROCELLI: They were supposed to be here by noon. THE COURT: At noon. Well, we don't plan to be in session at noon. MR. PETROCELLI: Yeah. I thought we would put them on at 1:30. I THE COURT: 1:30. Leave your notebooks on the seat. The bailiff is JURORS: (Nod affirmatively.) Yes, sir. THE COURT: Okay. JURORS: Yes. THE COURT: Now, you're going to be going home over the weekend. You've (Luncheon recess taken at 10:55 a.m.) SANTA MONICA, CALIFORNIA FRIDAY, (REGINA D. CHAVEZ, OFFICIAL REPORTER) THE COURT: Okay. Call your next witness. MR. PETROCELLI: Thank you, Your Honor. THE CLERK: You do solemnly swear that the testimony you may give in THE WITNESS: I do. THE CLERK: Please, state and spell both your first and your last names THE WITNESS: My name is Steven Schwab, S-T-E-V-E-N, S-C-H-W-A-B. THE CLERK: Thank you. Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Schwab. A. Good afternoon. Q. I'm going to give you this pointer; it will make it easier on you. A. I live on Montana Avenue, between Westgate and Bundy, approximately (Indicating to map of Bundy area.) Q. This is Westgate. I'm pointing to this street? A. Yes, this would be Westgate. Q. You point to the street east of Bundy. We're referring to east of A. Yes, I did. Q. Did you have pets on June 12, 1994? A. Yes. I own two pets, a dog and a cat. Q. And did you take your dog for a walk in the evening? A. Yes, I did. Q. What was your routine, let's say, for a weekday? A. During the week, I used to walk my dog between 11:00 and 11:30 at Q. On the weekends. Excuse me. A. Weekends were a little different. On the weekends, I tended to walk Q. On June 12, 1994 -- that was a Sunday, right? A. That was a Sunday night, yes. Q. What time did you leave to walk your dog? A. That night, I left just after 10:30. Q. How do you know that? A. Well, my routine was, on Sunday nights, at that time, was to watch Q. Are you in the entertainment business? A. Yes; I work in television. Q. Okay. So you left on June 12, in the evening, at 10:30? A. Yes, that's right. Q. What is the route that you took on your dog walk? Do you want to A. Well, my routine was to leave my apartment on Montana, walk down Q. Okay. Now, when you used to get to the corner of Dorothy and Bundy, A. When I was walking on Bundy, I tended to walk on the east side of Q. And this little icon here represents 875 South Bundy -- A. Uh-huh. Q. -- the home of Nicole Brown Simpson at that time. Why did you walk A. Well, that side of Bundy, the east side of Bundy is much better lit Q. And typically, how long would it take, based on your normal A. That would take me approximately 20 minutes or so. Q. Okay. Now, on this evening, when you left at 10:30 p.m., as you A. As I approached the corner of Dorothy and Bundy, I saw that there Q. Can you point to where you saw the dog? A. Yes. I saw the dog here at the corner, as I was walking between Q. You were on the north side of the street here? A. At this time, I was on the north side of the street, yeah. Q. And you saw the dog on this northwest corner right here? A. That's correct. Q. And the dog was on the sidewalk? A. The dog was on the sidewalk. There's a corner building here with a Q. A door to a building? A. To a house, a house. MR. PETROCELLI: And, Steve, why don't you put up the next exhibit. I Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Do you recognize the dog in Exhibit 28? A. Yes. Q. Is that the dog that you saw on the evening of June 12, 1994, at A. Yes, it is. Q. We'll leave that up for a second. Approximately what time was it A. That would have been approximately 10:55. Q. Okay. A. Yeah. Q. And what happened when you saw the dog? A. Well, I approached the dog. I was surprised to see a dog loose on Q. Did the dog have a leash? A. There was no leash on the dog. Q. Did you notice anything unusual about the dog? A. As I looked down at the dog, I noticed -- first thing I noticed was Q. Did the blood appear -- the drip of blood that you described, did A. Yes, it appeared moist. It was red and shiny. Q. Did the dog have a leash? A. There was no leash on the dog, no. Q. What happened next? Well, before I get there, you said the dog was A. Yes. Q. In what direction? A. The