APRIL 21, 1995


Department no. 103 Hon. Lance A. Ito, Judge

APPEARANCES: (Appearances as heretofore noted; also present on behalf of the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department, Commander Holland.)

(Janet M. Moxham, CSR no. 4855, official reporter.)

(Christine M. Olson, CSR no. 2378, official reporter.)

(The following proceedings were held in camera:)

THE COURT: On the record in the chambers with Mr. Cochran, Mr. Shapiro, Mr. Bailey, Mr. Douglas, Mr. Neufeld for the Defense. And Mr. Darden and Mr. Goldberg for the people. Counsel, this morning I received from the jurors two notes and a communication to the court through the clerk, Miss Robertson, that the jurors wish--or a large number of them wish to speak to the Court. And if you recall, during our discussions with the jurors, I told them that at any time there was something that they needed to talk to me, that they were welcome to communicate that to me. And apparently, given the letter that we have from 984 and the group letter signed by--thirteen jurors?

THE BAILIFF: Thirteen.

THE COURT: Thirteen jurors--indicate that there is something important that they would like to discuss with the Court. I will hear any comment or suggestion counsel have. Mr. Darden.

MR. DARDEN: Bring them in.

THE COURT: Mr. Cochran.

MR. COCHRAN: I think they are entitled to be heard. Bring them in. I would like to find out how they would know about it.

THE COURT: That is an interesting question, too. Well, it is apparent they got back and there are three people gone. Even you could figure that out, Mr. Johnnie.

MR. COCHRAN: I could, your Honor, but as a juror, though, what am I going to do, unless somebody tells me that they got moved out from there, and so I think we should ask them who told them by whom.

THE COURT: That is an interesting side issue.

MR. COCHRAN: That could turn out to be the most critical issue.

THE COURT: All right. I propose then that we adopt the same procedure, that we have two lawyers from each side here. I will allow the sheriff's commander to be present and we will talk with them on the record. Now, just logistically, this is for Mr. Neufeld and Mr. Goldberg's edification, our conversations with the jurors lasted the last time about--average was about twenty minutes a shot. Since we only have a morning session, my suspicion is that we will not get to taking testimony this morning is my guess.

MR. NEUFELD: Just one question, your Honor.

THE COURT: Just one question. Well, then we will go out and you can ask that one question.

MR. COCHRAN: And he is finished, your Honor.

MR. NEUFELD: No, no it is a somewhat selfish question. I have not been home or seen my family in many, many weeks and if in fact we are not going to take testimony right now I will leave.

THE COURT: Take a red-eye.

MR. NEUFELD: Not take a red-eye, I will take a morning flight and be out of here.

THE COURT: Mr. Goldberg, any comment on that? Any disagreement?

MR. GOLDBERG: I don't think so, based on what is happening.

THE COURT: You don't have any problem with that, Mr. Goldberg?

MR. GOLDBERG: Is there any way of us proceeding forward this morning? It doesn't look like it.

THE COURT: I don't want to go forward without seeing what is going on with the jury and I think--

MR. GOLDBERG: I have no objection to that.

THE COURT: All right. Have a nice weekend.

MR. NEUFELD: Mr. Cochran, Mr. Shapiro with your permission?

MR. COCHRAN: More than fine. When would you come back?

MR. NEUFELD: Sunday night.

(Discussion held off the record.)

THE COURT: Back on the record. If you also recall, I was going to interview the sheriff's deputies this afternoon, so let's see how long this takes and we will see how far we get by, say, elevenish or so, and then we will have an idea of whether or not we will go forward with the sheriff's deputies this afternoon. Mr. Darden.

MR. DARDEN: One question. Are you going to interview the jurors whose names are not--

THE COURT: I'm going to interview those jurors who have asked to speak to me.

MR. DARDEN: And only those?

MR. DOUGLAS: For continuity can I be allowed to stay, since I was here yesterday and the day before, and I take better notes than these guys anyway?

MR. DARDEN: They get three, we get three, and I would like to have three actually.

THE COURT: Okay. I don't have a problem with that.

MR. DOUGLAS: Thank you.

THE COURT: Are we still waiting for Marcia?

MR. DARDEN: If you want to get started, that is fine with me. I will have Mr. Goldberg.

MR. SHAPIRO: Off the record for a second.

THE COURT: All right. Off the record.

(Discussion held off the record.)

(brief pause.)


THE COURT: Mrs. Robertson, could we have no. 230, please.

(Brief pause.)

(Juror no. 230 enters chambers.)

THE COURT: Good morning. 230. How are you?

JUROR NO. 230: Fine, thank you.

THE COURT: If you recall, the last time we were in here chatting together--good morning, by the way.

JUROR NO. 230: Good morning.

THE COURT: --I indicated to you that you should feel free to drop a note to the bailiffs if you wanted to talk to me and I see you have taken me up on that?

JUROR NO. 230: Yes.

THE COURT: All right. And that policy is ongoing. What would you like to talk to me about?

JUROR NO. 230: I want to talk to you personally about the information that I hear that part of our staff has been dismissed.

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

JUROR NO. 230: And I can only assume that it was based on the allegations that we--that you questioned us about the other day, and I personally felt that I just needed to state that I feel personally that they were falsely accused. If the Court made the decision based on those allegations, I don't know, and generally I guess we are just sort of spoiled because generally you let us know anything that affects us, you know, as a group, and even if you can't let us know, you would let us know that you can't let us know. And in this particular case, I guess that when we did hear the information, everybody was, you know, sort of upset.

THE COURT: How did you hear the information?

JUROR NO. 230: There was a questioned asked about--something that we are supposed to be doing Saturday which Deputy "I" had set up, and the information I guess came about that she no longer, you know, worked here, and after that, you know, it was just like haywire just spread all over. And like I said, I personally felt it was based on things that--you know, I just assumed that it was based on things that, you know, we discussed, and when I talked to the--the sergeant last night, he indicated that he could not discuss it; however, if we wanted to bring it to the Court's attention or discuss it with--you know, with you, that he would make that request, you know, on my behalf or anybody else who wanted to do the same thing, and that was the reason why the request was made.

THE COURT: When you say you feel that the deputies who have been reassigned--and the term is "Reassigned"--I mean, they are still sheriff's deputies and they are still working for us.

JUROR NO. 230: Right.

THE COURT: --what brings you to the conclusion that you feel they have been falsely accused?

JUROR NO. 230: Well, basically because of the allegations that you indicated that had come about and you had to do an investigation.

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

JUROR NO. 230: And the questions that you questioned us about in terms of if we felt discriminated against or if we felt anybody was getting any special favors, or you know, or in terms of certain groups shopping longer than others, those particular questions, and I just personally felt that I needed to state that we have an outstanding staff and you have an outstanding staff. And when we first started, the situation it was hard on everybody. I felt it was hard on everybody. Everybody was complaining day after day about they wanted this, they needed that. If I can't run fifteen miles a day, I'm just going to drop dead, and if--you know, if I don't get my exercise, if I don't eat this, certain types of food, then we get a list of things that we could do and could not do, so you sort of felt institutionalized based on that. But as we got into week after week, the deputies indicated to us that this is not cast in concrete, that we would be making changes along the way. And there are people that make demands, and if they don't get them, then it is just something created in their mind that things are not being fair. And I think that things are exceptionally fair in my sense of understanding, because I thought that when I first came here, I expected it to be a lot worse than it was, and it turned out to be a lot better and it gets better and better as we go, you know, into it. And Deputy "I", Deputy "B" were the disciplinaries in the group. When they said we could not do anything, we could not do it, or if they said we had to contact the Judge, we had to contact the Judge, and--

THE COURT: Was there any specific instance that you can recall where "I" or "B" was the disciplinarian?

JUROR NO. 230: Well, not necessarily--I can't think of anything, per se, your Honor, but in terms of anytime a request would come up about things that just say, shopping, for instance, you know, you want to go to--somebody wants to go to a shopping mall, and Deputy "I" or "B" would say, you know, "Well, we can't do that." "Well, why can't we?" And you know, "It is just because it is out--it is not a controlled environment. We can better control the group if, you know, you go to … or you go to some little store like that versus sending you out in a mall." "Well, can't we talk to the Judge about it?" "Well, yes, if you want to talk to the Judge about it, you can, but basically right now this is something that we cannot do," that type of thing. I can't think of anything verbatim, but in terms of people crying about getting their fingernails done. Well, you know, "There is nothing we can do. We can't allow people to come in here." "Well, you know, I can't continue to go on if I can't get my fingernails done." Well, Deputy "I" would say, "I'm just sorry, there is nothing we can do. I can bring you something in here to take them off or something like that, but basically right now the Judge says we cannot do it." It has gotten to the point we can get our hair done, we can get our fingernails done and there is a lot of other things, but in order to run any type of ship, it takes those type people, I personally feel. And as far as special treatment, I don't think that anybody is getting any more treatment than anybody else. Everything has to go to you, through you, and if there is any special treatment, then you know, the special treatment comes through you, and as far as somebody being able to dial the telephone on their own, then I really want to know who that was because then they got special treatment as far as I was concerned. But it is just something that I felt that needed to be on the record, my personal feelings, that the staff was doing an outstanding job. And Sergeant "J" wanted to know was it something that I felt that was personal, was it something that I felt was--that basically that I think that happened, and after I thought--I don't know what I responded to him, but after I thought about it, it did become personal. We live with these people for over three months. You don't know anything about their personal lives other than if they have children. You know, you don't even know where they live because they say that they can't discuss these things, but you know, "After the trial, if you want to ask me anything, you are more than willing to do so." But you do know that they have, you know, mother, father, you know, sisters, brothers, children, and so you do build up a personal bond and it takes that to, you know, get on running and to make you feel more comfortable in your surroundings, I personally feel. So I just felt that I just needed to, you know, state that. That was all. You know, I don't want to waste the Court's time, but I felt that it was something that I needed to state.

THE COURT: No, no. 230, concerns that you have about this are not a waste of my time.

JUROR NO. 230: Okay.

THE COURT: And I appreciate your having sent me this note, and I am going to talk to the individuals who have indicated they want to talk to me about this.

JUROR NO. 230: Yeah, because I feel that in order for us to even be attentive to what is happening, if you feel something, you know, you have to stress it one way or another.

THE COURT: Well, your note here said that you needed to address this prior to getting started again.

JUROR NO. 230: Right, because it was a concern to me, personally it was a concern, and the sergeant wanted to know if anybody else felt that way, then get the list of numbers and he would, you know, submit it to you, so--but like I said, we can only, you know, go on what we just assume, you know, that happened based on the questions that you addressed us with earlier.

THE COURT: You seem to feel this very strongly.

JUROR NO. 230: Well, because it is factual as far as I'm concerned and I just don't want you to think that these people that you put in this position to assist us, and that is what they were there for, to assist us, not work for us or cater to us, but do make our lives a little bit more livable and to be the liaison between the Court and whoever they reported to and us. You know, we are the workers, and as far as I was concerned, that was the supervision, the sergeant was the manager and you are the chief. And that is just how I looked at it and that is how the chain of command came down, but I just felt that they have done an outstanding job and it is difficult, I don't care what anybody say, to deal with twenty something people, eighteen people, whatever the situation may be right now, and different personalities. You know, we all cannot get what we want when we want it, and you know, I believe if I ask for something and if I can't get it, I will come back again the next time, you know, with a better situation. I believe in building a better mousetrap, whatever it takes. If I can't--and it has happened. Everything that anybody wanted, they have gotten. You know, we are not here to run anything or to individually take over. We have to be in a controlled environment, and that is what everybody really needs to know. And because I told them a long time ago, they need to be locked down at nine o'clock. Everybody should be on lock-down and we won't have any of these problems, but you know--but that is neither here nor there, but that was just my own personal feelings and something that I just needed to state. That is all.

THE COURT: All right. No. 230, any other comment you want to make?

JUROR NO. 230: That is it.

THE COURT: All right. Mr. Cochran.

(Discussion held off the record between the Court, Ms. Clark and Mr. Cochran.)

THE COURT: No. 230, I take it you are the one who actually wrote the initial note; is that correct?

JUROR NO. 230: No, I did not write the initial note, no.

THE COURT: All right. Whose handwriting is this, do you know?

JUROR NO. 230: I think that is--I don't know what her name is, Juror no. 1386.


THE COURT: 1386?

JUROR NO. 230: Yes.

THE COURT: How did this discussion come about to approach the Court about this, approach me about it?

JUROR NO. 230: The sergeant came in and, you know, he always checks--I guess at the end of the day he comes into see how everybody was doing, and at the time he came in and asked, you know, how is everybody doing and nobody really said anything, you know, other than depressed. You had people that were actually literally crying and--in one of the TV rooms because they were so upset about the information that they heard. And when I questioned the sergeant, you know, to talk to him about it, at that particular time he said that if--he said, "230, I cannot discuss it with you, but if you want to discuss it with the Judge," you know, that he will relay that information to him, and he says, "Does anybody else feel that way?" So that is how it came about.

THE COURT: How do you think this will affect your ability to work with all the other jurors?

JUROR NO. 230: I am here to do a job. I have no problems doing my job and I don't want you to think because I feel this way that it will affect me from working with anybody else. It will not. I am here simply because it was on my mind and I felt that it would have affected my job today. I would not have been able to concentrate. When there is something on my mind, I have to be able to get it off, that is just the type person I am, but yes, I will do my job and I will do, you know, like I said, 200 percent or whatever it takes, but--I'm not here to change the Court's decision. I'm not here to try to even, you know, think about that. It is just a matter of it was something that I felt that I personally needed to state. That was all.

THE COURT: All right. But the way you feel about this, will this--I'm talking about later on down the line, when the case is--you know, when you have to make decisions here, is this experience going to affect your ability to be a fair and impartial juror and to work with the other jurors?

JUROR NO. 230: No, it will not.

THE COURT: Okay. All right. No. 230, thank you very much.

JUROR NO. 230: Thank you.

THE COURT: I'm going to direct you not to discuss this with anybody else.

JUROR NO. 230: Okay. Thank you very much.

(Juror no. 230 exits chambers.)

MR. COCHRAN: Can you inquire about the five people crying and of course how they know?

(Discussion held off the record between Mr. Cochran and Mr. Bailey.)

(brief pause.)

MR. COCHRAN: Your Honor, I have not talked with Mr. Simpson. Apparently he needs to talk to me. I need to brief him. May I talk to him?

MR. BAILEY: He's very insistent, your Honor.

MR. COCHRAN: May I do that?

(Discussion held off the record.)

(brief pause.)


THE COURT: All right. Have we got everybody back? All right. Let's get going, guys, or we will never finish this.

(Brief pause.)

THE COURT: Back on the record. Mr. Cochran, you had something you wanted to say. We are back in chambers.

MR. COCHRAN: Thank you very kindly, your Honor, for allowing us a chance--we had not had a chance to speak with Mr. Simpson and he asked me to come back and to indicate the following to the Court. He is extremely upset that he is not able to hear what is happening. He says that when you speak of sequestration, he is the one who is more sequestered of all, and he feels that his rights are being abridged and violated and he feels that his life is virtually on the line and he wants to be present to hear what is happening with these jurors. He specifically has pointed out that there would be no way for anyone to know, the public or the press to know by 8:20, apparently, this morning, he says they were reporting that the jurors were refusing to leave the hotel or were going to protest for today by wearing dark clothing, whatever, for the deputies, if it hadn't been leaked by the deputies, and they were the only ones who were transporting these people, and that is exactly the problem. He says that he would like to be present to see, since his life is on the line in this regard and he wants me to renew the motion. He would like to address the Court in open court to--for himself, asked permission to address you on this issue. That is how strongly he feels. He says that he is in a terrible situation. He sits back there in the lockup, we are in here, and I told him the plan was to go through thirteen jurors and perhaps now really all eighteen at some point, and he wants to again in the strongest possible terms to express to the Court how unfair he thinks it is and he thinks this amounts really to state action. The sheriff's department is releasing information to the press. If the sheriff's department is treating some jurors differently, and he is aware that there is five people who have--apparently have not signed this and thirteen who are--and since people can't discuss this, he asked the logical question. How would these people all know about this, five people in a room crying because all of a sudden "I" isn't there? Obviously if there is an activity going on on Saturday, they are 8000 sheriff's deputies and so somebody else would just step up and do it, unless somebody said or brought this to a halt. It is more than just the questions that were asked, and you know, it is a difficult problem I think for all of us, Judge, because if you have five people saying we feel we are discriminated against, who knows better than those people? The other jurors were not in here when they were talking, and that is the problem. So it is obvious that somebody has said something to these jurors that they would get together and write this note and go in a room crying. And Mr. Simpson just wants to be present to see and hear because he has to hear it from us secondhand. And I told him I would communicate this to you and I would also--he also wants to address the Court directly on this issue.

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

(Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)

MR. COCHRAN: He wanted to make sure--he asked me "What about the other five?" And I told him that I had mentioned this to you at the desk, kind of a side bar at the desk, that I felt that now in view of we are going to talk to thirteen, it is going to exacerbate if we talk to thirteen people and five stay back there and nobody ever talks to the five, and he feels obviously we've got to talk to the five also.

THE COURT: What we are dealing with, first of all, is a request by these thirteen jurors to be heard.

MR. COCHRAN: Sure. I understand that, Judge, and I just wanted to get that as well as the other aspect. His problem is the Court has ruled he cannot be present. He feels he has a right to be present. He says he wants to be present and he wants to personally address the Court on that issue, and before you went any further he asked Mr. Bailey to come in and get us, and so Bailey did that, and I wanted to come in and express that to the Court.

(Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)

MR. COCHRAN: His other concern was this: That he thinks also that it will be unfair to the Defense. I had indicated to him that Mr. Darden had previously asked that these people are transferred and I did and we both did, basically yesterday, that the problem is, and here is how he phrased it, he says in a case where the police--the credibility of the police is being attacked, clearly that you have a situation where you have some jurors lining up with the police, and this is an issue that you and I, Judge, have discussed from the very beginning when I had some concerns about the sheriffs and the Stockholm Syndrome in everyone of those cases. And he says, "Well, look, how will that be?" And that is the last question you asked this juror, how will they be when they are sticking up for the sheriffs deputies in law enforcement who have a lot of control over these people and they do say things to them? The example is about this case lasting until Christmastime and he said June, July and August, doesn't sound so bad, we heard December, maybe we are going to go Christmas shopping. That is a joke. Those are the kind of things that sway with people, so the sheriff's department, good or bad, do everything for these people and so they look to them, you know. And I mean, they talk about our staff. This lady talked about our staff, and that is exactly what we talked about from the beginning. When we talk about our staff, what does that mean? Some people may not see them as our staff, some people do, but I think when you identify with them how do they then come out and vote their conscience in a situation, I think it somewhat strains credulity. So those are the things that he asked us to indicate to the Court.

(Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)

MR. COCHRAN: I think that Mr. Bailey points out correctly that if ever this comes to--suppose you found at the conclusion of this that this--the breach between those jurors is irreconcilable. You know, it is going to be very hard for Simpson to make any kind of informed decision. We have to go back and filter through our notes of what we interpreted in here. As this Court has said, I'm not sure this has ever happened, this area we are in today has ever happened before. You are a cautious man, it seems to me, and nobody loses anything. This Defendant should be present to hear this, and this is so unique, and some Court reviews that, that is going to be an interesting point, because you know, how can they make an informed decision?

MR. DARDEN: Well, the law is pretty clear that this Defendant has no right to be here, and I understand that he is a celebrity Defendant and he feels that the rules ought to be stretched or bent just for him, but the law is the law. And I just point out the law indicates that he has no right to be here while we question these jurors and he shouldn't be allowed to be. So I ask the Court not to change the rules or expand the rules just for Mr. Simpson. As for his request to address the Court, I would object to that. He has seven lawyers seated in a courtroom at any given time. Mr. Cochran and Mr. Shapiro are very eloquent and articulate men and I'm sure they can articulate Mr. Simpson's position to the Court, as they have already. So why don't we just get on with the process of questioning the jurors?

MS. CLARK: Perhaps it may be appropriate to talk to the other five, we have no objection to that, so that they don't feel singled out, and maybe it is appropriate just from the point of view that we want to know how they feel about the situation that has arisen today and how it will affect them. I mean, we don't oppose that, but I mean, I think that we are proposing this legal and proper manner, given the state of the law, and there is no reason to change the law because we have a celebrity Defendant. Proceed as we have and let's get this done and talk to these people. It is not--there is no Stockholm Syndrome going on here. Allegations to that effect are groundless. These jurors feel the way they do about the deputies as people. Let's not forget that this is an LAPD case and these are sheriff deputies that are guarding them, and they know the difference. They indicated they know the difference and clearly it has not had the effect that Mr. Cochran keeps referring to. And I mean, this is another one of those claims that are made that are just simply baseless. This is a personal thing and these jurors feel the way they do. They are entitled to their feelings, but we have to find out what those feelings are and how it will affect them, and we need to do it in a setting that will promote candor and promote comfort for them. And we are all aware of the fact in chambers a couple of jurors have sat down and looked around to see who is listening because they want that feeling of comfort and confidentiality, and without that we are not going to get them to be as forthright and candid. If you bring them out in the open courtroom and sit them there, why, it is bigger and wider, and I don't know where the presence or absence of Mr. Simpson really makes that much difference, as much as the very setting that we are required to be in makes a big difference. They don't have the confidentiality. They feel like they are grilled. They don't have that kind of security to give us the kind of candid responses we need. And we do need them in this situation.

MR. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, when we picked this jury--

THE COURT: Well, your position is you don't care if Simpson is here or not?

MS. CLARK: No. My position is the law does not permit him to be present and I'm asking the Court to stand firm on that.

THE COURT: It is not the law doesn't permit it; it doesn't require it.

MS. CLARK: He does not have a right to be present. He does not have a right to be present. That is the state of the law. The Defense is trying to hold the bludgeon of appellate reversal over the Court's head. Again that is not going to happen because the law clearly favors the Court's position and we ask the Court not to change it because that is the legal and correct position.

MR. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, we are at a unique juncture. Mr. Simpson was present when this jury was picked, outside of the presence of the public, and that in no way inhibited these jurors from hopefully being candid with us and telling us what was going on. And at this juncture we are in a crucial point where we may be raising issues that state action has been involved that will cause us to file a motion for dismissal with prejudice. And our client has to participate in that. This is now probably to date the most crucial part of the proceedings, and to not allow Mr. Simpson to be here, in my opinion, would be abuse of discretion.

MR. COCHRAN: Your Honor, since I would like to conclude by saying this, by saying that nobody has introduced being a celebrity. That is in somebody's mind somebody as introducing a celebrity Defendant. If we had a client who is named John "J", it wouldn't make any difference, we would feel exactly the same thing. It has nothing to do with who he is. The fact he is the Defendant and fighting for his life is perhaps hard to understand that if you haven't defended somebody on this. It is hard to understand that. And I think you understand, as the Judge who sees all of it, how important this is, and the law has been misstated here. We talked about that case that we cited to the Court the other day. The case didn't say he couldn't be present. The Court has the discretion to do that. And what I'm saying, this is so uncharted and so unique and so different, no court has been faced with exactly this situation. And that one case whose name alludes me for the moment--

THE COURT: Garcia?