dog was barking towards the corner house. Q. Okay. A. Towards the door of the house. Q. What kind of barking was it? A. A loud barking, as if to get -- try to get someone's attention, Q. Okay. Now, after you saw the dog with the blood on him, what did A. Well, I looked around to see if there was anyone in the area, but Q. Okay. So with the pointer -- you're saying -- I'll try to trace the A. Yes, that's correct. Q. Where you thought it was better lit? A. That's my general route home because it's better lit on that side Q. Than on the other side? A. Yeah. Q. And you started walking north on Bundy? A. Yes. Q. And -- with your dog? A. With my dog. Q. And what was the Akita doing? A. The Akita was doing an interesting thing. It was continuing this Q. Okay. And then you continued on home? A. I continued on towards home, yes. Q. And what time did you get home? A. I got home at approximately 11:05. The TV was still on when I got Q. Now, from 10:55, when you found the dog, to 11:05, when you got A. Well, as I was walking up Bundy, I saw a police car drive by, so I Q. And you did? A. I did. I took the dog back to my apartment building. Q. And did you take the dog inside your house? A. Well, the dog, no. No, I didn't. Q. Tell us what happened. A. The dog followed. I live on the second floor. And the dog followed Q. Did you get a closer look at the dog, to see where the blood was? A. Yes. The courtyard of my building is much better lit. There are Q. Then what happened? A. Well, I noticed that the dog was dehydrated. Q. And then what happened? A. Well, I called back the people at animal control. They said they Q. And what happened next? A. Well, then my neighbor, Sukru, came home and -- Q. What is his last name? A. Sukru Boztepe. And he was surprised to see me with this big Akita, Q. Approximately what time did you give Mr. Boztepe the dog? A. Well, I gave him the dog at about 11:50 or so. He had come home Q. So you were out in your courtyard with Mr. Boztepe and your wife, A. Yes. His wife, Bettina, had come out of her apartment building -- Q. And what happened in the morning? A. Well, at around 5:00 a.m., there was someone pounding on my door, Q. And what did you tell the detectives? A. Well -- MR. BAKER: Objection. Hearsay. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Were you awakened from a sound sleep? A. Yes, I was. Q. Did you indicate the time that you found the dog on the corner of MR. P. BAKER: Hearsay. THE COURT: You can answer yes or no. THE WITNESS: Can I hear the question again? MR. PETROCELLI: I'll withdraw the question. THE COURT: All right. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) When you handed the dog off at 11:40 to 11:50, A. That's the last time I saw the dog, yes. Q. Okay. MR. P. BAKER: We have no questions. Thank you. THE COURT: Thank you. MR. PETROCELLI: Thank you. THE WITNESS: Thank you. MR. PETROCELLI: On this next witness, the defense and the plaintiffs (The instrument herein described was marked for identification as THE CLERK: You do solemnly swear that the testimony you may give in THE WITNESS: I do. THE CLERK: Please be seated. And, sir if you would, please state and THE WITNESS: Sukru Bozdepe, S-U-K-R-U, B-O-Z-D-E-P-E Q. Good afternoon, sir. A. Good afternoon. Q. On June 12, 1994, where did you live? A. On Montana, between Bundy and San Vicente. Q. You want to point there, sir? (Witness complies, points to map.) A. Right up here. Q. What time in the evening did you come home? A. 11:40 p.m. Q. What happened when you came home? A. When I entered courtyard, I see Dennis Schwab and Dana Schwab and MR. PETROCELLI: Steve, can you put on Exhibit 28. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Recognize the dog in Exhibit 28? A. Yes, that was the dog. Q. That was the dog you saw in the courtyard with Mr. Schwab? A. Yes. Q. That's a little awkward. See if you can talk right in that A. Yes, I did. Q. And what did you do with the dog? A. I took the dog inside, in our apartment, and we were going to go to Q. Now, had Mr. Schwab told you where he found the dog? A. Yes, he did. Q. Okay. Did you decide to take the dog back to that area? A. Yes. Q. And what was that area? A. The corner of Bundy and Dorothy. Q. Okay. So you started walking. You want to trace the route that you A. Just before midnight. Q. Just before midnight. Okay. With the dog. And who else was with A. My wife Bettina. Q. Bettina. You, Bettina, and the Akita? A. Yes. Q. Can you tell us the route that you took? (Witness indicates to map of Bundy area.) A. We left from here. Q. You're going west on Montana? A. Yes. And we cross Montana at this point. Q. Now you're going south on Bundy, on the east side? A. Yes. Q. Okay. Keep going. A. Then we cross -- we continue. We cross the street. Q. Past Gorham? A. And then we cross to Bundy in that way. Q. Okay. Now, you cross to the west side -- A. Yes. Q. -- of Bundy. A. And then we continue down this way. Q. Okay. Down in the direction of where we have this little red house A. Yes. Q. Okay. And was the dog doing anything unusual? A. Well, the dog was all right until here. Q. You're pointing to Bundy, just north of Gorham? A. Yes. Q. The dog was acting normally until that point? A. Yes. Q. And then? A. Then dog starts pulling me a little bit hard. And then we cross the Q. So the dog actually pulled you across the street? A. Yeah. And then start pulling harder and harder and harder until Q. Okay. Now you're pointing to the one which represents 875 South A. Yes. Q. You're saying the dog stopped there? A. Yes. Q. And where on the sidewalk did the dog stop? A. Dog stopped basically on the sidewalk in front of the pathway to Q. And where were you in relation to the dog? A. Just behind of it. Q. So the dog is in front of you, and you're holding -- did you have a A. Yes, I did. Q. Got that leash from -- A. Steven. Q. -- Steven Schwab? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And when the dog stopped in front of 875 South Bundy, what A. It looked towards the house. Q. What were the lighting conditions like? A. It was very dark. Q. Very dark? A. Very dark. Q. Could you see, or did you notice the sidewalk area where you were A. Can you explain? Q. Did you see anything on the sidewalk where you were stepping on? A. Not really. Q. Why? Because it was dark? A. It was dark. MR. BAKER: I object. Leading. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) What was the reason you couldn't see? A. It wasn't lit enough. Q. Okay. Now, what happened when you saw the dog staring down the A. I looked at the same direction. Q. And what did you see? A. I saw a lady laying down and full of blood. MR. PETROCELLI: Steve, you have the next exhibit. I'll caution the Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Now, looking at this Exhibit 32, is that the A. Yes. Q. Was it as light as that? A. No, not at all. Q. What was the lighting like? A. It was very dark. Q. Very dark. And what were you able to see? A. I saw just the lady; I could see that she was blond, and I could Q. Okay. Did you -- could you step down here for a second, please, A. I guess sidewalk. Q. You were on the sidewalk? A. Yes. Q. And when you first saw the body of Nicole, was the dog looking in A. Yes. Q. Had the dog not looked in that direction, would you have noticed MR. BAKER: Objection. Calls for speculation. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Before the dog looked in that direction, did MR. BAKER: Objection. No foundation. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: No, I didn't. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Excuse me? A. I wouldn't. Q. Okay. And did you -- did you take any steps down the pathway? A. No, I didn't. Q. Did the dog go down the pathway? A. No. Q. Did you form any opinion about whether this person was dead or A. She was dead. Q. That was what you saw? A. Yes. Q. Okay. MR. PETROCELLI: You can take the picture off. You can sit down. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) What did you then do? A. I told my wife that that was a dead person there. And we crossed Q. So you knocked on the first door and nobody answered? A. Nobody answered. Q. And then you saw a woman going to her car across the street from A. Not Nicole's condominium, but toward this side, maybe. Q. On the opposite side of the street? A. Yes. Q. North? A. Yes. Q. How far past it? A. Just around here, I guess. She passed toward here. Q. You told that person to call 911? A. Yes. Q. And that person drove off? A. Yes. Q. And then you knocked on another neighbor's door -- A. Yes. Q. -- next to the first person whose door you knocked on? A. Yes. Q. And you told that person to call 911? A. Yes. Q. Okay. What time was it when you first saw Nicole's body? A. I can only guess. I don't remember. Q. What is your best approximation? A. 12:05. Q. Shortly after midnight? A. Yes, yes. Q. You said you left your house shortly before midnight? A. Yes. Q. And you walked directly in the path that you took, right? A. Yes. Q. And did you make any stops? A. No. Q. Okay. You think it was about five minutes after midnight? A. I would say so. Q. After you knocked on the door of the second person, did that person A. Yes, he did. Q. And that person said that he or she would call 911? A. Yes. It was he, and he called 911. Q. What did you then do? A. We wait. Q. You waited with the dog? A. Yes. Q. And your wife Bettina? A. Yes. Q. Did the police arrive? A. Yes; they arrived very shortly. Q. Very shortly? A. Yes. Q. And what did you do then, when the police arrived? A. We flagged them down and we told -- we told them about the scene. Q. You pointed out to the police -- A. Yes. Q. -- man what you had seen? A. Yes. Q. Did you cross the street and go back to the sidewalk? A. No. Q. You did it from across the street? A. Yes. Q. So you never did go back to the area where you first saw Nicole's A. No. Q. Did you see another person's body besides Nicole's from your A. No. Q. Thank you. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BAKER: Q. Couple questions, sir. When you were on Bundy, when the dog looked A. Depends what "clearly" means. Q. Well, let me ask you, you saw her lying down horizontally, did you A. Yes. Q. You saw her face turned towards you? A. Yes. Q. And you saw that she was on her right side? A. I think she was on her left side. Q. Okay. And you were able to see that from the area where you had the A. Yes. Q. And then, so the light -- and you were also able to determine from A. What do you mean? Q. She was dead. A. Yes. Q. Okay. And you had enough light to make all those determinations A. Well, I came to the conclusion of being that, because I understand Q. Okay A. -- hours ago, and it was bloody. That's why I thought it was that. Q. Fair enough. When the police got there, did you watch the police go A. Yes. Q. And how many police were there when they initially -- strike that. A. At first, or... Q. First. A. Two police officers. Q. Okay. And did you see them open the gate and walk in to where the A. No. I wasn't close, so I didn't see anything, so -- I was across THE REPORTER: I didn't understand. THE WITNESS: They disappeared in the middle of bushes. Q. Okay. Did you see any police officers go into the area where Nicole A. Well, both of them went through that direction. And I don't know Q. Did you subsequently remain there and see any other police officers A. You mean after the two police officers? Q. Yes. Yes, sir. A. Too many police officers came. Q. Did you see any of them go into the crime scene beyond the gate, A. Well, only thing I could see is beginning of the sidewalk and the MR. BAKER: Thank you very much. Q. Why did you stop in front of 875 South Bundy? MR. BAKER: Asked and answered. THE COURT: Sustained Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Did you hear any noises when you were A. No. Q. Okay. Thank you. MR. BAKER: I don't have any questions. THE COURT: Thank you. You're excused. (Witness excused.) MR. PETROCELLI: Resume Monday morning, Your Honor? THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, that's all the witnesses that they JURORS: (Nod affirmatively.) THE COURT: Again, your notes will be secure with the bailiff, and they MR. PETROCELLI: Your Honor, I submitted a list of witnesses. THE COURT: Yes. MR. PETROCELLI: I'm just awaiting Mr. Baker's estimate on THE COURT: Thank you. MR. BAKER: I lost the list. MR. P. BAKER: I've got it somewhere. THE COURT: All right. Then we'll be adjourned until Monday, 8:30. (At 2:14 P.M. an adjournment was taken until Monday, October 28, 1996, |