MS. CLARK: Not sir--

MR. COCHRAN: Siripongs, the Defendant waived the appearance of his lawyer apparently. The question here, Mr. Simpson is asking in very strong term he wants to be present and it is so unique, I mean, even Miss Clark indicates that she is not so worried because she likes this closed setting. Well, I think the Court is imaginative enough, we can do a closed setting. Just imagine this Judge, given this thing as you have indicated how unique, that he is back there, it is his life he is talking about and he can't see or hear anything of this. We have to tell him at breaks what is going on. He wants to be present. He wants to address you. I mean, what is wrong the jurors said--you talk to the jurors. Well, certainly you would hear from the Defendant at the appropriate time and that is all he is asking you to do. Can't say you wouldn't hear from him. That is not part of your style or anything to listen to people and then of course make your decisions. So those are the things that we have asked you to do and I think they seem to be very reasonable. Has nothing to do with any status. Nobody has brought that up at all. We are talking about who this man is and where we are at this time in this particular proceeding given what is happening. He has raised some interesting questions with us and I'm trying to share them with you, which we've already talked about.

MS. CLARK: Let's not forget what the issue is before the Court. The issue is the concerns of sequestered jurors about the removal of certain deputies. This is not a matter of witnesses in the trial. This is not a matter of evidence that is coming in and out. This is not a matter of evidence that may be stricken or suppression motions or any of that. And there is no reason why Mr. Simpson cannot read the transcript, cannot talk to his lawyers. He has a number of them, all of them very good, who can apprise him of the situation. There is nothing that Mr. Simpson would be able to add to what Mr. Cochran, Mr. Shapiro, Mr. Bailey, Mr. Douglas is going to be able to do here. You know, I mean we have some great legal talent here, and we are not talking about that kind of evidence. We are talking about a situation where really we just have to allow the jurors to vent. There isn't even that much inquiry to be made, as we have seen. No. 230, these jurors want to talk to you. We are hearing them. That can be reported back to Mr. Simpson. But there really isn't much interaction going on here.

MR. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, it is much more serious than that. We have stopped the trial--

MR. DARDEN: Again.

MR. SHAPIRO: --in the middle of cross-examination of a crucial witness because in the words of the first juror, she is upset and depressed and cannot continue until she talks about this. What is she upset and depressed about? Who is going to watch them make phone calls, who is going to log in the phone calls, who is going to accompany them to outings and who is going to drive them to and from court. If they are upset about that, certainly this is a crucial area for Mr. Simpson's concern. It certainly is a crucial area for my concern. In 25 years of practice I have never heard anything close to this by a juror coming in and--jury coming in and actually refusing to participate as jurors until they are heard by the Court.

THE COURT: Well, that is something that is reported by the news media, not that I have seen yet.

MR. SHAPIRO: That is what they have said here in their letter.

MR. COCHRAN: No. 230 did tell us she had trouble concentrating today and wanted to get it off her chest. That is the first one. Moreover, Judge, she also told us something else, that five jurors are in a room crying, crying, Judge, literally crying because a sheriff's deputy isn't there any more. I mean, that is--that is incomprehensible, because both sides agreed to the removal, is incomprehensible unless somebody told these people, look, you go and do that. You go, and you know, and inferentially that is what happened. They had to have had the other information, and Judge, it had to be leaked by the sheriff's department.

THE COURT: Counsel, that is not the issue. That is not issue.

MR. COCHRAN: The state action isn't the issue?


MR. COCHRAN: You don't think so?


MR. COCHRAN: What is the issue, your Honor?

MR. DARDEN: The issue now--

THE COURT: The issue is whether or not I should allow your client to be present during this. That is the only real issue. If you--you have raised other issues regarding state action, regarding removal of jurors. I'm sure that this will be folded into that. The only real issue that I am concerned about is whether or not to allow your client to be present. I'm going to ask the back row to step out because I need some more room. Commander, would you invite Deputy Magnera to join us, please.

(Brief pause.)

DEPUTY MAGNERA: Yes, your Honor.

THE COURT: Where is the commander?

DEPUTY MAGNERA: Do you want the commander back?



(Brief pause.)

THE COURT: Commander, does the sheriff's department have--what happened to Magnera?

(Brief pause.)

THE COURT: What happened to Magnera? Does the sheriff's department have a policy regarding in-custody Defendant being in a Judge's chambers for a proceeding?

COMMANDER HOLLAND: Not that I am aware of.

THE COURT: Can you think of any reason why he should--should or should not be present if the bailiff is also present seated next to him?


THE COURT: Or standing over him?

COMMANDER HOLLAND: No. Just as long as there is some security in the court, which includes the chambers, there is no prohibition on that.

THE COURT: How is your client dressed?

MR. COCHRAN: He is dressed.

MR. SHAPIRO: He has got a suit on.

MS. CLARK: I just want you to ask yourself something, Judge. Would you do this for any other Defendant?

THE COURT: I have never been faced with this situation before.

MS. CLARK: Yeah, but--

MR. DARDEN: Think of the precedent you are setting for the rest of this trial.

MS. CLARK: That's right. You know, I mean--I have never heard of anyone ever entertaining a request for--and I have heard it made.

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

MS. CLARK: --for a Defendant to be in chambers ever, ever, an in-custody Defendant.

THE COURT: Miss Clark, I'm trying to balance the intimacy of this setting, which I think we get much more candor out of, when I can talk eyeball to eyeball level with a juror. I agree with you that the issues that we are talking about here have nothing to do with guilt or innocence, which is the criteria that the bright line that the appellate courts have discussed what requires the Defendant's present, issues of guilt or innocence.

MS. CLARK: Right.

MR. COCHRAN: I think this is so inappropriate, Judge, really. Judge, can I say--it does, though, if you stop and think about it, it has to do with triers of fact in a case where a significant number of jurors feel one way, a lesser number would--also significant, because the majority of those are the jurors who disagree are on the jury, feel a different way, and that definitely goes to it, seems to me--Marcia makes the distinction of whether the juror is making a decision based upon whether the sheriff or LAPD. That is no distinction. The question will be is how do we feel about law enforcement ultimately? Will they have the strength and the fortitude to make a decision at some point in this case? And I see--

THE COURT: No, Mr. Cochran, that is an issue that is interesting to discuss, but I'm interested in precedent not only for this case, but others. I was interested in whether or not the sheriff's department had a policy, which apparently they do not. I am interested in, it seems to me, that given the, quote-unquote, impairment of these jurors, this may not be the last of these discussions with jurors, so we may be doing this often.

MR. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, you are--I'm sorry.

THE COURT: I'm also contemplating whether or not being out in the courtroom would be an appropriate setting, rather than in chambers.

MR. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, just one comment. If you talk about precedent, we have a commander from the sheriffs here who is not a party to this case, not a party to this jury and he is present. I mean, at least if there is some--any appearance of fairness for Mr. Simpson, Mr. Simpson, just for that reason alone should be present if a commander is going to be here.

MR. DARDEN: You know what the main problem with this case is and with the investigation and with how it has been tried and everything else, is that the system has bent over backwards for this one Defendant. All the rules have been broken and changed. The jail has been--parts of the jail have been reconstructed just for this Defendant and we have bent over backwards.

MS. CLARK: Shut the lab down, let them come into a Saturday to examine. I mean, I have never seen anything like it.

MR. COCHRAN: That has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

MS. CLARK: We are getting to the outermost reaches. They give an inch, they take a mile. The more you give, the more they are going to command. It is not that we have an interest in depriving the Defendant of any rights. Quite the contrary. But to create new rights and new entitlements for one celebrity Defendant seems unfair to both--to all the other defendants who will never be allowed to sit in chambers and listen to jurors and unfair to the people of the state of California where we create a new situation just for him.


MS. CLARK: And what do they ask for next?

THE COURT: All right. In balancing the interests that are involved here, in balancing the candor that is encouraged by being in chambers, this court has never invited a Defendant into chambers before and I don't believe that to be appropriate course of action in this case either. We are talking about complaints that the jurors have with regards to their condition, the sequestration and the manner in which that is managed. That does not go to the guilt or innocence of this particular Defendant. So the request to be previous is again denied. All right. Let's have Juror no. 984.

(Brief pause.)

MR. COCHRAN: Are you going to inquire about the five crying?

MR. SHAPIRO: Judge, would you also consider asking the jurors how they would feel about civilians taking over the responsibility, except for transportation?

THE COURT: Well, their opinion is irrelevant.

MR. SHAPIRO: It apparently is relevant because they are coming in here having a blue flu and not participating.

(Juror no. 984 enters chambers.)

THE CLERK: Juror no. 984.

JUROR NO. 984: Good morning.

THE COURT: How are you?

JUROR NO. 984: Well, I will be okay.

THE COURT: What is the problem, 984? I got your note here.

JUROR NO. 984: Uh-huh.

THE COURT: And I want to again reemphasize the fact that anytime that you feel you need to talk to me about something, you are welcome to write me a note and communicate with me, and obviously this is a serious problem. Can you tell me what is on your mind?

JUROR NO. 984: Well, what is on my mind is I just--the other day when we talk--first for the record, I guess I would say, I had got the numbers mixed up on the gentleman that sits behind me. I think I said 247.

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

JUROR NO. 984: But that is not his number. His number is I think 1489, I think.


JUROR NO. 984: His number.

THE COURT: I remember the incident you talked about.

JUROR NO. 984: Yeah.


JUROR NO. 984: Okay. I don't know. What bothers me is that you had mentioned something like special treatment from the deputies or--

THE COURT: I had asked about it, yeah.

JUROR NO. 984: Yeah, yeah, and there had been no type of special treatment from any of those deputies, and that is what I'm thinking that may have happened, why they had been, you know, moved someplace else or something.

THE COURT: What leads you to that conclusion? Did anybody suggestion anything like that to you?

JUROR NO. 984: No, no, just from talking to you and then all of a sudden they were gone, you know, just--and I know that a few of the other jurors had had, you know, not so much words with them or just didn't like some of their ways of doing things, or you know, like for instance when "B" first brought up the schedule, scheduling for the TV rooms, there was a big--I shouldn't say big, it wasn't all blown out, but people were just dissatisfied. A couple of jurors were just, you know, dissatisfied that things weren't going, you know, their way, and like you know, people were I guess, you know, evidently getting special treatment other than--you know, than they were. They weren't getting something that all of us don't get, you know. We all--as a whole we all do everything together.

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

JUROR NO. 984: Now, when the couple jurors that I have in mind, when they don't participate in something, it is because of their own doing, you know. They stay in their room, and so when we come up with an idea to go someplace or do something they figure that they have been left out, you know. So I just think that "B", "A" and "I" got a raw deal, I really do, and I would really appreciate it if--they may not be able to come back, but you know, every now and then I would like to see them because they were a part of my everyday routine, you know.

THE COURT: Uh-huh. Was this discussed amongst any groups of jurors last night?

JUROR NO. 984: Well, we all had our feelings. I'm not going to say that it wasn't. Deputy--Sergeant "J" came in and we all just expressed that we felt that we wanted to talk to you.

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

JUROR NO. 984: You know.

THE COURT: I was told that there was a group in the TV room that was unhappy about this last night.

JUROR NO. 984: The majority of the people you are going to talk to today, but you know, it wasn't like a big discussion. We had a couple jurors that were really crying.

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

JUROR NO. 984: You know, just upset. I went on to the gym and just worked out, you know, so I don't know if they were--if they were discussing anything or anything to that nature, but they were--we are were all in there.

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

JUROR NO. 984: Yeah.

THE COURT: So it is sort of an assumption you are making that is the reason that this has happened?

JUROR NO. 984: Yeah, just I know--you know, from the conversation that we had the other day and then from--you know, noticing little things at the hotel, you know, little things like, you know. You had an incident one day. I was in my room so I couldn't really say who he was talking to, so I don't know, but I know that, what did I say--1489, Juror no. 1489--

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

JUROR NO. 984: --was in the hall discussing about some movies and so then the next day one of the jurors told me, I can't think of her number now, the little girl, 1492, said that he was out fussing about "A" about some movies that he didn't get to see because they weren't back--the people up front got to see the movies or something, that is hearsay, but I didn't see it, but I heard the elevator voice, but I didn't know what they were discussing because I go to bed at eight o'clock, 8:30 I'm in my room, so a lot of things I don't see--I don't get around to noticing. But I just--you know, those three deputies were really--you know, who were helpful to me during my two crises, and you know, I just feel like they should be there.

THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Cochran, Miss Clark, any notes?

MR. COCHRAN: Yes, your Honor.

(Brief pause.) (Discussion held off the record between the Court, Mr. Darden and Mr. Cochran.)

THE COURT: 984, is there anything about this situation that will affect your ability to render a fair and impartial verdict in this case?

JUROR NO. 984: Oh, that doesn't have anything to do with how I feel about that. Yes, I can still do my job. Yeah, that doesn't have anything to do with that.

THE COURT: All right. You seem to feel very strongly about this.

JUROR NO. 984: I do. I really do.

THE COURT: Okay. My guess is that you made this--the determination that this was done because of the issues that we talked about earlier in the week?

JUROR NO. 984: Yes, but you know, what we talked about the other day.

THE COURT: All right. Did any of the sheriff's deputies mention to you what happened or why it happened?

JUROR NO. 984: No, no. Yesterday evening when we were downstairs, you know, to go upstairs to the fifth floor, I asked "J"--I said, "Where is "I"?" Because yesterday when Deirdra came to get us--and you know, I just missed and I thought maybe they were on a mission or something doing something else, and I asked Deputy "J", "Where is "I?" And he said, "Well, she won't be working here any more," you know, and then that was it, you know, and I just--but they didn't--no one mentioned anything like that.

THE COURT: I want you to listen to me very carefully. Do not speculate as to the reasons behind any of the changes.

JUROR NO. 984: Okay.

THE COURT: All right. But I'm also going to direct you not to discuss this with anybody else?

JUROR NO. 984: That is true.


JUROR NO. 984: Umm, but if there is going to be any other changes like that like, our everyday thing, can you, you know, give us some idea of what is going on, or you know, say, well, look, I'm going to change these people, because we get used to people, you know.

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

JUROR NO. 984: And you know, kind of give us some idea what is going on.

THE COURT: Okay. All right. Thank you very much, 984.

JUROR NO. 984: Okay. Thank you.

(Juror no. 984 exits chambers.)

THE COURT: And juror 984 has left, but I noted at the end of that discussion she was about to break into tears, which is why I stopped the conversation.

(Brief pause.)

(discussion held off the record.)

THE CLERK: Juror 2457.

THE COURT: All right.

(Juror no. 2457 enters chambers.)

THE COURT: 2457, good morning. How are you today?

JUROR NO. 2457: Fine, thank you.

THE COURT: Good. Can you tell me how you are feeling about the situation over with the sheriffs?

JUROR NO. 2457: I don't feel very good at all.

THE COURT: Tell me why.

JUROR NO. 2457: Because I don't see where they have done anything wrong and I don't understand why just two or three people can have such a voice and do something like that.

THE COURT: Okay. Tell me about--first of all, how did you find out about the changes in the personnel?

JUROR NO. 2457: How did I find out about the changes in the personnel?


JUROR NO. 2457: I didn't really find out. I just--I observed that this one wasn't over there and this one wasn't over there and I put two and two together.

THE COURT: All right. Was this discussed among the jurors last night?

JUROR NO. 2457: No.

THE COURT: I understand that there was a group in the TV room that was discussing this. Do you know anything about that?

JUROR NO. 2457: Well, I left early and went in, but there were a bunch in the TV room.

THE COURT: Did any of the sheriff's deputies mention to you the reason why this has happened?

JUROR NO. 2457: No, they wouldn't talk.

THE COURT: All right. And what is your--what is your opinion at this time as to why this has happened?

JUROR NO. 2457: I beg your pardon?

THE COURT: What is your opinion as to why this has happened?

JUROR NO. 2457: Well, from what I can understand, and the way it has been going all along, there is two, three people that seems to have difficulty, saying that they can do this on this end and they can do that--they can't do it on the other end, and you know, things like that, but that is their own fault. On the far end, seem like they--that is their room. On the other end, that is the other group's room. It is just about four stays on one end and the other group stays on the other end, as if they don't want to mingle. They are too loud on this end, they want quiet, and you know all--it is just--just a mess.

THE COURT: What do you think I ought to do about this?

JUROR NO. 2457: I really couldn't say. That is not for me to say.

THE COURT: But I would be delighted to hear your suggestions, if you have any?

JUROR NO. 2457: Okay. There is the supposed to be Juror no. 165, he always have something to say about way back yonder in 1922. That is his conversation about prejudice and stuff like that. That is wrong. Him and I are the same age, but I don't feel like that. I don't look at what happened when I was a kid coming up. I'm living for today, not the past tense.

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

JUROR NO. 2457: But this is what he is living in, in the past. That is wrong. Now, he is supposed to be a Juror no. 165. Okay. There is the other one. He is supposed to be a Juror no. 1489. He is telling the younger ones that is over on that end what to say and how to maneuver. All that is wrong. I don't see that this should be done like that.

THE COURT: Uh-huh. When you say he is supposed to be a Juror no. 1489, which juror--the first one was 165, correct, the older gentleman?

JUROR NO. 2457: That is 165.

THE COURT: Okay. Who is the other one?

JUROR NO. 2457: The other one is--I don't know his number, but it is the other man with the thing here, (indicating).


JUROR NO. 2457: Yes, and the bald spot up there, (indicating).

THE COURT: Okay. 1489, seat no. 10.


JUROR NO. 2457: I don't know what seat he is in.

THE COURT: Okay. Okay. There are two groups. One like to have quiet movies, and the other one likes to talk during the movies?

JUROR NO. 2457: No, not really talk. I will put it to you this way: On this end is the lively bunch. They do things, say things to keep things moving, to keep you from feeling sad, you know, and things like that, just keep laughing and talking, you know, and on that end, over on the other end, they sets there and they wants to be, (indicating), like that.

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

JUROR NO. 2457: In the position that we are in now, you have to do things to keep you going, laughing, something to make you laugh. This is helping you forget that you are in here. But they don't seem to feel that way. Like when we going somewhere, we will laugh and talk. "You all too loud" if they are in the van with us. Just complain, complain, complain, instead of trying to just all--the whole group just try to get along.

THE COURT: Uh-huh. Well, the problem is, you know, we replaced and transferred some of the sheriff's deputies.

JUROR NO. 2457: Yes.

THE COURT: How do you feel about that?

JUROR NO. 2457: Really and truly, I don't see anything. Why? I don't understand it. That is the whole thing about it. Okay. All the one that I know of, I don't know them all by name, but the ones that I do know by name, they have tried to go along with us. They try to help us.

If we ask them to--can we get somebody in to do the nails, she will go out of her way to get some of her associates or her friends or somebody to come in to see about taking care of us for our nails and things like that, or our hair or whatever, so I mean, this is doing us a favor. And all of that bunch on the other end, they don't want no nails, they don't want anything like that. When the lady came in to give us the massage and stuff like that, none of them didn't go. It is just the ones on the far end. We like those kind of things. All this is helping us.

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

JUROR NO. 2457: But not them.

THE COURT: When you said that the taller gentleman with the balding spot and the beard was telling the young jurors what to say--

JUROR NO. 2457: Now, that is me saying this.

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

JUROR NO. 2457: He talk to the young child, umm, what is her number, 453, I think it is--

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

JUROR NO. 2457: --she sticks over in that crowd with them and he look like he tells her different things, and you know, he pushes her up to say things. That is me, my belief.

THE COURT: Have you ever heard anything directly yourself?

JUROR NO. 2457: Well, I'm in between them. They will take me on either end. They will accept me on either end because I don't have nothing to say. I just sit there and listen. And I have seen them talking, but to say word for word, I can't say.

THE COURT: Do you know the topic of what they were talking about?

JUROR NO. 2457: (No audible response.)

THE COURT: Or as best you can recollect what was said?

JUROR NO. 2457: Well, one time they were talking about they were doing more--for instance, like the movie, "B" was bringing in the movies. He would say the movie had to be shown on this end first. After the movie is shown on that end, then you will take it to the other end and show it. That was fine. They didn't like that on that end. But okay, now if you getting along fine, why not--they are showing the movie on this end, why didn't we all look at the movie? This is the way I see it. I mean, hey, just all of us just go in this room and look at this movie now if we want to see it now. But they had an argument on that end. They got to complain about "The ones on this end gets the movies first, how come we can't get them first," children stuff, just plain old children, and all of us are supposed to be grown. They are younger ones but still we are all grown.

THE COURT: Uh-huh. Was there anything else that this other juror was telling the younger juror, 453, to do?

JUROR NO. 2457: Umm, like I said, I don't be knowing exactly how it be going down. Like I said, I hear and don't hear.

THE COURT: Okay. I appreciate your taking the time to talk to us about this again, and I want you to understand that at any time, you know, my comment to you yesterday--

JUROR NO. 2457: Yes.

THE COURT: --that I was happy to talk to anybody who wanted to talk to me, that obviously still stands.

JUROR NO. 2457: Sure.

THE COURT: Is there anything about this experience that you think will cause you to have difficulty in being a fair and impartial juror in this case?

JUROR NO. 2457: No.

THE COURT: All right. Is there anything about the problems that we've had that would cause you to identify with either--or favor either the Prosecution or the Defense in this case because of your dealings with the sheriff?

JUROR NO. 2457: No.

THE COURT: All right. Anything else you want to tell me?

JUROR NO. 2457: No.

THE COURT: All right.

JUROR NO. 2457: Like I said, they takes me on either side; I'm in between.

THE COURT: I understand.

JUROR NO. 2457: I can mix with this side and I can mix with that side.

THE COURT: All right. 2457, thank you very much for coming in.

JUROR NO. 2457: Thank you.

THE COURT: And don't discuss this with anybody else.

JUROR NO. 2457: I won't.

THE COURT: 1492, please.

(Brief pause.)

(Juror no. 2457 exits chambers.)

THE COURT: Just so the record is clear, I'm calling the jurors in in order--in the order on the letter from the jury dated April 20th.

MR. COCHRAN: Who is Juror no. 1386?

THE COURT: 1386.

MR. COCHRAN: That is blond lady who wrote you before?


(Brief pause.)

THE COURT: Commander, I would say it is safe to say we are not going get to the sheriff's deputies this afternoon.

COMMANDER HOLLAND: Okay. I will let them know.


(Brief pause.)

THE CLERK: Juror 1492.

(Juror no. 1492 enters chambers.)

THE COURT: 1492, how are you? Come on in. Sit down.

JUROR NO. 1492: Good morning.

THE COURT: I can tell by the look on your face you are just okay.

JUROR NO. 1492: It is really okay.

THE COURT: What is up?

JUROR NO. 1492: Well, I wasn't pleased with the decision about the deputies.

THE COURT: Tell me one.

JUROR NO. 1492: For one, I'm probably going to need some tissue.

THE CLERK: On your desk, Judge.

JUROR NO. 1492: Deputy "A" was really the only deputy I felt comfortable talking about anything, you know, discussing the problems that I had, and you know, personal, work-related. He really went out of his way to try to comfort me. Deputy "I", she is the only deputy that cried with me with the death of my family. She even teared up when I thought I was losing my job due to a layoff.

I just--it just didn't seem right to me that they were gone like that and I really didn't have a say so, you know. Then after talking to you day before yesterday, I really thought about the questions you had asked, and there was more than that that I wanted to talk about, because more had been building up. I don't know, a few things that I didn't think were so serious at the time, but the more I talked, you know, thought about it, it came to my mind that maybe they were an issue that should have been brought up and I didn't do it.

THE COURT: What is that?

JUROR NO. 1492: There were a lot of incidents that I've listened to people say a lot of negative things about other people. I have listened to one juror call a deputy a bastard and for no reason at all to me. There was--Deputy "B". We were loading the elevator one morning on our way to court and they take two groups down at a time. I happened to be on the first group in that elevator, and he asked--when we got down to the bottom level, he asked Deputy "L" could he open the vans up, both of the vans, while he went back up to the next group of jurors. This juror, you know, said, "Them damn bastards been telling me what to do all my life," you know. That really got to me, but I kind of let it slide by and tried to ignore it.

THE COURT: Who said this?

JUROR NO. 1492: 165.

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

JUROR NO. 1492: On many other occasions I've heard him say similar things. I know once when I was coming back from dinner we used to line up for the phone, and you know, people will say, "Well, can you add my name to the list?" Juror no. 19 asked me to do this one night and I told him, "Okay," and 165 overheard that and he asked me, "Do you love him?" I'm like, "What?" "Do you love him? Don't be a hypocrite because I've watched him go and talk to"--I don't know the juror's number, Juror no. 602 or Juror no. 602, the male juror that is gone now, "And I see him go over there and talk to him after he finished talking, talking to us," but I'm thinking this man is just paranoid. And I told him, you know, I didn't love him more than I loved anybody else on that jury. There is--I have listened to one--during our first weeks here, ……… …………………………

(Proceedings held in camera, not included in released order of transcript.)

And then I started thinking about the questions you asked about the trips to the stores and about the favoritism. Like I said, I requested that we go to Ross and I requested that we go to … I requested that we went to Newbury's and I felt, you know, if it was favoritism, was it favoritism toward me? I didn't think so. I think--

THE COURT: What deputy was handling your group?

JUROR NO. 1492: Every time I've asked to go somewhere, I went through "H" or "I".

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

JUROR NO. 1492: They always came through with it. And the ..., I stayed the longest in ... For when I had wrote a check and their system was down, so I was the hold-up in ... I guess. It took a long time for me to get out of there and I still needed to get things from …, so they let me go to … it just happened to be a group of us, you know, that one group stayed behind, another group went ahead. I didn't think it was a problem. But you can overhear them, you know. Every time we do something certain people have certain things to say. And I try to always let it slide and right now I'm about tired of it. I've gotten into a van--a van that I hate to get into because you see nothing but a bunch of sad faces. When I got in the van, we were on the way to the … game. I was the first one to get in this van and it is the van certain people generally ride in, and as soon as ... Walked up, it is, "Oh, shit" that I'm sitting there in the front seat. I let that slide. Once at a lunch I'm sitting down--I get tired of getting the negative comments. I have my CD player and I have my headphones--I had the music wrapped around my neck. They got mad about it and wanted me to turn it down. I knew it couldn't be that loud because it was coming through the headphones, it can only get so loud. And the next thing you hear 453 and 165, you know, "It is ignorance," and you know, "That is what is wrong with black people today." I tuned that out. Now, I don't think I was the only person that heard this because I was sitting down talking to another juror. It is just many occasions that they have come up with such stories, and I don't know if it is a figment of their imagination or if it is real, but I don't know how it can go on.

THE COURT: Do you feel that it was unfair for these sheriff's deputies to be reassigned?

JUROR NO. 1492: Somewhat, yes.

THE COURT: When you say "Somewhat," yes?

JUROR NO. 1492: Do I think it was unfair? Yeah, I really believe that they didn't do anything wrong.

THE COURT: Okay. Any other reason?

JUROR NO. 1492: No, that is all.

THE COURT: Okay. Anything else you want to tell me?

JUROR NO. 1492: No, that is it.

THE COURT: Okay. This--did you discuss this with any of the other jurors last night, the change of the deputies?

JUROR NO. 1492: Well, no. Last night, once I heard, I was very upset. Like I said, me and Deputy "A", we were somewhat close, because I did feel comfortable talking to him. I had tears coming out of my eyes and they saw how upset I was and they were, "What's wrong?" And I'm like, you know, "I'm upset over the deputies being gone," but no, we didn't go into it. We kind of left it at that.

THE COURT: All right. Is there anything about this experience that is going to cause you to be an unfair juror?

JUROR NO. 1492: No.

THE COURT: Is there anything that might cause you to favor one side over the other because of what has just happened?

JUROR NO. 1492: No.

THE COURT: Okay. All right.

MR. COCHRAN: May we approach?

(Discussion held off the record between the Court, Ms. Clark and Mr. Cochran.)

THE COURT: 1492, is there anything about this situation that you think will make it difficult for you to get along with these other jurors? I mean, obviously there is some--

JUROR NO. 1492: There is some friction, but I keep my distance, but I am--I can do my job.

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

JUROR NO. 1492: You know, it is up to them to do theirs.

THE COURT: All right. This morning over in the jury room, is there anything discussion about this?

JUROR NO. 1492: No. Kind of quite it.

THE COURT: Okay. All right. 1492, I'm going to order you not to discuss this issue--

JUROR NO. 1492: Uh-huh.

THE COURT: --that we have just talked about here. And I want you to understand that anytime you feel something is necessary to talk to me about, you are welcome to do so, and that is why we stopped the trial again because I wanted to talk to you all who indicated this to me. All right. Thank you very much.

JUROR NO. 1492: Thank you.

(Juror no. 1492 exits chambers.)

THE CLERK: Juror 1290.

(Juror no. 1290 enters chambers. )

THE COURT: Juror no. 1290, how are you?

JUROR NO. 1290: Fine, thank you.

THE COURT: Something you need to talk to me about?

JUROR NO. 1290: Yeah. I happened to be one person that is very upset about the loss of the deputies--

THE COURT: Tell me why.

JUROR NO. 1290: --at the hotel. Well, it seems like the best of the bunch have been removed. In other words, the most amiable, friendly ones that we could talk to, and you know, joke with a little bit, that, you know, seemed to be understanding and willing to help us the most are the ones that have been removed and it is just kind of upsetting.

THE COURT: Uh-huh. How did this come to your attention that these deputies had been reassigned?

JUROR NO. 1290: We asked. We missed them yesterday, and when we went back, we asked one of the deputies, "Where is "B", "I?" And he said, "They won't be here any longer."

THE COURT: Who did you ask?

JUROR NO. 1290: Umm, I think it was Deputy "N" or "O".


JUROR NO. 1290: The two were together. They just said, "They won't be here" and he said, "I can't say anything further than that."

THE COURT: Uh-huh. Was there any discussion among the jurors last night about this?

JUROR NO. 1290: Not anything specifically. We said--we just said we felt bad and we want to let the Judge know how we feel. We didn't do anything other than that. Then one of the gals wrote you a note, I guess, and we just all signed it. That was basically it.

THE COURT: What discussion was there about this issue this morning?

JUROR NO. 1290: (No audible response.)

THE COURT: At breakfast or on the bus over?

JUROR NO. 1290: On the bus over, I don't think anybody said anything. It was kind of a glum trip. But last night we spoke a little bit. Felt like we had to say something and make a statement. That is basically it. We didn't--we didn't know any details, you know, the whys or wherefores about it all, but just wanted to let you know how we felt about it.

THE COURT: Uh-huh. Do you think it was unfair for me to reassign these deputies?

JUROR NO. 1290: Well, of course I don't know the reason. You know, again I don't know what is behind it, and I'm sure you did it for a good reason. I don't think you would do something like this just, you know, for laughs, but I basically just wanted to, you know, say how I felt about it.

THE COURT: All right. Do you think that any of those deputies did anything to warrant being reassigned?

JUROR NO. 1290: No, nothing that I could see. Of course I wasn't around every deputy all the time.

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

JUROR NO. 1290: But no, I surely don't.

THE COURT: All right. Is there anything about this latest wrinkle that would cause you to be unfair to either side here?

JUROR NO. 1290: Oh, no, no. That is aside the case. I mean aside from.

THE COURT: Okay. Is there anything about this situation that might make it difficult for you to work with any of the other jurors?

JUROR NO. 1290: No, although, you know, I do--I do remember hearing complaints by certain jurors about at least one of these deputies.

THE COURT: What complaint?

JUROR NO. 1290: Grumbling about it.

THE COURT: Tell me about that.

JUROR NO. 1290: In fact, it had happened when Sergeant "J" was there, about "A". Sergeant "J" was in the--what room was it? I guess the upstairs room where we have--I don't know if it was there or in the deliberation room.

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

JUROR NO. 1290: When 1489, 462 and I think maybe a couple more jurors chimed in saying something about his attitude and that he had closed a certain room. 1427 popped up and explained why that room had been closed, and Sergeant "J" was there hearing all of this, of course, so I know there have been complaints about "A" at least.

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

JUROR NO. 1290: And of course I'm kind of putting two and two together, but don't really know.

THE COURT: Well, you are not to speculate as to why this is happening.

JUROR NO. 1290: No, no, I'm trying not to.

THE COURT: All right.

JUROR NO. 1290: No. As far as the case to me is a separate issue, but I just wanted to let you know how I felt about that--that happening.

THE COURT: Was there any discussion about jurors today wearing dark Ilothing in the court or anything like that?

JUROR NO. 1290: Yes. We were going to wear our … … … today.

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

JUROR NO. 1290: And we just felt so down last night, I think somebody said, "Let's just wear black instead." I mean, there was no big discussion about it. And some of us did and some of us didn't, obviously, but that is it.


(Brief pause.)

THE COURT: That would have been interesting to see all of you in there wearing … … T-shirts.

JUROR NO. 1290: We did get permission from a deputy.

(Brief pause.)

THE COURT: Last night did you notice any--that any of the jurors were particularly upset about this?

JUROR NO. 1290: Yes.

THE COURT: Tell me about that.

JUROR NO. 1290: 1492 was crying and I noticed the other deputies themselves being very glum, like they are afraid to, you know, say anything to us or--of course, we knew they don't discuss it. We didn't try to get them to discuss it. I would say 1492 in particular was very upset. A couple of jurors went and changed into their sweats and went in to exercise, a couple of jurors that ordinarily don't at that time of day, and people, grumpy, sad faces, this type of thing mostly.

THE COURT: Is there any--do you sense any--any build-up of animosity between any of the jurors because of complaints made about these deputies who have been reassigned?

JUROR NO. 1290: I think so. It is probably capped, something that was already there, and I don't hear any big discussion about it, it is just people are grumpy and sad and upset more than anything, I think.

THE COURT: Okay. No. 1290, I'm going to order you not to speculate as to any of the reasons why any of this has happened. Also, you are not to discuss this with anybody else, but I appreciate your wanting to speak to me at any time. As I indicated, anytime you think you need to talk to me, you are welcome to just pass a note and I will get to you.

JUROR NO. 1290: Okay.

THE COURT: Thanks a lot.

(Brief pause.)

(Juror no. 1290 exits chambers.)

(discussion held off the record.)


THE COURT: Let's go back on the record. Before I bring the next one in, I wanted to make an observation for the record. 1492, as she came in, needed a tissue and proceeded to cry during the entire commentary. And I did not make that observation for the record because my diligent staff, Miss Robertson, went and got the next juror before I could make that observation for the record.

(Juror no. 1427 enters chambers.)

THE CLERK: 1427.

THE COURT: Hi, 1427. How are you today?

JUROR NO. 1427: Fine. How are you?

THE COURT: Have a seat. I understand that there's some concern amongst the jurors concerning the change in personnel.

JUROR NO. 1427: Yes, there is.

THE COURT: Tell me about that.

JUROR NO. 1427: First, I'm going to start off--I hope you don't mind me reading from my notes. I prepared something.


JUROR NO. 1427: I think it's real important that I present to your attention the circumstances surrounding an incident that involved one of the deputies and some of the jurors. On Friday night, March 21st--March 24th--I'm sorry--probably 10:00 P.M., we had I recall four deputies working the night shift. I along with jurors no. 63, 1489--I am sorry--1492 and others were sitting in the back TV room watching the taping of Melrose Place. 10 minutes into taping, juror 1233 walked in and asked if she could be taken down to the steam room on the 4th floor gym. Deputy "A" replied that he was short of deputies, he only had four deputies that night and that he would try and accommodate her as soon as he could spare a deputy. She replied in an angry tone of voice, saying something to the effect that the gym should always be made available to us. She was referring to the gym on the 4th floor, and she walked off a little upset. Deputy "A" then asked us in the TV room if we would mind if he closed down that TV room and took the program that we were watching to the front TV room. This way, he would be able to watch two rooms at once, meaning the front TV room and the gym on the 5th floor because they need someone to watch that gym as well because someone was in there using it. And he proceeded to close down a card room and I believe he might have closed down the phone room in the back so he could go to the front. So we all said okay. So we moved to the front TV room. We started watching our program. Then juror 1489 walks in and tells Deputy "A", "I thought you guys were going to close this TV room down." Deputy "A" explained to him that he simply transferred a movie from the rear TV room to the front room so this way, he could watch two rooms at once and enable jurors to use the 4th floor gym and steam room. 1489 again said, "Well, I don't understand why you guys say you're going to close down this TV room and then you don't close it down." Then Deputy "A" again explained the situation for a second time to 1489, and again, 1489 stated he did not understand why first the deputies say they're going to do something and then they turn around and do another thing. So after this incident on March 27th, Sergeant "J" spoke to the entire jury in the small deliberation room. He laid down some groundrules on how the TV room situation and the gym hours were going to be handled from now on. At that time, juror 1489 brought up the TV room incident with "A" implying that he was not acting fair, and 1233 also complained about the availability of the 4th floor gym and the steam room. At that point, I raised my hand and pointed out to Sergeant "J" that I had heard and seen what had actually happened, and in my eyes, Deputy "A" was simply doing the best to accommodate everyone he could. As soon as I finished expressing my opinion, ex juror 462 raised her hand and said something to the effect, "Well, I don't like the tone of voice Deputy "A" uses when he addresses me."

And, your Honor, I just feel that I--since I've been here, I've never been disrespected, favored nor catered to by any of the deputies nor have I witnessed anything of the sort with regards to other jurors and I believe there is a perception problem among some of the jurors who are making allegations. I have observed the behavior of jurors 1489, 1233, 165 and 453 for three months now and I have seen them disrespect the deputies, other jurors and myself at one point or another. And I don't really care what these people say or do to me personally, but I think it is unfair for them to scrutinize the deputies because their jobs, their careers and their livelihood are on the line. And that's why I felt I had to speak up today, because I think it is very unfair that they be put in this type of situation, and I kind of figured out that complaints had been made against deputies "B", "I" and "A" from the questions you were asking us a couple of days ago and it was just coincidental that suddenly these deputies disappear the day following the individual juror meetings that we had. So that's really all I wanted to say.

THE COURT: All right. Last night, was there any discussion that you are aware of regarding the disappearance or the reassignment of these three deputies?

JUROR NO. 1427: No. I remember somebody asked, oh, where's "I" or "B" because we noticed their absence. Then a deputy said, "Well, they're not going to be working here anymore," and that's all the deputy said. And we just looked at each other and we felt--I don't know. We just felt really upset because so many changes are made and we had grown accustomed to these deputies and it seems like we never know what's going on. I feel--personally, I feel like I'm at the mercy and other people are at the mercy of the whim of select individuals who complain about things like this.

THE COURT: Do you see any problems given this situation in being a fair and impartial juror in this case?

JUROR NO. 1427: No. I have nothing against anybody here. I just want--I'm not here to make friends or enemies. I'm just here to do my job and that's what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to stay out of conflict as much as possible and I'm trying to just keep to myself as much as I can.

THE COURT: All right. I notice you're wearing dark clothing today. Is that on purpose or for a reason?

JUROR NO. 1427: Well, we--before all this came about yesterday, we were talking about wearing our ******************* T-shirts. And after we found out the deputies were taken away, we just decided not to wear them and, you know, somebody--I remember overhearing someone said something to the effect that, you know, "I feel like I'm in mourning," and I just--I just--I just happen to be dressed in black and I just feel like it's a sad situation and that's why I'm dressed the way I am.

THE COURT: This morning, was there any discussion on the van coming over or in the jury room this morning about these incidents?

JUROR NO. 1427: No. Not--no. Everyone was really quiet and sad.

THE COURT: Did you see any of the jurors in the TV room last night upset about this?

JUROR NO. 1427: I walked in and you could just tell that people's spirits were kind of low. You could just tell from their demeanor that they were a little upset.

THE COURT: Okay. Well, it seems to me since you've written out this note that it's more than being just a little upset.

JUROR NO. 1427: Well, yeah. After, you know--after I saw that the deputies were taken away, I just feel that I have to speak up now and say something because this might go on the record of the deputies. This might make them look bad in the eyes of their superiors, and it's not fair that nobody speak up when they see that something's--they feel that something is wrong, and I feel something is definitely wrong here.

THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Cochran? Mr. Darden?

MR. DARDEN: No questions.

THE COURT: 1427, thank you very much. I'm going to order you not to speculate as to why these changes have been made. Don't discuss this with anyone else.

MR. COCHRAN: Can we have a sidebar?

THE COURT: Hold on. Don't go away.

(Discussion between the Court, Ms. Clark and Mr. Cochran.)

THE COURT: Has there been, since this reassignment of the deputies, either at the evening meal or during any of the television watching last night, any interaction between the--amongst the jurors, anybody--any groups separating themselves from this discussion?

JUROR NO. 1427: Everybody was scattered all over the place. Some people were in the phone room, some people were watching the movie, some people were working out in the gym and some people were in their rooms. I mean just the same as every other day.

THE COURT: Do you think that this reassignment is causing additional tension amongst the jurors?

JUROR NO. 1427: I think it makes us feel very uneasy because I feel like I'm--like I said before, anything could be said against me or anyone else here and it could be untrue, and yet we're going to be put under scrutiny in the future; and I just want to make sure that you know that there's a trend here in the type of behavior I see among certain jurors, and it's been occurring since the beginning and it's just building up and I--

THE COURT: You mentioned when we talked--I don't recall if it was yesterday or the day before, but you mentioned something about an incident in the elevator with 1489.

JUROR NO. 1427: Uh-huh.

THE COURT: Sort of shoving you in the elevator a number of times. Has anything like that occurred since that incident?

JUROR NO. 1427: This morning, he--he got right next to me. He wedged himself between me and another person in the elevator. And this morning, I noticed when Deirdra walked into the jury room and she said, "Do you people feel you need to speak to the Judge," he kept on--his tone of voice was like, "I don't see any problem." You know, he's just--seems so glib to me. And then after Deirdra left, he--he made it a point to look at me directly in the eye. He was staring at me for at least three seconds straight without moving his eyes from me. He gave me a very, very intimidating type of look, and he's never looked at me that long since we've been here.

THE COURT: Did you in response to Mrs. Robertson's question, "Does anybody feel they need to talk to the Judge," did you say anything in response?

JUROR NO. 1427: Yes. A lot of us said we did. A lot of--you know, everybody was speaking at once and I was the one who said, "Yes, I think we do."

THE COURT: Okay. Don't go away. Hold on.

(Discussion between the Court, Ms. Clark and Mr. Cochran.)

THE COURT: You mentioned there were incidents where you feel certain jurors have been disrespectful to the deputies. Can you tell me or give me an example of any of those?

JUROR NO. 1427: Just the tone of voice that 1233 uses with Deputy--used with Deputy "A", that one incident where she wanted to use the steam room. I overhear them talk about respect a great deal, that people have to learn to respect one another, and they go on and on, but yet, when they talk to someone, for example--for example, 165, he has this tone of voice that he uses. When he speaks to me, for example, he doesn't even know my name. I don't even think he knows my name. And he says, "You, you over there, hey you," and he never uses my name or my number. Yet, I sit next to him in the jury box and I also room right next to him in the hotel. So I just--and just the fact that whenever I walk into a room, they give me the silent treatment. They--

THE COURT: How about--you mentioned towards the deputies, certain jurors have been disrespectful to the deputies.

JUROR NO. 1427: Just the tone of voice they use with the deputies. Like, for example, 165, he'll ask for something. Like I noticed one thing with "A", I remember he asked for something. I don't remember what it was, and Deputy "A" could not accommodate him right away. And 165 said, "Oh, oh, forget it. Forget it," and then "A" said, "But, sir, wait a minute. Let me explain to you why I can't accommodate you." And he just wouldn't give him the chance to explain himself and he just said, "Forget it, forget it," and he turns and walks away. He's not willing to listen.

THE COURT: Okay. 1427, I'm going to order you not to speculate as to the reasons why these changes have occurred. You're not to discuss this with any other juror. All right?

JUROR NO. 1427: Uh-huh.

THE COURT: Okay. Thank you very much.

JUROR NO. 1427: Okay.

THE COURT: Can we have no. 63, please.

(Juror no. 1427 exits chambers.)

(Juror no. 63 enters chambers.)

THE CLERK: Juror 63.

THE COURT: 63, why don't you have a seat. I understand that there's some unhappiness. Can you tell me about that?

JUROR NO. 63: Well, I don't know the course of events leading up to yesterday, but I know that the loss of the three deputies from our staff is going to be greatly felt and--

THE COURT: Why is that?

JUROR NO. 63: Because they've gone at an integral part of our daily life and they were good and hard-working people. And I hope that whatever happened, it hasn't, you know, negatively affected their life or their career or anything like that.

THE COURT: Do you feel that there was no reason, no misconduct on their part that would cause anything--cause them to be reassigned?

JUROR NO. 63: Not that I saw. I mean like I said, I don't know what happened, but my perspective is that I never saw anything wrong.

THE COURT: Okay. How did it come to your attention that these three deputies had been reassigned?

JUROR NO. 63: Well, I don't know that they've been reassigned. I just knew they weren't in the hotel anymore. I mean they weren't there at the end of the day when we went back to the hotel. So they're--they're not with us anymore.

THE COURT: Was that discussed last night? I understand there was discussion in the TV room about this. Were you part of that discussion?

JUROR NO. 63: A discussion?

THE COURT: About the missing three deputies?

JUROR NO. 63: Well, it was obvious that they weren't there anymore. I don't know--I mean--

THE COURT: All right. Do you feel that there's anything about this particular change in the deputies that would cause you to have any problems being a fair and impartial juror in this case?

JUROR NO. 63: No.

THE COURT: Is there anything about this change that would cause you a problem in getting along with the other jurors?

JUROR NO. 63: No.

THE COURT: I notice you're wearing dark clothing today. Is there a reason for that?

JUROR NO. 63: Well, wasn't a happy day.

THE COURT: Okay. I had heard you were all going to wear your ************** T-shirts today.

JUROR NO. 63: We had planned on it, but I don't--I mean, I for one didn't think it was appropriate for me to come in here wearing a T-shirt this morning if I knew I was going to be talking to you.

THE COURT: Okay. And, no. 63, I want to emphasize that you always have the opportunity to come in and talk to me. And I'm getting around to it and I take your discomfort seriously in this situation. This morning, has there been any discussion of this issue in the jury room?

JUROR NO. 63: No.

THE COURT: How about on the van ride over or during breakfast?

JUROR NO. 63: No.

THE COURT: Okay. Is there anything you feel you ought to tell me about?

JUROR NO. 63: No. I just--you know, when things like this happen and things like we talked about on Wednesday happened, you know, they're upsetting and I just don't want it to obstruct or overshadow the reason why we're all here.

THE COURT: All right. No. 63, I'm sorry. Obviously you feel very strongly about that. Do you feel that you've formed an attachment to those jurors--I mean to those bailiffs?

JUROR NO. 63: It's just like I said. I mean, when you're--when you're living and breathing and working with the same people for what has it been, almost four months now, you know, you grow accustomed to having them with you everyday, and they will be missed.

THE COURT: Okay. No. 63, I'm going to direct you not to speculate as to why these things have occurred. You're not to discuss this with any of the jurors. And if you'll hold on just a second.

(Discussion between the Court, Ms. Clark and Mr. Cochran.)

THE COURT: Is there anything about this--obviously you feel very strongly about this. Is there anything about this--you indicated you felt that the jurors were an integral--I mean the bailiffs were an integral part of your life up to this point. Anything about that, the loss of these bailiffs, that will affect your ability to listen to the facts of the case as they're presented and to be a fair juror?

JUROR NO. 63: No.

THE COURT: Okay. All right. No. 63, thank you very much. And if you do feel--do continue to feel that you need to talk to me, that the door is open. All right.

JUROR NO. 63: Okay. Thanks.

THE COURT: Thank you.

(Juror no. 63 exits chambers.)

THE COURT: All right. I'm going to--why don't you bring me--department g, we are going to go back in the court. I'm going to tell the jurors we're going to continue to talk to them, not to speculate what's going on, I'll get to each one of them who've asked to speak to me and we'll continue this on Monday.

MR. DARDEN: You know, I just handed Mr. Cochran a note expressing the point of view that I wish you'd talk to 453 today before you broke just to see how she's doing and how she's handling this.

THE COURT: Deputy g, do we still have Mr. Simpson?


THE COURT: We're going to go back into a quick session.

THE BAILIFF: I've got the caterer setting up.

THE COURT: Oh, you do?

THE BAILIFF: He's already setting up.

THE COURT: Then what I am going to do then, with the reporter and one counsel from each side, I'm going to go in the jury room, tell them that I have received their communication and I am in the process of granting their request to speak to the Court and that we'll continue this on Monday and not to speculate as to any of the reasons why we're talking to them. All right. Let's move over there. I'm going to order all counsel, all persons present not to make any comment on this matter publicly until further order by the Court.

(The following proceedings were held in the jury room in the presence of the jurors with Ms. Clark and Mr. Cochran present.)

THE COURT: Hello. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

THE JURY: Good morning.

THE COURT: I received a letter from a number of you asking to talk to me. As I mentioned to you when we spoke earlier this week, that I have an open-door policy. Any time any of you feel you need to talk to me, that I have an open door, and I will get to you. I've started doing that this morning and, you know, I've talked to a number of you this morning and haven't had time to finish that. So I will continue this process on Monday morning. But I want to order you not to speculate as to the reason why it is that we're doing this and why we stopped the court proceeding. You are not to speculate the reason why any of the staff changes have been made. And I'll continue talking to you all on Monday, and I appreciate your patience. I apologize to you for the inconvenience. We have other activities going on today that I need to attend to. So I thought I needed to come back and at least tell you that I am considering these issues and hopefully we'll complete this on Monday.

THE JURY: Thank you.

THE COURT: Have a nice weekend.

THE JURY: Thank you.

(At 12:00 P.M., an adjournment was taken until, Monday, April 24, 1995, 9:00 A.M.)


department no. 103 Hon. Lance A. Ito, Judge

APPEARANCES: (Appearances as heretofore noted.)

(Janet M. Moxham, CSR no. 4855, official reporter.)

(Christine M. Olson, CSR no. 2378, official reporter.)

(The following proceedings were held in camera:)

THE COURT: All right. Give me 353.

(Brief pause.)

(Juror no. 353 enters chambers.)

THE COURT: 353, why don't you have a seat. How are you today?

JUROR NO. 353: Pretty good, I guess.

THE COURT: On Friday I got actually two letters that involve you. First one, you are one of a group of a number of jurors who wanted to talk concerning some of the issues over at the hotel. Do you want to tell me about that?

JUROR NO. 353: Well, I guess I don't know what to say about that. Concerning the hotel?

THE COURT: Concerning the sheriff's deputies?

JUROR NO. 353: Well, I know a few of them, after Thursday, weren't around.

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

JUROR NO. 353: And we didn't know why.

THE COURT: All right. Do you have any problems about any of that now?

JUROR NO. 353: No.

THE COURT: Okay. Anything else?

JUROR NO. 353: I would like to go home. You asked.

THE COURT: I asked.

JUROR NO. 353: And I tell you Wednesday I tossed and turned all night. I mean, I don't think--after our conversations here, I mean I don't think I slept more than a couple hours. I mean, I was really kind of--I didn't realize how it upset me, and I just--then I was thinking about what you said about having the stamina. I mean, I don't know if anybody has realized what I--I mean, my husband has been sick, he has had walking pneumonia and he collapsed on the job about four or five weeks ago. They took him to the hospital and then he didn't have the emergency number here, couldn't get ahold of him. And his doctor is telling him take one day at a time. Eventually has gotten better, but he just went back to work last week, still not feeling well, and it just seems like one thing after another. It is hard on me.

THE COURT: But he is back at work?

JUROR NO. 353: He is back to work. I saw him yesterday. He came by and he is still, you know, "My back still hurts and sore where they had to pull that fluid out," so I don't know if it is--you know how husbands get sometimes. I don't know if it is so much he misses me, misses my attention, or he just, you know, is starting to get ill again. I don't know. He is supposed to go into the doctor again on Thursday. Supposed to go Friday and the doctor canceled it. Said he had some seminar or something, but he is supposed to go back in, rescheduled for Thursday, and supposed to take another chest x-ray to see if the fluid is still clearing up. He has a pocket somewhere, infection on the side. I know, nice thing to talk about at 9:15 in the morning.

THE COURT: No, but if it is something that is distracting you, I mean, I think that is something that we need to know.

JUROR NO. 353: Absolutely.

THE COURT: But by the same token, he is under medical care, seems to be making progress. So is there anything else in particular, anything--I mean, that situation, your husband's health situation obviously is important to you.

JUROR NO. 353: Well, just, you know, just seems--it is stressful. I mean, you know, it is tough being--being away from home. I wake up sometimes. I can't get back to sleep. I'm alone in a hotel room. I have gotten sick off the food a few times and just, you know--and then coming in here, and you know, you asked.

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

JUROR NO. 353: And I thought about it and I don't know if I could--you know, really, you know, there are times when I just don't know. I don't know if--you know, thinking into August, that means May and June and that means the summer, you know. That is a long time. I try. I try to keep it together one day at a time, but you know.

THE COURT: Okay. Well, you seem to be doing better today. All right. I will think about that, but I really want you to hang in there. Okay?

JUROR NO. 353: You really do? I mean--

THE COURT: I don't want to lose anybody. All right. Do you have anything else to say about that other situation with the sheriff's deputies? That is primarily why I called you in today.

JUROR NO. 353: Let's see. No. I just--if I did, it is not what is on my--I can't think of anything right now, no.

THE COURT: All right. Is there anything?

JUROR NO. 353: Is there anything you want to ask me?

THE COURT: Yeah. Is there anything about any of that situation that might cause you to be an unfair juror or unable to participate as a fair and unbiased juror?

JUROR NO. 353: No.

THE COURT: Is there anything that would cause to you favor one side over the other, given that situation?

JUROR NO. 353: No.

THE COURT: Do you think there is anything that would cause you to have any difficulty in working with the other jurors?

JUROR NO. 353: No, no.

THE COURT: I don't recall how you were dressed on Friday. Did you come in as one of the black jurors?

JUROR NO. 353: Yes.

THE COURT: Or dressed-in-black jurors?

JUROR NO. 353: Yes.

THE COURT: All right. Is there anything about the--any relationships between the jurors that are making it difficult to get along, other than the ones that you told us about already?

JUROR NO. 353: No.

THE COURT: Anything new?

JUROR NO. 353: You know what, I take things--I don't--I don't, you know, I don't dwell on things a lot, you know. I try to--especially the relationships that are in here. I mean, you know, relationships that are important to me are my husband, my son, my mother, all of that. What happens in here I try to--you know, I try to--everything is relative, you know. I mean, one day you are up, and you know, you are getting along with people. It is volatile. I mean, just think of it yourself. Pack yourself in with eighteen strangers, rent a floor of a hotel room, you know, see each other 24 hours a day seven days a week, and you know, you are bound to have little skirmishes or little things that are going to upset you.

THE COURT: Is there anything about any of those situations that are going to actually distract you from being able to concentrate?

JUROR NO. 353: No, nothing about that, absolutely nothing.

THE COURT: How about other things, home situation, anything that is so distracting that you can't concentrate?

JUROR NO. 353: No, I'm not distracted by it. My attention--and that is not part of it. I just think I just get lonely. I mean, I'm just--

THE COURT: Do you recall Thursday night the--any discussions about the deputies and where they were going, why they weren't there?

JUROR NO. 353: Well, I know Thursday, let's see, we were going to wear the--somebody was saying that we were going to wear--…. … … had given everybody a T-shirt, and I guess maybe we were trying to eke out another meal, I don't know, but we will wear them, and then somebody was saying they weren't going to wear theirs and I felt silly.

THE COURT: Being the only one?

JUROR NO. 353: (Nods head up and down.)

THE COURT: Okay. All right. No. 353, I'm going to direct you not to discuss this matter with any of the other jurors, and we will be in touch.

JUROR NO. 353: Okay.

MR. COCHRAN: Judge, one question?

THE COURT: Yes. Hold on.

(Brief pause.)

JUROR NO. 353: Boy, you guys can't even talk to me?

THE COURT: No, I'm the one who asks the questions.

(Brief pause.)

THE COURT: Thank you.

(Brief pause.)

THE COURT: How did you come to the conclusion that some of the deputies had been reassigned? Did anybody tell you that?

JUROR NO. 353: I had no idea they had been reassigned. All I know is that two--the deputies "I" and "B" didn't--I think it was--was that Wednesday afternoon? Was it Wednesday afternoon or Thursday afternoon, I'm not sure which now. We were down in the elevator ready to come back up, and I think I was the one that asked or somebody asked, "Where is "B" and "I"?" And then the deputy who was down there at the elevator told us, well, "They won't be back," something to that effect, or "They are not around any more" or "They won't be back," and they said--I believe he said it was "Deputy "I", "B" and "A" won't be back," something like that, to that effect.

THE COURT: Was anything else said to you about that?

JUROR NO. 353: That was it.

THE COURT: Did you observe any jurors in the TV room unusually upset about any of this?

JUROR NO. 353: I don't know if they were upset about this or--I don't know.

THE COURT: Anything about the reaction of the other jurors that would cause--

JUROR NO. 353: I guess they wanted--I mean, I work for the phone company. When somebody disappears in the middle of a shift, it is not a good thing usually. When you come to work in the morning and you are not there in the evening, you know, you kind of figure something happened to them, and--

THE COURT: Does that happen a lot at the phone company?

JUROR NO. 353: Every once in awhile, yeah.

THE COURT: Okay. Anything about that meeting in the TV room or anybody being very upset about this that would cause you any distraction in this case?

JUROR NO. 353: No.

THE COURT: Okay. Okay. 353, thanks a lot.

JUROR NO. 353: That is it?

THE COURT: That is it. You are free to go.

JUROR NO. 353: Wait a minute. Somebody has got another question.

(Brief pause.)

THE COURT: They always have another question.

JUROR NO. 353: I noticed.

THE COURT: Thank you.

(Brief pause.)

THE COURT: All right. Thank you.

JUROR NO. 353: That is it?

THE COURT: That is it.

(Juror no. 353 exits chambers.)

THE COURT: All right. No. 98.

(Brief pause.)

(discussion held off the record.)

THE CLERK: Juror 98.

(Juror no. 98 enters chambers.)

THE COURT: Good morning, no. 98. How are you today?

JUROR NO. 98: Fine, thank you.

THE COURT: Are we better today?

JUROR NO. 98: Yes, much better, thank you.

THE COURT: Okay. We have adjusted?

JUROR NO. 98: Yes. Try.

THE COURT: Tell me about how you feel about all this.

JUROR NO. 98: Well, naturally I was a bit upset a little bit. I had a lot of personal reasons in it, because I guess because I was a little emotional because a couple of the deputies was with me when my sister passed, that was one, and the second was because it happened so--you know, being away from home, I guess, and getting adjusted to people and then the change, you know, try to hope not too many changes come here.

THE COURT: How are you feeling about it today?

JUROR NO. 98: I'm better. I realize things happen. You know, there is a lot of things you have no control over in life, and I just adjust to that.

THE COURT: All right. Is there anything about this situation that is going to distract you or cause you not to be able to concentrate on the case?

JUROR NO. 98: Oh, no. It is just that my thought was what did I do or did we do something, you know, because the deputies are people, too, and in my heart I never want to do anything that--my part that might have created a problem.

THE COURT: I take it that you are not happy that that happened, that you were happy to keep those sheriff's deputies there?

JUROR NO. 98: Yeah, I was sort of happy to keep them.

THE COURT: You had no problem with them personally?

JUROR NO. 98: Oh, no, no. As a matter of fact, like I said, they were there with me through a lot of crying times. They were just there, just--I was wondering what could they have done myself, but I guess it is not for me to be concerned about things that are beyond my scope.

THE COURT: Uh-huh. When you found out that those three deputies had been reassigned, how did you learn that information?

JUROR NO. 98: Well, you know, we are like kids. They are there everyday for--going on four months. They are with us. We were waiting for them to come down to take us home and they weren't there, so we asked, "Where are they?" I didn't know about the night deputy, but after we had gotten to--after we had gotten to the hotel, we asked and the sergeant came over and talked to us that approached him.

THE COURT: All right. I understand that there was a group in the TV room that night that were very upset about this. Did you see anything--

JUROR NO. 98: Well, we cried. We shedded some tears a little bit.

THE COURT: Is there anything--I mean, have you gotten over that? I mean, is that going to affect your ability to be fair in this case?

JUROR NO. 98: No, because I'm hoping that--see, I was under the impression that they were fired fired.

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

JUROR NO. 98: But as long as I know they are not fired. I mean things--like I said, you all have your reason for what you do. I just pray they are not, you know, no longer deputies.

THE COURT: Uh-huh. Okay. My recollection is that you were wearing black on Friday. Do you recall that?

JUROR NO. 98: Yes, very much so.

THE COURT: All right. You were one of the people who felt that was a good thing to do?

JUROR NO. 98: Well, let's--I was one of the people that was showing that we miss someone. It wasn't any offensive move. It is just that we miss you. It is like something was taken. You know, it wasn't--

THE COURT: You might be amused to hear that the news media is reporting that the jury is on strike.

JUROR NO. 98: Oh.

THE COURT: So you see how that got sort of blown out of proportion.

JUROR NO. 98: Very much so, but that wasn't--that was not me. We were just showing the deputies that we miss them. That was it in a nutshell.

THE COURT: All right. Are you ready to get started again as soon as we finish talking all of the people?

JUROR NO. 98: I am good to go.


JUROR NO. 98: I'm okay.

THE COURT: Mr. Darden?

MR. DARDEN: No questions, your Honor.

(Brief pause.)

THE COURT: Do you think that given your--I would have to term it as being affection for these sheriff's deputies, because of your particular situation, do you think that that would cause you to favor one side or the other here?

JUROR NO. 98: Oh, no. This has nothing to do with this case, none whatsoever.

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

JUROR NO. 98: This is just--see, I live--our living arrangements is totally different from what we do here. You know, this is--that is like home over there. That is--we are like family, you know. And it has nothing to do with what I have to do here. I'm on a level where I can separate what I have to do, just like I understand that things happen. I just didn't know why it happened. You know, sometimes things happen and it happens so quickly, say what did I do or what did we do, you know. So that was my concern. It wasn't about--this has nothing to do with anything else. It was just after you be with a person so long and the first time I was away from home, but I can adjust. We have more deputies. We have to just regroup. That is all I'm doing.

THE COURT: Okay. Was there anything discussed about this issue over the weekend over at the hotel amongst any of the jurors?

JUROR NO. 98: No. Once we wore our black--

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

JUROR NO. 98: --and showed that we missed them, that was the end of it. Please believe me, when we come and talk, me myself, we are on a level where we know where to stop, as far as I'm concerned.

THE COURT: You mentioned that the jurors are sort of a family over there at the hotel.

JUROR NO. 98: Okay.

THE COURT: Is there anything about this particular incident that will cause some members of the family not to be as welcome?

JUROR NO. 98: No.

THE COURT: You don't see any problems like that?

JUROR NO. 98: No, because I must say this: You know, people are people. Today we may eat together. Tomorrow we may play together. People are going to do whatever they feel like. You can't really say what a person feel like doing everyday, but we are all right.

THE COURT: Okay. No. 98, I'm going to direct you not to discuss this with anybody else and we will get started again as soon as I finish talking to all the people I need to.

JUROR NO. 98: Okay.

THE COURT: Thanks a lot.

JUROR NO. 98: All right. Have a nice day.

(Juror no. 98 exits chambers.)

THE COURT: All right. 19.

(Brief pause.)

THE CLERK: Juror 19.

(Juror no. 19 enters chambers.)

JUROR NO. 19: Good morning.

THE COURT: Good morning. How are you. Come on in. Sit down. How are you today?

JUROR NO. 19: Not too bad.

THE COURT: Good, good. Last week I asked the sheriff's department to reassign three of the deputies who were involved in the case and there was some concern on the jury's part about that. I take it you share some of that concern?

JUROR NO. 19: Yes, sir, I did.

THE COURT: Tell me about that.

JUROR NO. 19: Umm, I didn't think they did anything wrong. To me they were just fine. I never had problems with them. They were courteous, helpful. I had never had a problem with either one of those three. As a matter of fact, any of the deputies I have never had a problem with. And it is just--I don't see why--I though somebody must have complained and that is pretty much the consensus, that is what I figured, but I just hate to see somebody leave and maybe mess up like their record or something that they were removed from something like this.

THE COURT: Uh-huh. When you say you figured that or the consensus is that somebody must have complained, is there going to be any problem working with people, either--that you might feel have caused this to happen?

JUROR NO. 19: Well, pretty much I can ignore them, but there is--I can--the hostility Thursday and Friday were pretty deep, I could feel it big time. So most of the time I am in the workout room, like I said. But they were throwing it back in some of the people's faces that--not literally to their face, but saying stuff around so they can hear it.

THE COURT: Like what?

JUROR NO. 19: Umm, okay. Like the way I found out was I have like a Sony CD player stereo type little speaker things and I put that in the workout room because I'm in there most of the time, so I just leave it in there. So I took it in there Thursday and when--I usually don't go to dinner. I stay working out about that time. And on the way back from there I usually go--go hop on the phone. Well, I talked to my--call and talk to my boy and stuff. But when I was going that way, in the first TV room I saw one of the girls crying and so, you know, my first thought was, hey, somebody--somebody died, because she was balling pretty good. And so when I went up and asked--you know, to see what is up, somebody else mentioned that three of the deputies were dismissed. So that kind of like it bothered me, and when things bother me, I'm better off--I'm the type of person that is just better off by myself, so like as I was leaving--and I got to apologize for that, I sort of like mentioned--I go, hey--they were supposed to wear T-shirts on Friday, …. … T-shirts, and as I was walking out, "I'm going to wear black, I'm in mourning" and when I came out--that was basically it that evening, well, except for one comment, but when I went back in the morning when I came out and most of the people were in black, it was like, bam, I should have kept my mouth shut. But as I was coming back from calling my son and calling my girlfriend up, one juror--they have this little corner where they have set up where they have like the snacks, potato chips, refrigerator and stuff like that, and when Juror no. 1489 saw me coming and he knew I was coming because our eyes met when he turned around. He was like singing to himself like today is--today is just a beautiful day, but singing like a little tune. And when I passed him, I turned around and glanced back at him, he looked to see if I was--if I had heard him and he knew I did, and that was it for that day. The next day--

THE COURT: Which juror was that?

JUROR NO. 19: Shoot, I don't know. Juror no. 1489. I don't know the number. The big guy.

THE COURT: The guy that sits behind you?

JUROR NO. 19: Yeah.

THE COURT: The next day in the--Juror no. 165, the older gentleman, I still don't know his number, in that first TV room a lot of people waiting there in the morning like if you are early, like, ten, fifteen minutes early before we come and hop in the vans to leave, we sit there, and Juror no. 165 never comes in--he doesn't come in there, but he made a point to go in there that day and tell everybody good morning and he had a little smirk on his face. And I didn't think nothing about it at the time because I was thinking, well, maybe he is just trying to be courteous now that he knows there is some tension. Kind of proved that wrong, though, because after we got done Friday here--

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

JUROR NO. 19: --as we were leaving in the elevator to go down to lunch, him and Juror no. 1489 were--you know, I can hear them talking and saying it loud enough so people could hear, that today is a great today, today is a real good day, everybody should be smiling today. And again Juror no. 1489 in the elevator there is a--you know, I'm not one to really watch a whole lot of stuff, but it just caught my eye when he did. Juror no. 1489 actually pushed one of the other jurors, bumped her physically. There is a little spot to fit between the deputy and against the elevator door. And when you--when you actually push somebody and make, you know, there I go again, I'm sorry.

THE COURT: All right. The record should reflect that the juror bumped against my filing cabinet causing many things to fall off the top of it that are precariously--

JUROR NO. 19: Sorry.

THE COURT: That is all right.

JUROR NO. 19: And when you do stuff like that, it just, you know, makes--it just makes you wonder sometimes.

THE COURT: Which juror got bumped?

JUROR NO. 19: Juror no. 1427. I know her number is 14 something, but the--one of the tall girls. Her name is Juror no. 1427.

THE CLERK: 1427.


JUROR NO. 19: That's the number. And just little things like that, that I hear them say or do, or even when Deirdra walked in and asked yesterday, Friday, is there anybody who wants to speak to the Judge, I mean, right away Juror no. 1489 was the first one, oh--oh, no, everything is fine, everything is wonderful. It is like a few of us had to speak up and say, "Hey, we would like to talk to him," and that is basically what I have seen.

THE COURT: All right. Is there anything about that discussion in the TV room with people crying that is going to upset--that has upset you enough that you are going to have a hard time being a fair juror in this case?

JUROR NO. 19: No, because I'm not one to get--I was mad--I was angry at the time.

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

JUROR NO. 19: Because I liked these guys that were there, but I mean, I have been dealing with it, I can deal with it still.

THE COURT: Can you separate what goes on about how the jury is handled versus the evidence that is presented here in court? Can you make--keep those things separate?

JUROR NO. 19: Oh, yeah, those things are separate. There is no problem with that.

THE COURT: All right. Do you think you will have any difficulty working with any of the other jurors on the case?

JUROR NO. 19: No. I have only had one problem really with one juror and he is gone, so nobody was as bad as him.


JUROR NO. 19: He was a pain.

THE COURT: Yeah, okay. Anything about your relationship with the sheriffs that you are unhappy to see reassigned? Is there anything about that that would cause you to favor one side over the other?

JUROR NO. 19: No, actually--actually I had mentioned to a couple, if you feel some hostility, it is not because of you guys coming in, but they are actually all pretty good guys. You know, I never had a problem, even with the new ones or the old ones. As a matter of fact, I even actually get along a little bit better with some of the newer ones. I just get along with them a little bit better.

(Brief pause.)

JUROR NO. 19: That is a better way to do it; no more side bars.

THE COURT: How did you find out the deputies had been reassigned?

JUROR NO. 19: Okay. When I walked into the room when that one girl was crying--

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

JUROR NO. 19: --I asked what was wrong and she really couldn't say, so somebody else had said that they had mentioned that--the deputies names and said they are not going to be here with us no more.

THE COURT: Uh-huh. Did they say anything else besides they are not going to be with us any more?

JUROR NO. 19: No, actually that was it, because at that point I knew what happened. Basically I figured somebody complained.

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

JUROR NO. 19: And I basically--I know more or less who did.

THE COURT: Are you going to have any problem working with the people who complained about those things?

JUROR NO. 19: No, because I never really hung with them anyway a whole lot. Like I say, I'm always in the workout room, so the only time I really ever see them is maybe on the weekend when I catch a movie in the morning or something, and that is really the only time.

THE COURT: This incident Friday with the elevator incident, how did she react to being bumped like that?

JUROR NO. 19: Well, I mean, she looked at him, but he didn't look back at her and she just went back and put her head back down. I mean, I saw that one happen, and then like during--like--like during lunchtime and stuff like that--like on Friday and also on Saturday, when we came down here for the stuff that was happening here, he would be eyeballing her, and the only reason why I caught that is because I saw what he did to her in the elevator, so I just kept watching him and that is just what I happened to see.

THE COURT: But this happened Friday?

JUROR NO. 19: This was Friday.


JUROR NO. 19: Some of this was Friday, but some of it was Saturday, when we came here for--for the Raspyni Brothers.

THE COURT: For what?

JUROR NO. 19: Raspyni.

THE COURT: How was that?

JUROR NO. 19: Actually they were pretty good. Actually they were real good.

THE COURT: You indicated you felt you were pretty sure who complained about that. Who do you feel who complained about it?

JUROR NO. 19: In my head I had Juror no. 1489 and--what is her name--I thought--I'm pretty sure Juror no. 1489 did and I was thinking maybe Juror no. 453 and Juror no. 165 did.

THE COURT: Uh-huh. Is there anything about--do you feel that they--are you willing to give them the benefit of the doubt that they may be justified in some of the complaints that they made?

JUROR NO. 19: What do you mean justified in their complaint?

THE COURT: That some of their personal relationships with those deputies were such that maybe they were justified in making their complaints? Do you have any problem giving them the benefit of the doubt in that assumption?

JUROR NO. 19: If you tell me to, I will, but I don't know. I just can't say.

THE COURT: What I'm going to tell you to is that you can't speculate as to why I asked those deputies to be reassigned.

JUROR NO. 19: Okay.

THE COURT: And you can't speculate--and that should have no impact upon your view of the evidence in this case?

JUROR NO. 19: Oh, no, that is two separate things right there. What is going on in the case is separate from what is happening over there.

THE COURT: All right. No. 19, anything else you want to tell me about any of these things?

JUROR NO. 19: I probably will think of something when I walk out that door, but right now I'm drawing a blank.

THE COURT: Okay. All right. I'm going to direct you not to discuss this matter with anybody else. All right?

JUROR NO. 19: Okay.

THE COURT: Thanks a lot.

JUROR NO. 19: Thank you for your time.

MR. COCHRAN: Thank you.

(Juror no. 19 exits chambers.)

MR. COCHRAN: Judge, that one question you didn't follow up, you obviously have a reason to, he says, "If you tell me to, I will," but you heard that?

THE COURT: I heard.

MR. COCHRAN: You didn't want to ask him about that?

THE COURT: I heard.

MS. CLARK: Have you talked to 1427 yet?

THE COURT: Yeah, we already did.

MS. CLARK: I can't remember.

MR. COCHRAN: You can't have any concern about his response. I guess the question was whether or not he could--


THE CLERK: Juror 2179.

(Juror no. 2179 enters chambers.)

THE COURT: Hi. How are you today?

JUROR NO. 2179: Okay.

THE COURT: How are you today?

JUROR NO. 2179: Oh, pretty good.

THE COURT: Better?

JUROR NO. 2179: Well, no, not really.

THE COURT: Well, tell me.

JUROR NO. 2179: Well, my husband wants me out of here and I'm afraid that his job--he has been off a whole lot since I've been in here and I'm afraid that he is going to lose his job. He is talking about he is stressed out and he is--he said he is going to try to talk to his captain to see if he could get some kind of leave to be off work, and he said, you know--

THE COURT: Refresh my recollection. I don't have your questionnaire in front of me.

JUROR NO. 2179: He is a security officer--he worked for the ... … ... … …

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

JUROR NO. 2179: And he has been taking off ever since I have been in here, and then at one point--

THE COURT: Taking off to do what?

JUROR NO. 2179: He has just been calling off, you know. Said he just hasn't felt up to going to work, you know, and that is not like him. He is always at work, you know, and then they had like threatened him once before, I was telling Sergeant "J", that they told him they were short of people one Saturday and they told him that if he didn't come, stay that whole night Saturday, that it might jeopardize his future visits on Saturday nights. That is like what, you know, so they kind of got that hanging over his head, you know, saying that, you know, it is like they letting him off to do this and he might get--you know, they might take it from him if he don't, so he got that over his head and he just, you know, getting kind of worried. I said we can't live off of just my check, you know. We need both our jobs, you know.

THE COURT: How long has this been going on with your husband?

JUROR NO. 2179: He has been pretty good, but just recently within the last few weeks, he is just--you know, then last night he was like, "You need to take off" because he just can't take it any more.

THE COURT: What is it about the pressures of your not being there? What kind of pressures are on him now that you are not there?

JUROR NO. 2179: He just said he just can't function, you know, because we only been married for like seven months. Four of the months, three months been in here, you know. We was only married four months before I came in here, you know, but he would like to say--you know, he said he hoped that I could stay until the end, but I said, "You just getting frustrated," I guess, I don't know, so I said, "Oh, no," so I said I will talk to the sergeant and see if they could talk and see if they could let you off or something or give you time off. And I told him I come this far and I hate to, you know, not to finish it. Since I had been here so long, you know, I want to see this thing through to the end, you know. That is one thing that was--that was the main thing that took over. And the other stuff that was happening, I was like--

THE COURT: Tell me about how you feel--we will get back to this personal problem. Well, let's finish that discussion, actually. Is there anything you think that I could do to help you out with this situation?

JUROR NO. 2179: I don't know. Maybe if he just get that time off, maybe he will relax and don't have to worry about going to work for awhile. I don't know.

THE COURT: How long has he been working down there?

JUROR NO. 2179: He has been down there going on two or three years now and he get--he gets his vacation time once a year, and that is in August, so he has had to work from August to August before he get his vacation time and stuff like that.

THE COURT: How much vacation time does he get?

JUROR NO. 2179: I think he said he only get two weeks.

THE COURT: Do you know how much time he has missed from work so far?

JUROR NO. 2179: He missed quite a few days. He said they have like ten days, ten call-offs they have before they take action against him, and he must have took off at least maybe six times already, plus he came home early last night from work, you know, and went to training in the morning and he took off work at four o'clock yesterday and he supposed to get off work at ten o'clock at night, so he went in for maybe what, two hours, maybe an hour and a half or whatever, and he just took off, you know.

THE COURT: So he is depressed about your being here?

JUROR NO. 2179: Yeah.

THE COURT: But you know, if he gets some additional time off, I mean, this situation is--there has got to be a better way to deal with this, because just getting him--I mean, he is going to wind up getting fired if he gets too much time off.

JUROR NO. 2179: Yeah. That is what I was worried about. He said he is going to try to see if he could just take a leave of absence, you know, and just take off and don't have to worry about his job.

THE COURT: Are you guys going to be able to live on your paycheck if he takes a leave absence, because you don't get paid for that?

JUROR NO. 2179: Well, we probably could for a little while. Not on a--you know, because he has his own business, too, and that is another thing. He said he take off from this, he will just devote more time and try to build up the business, but we still have to cut back, you know, since we going to be living and try to work on one paycheck.

THE COURT: Uh-huh. Is this whole situation going to distract you from being able to concentrate on the case, this problem with your husband?

JUROR NO. 2179: It might. You know in the back of my mind, you know, it might.

THE COURT: All right. How about if I have Sergeant "J" contact your husband and find out specifically what the problem is and how he wants to deal with it?

JUROR NO. 2179: Oh. That will be fine.

THE COURT: And see what--see what he says, because you can't just--I mean, if he takes a leave of absence, I mean--then what is it he going to do, sit home all day?

JUROR NO. 2179: That is another thing. He--he works constantly. He trying to get his own business started before he to go work, and he is constantly running, and I know it is wearing on him, you know. I told him you have to have slow down because he is running, get up early in the morning and he try to do all this work before he go to work, and he stay up late at night and he is trying to stay busy.

THE COURT: What kind of business is this?

JUROR NO. 2179: He has a wholesale business and he works at the swapmeet on his days off trying to sell his products and stuff at the swapmeets and he is doing a little business, running all over the place, but if the sergeant can talk to him, that a would be fine.

THE COURT: All right. Is there anything about--anything about this problem at this time that would cause you to be unfair to one side or the other?

JUROR NO. 2179: No.

THE COURT: All right. Let's talk about the situation with reassigning the deputies. How did you feel about that last week?

JUROR NO. 2179: I was shocked. I was in total--I was like what, you know. I didn't even know until dinnertime somebody mentioned that they wasn't going to be there any more and I was like what?

THE COURT: Who told you this?

JUROR NO. 2179: One of the jurors. I can't remember which one it was.

THE COURT: How much discussion was there Thursday night about this?

JUROR NO. 2179: It was just that, you know, that "I" and "B" and "A" is not going to be here any more. And I was like "Really?" And that was it. They were saying that was all that was said, and you know, we just have a change--

THE COURT: My recollection is that you were wearing black on Friday?

JUROR NO. 2179: Yeah.

THE COURT: Did you do that as part of the group decision to express your sadness about this?

JUROR NO. 2179: Well, mainly--I wear black on Fridays any more, some form of black. For me it just fell into the plan for our union at the job at … …, black for us signify solidarity in the union and stuff like that, so we still trying to get our contract ratified, so I just still wear my black even though they don't know that, but I've just been wearing black for so long on Fridays, some form of black, it just like--

THE COURT: Just sort of your Friday uniform?

JUROR NO. 2179: Yeah.

THE COURT: Okay. So that had no significance?

JUROR NO. 2179: No, no.

THE COURT: All right. No. 2179, is there anything about that situation, the reassignment of the deputies, that causes you any concern?

JUROR NO. 2179: A little.

THE COURT: Tell me about that.

JUROR NO. 2179: Like, you know, they were all good deputies. That is like what? You know, I was just kind of shocked that they were gone.

THE COURT: You would--

JUROR NO. 2179: They were good deputies.

THE COURT: You would have preferred that that didn't happen?

JUROR NO. 2179: Yeah. Me personally, yes.

THE COURT: All right. Is there anything about that that is going to cause you any problems concentrating on the case or being a fair juror?

JUROR NO. 2179: Oh, no, un-unh.

THE COURT: Can you separate what goes on as far as how the jury is handled versus the evidence that is presented in the courtroom?

JUROR NO. 2179: Yes.

THE COURT: All right. I am concerned about those other things that you mentioned about your husband, because I don't want that to be distracting to you.

JUROR NO. 2179: Yeah.

THE COURT: So I will--I will have the sergeant get in touch with your job and see if he can--maybe if he can--Sergeant "J" can have a man to man talk to him about that.

JUROR NO. 2179: Oh, yeah, that probably would help.

THE COURT: Maybe we will see what happens there.

JUROR NO. 2179: Yeah.

THE COURT: And if necessary, I will talk to your husband and see what the problem is.

JUROR NO. 2179: Okay.

THE COURT: Okay. Do I have your permission to do that?

JUROR NO. 2179: Sure, yes.

THE COURT: All right. 2179, anything else? Mr. Cochran, Miss Clark? Hold on. Don't go away.

(Brief pause.)

THE COURT: I'm also going to direct you not to discuss this with anybody else.

JUROR NO. 2179: Okay.

THE COURT: All right.

(Brief pause.)

THE COURT: Do you have an opinion as to why these deputies were reassigned?

JUROR NO. 2179: No.

THE COURT: All right. I'm also going to order you not to speculate as to what those reasons might have been. Okay?

JUROR NO. 2179: Okay.

THE COURT: Thanks a lot.

JUROR NO. 2179: Okay. Thank you.

(Juror no. 2179 exits chambers.)

(brief pause.)

MR. COCHRAN: May I make a suggestion? With regard to talking to her husband, I think one of the things you are saying is, whatever you want to call it, that if there is an emergency in the family, obviously we need to know that.

THE COURT: I will add that in.

MR. COCHRAN: Puts Sergeant "J" in the same position, Stockholm Syndrome.

THE COURT: I will call.

THE CLERK: Juror 795.

(Juror no. 795 enters chambers.)

THE COURT: Juror 795, good morning.

JUROR NO. 795: Good morning.

THE COURT: How are you today?

JUROR NO. 795: Pretty good. Thank you.

THE COURT: Better?

JUROR NO. 795: Oh, yes. Thank you.

THE COURT: 795, the reason I called you in is last week I made a decision to reassign three of the sheriff's deputies who were involved in the sequestration and I understand some of the jurors were unhappy about that. How did you feel about that?

JUROR NO. 795: Well, I was saddened to that effect also because I didn't know whether anything was said for their removal, and I wanted to speak on their behalf, because they were such good deputies. Deputy "I", Deputy "B" and Deputy "A", I didn't see anything wrong what they have done. They acted very professional and they were also kind, and me myself personally, I felt very close to them, so I was really saddened when I heard that, but I didn't know for what reason or why they were removed.

THE COURT: How did you find out about their reassignment?

JUROR NO. 795: One of the jurors had mentioned something that they were off duty or something. I heard them speak about it.

THE COURT: Uh-huh. What was your reaction to that?

JUROR NO. 795: I couldn't believe it. I said, "Why?" And she didn't know. The person that said it, they didn't know why. They just know that they weren't there any more.

THE COURT: Did you see a group of jurors in the TV room that night crying about this?

JUROR NO. 795: I saw one juror crying. I was coming from the gym, I had been working out, so when I came--no, maybe I was coming back from dinner. I think I was coming from dinner and one of the jurors were in the TV room crying and so I thought maybe her mother or somebody died and I was sort of concerned, and that is when I really found out what really happened, because I didn't know anything.

THE COURT: What do you think really happened?

JUROR NO. 795: To be honest, I don't know. I could speculate, but--

THE COURT: What is your best speculation at this point?

JUROR NO. 795: Maybe someone said something negative about maybe they didn't like their personality or something. That is about the best I can go with that, you know, because like I said before, some people look at people in a different way, you know, and not really--may be a little more sensitive than others. Someone may say something and they mistake it, take it the wrong way or something, but I have never seen nothing like that happen before.

THE COURT: All right. Is there anything about the manner in which this came about that is going to cause you any problems being a fair juror in this case?

JUROR NO. 795: No, because I spoke with some of the jurors about that. I told them that we shouldn't lose focus on what we are here for, and you know, I'm not here for a bunch of petty stuff. I'm just here to do what I have to do, you know, and that we should keep in mind we are here, you know, and things may happen periodically while we are here, so to get our mind back on track why we are here and so this is a serious matter, and so they seemed to listen to that and everything seemed to start getting back to normal.

THE COURT: All right. When did this discussion take place?

JUROR NO. 795: I guess it was Friday, when we first found out the lady was crying, you know, because I mean I was sad, too, but like I said, well, everyone is sad, but we can't forget about why we are here, you know, because I mean, anything--you might just decide to remove someone else, you know, for whatever reason, I don't know. But we have to remember that and we have to keep our mind focused on why we are here. I said I didn't come here to meet any friends or buddies, but it would be nice if you met someone nice along the way, but I am not here for that. I am here to do a job and that is what I try to keep my mind focused on.

THE COURT: How many people were a part of this discussion?

JUROR NO. 795: Well, maybe about two or three, the lady that was crying and I can't remember the other two ladies, because I was just so surprised.

THE COURT: Have you gotten over that at this point?

JUROR NO. 795: I have. I think a few other people have also. I mean, it doesn't seem like it is as tense and it was.

THE COURT: Okay. That is the sense I seem to have today.

JUROR NO. 795: Uh-huh.

THE COURT: All right. Do you have any feeling about the group of jurors that might have complained about the deputies who have been reassigned?

JUROR NO. 795: In what way? I don't understand what you--

THE COURT: Is there any tension or animosity between you and those other jurors?

JUROR NO. 795: No. I have no problem with anyone. Like I said before when I spoke with you, if I have a problem, I don't tell everybody about it, I just to go that person and try and work it out, and it has worked for me.

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

JUROR NO. 795: Other people, I don't know their solution of solving problems, but I usually go to the person instead of going to--telling everybody about the problem, because this creates a larger problem, and talk to that person one-on-one and find out what the problem or what the reason why they said what they said or whatever the case may be, and it works well for me, rather than trying to scandalize someone's name. I don't like to do that.

THE COURT: All right. Do you recall who you were with during the course of that discussion that you need to stay focused and not get distracted by this situation?

JUROR NO. 795: Let's see, the lady that was crying, I think it was--I know her name.

THE COURT: What is her first name?

JUROR NO. 795: Juror no. 1492.

THE COURT: Is that 1492?

JUROR NO. 795: Yeah, that is her name, 1492. She was really upset, and you know, like I said, I--you know, when I heard about it, I was upset, but I mean, I wasn't upset where I'm going to cry and lose track of what I'm here for.

THE COURT: Who else was there, besides you and 1492?

JUROR NO. 795: Juror no. 1386, I forget her number--the blond.

THE COURT: 1386?

JUROR NO. 795: Yeah.

THE COURT: Okay. And i can't place the other lady. I mean, you know, those two I can remember because they were the only two in the room at the time when we were coming back from lunch, and so I noticed her crying, so I thought maybe something happened in the family, you know, so I went in concerned and that is when I found out more about this.


JUROR NO. 795: A removal of the deputies.

THE COURT: Since you came to court on Friday and I started talking to the other jurors, has there been any other discussion about this situation?

JUROR NO. 795: No, not that I know of--noticed.

THE COURT: All right. How has the situation been among the jurors Saturday, Sunday and today?

JUROR NO. 795: Actually everyone seemed to be happier now. I don't know whether it is because maybe they got a load off their shoulders. I don't know what the situation is, but they seemed to be happier, they are getting along better. Yeah, that is the exact--you know, I didn't see any problems myself.

THE COURT: Okay. Is there anything about this whole situation the last several days that is going to cause you to favor one side or another in this case?

JUROR NO. 795: No, because like I stated at the beginning, you know, I was very honest, and you know, I'm still honest, you know, I want to weigh the evidence and be fair about it, because I know this is a serious matter. And if it was my life at stake, I would want someone to do that with me, so that is my way of thinking and that is why I was telling the couple of people I talked to, I said, "Don't lose focus on why we are here. You know, this is a serious matter. Let's keep our mind focused on what we are here for." That really helped a lot, but no, it is nothing--because I mean anything could happen. And we were told that from day one, you know, anything is subject to change, so I kept my mind stabled on that, and like I said, I didn't come here to meet buddies. I am here for a special reason, for this, and all this petty stuff, you know, I don't have time for that, you know.

THE COURT: I recollect on Friday you were wearing black?

JUROR NO. 795: Yes. A couple of people asked me to wear it.

THE COURT: Who asked you to wear it?

JUROR NO. 795: You know, I hate to say who, because I may be--you know, at the time, you know, whoever told me, I can't remember the exact--I have a number in my mind, but I don't want to say it if it is someone else, because I can't really recall exactly who told me, but it was about two people that told me, and this is in my mind, but then I don't want to say the wrong number and then I be mistaken in someone else.

THE COURT: Well, who do you think it was?

JUROR NO. 795: I think it was 353 or--yeah, who did tell me to wear--oh, no, it was--scratch her name. It was Juror no. 1427, I don't know her number, the girl with the long black hair, sort of thin.

THE COURT: 1427?

JUROR NO. 795: Yes. I think she was the one. Don't quote me. I think, but I'm not sure.

THE COURT: You think, but you are not sure?

JUROR NO. 795: Yeah, right.


(Brief pause.)

JUROR NO. 795: So the only purpose I wore the black for was the respect of the deputies, because I feel in my mind, you know, to show that we really cared and they were good deputies and that was my motive for wearing the black.

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

JUROR NO. 795: But anything else I don't know about, but in my heart that is what I wore it for. After they asked me to wear it, I said sure, you know. I liked them. They were good deputies.

THE COURT: The people that you were talking to in the TV room about losing focus and needing to stay focused, did it seem to you that they were distracted by too many other things?

JUROR NO. 795: Now it is coming back. The guy, Juror no. 19, he was the other guy, yeah, I told him.


JUROR NO. 795: They were losing focus, and you know like me, I'm not a petty person and I don't--you know, I like to just take care of business, and I saw they were sort of losing it, so I said, "Hey, you guys we are not here for all this. I mean I'm sorry, too, but let's get together here and remember why we are here. We didn't come here for this." I mean, we are all sad, but you know, in all due respect to you, Judge, you know, we know that you are capable of making the decisions you have to make, so I--you know, you have to deal with that.

THE COURT: All right. All right. 795, I'm going to order you not to speculate as to any of the reasons why this has occurred, the reassignment of the deputies. You are also ordered not the discuss this with anybody else. Mr. Cochran, did you have anything else? Miss Clark?

MR. COCHRAN: No, your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. 795, thank you very much.

JUROR NO. 795: Okay. You are welcome.

(Juror no. 795 exits chambers.)

(brief pause.)

THE CLERK: Juror 1386.

(Juror no. 1386 enters chambers.)

JUROR NO. 1386: Good morning.

THE COURT: Sit down, sit down. I see we are not wearing black today?

JUROR NO. 1386: No. Starting a new week out here.

THE COURT: Are we better today?

JUROR NO. 1386: Umm, I'm fine.

THE COURT: Okay. Last week I reassigned, asked the sheriff's department to reassign three of the deputies involved. And I understand that that is something that you were upset about. Can you tell me about that?

JUROR NO. 1386: Yes. Basically I'm just wanted to express how unhappy I am with the decision of the removal of those three.

THE COURT: All right.

JUROR NO. 1386: Seeing as how I'm not allowed to speculate, I have no idea why, and I just know that these three are gone and I--they were there--like all the other deputies, for me, you know, just as professional, so I just wanted to express that. I was happy with them.

THE COURT: Uh-huh. Was there anything about their conduct that you felt was in any way unprofessional or would justify their removal?

JUROR NO. 1386: Unprofessional?


JUROR NO. 1386: No.

THE COURT: How did you become aware that those three deputies had been reassigned?

JUROR NO. 1386: Umm, whenever we--let's see. What day was it? Was it Thursday? Okay. Thursday we were at court and then, umm, one of the people says where is--"Where is "I" today?" "I don't know," and then what I assume, they were probably having to run errands or something. We just kind of noticed, and umm, then we were in the elevator to go up to our rooms, somebody asked to Deputy "T", where is one--one of them, I don't remember which one they asked, and then he said, "These three are no longer working at this assignment." That was it.

THE COURT: Nobody said anything else?

JUROR NO. 1386: No. One person said, well, what happened, and he is like, "I can't say any more," and so we just dropped it. By that time we were upset, we were like wow.

THE COURT: I understand that some of the jurors were very upset about this and that there was some gathering in one of the TV rooms. Can you tell me about that?

JUROR NO. 1386: Yes. Just sitting there quiet and kind of going between tears in your eyes and going, wow, you know, wondering what happened, but none of us know, and that is about it.

THE COURT: All right. I understand that you and another one of the jurors, 1492, were comforting each other over this situation?

JUROR NO. 1386: Yes, because she was very upset, and she really liked them, and you know, wasn't afraid to ask any of them for let's go here, let's go there, and umm, we were just--I was kind of with her eyes watering up and she was upset and my eyes--I get a little lump in my throat like, gosh. And we are not happy with the situation anyways, being sequestered, and then to know that three that you start getting comfortable with are not going to be here, the same with some of the other ones, too. You just grow somewhat of a bond.

THE COURT: Is there something about that situation or the whole situation about the reassignment of the deputies and the way some of the other jurors have reacted to it that is going to cause you problems being a fair juror in this case?

JUROR NO. 1386: No, that wouldn't be the problem. I just felt like I wanted to express to you or the Court, you know, that I was upset of their not being there.

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

JUROR NO. 1386: Because you asked me questions, you know, the week before, and I am--I am not a rocket scientist, but you don't have to be one to kind of say, well, gosh, why are these questions being asked? Is someone complaining? So I don't know who or what, but like I said, I just felt like I wanted to say that I thought they did a good job, like all the other ones.

THE COURT: All right. Since these deputies have been reassigned have there been any new tensions between any groups of others?

JUROR NO. 1386: No new ones. I mean, I don't think any new ones. Just the same.

THE COURT: Same things we talked about the last time?

JUROR NO. 1386: Yes, uh-huh.

THE COURT: All right. Anything about this situation that is going to cause you to be distracted from being able to concentrate on the evidence that is being presented here in court?

JUROR NO. 1386: Well, I feel better now just being able to tell you how I felt. Just like once before when I came in here, it really helped just when you get upset about something and you can't let it out, and then you want to tell somebody.

THE COURT: All right. Do you feel that there is anything about this situation that will cause you to favor one side over the other?

JUROR NO. 1386: No, because--no. I wouldn't know, you know--no.

THE COURT: Is there anything about this situation that will make it difficult for you to work with any of the other jurors?

JUROR NO. 1386: Why do I have to work with them?

THE COURT: Well, when we get down, after the evidence has been presented, and then the jury will have to deliberate, so you will have to sit down in a room and discuss the case with other jurors. Do you think you are going to have any problems doing that?

JUROR NO. 1386: I don't--I just have my opinion and I will have to stand up for my opinion, you know, and I have never been in deliberation--I don't know how it is. I don't know what it is like. You know, I don't know.

THE COURT: Are you able to--I guess the real question is are you able to set aside all of these other side issues and concentrate solely on the evidence that is presented here in court and conduct the deliberations based upon the law that I give you and the evidence that has been presented? Do you think you will have any problem doing that and setting aside all these other distractions?

JUROR NO. 1386: I would do my best. I hope I could. I shared with you some of the stuff that was said, you know, and I don't know what it is going to end up being as far as if there is going to be tension or whatever.

THE COURT: Uh-huh. Well, in any difficult decision that has to be made there is also some tension and competing opinions, but do you think you can set aside any of the problems that everyone has had before and approach all of this with an open mind? Can do you that?

JUROR NO. 1386: Yes, I can.

THE COURT: Okay. All right. Also, 1386, I'm going to order you not to speculate as to the reason that those deputies were resigned. That has nothing to do with the facts and circumstances of this case. I'm also going to order you not to discuss our discussions here in chambers with anybody else. Okay?

JUROR NO. 1386: Okay. Can I just add one more comment that I heard from 165?


JUROR NO. 1386: About--


JUROR NO. 1386: About maybe two weeks ago, because you kind of mentioned to me, well, maybe try and stay away from these individuals, or you know, to hopefully not have to deal with anything. And I was just up at the 11th floor and went to go get a cartoon of milk for my cereal in the morning first thing, eight o'clock, and as I'm going to the refrigerator and getting something, I'm hearing 165 telling 1489, 1233 and 453, "Yeah, the segregation around here has got to stop, you know, it is just getting too segregated," and I remember those distinctively, because I was there--just there for a brief second and I'm hearing this part of it, so I went and sat down.

THE COURT: Is there anything that causes you to believe that there is any segregation here?

JUROR NO. 1386: No. That is why it--you know, when I hear that, I'm like what is he talking about? And he was referring it to here, so no, there is not. That is what is just the most ironic thing and that is what makes me feel like I want to tell you, because the majority of us get along beautifully. I mean, we all have that person gets on your nerves that one day, but I mean, that is nothing, but I'm just thinking like comments like this are kind of deep.

THE COURT: Okay. All right. 1386, thank you very much for sharing all this with me. Hold on don't go away just yet. Mr. Cochran, Miss Clark?


THE COURT: All right. 1386, thank you very much.

(Juror no. 1386 exits chambers.)

THE COURT: All right. 1386 has left. I just wanted the record to reflect that during the course of all of these discussions I have received dozens of small written notes from Defense counsel on two-and-a-half-by-two-and-a-half post-it notes, and I have asked many, if not all of those questions. In fact, I think I have only declined to ask about three these of questions so far, out of the perhaps fifty that have been suggested to me, and that should be part of the record. All right. Why don't you have a seat, counsel. Let's take a break, but we have now completed all thirteen of the jurors who have asked to speak to the Court.

MS. CLARK: You want us to stay?

THE COURT: Let's just take a break and then we will come back and discuss what we have.

MR. COCHRAN: Thank you, Judge.

THE COURT: And then I will need some time to go through my notes and go through the transcripts to prepare my discussion with the sheriff's deputies, which I plan on starting at 1:30. But let's take a break for about ten or fifteen minutes and let's come back and talk about the situation we have here.

MS. CLARK: Did you say 1:30?

MR. COCHRAN: What time do you want us back?

THE COURT: Let's just take a break for ten or fifteen minutes, just a comfort break.


THE COURT: Okay. Back on the record in chambers with counsel, Mr. Cochran, Mr. Shapiro, Miss Clark, Mr. Darden. Also present, Jo-Ellan Dimitrius and Commander Holland and Court staff. Counsel, that concludes our inquiry with the jurors who have asked to speak to the Court again. Mrs. Robertson, were there any other requests to speak to the Court?

THE CLERK: No, your Honor.

THE COURT: Have you made inquiry this morning?

THE CLERK: No, I didn't. This is as of Friday. I will do so.

THE COURT: Why don't you check and see if anyone else wants to talk to the Court.

(Mrs. Robertson complies.)

(brief pause.)

THE CLERK: Your Honor, juror 1489 would like to speak to the Court.

THE COURT: All right. Why don't you have him come in.

(Juror no. 1489 enters chambers.)

THE COURT: Good morning, 1489.

JUROR NO. 1489: Hi.

THE COURT: How are you today?

JUROR NO. 1489: Okay.

THE COURT: Good. Mrs. Robertson indicated that you wish to speak to the Court.

JUROR NO. 1489: I was just curious as to why there was only part of the jurors called in.

THE COURT: It's not for you to speculate. Those persons have asked to speak to me.

JUROR NO. 1489: Oh, okay.

THE COURT: Individually asked to speak to me.

JUROR NO. 1489: No. I just thought they was going to call everybody, but they were just excluding certain people. But this is just--

THE COURT: No. People have written me notes, asked to speak to me. If you recall, I indicated last time we were here, any time there's something somebody needs to talk to me about--

JUROR NO. 1489: I'm not having a problem.

THE COURT: Okay. Anything else?

JUROR NO. 1489: (No audible response.)

THE COURT: All right. Thank you, sir.

JUROR NO. 1489: All right.

(Juror no. 1489 exits chambers.)

THE COURT: All right. Juror 1489 has withdrawn. Counsel, my inclination now is to speak--go ahead and sit down--is to speak to the sheriff's deputies who were involved, "B", "I" and "A". And let me just find my notes here. And my inclination at this point is to ask them specific questions regarding the allegations by specific jurors. For example, ask Deputy "I" to--get her comment on the incident where juror number 6 said he was out lying on a bench and suddenly Deputy "I" ran up to him, ordered him to get up off the bench and to move.

MR. COCHRAN: Even before that, he was stopped when the white lady walked past.

THE COURT: So I will make inquiry of the various deputies as to the specific allegations and see if there's any explanation as to how that occurred and get their side of each one of those incidents. That's what I plan on doing starting at 1:30. I'm also advised that the Alads counsel will be here, will be available to advise and consult with the deputies while they're here.

As to the shopping incident, I understand the two deputies who were involved in that were deputies "C" and "H", who have been not--who have not been named by any of the jurors as having any problems with anybody. But I thought I would have "C" and "H" come in to chat with us about how the Ross, Target shopping trip was arranged since they were the ones in charge of timing for the individual shopping groups. So that's what I plan on doing. Any comments, suggestions, recommendations, objections?

MR. COCHRAN: Well, we have no objections to the procedure. When it's all over, I think maybe--I would like for us to prepare something maybe in writing, recommendation to the Court.


MR. COCHRAN: How we go from here. And we have a motion on file. Actually, you'll remember that we never set it, but you said you did receive it. So we may want to make some recommendation. We would like to think about it overnight, let you finish. We already have a motion filed.

MR. DARDEN: Judge, with respect to the three deputies, would you be inclined to ask them about their relationship with the complaining jurors, whether they've had problems?

THE COURT: Yes. Sure. I mean that's part and parcel of the inquiry.

MR. COCHRAN: Judge, are you going to ask--

MS. CLARK: Open-ended?


MR. COCHRAN: Are you going to ask Deputy "B" about this report in the Pasadena, San Gabriel paper, alleged conversation?

THE COURT: Yes. The sheriff's department is vehemently denying that he had any contact with that individual.

(At 11:00 A.M., the noon recess was taken until 1:30 P.M. of the same day.)


department no. 103 Hon. Lance A. Ito, Judge

APPEARANCES: (Appearances as heretofore noted; also present, Richard A. Shinee, Esquire, representing the sheriff's deputies.)

(Janet M. Moxham, CSR no. 4855, official reporter.)

(Christine M. Olson, CSR no. 2378, official reporter.)

(The following proceedings were held in camera:)

THE COURT: We've got one attorney for each side. So let's get started here. We're in chambers. We have Mr. Shapiro, Mr. Darden, and, counsel, I don't know your name.

MR. SHINEE: Richard Shinee, S-H-I-N-E-E.

THE COURT: And you're with Alads; is that correct?

MR. SHINEE: That's correct.

THE COURT: Also present is Patrick Holland, commander for the sheriff's department. Counsel, what I propose to do, and commander, is bring in the sheriff's deputies who are most intimately involved in these proceedings thus far and ask them regarding--any comment that they might have regarding specific instances that have been raised with the Court. And let me go over them briefly with you. Specifically regarding Deputy "I", the incident related by Juror no. 247, that he was relaxing on the patio, was approached by Deputy "I" and told in a very abrupt manner to move quickly; the allegation by 247 also that the black jurors were watched by Deputy "I" more closely than the other jurors and the complaint by ******************.

With regards to Deputy "B", the Court will inquire into the allegation that he drove too fast, scared the dickens out of some of the jurors, that he watched the black jurors more closely than the others and had a bad attitude while addressing the black jurors.

As to Deputy "A", the allegation that videos were scheduled in a manner that was unfavorable to the black jurors, that the black jurors were not allowed to use the gym at certain times and that Deputy "A" watched the black jurors more closely than the white jurors. I'm going to talk to Sergeant "J" regarding the allegations that certain jurors were not given notice of outings, that unconsented searches of the rooms took place, that there has been unmonitored use of the telephones, that the black jurors are watched more closely than others and then the famous Target, Ross shopping incident. And in that regard, I'm also going to talk to Deputy "C" and Deputy "H", who I understand were actually in charge of the groups that afternoon and ask them for their comment on that, though I understand Deputy "H" has a day off today and will not have a chance to talk to us. Mr. Cochran.

MR. COCHRAN: With regard to Sergeant "J"--I asked Deirdre to talk to him--is it possible if you can ask him about what was said to the jurors on Thursday at least by him, you know, with regard to what--the crying and what led--what was said from an official standpoint about deputies either being dismissed or removed or reassigned; and also, can you query him, since he seems to be the coordinator, as to his thinking now in the future as to heading off some of these problems? I have in mind what was said throughout the hearings, that jurors in the back room felt they weren't getting snacks and basically according to 165, "J" says, "Look, the Judge has nothing to do with this. We'll handle this." And then--the point I guess I'm making is, if that is true, probably a lot of this could have been headed off if he had talked to these jurors and talked to you rather, rather anticipated this. Whether or not--if that really is--in fact, you told them--I remember you told the juror you buy the snacks. This was a lingering problem which got resolved. But if he sees problems, maybe we can deal with them quicker, you know, with some of these problems.

THE COURT: All right. Mr. Shinee, Commander Holland, any comment?

MR. SHINEE: Judge, I didn't get all the remarks you made about Mr. "A", the accusations.

THE COURT: The accusation was disparity and treatment between the two video rooms--Dr. Dimitrius, you're going to have to excuse us. As far as Deputy "A" is concerned, the disparity in video scheduling, the complaint by juror 1233 that the black jurors were not allowed to use the gym facilities and that the black jurors were watched more closely than the white jurors. Those are the specific allegations regarding Deputy "A".

MR. SHINEE: Will you outline each of these for them when they first come in?

THE COURT: Yes. It's my intention to tell them what the issue is and ask if they have any comment or explanation for that particular incident.


MR. HOLLAND: Will they be able to expound on any--

THE COURT: In general, I am going to ask them if they have any other observations and I am going to ask them if they have any explanation as to any of the particular jurors who are making these accusations as to why this might be happening. All right? Dr. Dimitrius, you're going to have to change chairs again. I need Mrs. Robertson going in and out to get people. You're just picking the wrong place here. All right. Miss Clark, you have a quizzical look.

MS. CLARK: I don't know why Dr. Dimitrius has to be here for the sheriff's deputies.

THE COURT: She doesn't. But as a courtesy, I'm going to allow her to stay unless there's a vehement objection. If you want to bring in your witch doctor, you're welcome to do so, not that it would make any difference at this point because we got what we got.

MS. CLARK: No. No vehement objection. Off the record.

(An off the record discussion was held.)

THE COURT: I'm going to ask Deputy "B" if he made any comment to the Star News because I am curious about that comment.

MR. COCHRAN: Do you have the comment, Judge?

THE COURT: It was a very--it was, quote, "Some of their comments may be right. Some of the jurors may be right about those things," something very vague, that--

MR. SHAPIRO: Does the reporter indicate when she spoke to the deputy?

MR. COCHRAN: I think she said on Friday. I don't know. She said she also tried to talk to him on Saturday I think. I tried to reach her during the lunch hour and missed her.

THE COURT: There's a lot of people who have tried to reach her, and she has not returned anybody's phone calls, which is unusual for a newspaper reporter. All right. I propose to start with Deputy "I". So let's have "I", please.

(Deputy "I" enters chambers.)

THE COURT: Good afternoon, Deputy "I".

DEPUTY "I": Afternoon.

THE COURT: This afternoon, I have a number of questions that I need to ask you, and these are questions that I have formulated after talking to a number of our jurors. And this is an informal discussion here to allow me to better handle our jury and the problems that have been created; and I'm going to tell you the areas that I'm going to inquire into, and I would like to hear your observations because there are always two sides to every story. One incident involves ***********.

A second case--excuse me--second incident had to do with Juror no. 247, seat no. 6, where he indicated he was out at the hotel patio reclining on a bench, and he indicated that you ran up to him in a very excited manner and ordered him to immediately get up and move; and his allegation is that you were unprofessional in the manner in which you spoke with him and that there was no apparent need in his mind to be moved in the manner in which he was. There's a general allegation that the black jurors were watched or surveilled by the sheriff's deputies more so than the others and there's an allegation that ****************.

All right. I would like to hear first your comment regarding the incident

THE COURT: Okay. As to this patio incident with 247, do you recollect any incident like that?

DEPUTY "I": Yes.

THE COURT: Tell me about that.

DEPUTY "I": We were out on the patio. ***********************************. And what I try and do is watch. I know that the jurors are not supposed to be in any kind of cameras at all, and I watch to make sure no one is taking pictures of the jurors. And instead of approaching--I try to approach the person, ask them to take their camera to a different location, try to ask them to take their pictures towards another area. Then I figure this is--they can take their picture, that's fine. We'll just move because we are kind of--we are the ones with the special needs. I actually had juror 247 move twice because it seemed like wherever he went, that's where the people want to get him right in the background of their picture. And maybe it was over cautious on my part, but I certainly wouldn't want the jurors, any of the jurors to appear on the front page of any tabloid or anything on my shift. So I asked him to move so that he was out of the way of the people taking pictures, they could take their picture and he could sit on another bench. I figured that would work out best for everyone. I was just trying to protect him from being put in a picture. They may look like tourists, but you never know what the media is up to.

THE COURT: Any urgency in moving him?

DEPUTY "I": I wanted to get to him before the picture was taken, but I don't believe I ran over there, rushed over there. I mean it's a big area. So I'm sure I walked quickly over there trying to get to him before he was in the picture. I wouldn't want to have to say to someone on vacation to give me their film because they happened to get a juror on camera. I mean it was just--I was trying to do it the easiest way for all of us for his protection, keep him out of the picture and so the tourist could go ahead and, you know, enjoy their vacation.

THE COURT: Do you think there's anything about the manner in which you approached him--excuse me just a second.

(Brief pause.)

THE COURT: Anything about the manner in which you approached him that might be considered to be abrupt or rude?

DEPUTY "I": I don't think there was. It sure wasn't my intention if he perceived it that way. He was very upset with me for moving him. He was very angry that I had--his eyes were closed, he was lying on a bench and I don't think I awoke him, but I probably disturbed his peace.

THE COURT: Startled him?

DEPUTY "I": Startled him. He seemed annoyed. I did disturb his peace, and I didn't intend to be rude to him and I don't think that I was. But he was not happy with me at all. I mean that was apparent. So--

THE COURT: Did you relay this to any supervisor?

DEPUTY "I": No, I didn't. It was on a Saturday and there--I didn't--I mean, I was busy and it just didn't seem that important. He was upset with me, but I didn't think it was--you know, things happen. I didn't think I was overly rude to him. I didn't think it was a negative contact that was big enough to--like the going in the room thing, I definitely wanted to talk to Sergeant "J" about that. This I didn't think was a big deal to tell you the truth. I was just trying to do the job.

THE COURT: How would you characterize your relationship over the three months with 247?

DEPUTY "I": Some days it's good and we'll talk and some days he--247 doesn't want to be here in my opinion. He doesn't like being told what to do by us and I can understand that. So--and he's a loner as far as he sits alone at dinner and stuff. And I respect his space more than anything and I tried to not to inflict a lot of rules. I try not to be right there next to him. I try and give him his space a little bit and I respect the man. I mean, he seems to be on his own and he doesn't really bother people. He reads his paper at breakfast and I just try and respect that, give him his space. I didn't think I had a total negative contact with him. I mean, I know he's been upset with that incident and there's been instances on the phone where he would like to dial his bank himself and stuff like that, and, you know, sometimes we've got to say, "No, this is what we have to do, these are the rules." And he may not really like it, but he seems fine a little while later. People have their good days and bad days. So--

THE COURT: All right. With regards to ***, how would you characterize your relationship with ***?

THE COURT: Okay. Going back to 247, this incident in the patio, moving him quickly, did you explain to him at the time that he was being moved why you had to move him?

DEPUTY "I": Yes. I'm sure I was concise about it, "They're taking a picture. You are in the background of their picture. Could you move, please," and that would have been it. I didn't really--I didn't sit down and say, you know, "I'm just trying to keep you out of the newspaper," and stuff like that. He was angry with me, and he moved and I just let him have his space. I guess maybe I could have gone into a more detailed explanation, but we had at that time 19 people to watch in this big area and I personally went about watching the others.

THE COURT: Do you recall any incident with 247 where he was out walking around the patio and stopping him from progressing to allow other jurors to pass?

DEPUTY "I": No, I don't.

THE COURT: Can you think of any reason why any group of jurors that we have here--and you're pretty familiar with all of them by now--why they would feel that their treatment by you has been hostile in some manner?

DEPUTY "I": No, I can't. I have tried to be fair and treat them all the same. I can't think of any certain--you know, I know there is a group that separates themselves and I think that's what we're discussing here. And no. I tried to talk to them and, you know, I've talked about bowling with one of them and I've done my best to make everyone feel that I'm approachable.

THE COURT: With which juror did you discuss bowling?

DEPUTY "I": 1489.

THE COURT: Any other comments? Do you have anything you wish to say, deputy?

DEPUTY "I": Well, I haven't had a lot of fun the last couple of weeks, but I would like to say that I value this experience. And most of the jurors have been wonderful and I've done my best to be fair and I put a lot of extra time into it. So just that. It hasn't been a totally negative experience for me, even the way it ended. I'll always remember it.

THE COURT: All right. Thank you very much, deputy.

(A discussion was held off the record.)

THE COURT: All right. Deputy "I", thank you very much for coming in.

(Deputy "I" exits chambers.)

THE COURT: Mrs. Robertson, could I have Deputy "B", please.

(Deputy "B" enters chambers.)

THE CLERK: Deputy "B".

THE COURT: Deputy "B", how are you? Come on in.

DEPUTY "B": Pretty good. How are you?

THE COURT: Good afternoon, deputy. What we're doing here today is, I'm asking questions of certain of our bailiffs regarding certain issues that have arisen concerning our sequestered jury. And after talking to all the jurors, some of them--at least all of them at least once and some of them twice, there are some things, specifics that I would like to talk to you about. First of all, there was a complaint about you concerning your driving that was considered to be inappropriate and even dangerous to some respects. There's an allegation that in the course of your monitoring the jurors, that you paid closer attention to African America jurors than the others. There's an allegation that you had a generally bad attitude towards the African America jurors.

And there's one other area that I want to go into with you concerning any comment that you might have made regarding your participation as a deputy to the Star News recently or a reporter from the Star News. And let me start with that. Do you recall talking to any newspaper reporters regarding this?

DEPUTY "B": Absolutely not.

THE COURT: And, Mr. Cochran, I am sorry. What was the name of the--

DEPUTY "B": I've got it right here, your Honor. Torrey Richard and Cathy Brayhill.

THE COURT: Have you spoken to either of those individuals?


THE COURT: Is there--I mean, do you have any messages to return to them or have they attempted to contact you directly in any way?

DEPUTY "B": Not that I know of. There's no messages on my answering machine at home. You know, that's the only way they could leave a message for me.

THE COURT: All right. Is there any comment that you might have made since we last talked that might have been construed in any way by anybody similar to the reports that have been attributed to you?


THE COURT: Can you think of any way a comment like that could have been attributed to you?

DEPUTY "B": No. I did not say anything remotely close to any of the comments or the quotes that were in any of the articles that I read.

THE COURT: Okay. With regards to the driving comment, do you know of any instance--the specific incident that the jurors complained about was going in and out of the hotel parking lot because of the unusual arrangements, parking arrangements there, and they were very concerned about a couple of near accidents and the speed.

DEPUTY "B": I've never had a near accident with another vehicle. I may have gone through the garage faster than normal, but I was told to slow it down, and I did.

THE COURT: How long ago was that?

DEPUTY "B": A month and a half.

THE COURT: Okay. With regards to the watching of the jurors, what were your normal duties as far as monitoring them during their activities? What were your instructions generally?

DEPUTY "B": It totally depends on what the situation was. If we were in the hotel, really there's--there's no monitoring except for when we were in the phone room or when we were in the movie room or the gym. I don't know how to respond to that, you know. If I'm in the phone room, I have a job to do and I just do it. Whoever comes in that room is getting monitored by--you know, whatever they're talking on the phone about.

THE COURT: Can you think of anything that you might have done that could have been interpreted by somebody that you were paying more attention to the African America jurors than others?

DEPUTY "B": I have no idea. I would need some examples, places, that kind of thing to really--

THE COURT: Out on the patio area?

DEPUTY "B": The only ones that I watched more closely were the ones who were walking around the open area of the patio. If a juror was going to sit still and just stay there, yeah, I would probably pay less attention to them. If they're moving, I would pay more attention to them because obviously there's more--there's increased liability. They may come in contact with somebody and, you know, there were times where I thought somebody was trying to make contact with them and I would have to go over and stand next to them, you know, and not try and be too intruding. But at the same time, I had to make sure they didn't converse with these people.

THE COURT: Will you explain how that comes about? Tell me about that.

DEPUTY "B": Well, the patio is a public area, you know, and if somebody comes out in that public area, we can't--we can't just kick that person off the patio. We can't identify ourselves to them and tell them who we are. Plus there's two separate patios. There's one that's the normal one that was off the dining room. There was another one which was much larger. It's on the south side of the hotel, doesn't belong to the hotel. It's got the ******** and the ********** and it was obviously a bigger area and we had to, you know, watch the jurors. It had a much larger area to walk, much more people involved. And if it were near lunch time, there was more people. We try to keep it in the morning time when there's less people out.

THE COURT: Had there ever been any complaints been made to you about any special surveillance with any particular jurors? Any juror ever complain to you about this?

DEPUTY "B": I was told to--I was told maybe once or twice to keep an eye on 602 because he would push the outer boundary when he was running around the large patio. He would like to go as far as he could to the outer perimeters and run. And so I would keep a close eye on him because, you know, it's not an oval, it's not a square. You know, it has a different dimension. It has nooks and crannies to the outside and he could run through the cracks. But other than that, no.

THE COURT: Was there ever--I mean did 602 make any complaints to you that you were surveilling him too closely or--

DEPUTY "B": Never.

THE COURT: Any other juror ever complain to you that they felt you were watching them too closely?

DEPUTY "B": Never.

THE COURT: How about in the card room where the jurors played dominoes? Anybody complain about your watching the jurors who played dominoes anymore than anyone else?

DEPUTY "B": Never.

THE COURT: All right. Can you think of any reason that any of the jurors would feel that you had a bad attitude towards African America jurors?

DEPUTY "B": No. I couldn't give you a reason. You know, the only thing I can think of--you mentioned the card room. You know, our policy had changed kind of about the card room. At first, they wanted a deputy in a room that was open every single time. Eventually what we did was, we had a deputy go back and forth between the movie room and the card room. You know, we kind of lightened up on it because our resources started thinning out. We had deputies going on doctor runs, dentist runs, bank runs and we had to juggle the two rooms, and maybe they construed that as being less or more from the beginning. I don't know. That's a guess at best.

THE COURT: Tell me about that. Tell me why you felt that was necessary.

DEPUTY "B": What was necessary?

THE COURT: The change, the surveillance or the deputy policy in those rooms?

DEPUTY "B": Because we were thin, we had to spread the deputies out more because of doctors, dentists and banks. It seemed to me once the jurors caught on to the fact that they could do these personal runs, they took more advantage of it as the opportunity came.

THE COURT: Other than Juror no. 602, whose room was searched at my direction, do you know of any other searches that had taken place?

DEPUTY "B": I don't know of any.

THE COURT: Deputy "B", don't go away. Let me ask you just to step out for a moment. I need to consult with the lawyers for a few minutes. But we're just about done.

(Deputy "B" exits chambers.)

THE COURT: I have a question here and I don't recognize the handwriting. Is this yours, Miss Clark, asking about the conflict between 1489, 1427 and 353, et cetera, et cetera, whether or not they observed anything? Do you really want to get into that at this point?


THE COURT: That's a separate inquiry.

MS. CLARK: Well, yes and no. I mean 1489, *** and 1233 are the ones that complained specifically about Deputy "B" and Deputy "I" and Deputy "A" and 165 actually too. So if we could get his views on the nature of their interaction and why--his belief why would he think they would complain about him, what has been the nature of their interaction.

THE COURT: And I was about to get to that. I've asked him the open-ended question, "Can you think of any reason why any African America jurors would feel this way toward you?"

MR. COCHRAN: That's a different question than interaction with the rest of the panel. You're right, that's a different question. But as to why they would want to pick on him is appropriate.

MS. CLARK: Just interaction with the other jurors. There have been--since he's here, I think it would be timesaving to find out if he's observed anything that the other jurors have complained about to us repeatedly. 1489's name comes up over and over again by all the jurors as somebody who is an agitator and a problem and I think it would be nice to find out if this deputy has observed it.

MR. COCHRAN: I take exception to that. I don't think that's appropriate.

THE COURT: I have to tell you, I'm interested in the allegations of misconduct by sheriff's deputies. That's what I'm interested in right now. That's the scope of our inquiry.

MR. COCHRAN: Just--I have a question. I don't know if you think it's appropriate. We heard talking to the jurors--this isn't so much in the nature of a complaint, but maybe we could get his comment on it. Certain jurors make a lot more requests. He alluded to us here that when jurors found out they could go on an outing to the bank to do the bank thing, they started doing it more and more, and I just wanted to get a sense from him, are a lot of jurors--

THE COURT: Are more demanding?

MR. COCHRAN: Yes. My sense was, 1492 apparently--remember she talked about she hates the food and one of those that likes to spend a lot of time in the gym. She said that. "A" is the one--only one she could talk to. I just wanted to ask--I'm sure there are people who make a lot of requests.

THE COURT: All right. Just so we understand what the scope is. Let's have Deputy "B" again.

(Deputy "B" enters chambers.)

THE COURT: All right. Deputy "B", just a few more questions for you. Are there any jurors amongst our group here that are more demanding than others as far as special privileges or trips or accommodations?

DEPUTY "B": I don't believe so. They all have their personal characteristics, you know. You know the ones who like to have their movie time. You know the ones who like their phone time. Other than that, they're basically all the same.

THE COURT: You haven't felt there's any one or two or any group of jurors who have been more demanding than others?

DEPUTY "B": More demanding? No. They have different demands, but not more demanding.

THE COURT: All right. Have there been any demands or requests that you haven't been able to accommodate?

DEPUTY "B": Well, when there's particular requests made, they normally don't come to me. I'm not the one that makes the decisions. That's a different deputy. If there's something they want and I can't do it right then and there, I refer them to the lead deputy or the sergeant, but I normally don't make the decisions.

THE COURT: All right. Deputy "B", is there anything that you feel you want to say or need to say at this point?


THE COURT: Are there any regular--who are the regular lead deputies?

DEPUTY "B": Deputy "H" and Deputy "C" are the lead deputies. If they are not there, it's Deputy "L". If Deputy "L" is not there, it's Deputy "I". At all times, one of those deputies--

THE COURT: Is there?

DEPUTY "B": --is there.

MR. DARDEN: May I have one moment, your Honor?


(Brief pause.)

THE COURT: Do I ever get to see this?

(Brief pause.)

THE COURT: Can you think--let me just so we're clear on this--can you think of any reason why any of the African America jurors would be unhappy with your services?

DEPUTY "B": Well, maybe. Obviously there's certain jurors who do like me and there are certain jurors who don't like me. I mean it's just personality. I don't know. Maybe they resent the fact that the other jurors do like me. That's about all I can come up with. I treat them all the same. If any juror asks me for something and I can do it, I do it without any facial expressions, without setting a mood. If I can't do the request, then I pass it along to another deputy. That's it.

THE COURT: Have you had any particular run-ins with, say, juror 1489?

DEPUTY "B": No, not really. I know that he dislikes me because I am in charge or I was in charge of the movies and that was one of his things that he liked, was the movies. And I think once I took control of the movie situation, he took it negatively even though I had nothing to do with it. I was just the one who administered the movies, put up the calendars and so forth. But I'm pretty sure he assumed that I was the reason for it.

THE COURT: Can you think of any reason why *** would be unhappy with you?

DEPUTY "B": I have no idea. I have very little contact with her.

THE COURT: How about 165?

DEPUTY "B": I would be surprised actually. I took 165 to the doctor's office one Saturday afternoon and seemed to me we had good conversation. I couldn't tell you what we talked about. It was just general.

THE COURT: How about 1233?

DEPUTY "B": I have no idea.

THE COURT: All right. All right. Deputy "B", any other--anything else you feel you need to say or want to say at this point?


THE COURT: Thank you very much for coming in.

(Deputy "B" exits chambers.)

THE COURT: Deputy "A", please.

(Deputy "A" enters chambers.)

THE CLERK: Deputy "A".

THE COURT: Good afternoon, Deputy "A".

DEPUTY "A": Good afternoon. How you doing?

THE COURT: Why don't you have a seat there. Deputy "A", I'm conducting an inquiry into certain issues that have arisen concerning the sequestered jury, and I have four general areas that I want to talk to you about. I have a complaint regarding--from African America jurors indicating that they feel that when they made requests to use the downstairs gym, that you refused to allow them to use it while making accommodations for the non-African America jurors to use the gym facilities. There was a complaint that you were somehow involved in videotape scheduling and there was some controversy about that and a general allegation that in monitoring the jurors, that you paid more attention to the African America jurors than the others. Can you tell me about your involvement in the TV room situation and the scheduling of movies?

DEPUTY "A": The scheduling of movies was done previously--the schedule of movies was posted before I would arrive there at night. There was an incident that arose that it may have appeared I had something to do with the television room and it was back when we had the final four, the college playoffs, basketball. We had live TV that was the same night that the juror accused me of not letting him use the gym. And on that particular night, I had four deputies including myself working. I might need to explain a little bit about the set-up of the hotel, of the rooms that were available so you can see where my personnel is. I had a Deputy "K" in room 533, which had live television, was showing the basketball games. I--because that was live TV, I had to have a deputy there every minute that it was on. I had Deputy "M" sitting at the command post. That person monitors the whole floor and the TV room. That person has to be--that position has to be manned non-stop. I had Deputy "N" in the telephone room. That room has to be manned at all times. You can not leave that room. The back room, 501, which is another movie room, I was monitoring that room. I'm sorry. That might be--room 501, yes. The movie room, 501, is across from the card room, across from 502. I would monitor both rooms, the reason being, it was pay for view movies. They would watch the movie and I would go back and forth between the rooms. There was a movie being played in room 503, we'll say the back room, when juror 1233 came to me and asked me to go to the gym. It was about 10 o'clock at night. And I turned around and made the comment, "I don't have the manpower to take you to the gym." And she appeared to me to be upset about it. Right from the beginning, I knew she was upset about it. Just coincidentally, the basketball games were ending. The live coverage was ending just about the same time she made this request to me. So I had made the decision to shut that movie room down so I could accommodate these four, five jurors that wanted to go to the gym, down to the downstairs gym. So I shut that room down and I started a new movie in the back room. And the VCR in the back room had started to malfunction. So I told everybody why don't we just shut this room down, go to the front TV room, reopen it, and I'll let them watch the video there and the ones that wanted to go downstairs to the gym could go to the gym.

I was trying to accommodate everybody. I shut down the back room, back TV room, shut down the card room, left "N" in the phone room. There were only three jurors that I can remember in the room with me, which was 1492, Juror no. 63 and juror no 1427. I went to the front TV room where I opened the room up and started a video. At that time, Deputy "K" took the command post and Deputy "M" took the four or five jurors who wanted to go to the gym downstairs to the gym. It just took me a few minutes to accommodate everybody. And in the meantime, juror 1489 came to me and said, "Hey, I thought you just closed this room down." I said, "I did, but I just reopened it." He came back with, "Why?" And I started to explain. He said, "Oh, never mind. You are the man." I said, "No, no. I'm not the man. I will explain to you if you give me a chance." He said, "No. You're the man. No need to explain," and he walked out. At the time I had tried to talk to him in the TV room and he walked out, Deputy "M" was sitting at the command post. Deputy "M" had heard 1489 say I was a bigot. He had relayed to her that I was a bigot and she in turn told me, at which time I walked into the weight room where he had gone from the TV room to the upstairs room to wait to be escorted to the downstairs gym. I walked up to him again and I said, "If you don't mind, I would like to explain to you why I closed the TV room." He said, "You owe me no explanation. You are the man." And to avoid confrontation, I turned around and walked away. And as far as I can remember, that night, they were taken down to the downstairs gym, allowed to go to the steamroom and use it. I had nothing to do with setting up the upstairs gym. It was a request of the jurors. As far as I know, it was a mix of jurors, if you want to say, you know, ethnic backgrounds wanted it and who use it. And I guess this concern got voiced to the sergeant, and next day I came in and I was told that the downstairs gym was canceled, we were no longer going to be taking jurors down--I don't know if they thought it was a result of me or not, but I had nothing to do with it.

THE COURT: Can you think of any other incidents between you and 1489 that might account for the impression that he has?

DEPUTY "A": Only one more thing I should add. That same night, when he was telling Deputy "M" I was a bigot, he said that I had shut him out of a room--he said the week prior to that, I had shut him out of a room. And I tried to think what happened the week prior to that, and I couldn't recall. I know that it was the same thing. I only had four deputies working, and I try to man every room possible. And in order to give them another benefit, I need to close a room down. I may have closed down a room he was in. I couldn't tell you if I did or who was in it. I just worked it that way. I would also add, he would always go down to the steamroom downstairs--every time I seen him go downstairs to the steamroom, he would be with a group of--group of five pretty regularly, five or six. It dwindled down to about three or four.

THE COURT: All right. Has anything come to your attention which would cause or that would sort of ring a bell in your mind, an allegation that you paid more attention to monitoring the activity of the African America jurors, anything, for example in the domino room?

DEPUTY "A": Yes. Yes. One instance to that. I believe I even wrote a memo to the sergeant which in turn got turned over to you I believe. And that was, after--that was just recently when inquisition was made of all the jurors. And I know that inquisition was made during day shift when I was--

THE COURT: I have to smile at your use of the word "Inquisition," but go ahead.

DEPUTY "A": When the sergeant questioned the jurors about the allegation that I might have been a racist. I knew that that took place, and when I came in that night, I noticed that the sergeant had called juror 1489 aside and he talked to him one-on-one inside the card room. I was working the telephone room. That's why I know it occurred. And when the sergeant left, he left for the night, I was in the telephone room. I really can't recall who was in the TV room. I think it was Deputy "K". Yeah. Deputy "K". I was in the telephone room and there was a group of people in the domino room, the card room. Originally it was 1489 and I believe 165, 1233 and 462 might have joined him. I can't remember exactly all the numbers that were there. It might have been after 460 was dismissed. It was a group of them however. I was working the phone room. I heard sounds of whispering. I could make out the whispering, but I don't know--you know how you can hear--sitting on the bench in the courtroom, you can hear people whispering on the bench--

THE COURT: I hear what's being said.

DEPUTY "A": It's quite obvious. I didn't hear what was being said, but I did look around the room, just kind of monitored back and forth. And that's the time where they might have thought I was eavesdropping more carefully on them more than anyone else. That's the only incident I'm aware of. I wrote a report on that, even wrote a memo to that effect.

THE COURT: Any other instances that would cause you to believe that or would ring a bell as to the allegation more attention was paid to the African America jurors?


THE COURT: All right. Is there anything about your--you've told us about 1489. Can you think of anything concerning say, for example, 165--

DEPUTY "A": Yes.

THE COURT: --that might cause this feeling?

DEPUTY "A": This is pretty much after that. This is a few weeks after this had happened, the event I am talking about in the TV room, steamroom. It was a Saturday. Saturday, we have visitors, personal family members come over to visit the jurors in their rooms. On that day, jurors are allowed to provide snacks in their room for their visitors, cokes, candy, potato chips, what have you. Snacks would be stored in the rooms where the televisions are. It just happened to work out that way. The TV rooms, if nobody is manning them, the door is shut.

I came on duty at 7:15 P.M. that night. I don't start until 7:30. I was walking towards the back room when juror 165 walked out of his room to go get his visitor a snack and the room was shut. He started walking toward me and he was voicing his concern why the door was shut. He was upset that it was shut. He felt it should be open as long as his visitor was there in case he wanted to get snacks. I explained to him I was just coming back on duty and I would open it right now, I would be happy to open it as soon as I came back on duty, and he made a remark back to me I'd better watch it or the thing was going to blow up in my face. I said, "Yes, sir." I said--the sergeant still happened to be there--"The sergeant is still here. I'll be happy to get him." I went in and opened the door for him, he went in, got his snacks and went back to his room. And I had two jurors in the meantime come down who wanted to use the phones. So I shut down the TV room, opened the phone room. I can't man them at the same time, the television and telephone room. I went in there, manned the telephone room, and he came back out to get additional snacks and realized the door was shut again and he was extremely upset with this. He thought I was making a personal attack on him shutting the door again. I tried to explain to him I just don't have the personnel to open that room right now, but as soon as I did, it would stay open the rest of the night. That's the only incident I can think of.

THE COURT: Any problems with 1233?

DEPUTY "A": None that I can think of.

THE COURT: All right. How about ***?


THE COURT: How about 462?


THE COURT: With regards to the jurors' rooms, are you aware of any searches of any of the jurors' rooms?

DEPUTY "A": No. Not searches, no.

THE COURT: Okay. Deputy "A", is there anything you would like to say or you think we need to know?


THE COURT: All right. Mr. Cochran, Miss Clark, Mr. Darden?


MR. COCHRAN: I don't think so.

THE COURT: Deputy "A", thank you very much for coming in here.

(Deputy "A" exits chambers.)

THE COURT: Is Deputy "C" available? Let's have Deputy "C".

(Deputy "C" enters chambers.)

THE COURT: Good afternoon, Deputy "C".

DEPUTY "C": Good afternoon, Judge.

THE COURT: I'm making some inquiry about some complaints and concerns that have been raised with regards to the sequestered jury, and I wanted to ask you a question specifically about a shopping trip to Target and Ross. And I've received a complaint from some jurors who were African America that they feel that other jurors were given more time to shop than they were and they feel that they were treated unfairly because they were African Americans. Can you tell me--first of all, my recollection is that you were involved in that shopping trip as one of the lead deputies.

DEPUTY "C": That's correct.

THE COURT: Can you tell me how that shopping trip was set up?

DEPUTY "C": Juror 1492 asked us to go to Ross because that was one of the few places that she can go to get her correct size type clothes. So we agreed that we would go to Ross and Target. We had two groups that day. We had a group that wanted to go to both Ross and Target and a group that wanted to go to Target only. I took the group that wanted to go to Target only. Deputy "H" took the group that wanted to go to both Ross and Target. Once my group went into Target and we got done, we left Target and we went to Burger King. We went to Burger King in an effort to kill time to wait for the other group that had to go to both Ross and Target. Once the second group left Ross, they went into Target. Once they got done with Target, they came over to Burger King. Everyone had a chance to buy at Burger King if they wanted to. Then we left Burger King and went to the beach. Basically when we go to either shopping centers or wherever we go, we go in--either Deputy "H" and I go in as a team or I go in alone. And on that day, I went to Target alone and Deputy "H" went to Ross alone. We would contact the managers and let them know that we had the jury with us, we would like them to turn off their TV's, the radio, whatever radio station that they were listening to, change it to an in-house radio station, change their TV programming, go to in-house TV, advertising type deal, and we go in and set all that up before we take the jurors in. We basically let them know they have approximately an hour to get their shopping done. We don't stick to the hour because a lot of people take a lot of time in looking at one particular piece of clothing or whatever it is that they're looking at. So even though we say we would like to get in and out in approximately an hour, we normally take much longer than an hour.

THE COURT: How many jurors did you have in each group?

DEPUTY "C": I had approximately five or six. I'm not sure about the numbers. But I had approximately five or six and Deputy "H" had approximately 13.

THE COURT: How did this disparity about shopping come about, about times available?

DEPUTY "C": The times available?

THE COURT: Yes. The concern is that the group that wanted to go to Target was--that only wanted to go to Target was then allowed to go into Ross whereas the people who split the time got hustled through Target and hustled through Ross and had to come out.

DEPUTY "C": No, no. That never happened. Basically I took one group to Target and Deputy "H" took the other group to Ross. Once the group got done at Ross, then they would move over to Target, and they shopped there and then we left. But they are not--we do not--we try to give everybody enough time to get whatever shopping done that they need done. So--

THE COURT: Who was in charge as far as how much time each group got where?

DEPUTY "C": Deputy "H" and I because basically that day, after the shopping trip, we took them to the beach. So we needed to get them in and out so we had time to go to the beach too.

THE COURT: Do you recall which jurors you had with you in your group?

DEPUTY "C": My group was mostly males. I don't know the numbers. Basically after--every week, I would shred the unwanted paper that I don't need. For example, when we go out on trips and we split up the different groups between groups and deputies, when I no longer need that information, like after the trip, that weekend or so, I would just dump all the paper that I have on that particular trip. So I don't keep track of what deputy handled what jurors say after a weekend for any particular trip.

THE COURT: Have you had any problems where some jurors don't want to shop with other jurors?

DEPUTY "C": Not outright like that, no. Some people might want to go to a particular store. Another group might not want to go, but if they have friends going to one store, they might decide to go along with that friend just to be with that friend. That's about all.

THE COURT: Can you think of any miscommunication or debate that occurred that might cause some jurors to feel that they were given less favorable treatment on this particular shopping trip, less amount of time to shop?

DEPUTY "C": No. There should be none, none at all, because most of the decisions as to when we move or how we move or where we go is made by Deputy "H" and I.

THE COURT: Do you recall communicating with Deputy "H" about moving the groups in and out at the conclusion of the shopping trip?

DEPUTY "C": Other than I remember telling her once she got done with her group to bring them over to Burger King. That way, they could get a chance to buy at Burger King before--if they wanted to before we left for the beach.

THE COURT: Was there any controversy or complaint from any of the jurors about--

DEPUTY "C": No, sir.

THE COURT: In your opinion, do--you've been working with these people now for almost four months, three and a half months. Do you feel there's any reluctance for anybody to approach you?


THE COURT: To tell you about any problems that they have?

DEPUTY "C": No, sir. They come to me on a daily basis if they have anything they like to ask of me. So no.

THE COURT: Did--when you took the group to--

DEPUTY "C": Target.

THE COURT: --target, that was--target was the only group, right?

DEPUTY "C": Yes, sir.

THE COURT: Did any of those jurors express the desire to go to Ross and were they allowed to go to Ross?

DEPUTY "C": No. And if they want--no, they did not express any information to me that they wanted to go to Ross. And if they did, they would have gone with the original group with Deputy "H" anyhow because we gave them enough chance to go if they wanted to go.

THE COURT: All right. All right. Thank you very much, Deputy "C".

DEPUTY "C": Okay.

THE COURT: And Deputy "H" is off today?

DEPUTY "C": Yes, sir.

THE COURT: All right. Okay. Let's chat with Sergeant "J". Thank you very much, Deputy "C".

DEPUTY "C": Okay.

(Deputy "C" exits chambers.)

(Sergeant "J" enters chambers.)

THE COURT: Sergeant "J", how are you?

Sergeant "J": Hi. I'm fine, sir. How are you?

THE COURT: Good. Good to see you again. We've had the opportunity to talk to everybody that we wanted to talk to as far as both the jurors and the bailiffs are concerned with the exception of Deputy "H" who I understand is off today.

Sergeant "J": Right.

THE COURT: So we'll get a chance--is she scheduled tomorrow?

Sergeant "J": Yes.

THE COURT: Okay. Then I'll get a chance to speak with her tomorrow, but I wanted to talk to her specifically about the Ross Target outing, shopping outing. Also, I probably need to go over to the hotel and just to reacquaint myself with the location of all of these rooms, specifically the TV rooms and the weight room, the phone room just so I can get a better picture in my mind as to what the logistical concerns are. So I need to arrange that with you sometime later this week for me to go over there because it's hard for me to go anyplace these days without creating a crowd. However, I take it once we show up in the middle of this hotel, I suspect the cat will be out of the bag so to speak. So we'll need to arrange that somehow.

Sergeant "J": Okay.

THE COURT: I would like to do that sometime before the end of the week. Let me tell you some of the concerns that I wanted to discuss with you. I've received a number of complaints and concerns from my interviews of the jurors and I want to ask you if you have any comment on these things. Let me just tell you what they are. Many of the jurors complain that they received inadequate notice of the outings, that people would start lining up and they'd say, "Why are you lining up," and they would be told, you know, "We're leaving for the beach in five minutes," and they felt they didn't have enough notice on some of the outings. Some of the jurors have complained that they feel that their rooms are being searched without their permission. And my recollection is that the only room that I've ordered--that I have ordered to be searched was juror 602's after we had that conversation with him. And that was done at my direction.

There was--there have been allegations, numerous allegations, I would say perhaps eight or 10 allegations of unmonitored phone use and there's a general allegation by four or five of the jurors that they feel that the African America jurors are watched more carefully than others. I would like to ask you about the manner in which the reassignment of the three jurors was communicated to any members of the jury, what was said to them specifically.

Sergeant "J": Deputies?

THE COURT: Reassignment of the deputies, and I would like to ask you just in general about the training that the deputies have had regarding the specifics of this particular reassignment.

Sergeant "J": Where would you like me to start?

THE COURT: All right. I'm just telling you up front the things that I want to talk to you about. All right. Let's start at the top. In no particular order, before this sequestration was put into effect, can you tell me what type of training was provided for guidance, was provided for the deputies? Is there a sheriff's department manual regarding dealing with sequestered jurors?

Sergeant "J": No. There is no manual that I'm aware of. As far as training, a screening process was put into place where we did a background check on each deputy to make sure there was no disciplinary action taken against any of these deputies. There was also a screening process where we checked their personnel files as far as their time record, if they're punctual and if they had good interpersonal skills and good working relations with their fellow employees and the public. There was also a check as far as interpersonal skills, and all of the deputies went through a cultural awareness class. And the three that you're talking to today have five years on and they've all been through this cultural awareness class within the last three years.

THE COURT: All right. Was there any special briefing or training of these deputies and has there been any ongoing training or direction given to them?

Sergeant "J": Well, I constantly monitored the deputies on a daily basis. But prior to their assignment, we all sat down and one of the meetings was with yourself where you explained their--how this trial was going to affect them. During that same meeting, we explained professional demeanor, how they needed to interact with these individuals and they would be expected to adapt and change as time went on. And I continually monitored this--monitored this process. And as the jury was sequestered and as time went on, there was some adjustment that had to be made both on the jurors' part and on the deputies' part, and there's been some reassignment and movements that have made the whole operation work a little more smoothly.

THE COURT: Tell me about some of those reassignments and changes just to give me an example.

Sergeant "J": Well, they affected mainly a lot of--mainly logistics and just some personal needs of both the deputies and the jurors. There were personal needs that some of the jurors required. A lot of the females required certain types of cosmetic appointments. These were handled by Deputy "I". She did a good job with it. And so I adjusted her shift so she could interact more with all of these jurors. There were times that van drivers--for instance, I felt more comfortable with certain individuals that knew how to operate the vans more safely since we were required to take them to so many outings. Based on this, I made sure that I had good qualified van drivers that had went through a special class and that they could operate these vans safely.

THE COURT: Okay. Let me give you an example of one of the complaints. There was a complaint by a number of jurors that they felt that they weren't given adequate notice of the outings. Is there any way that--can you tell me how that was done and whether or not it's possible to change that?

Sergeant "J": Notice--most of the time, notice would take place immediately after court recess. We would respond to the Court. If you broke early on a particular day and we had enough time to get them to a shopping center or an outing and the weather permitted, we would give them as quick notice as possible to get them out. And many times--you and I have discussed this, where if Court broke at 3 o'clock or 2 o'clock--you're right. I will admit there was not adequate time to let these people know. We would take advantage of the short time we had. If we had a two-hour span of time, maybe it was a 20-minute, half hour travel time, and we would hurry them up. We would--we would go in and tell them, "We're leaving in 15 minutes. If you want to go, we've only got a short period of time. Let's go. Because if we wait too much time, we're not going to get back in time for you to eat dinner. Dinner is going to be served at about 6:30." And so that would usually be the reason for the short notices.

THE COURT: On any of the major outings, have the jurors been given such short notice?

Sergeant "J": Not on a major outing, no. Preplanned outings, we've always had plenty of time to notify them. It usually was last-minute decisions where one of the jurors would make a request and we found out at the last minute that we had the time to do it.

THE COURT: Okay. Other than the search of juror 602's room after that incident with him where he gave us permission to search his room, are you aware of any other searches of any other jurors' rooms?

Sergeant "J": None.

THE COURT: With regard to the unmonitored use of the phones, have you taken any--first of all, have you done any investigation yourself as to those issues?

Sergeant "J": Yes, I did.

THE COURT: All right.

Sergeant "J": I spoke to each juror individually, and each juror had told me that they were never allowed to make a phone call without a deputy making it for them aside from very special occasions where an ATM machine was the dialing--is what they were going to be dialing or on one occasion where I let a juror make a phone call to a family member and I stood there and monitored it. But that was because she was so sick. I wasn't going to have her walk all the way back down the end of the hallway and all the way down around the corner. It was trying enough just for her to stand there with me five minutes while she had the flu. So I let her go in the command post and make a phone call, but I monitored her.

THE COURT: Can you--have you had any complaints brought to you by any of the jurors complaining about the--complaining that African America jurors are monitored more closely than the others?

Sergeant "J": Yes. I had four--four jurors I believe made that--made that complaint or expressed that concern.

THE COURT: Do you know who they are?

Sergeant "J": Yes. 1489, I believe it would be--well, it would be the stewardess. I can't remember her number right offhand.

THE COURT: ***. They're called flight attendants.

Sergeant "J": Flight attendants. Okay. And 165. And the complaint was made at that particular time of Deputy "L" who said that--Juror no. 165, I recall him stating that Deputy "L" seemed to be monitoring them a little more closely in the patio area than the other deputies monitored the white jurors.

THE COURT: And what did you do in response to that, that complaint?

Sergeant "J": I explained to him that the deputies usually station themselves in specific areas because I insist on every deputy knowing where all the jurors are at all times. They have to maintain a count and I require that of all the deputies. Whenever I walk out into an area where the jurors are allowed to mingle, I expect those deputies to know where all those jurors are. They are not allowed to lose sight of them. So if they're stationary, obviously it's a lot easier for them to keep their count. If they start moving about and intermingling, it's going to take a little more observance on the deputies' part to keep an eye on them and make sure they don't mingle in with people that are not jurors.

THE COURT: Can you tell me if you received any complaint from anybody regarding the Ross and Target shopping excursion?

Sergeant "J": I never received complaints on that.

THE COURT: How, have you handled taking from the jurors complaints from them or concerns? Do you have a procedure set up?

Sergeant "J": What I'll do, every other day I'll meet with the jurors. I'll go down to dinner with them, I'll meet with them at their table, I'll go to each table. I will also meet with them in one of the rooms and I'll communicate with them individually. So I'll meet with them either at least once a week in small groups on an individual basis. I always tell them if there's anything of their concern, they can come to me at any time, give a note to any of the deputies, and they'll give it to me and I will also make myself available at all times. At least every other day, I go to the hotel and spend from 5 o'clock until 7:30 at the hotel walking amongst the jurors in all the rooms.

THE COURT: All right. And has there been any reluctance by any of the jury members to talk to you about any problems they had?

Sergeant "J": No.

THE COURT: Last Thursday when the reassignment of these three deputies took place, do you know how this information was communicated to the jurors that those three deputies had been reassigned?

Sergeant "J": I understand that they were asking one of the deputies at the hotel. When I--the reason I'm hesitating is because I received a phone call from I believe it was the court clerk, Deirdre. Deirdre or somebody called me and wanted the hotel phone number. It might have been Deputy "E", your bailiff. I gave him the court or the hotel phone number, and they said that you were requesting it. When I heard that, I knew that there must have been something--you had a concern. So I called back over at the hotel and was advised by Deputy "O" that he had called back over here trying to get ahold of you or get ahold of somebody in the court because he had a concern about why the jurors were upset. And that's the first that I had heard that they were aware that something was wrong. And then I went back over there later on that afternoon and saw several of them sitting in a room very upset, some of them crying. I asked them what was wrong. They had advised me that they knew that the deputies had been reassigned and it wasn't right. That's how that was communicated to me, that they--they didn't really express how they found out other than I believe "Q" had told them that these three deputies were not coming back, and I did confirm that at that time.

THE COURT: Were the deputies instructed not to discuss it any further?

Sergeant "J": Yes. In fact, when the jurors were asking additional questions, I told them that we could not discuss it.

THE COURT: All right. Have you had the occasion prior to last Thursday to reassign any of the deputies assigned to this detail since we started?

Sergeant "J": I haven't reassigned them yet, no. I mean they're removed from this operation. They're in the process of being reassigned as we speak.

THE COURT: All right. I mean, have there been any other occasions where we've reassigned people off of this detail?

Sergeant "J": No. I should clarify that. There have been two individuals that have transferred, but it was due to a transfer. Deputy "P" transferred to another police department and department "R" transferred to another courthouse. So those are the only--there have been two reassignments.

THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Cochran, any other questions you want to suggest for Sergeant "J" at this time?


(An off the record discussion was held.)

THE COURT: Do you recall, oh, six, eight weeks ago you came in to tell me about a problem with regard to the snacks in the TV rooms?

Sergeant "J": Yes.

THE COURT: And I think the bottom line is, I told you they're behaving like children, just put them in between the two TV rooms and let them have equal access to them. Can you tell me, how did that start?

Sergeant "J": How did the problem start?


Sergeant "J": When we opened up the second TV room, which was the network--that had access to network television, it was the easiest and most accessible to the room services that came up. So room service just started serving that room. All the food and everything that was placed in there was available to everybody, but it became apparent that certain jurors took offense to the fact that the other room wasn't being stocked, which led to our conversation and eventually led to the snacks being placed in a center area.

MR. COCHRAN: Were the sheriff's ever lobbied or encouraged to wear formal clothes as opposed to casual clothes?

THE COURT: What does that have to do with anything? There's a lot of things I want to know, Mr. Cochran, that I don't ask questions about. Was there any discussion by the sheriff's department about the jurors wearing more informal attire?

MR. COCHRAN: Not jurors. Whether the jurors were lobbying--asked the sheriffs to wear casual clothes. Not the jurors' clothes. The sheriffs to wear casual clothes as opposed to wearing uniforms.

MR. DARDEN: Objection. Vague.

THE COURT: I understand the question now.

MR. COCHRAN: I'm not talking about the jurors' clothes.

THE COURT: We talked about this a long time ago. Some of the sheriff's--there was a request by the jurors that they would feel more comfortable if perhaps some of the sheriff's deputies didn't wear their uniforms. I discussed that with Sergeant "J". We agreed that there needed to be some personnel available in a sheriff's uniform so if any situation came up with the public, they would be immediately recognizable as law enforcement and as a sheriff's deputy; however, that it was probably a reasonable request. And, Sergeant "J", what adjustment did you make after that?

Sergeant "J": Well, all the deputies that are stationed at the hotel that have to work the command post, which are two, are always in uniform 24 hours a day and they will be the ones that will respond. But they're hidden and they're secluded, you know, within the hotel. When we go out amongst the public, we try to blend in with just everybody else.

THE COURT: How about on the actual floors? Are they informally dressed?

Sergeant "J": They're still--it depends. It is split up at that point. It will--usually two more deputies will go into uniform. So you'll have four, and then they'll always be two in civilian attire in case they want to go down and use other parts of the hotel or they have to move them up and down the elevator so they're not so noticeable at the hotel.

THE COURT: All right.

MR. COCHRAN: I have a question.

THE COURT: Any other questions that have to do with this?

(Brief pause.)

THE COURT: I know where that's going.

MR. COCHRAN: No. You understand the question.

THE COURT: I understand the question. It wasn't legible, but I understand the question.

MR. COCHRAN: Thank you, your Honor.

THE COURT: Do you contemplate any other training regarding the deputies as far as being sensitive to the rather unusual situation of dealing with sequestered jurors? Have you made inquiry of any other deputies that have handled this or any other law enforcement agencies?

Sergeant "J": Maybe if you can give me a hint on who may have handled one like this, I would love it. I did--and I don't mean to be joking like that.

THE COURT: No. Believe me. I'm serious.

Sergeant "J": I'm serious. I have asked ***********, who was the individual in charge of the--I believe it was the ***** trial. No, it wasn't the ***** trial. Federal--the federal case, but it didn't--he hasn't returned my phone calls. I haven't been able to contact him for any special guidance, and he's the only one that has had this kind of experience before. But there are some classes in cultural awareness and personal skills. I can probably ask our psychological services if they would be interested in handling some of this. But at the beginning of this, I think we talked about offering some of this based on the jurors' questionnaires, and we thought it was best at that point not to dove into this.

THE COURT: I mean not as far as the jurors are concerned, but as far as the deputies are concerned.

Sergeant "J": And it was to apply to the deputies on how to deal with a lot of these jurors, and we can still go back and do some of that.

THE COURT: Mr. Cochran.

MR. COCHRAN: The question I have, are the marshals still L.A. county, the marshal's office? Has he talked to anybody formerly in the marshal's office? They did a lot of this.

Sergeant "J": I don't think the marshal's office has handled a sequestered jury. I don't think the L.A. county marshal's office has handled a sequestered jury in the last 20 years.

MR. COCHRAN: No, they haven't. But they've had some kind of training apparently. At least what's what the municipal court judges think. They used to--you know, isn't there a lawsuit about that?

THE COURT: No, I don't think so. Commander Holland, you have vast experience with the marshal's office; is that correct?


THE COURT: And my recollection is, I don't think the marshal's office has ever handled a sequestered jury in my recollection. Any special training that they received or anything like that?

COMMANDER HOLLAND: No. No. We had I think only one which we had for a long period of time, the Lockheed case, and that was years ago. But sequestered juries are rare, extremely rare.

THE COURT: All right. Any other questions for Sergeant "J" before we excuse him, understanding that he's available at any time since he's still the man in charge of this process?

MR. DARDEN: Can I ask a question. Was it ever given any consideration to rotating deputies in and out of here?

THE COURT: Here's what the problem is though. I think we discussed that early on, and I think the jurors have expressed a need for continuity in how they're dealt with, you know, that there are certain rules, they know when deputies are enforcing which rules, and there was a complaint with discontinuity if you recall at first. So--and plus to train them. There's so many nuances and special situations dealing with sequestered jurors that to bring people in and rotate them through--this is not an easy assignment. There are--the pitfalls here are so tremendous.

In fact, when I started with this whole sequestration discussion, Sergeant "J" and I had hoped, had hoped--this is past tense--hoped that the sheriff's department would never be mentioned anytime anybody ever mentioned this case, that the sheriff's department would be an asterisk somewhere in a case report, oh, by the way, the sheriffs were the bailiffs. We had hoped that that would be the case and we're hoping still that that will be the case. So I don't think rotating deputies is a particularly good idea given the eye-to-eye level of the specialized training that is necessary and the rules and regulations that are necessary.

MR. COCHRAN: I have a question, and the question deals with what is the philosophy about dealing with these jurors. Are the jurors--are they perceived to be--to be catered to, the ones who are the ones who are here as citizen volunteers? What's the philosophy?

THE COURT: There's a fine line between being accommodated and being coddled.

MR. COCHRAN: Sure. I mean what's the philosophy? It's not in the manual. I think this is the problem. I don't know if we understand what is the philosophy. If it was you, if it was your bailiff, I think it's pretty clear what your bailiff wants to do, caters to the Judge.

THE COURT: No. These are sheriffs.

MR. COCHRAN: I'm saying the sheriffs cater to the Judge. But the question is, what is the philosophy dealing with sequestered juries this length of time and this sort of thing. I think that's one of the real issues we have here.

THE COURT: I'm sure--I don't mean to speak for Sherman Block, but it's the hope on behalf of the courts that they are here to provide security for the jurors. The reason we have a sequestered jury is to protect them from outside influences, and that is their number one mission, is to protect them from outside influences. That's why we have them. Their second duty or obligation, since these are citizens and not prisoners, is to accommodate them in as humanly a way as possible, which we are attempting to do. But since we have multiple personalities and multiple wants, needs, ages, races, social background, economic background, it's very hard to deal with this particular situation. The fact that we've gone this far with a great amount--I mean, we've gotten all the success stories that we have along the line--that this jury is actually very happy about much of the accommodations. We have only had two complaints about the food so far, which I think is amazing.

They've been by and large very happy with the extracurricular activities. They're unhappy about the pace of the trial, which makes two of us. So I think there's room for improvement as far as sensitivity is concerned because obviously the sheriff's department has a number of personnel who have dealt with inmates and there may be the tendency to fall back into that mode of behavior. But other than sensitivity training, I don't know that there's anything at this point I would recommend the sheriff do.

MR. COCHRAN: Can Sergeant "J" comment on that at all?

Sergeant "J": Well, maybe I can go back to that question on the reassignments. I've reassigned three additional deputies, two of whom are black. They're older, and I hope that helps ridge maybe some of these gaps that we need to address here and it will smooth things out. Obviously, like the Judge said, these are--these are not prisoners. They're not inmates, and I dwell on that continuously. If there's anything that I do over there, it's make sure that these deputies understand that, and they're very good at it. It's just unfortunate I think that we're dealing with a small element that it's pretty hard to please. But hopefully with these new changes, we can ridge this gap and we can get on with the trial for you.

MR. COCHRAN: With regard to--since Thursday, jurors--Friday or this weekend, we've seen a change in attitude. We saw people seemingly happy today. Everyone seemed to be happy again.

THE COURT: What is your assessment, Sergeant "J", on the attitude of the jurors as of today?

Sergeant "J": Today? I think we're going to have a problem with the four jurors or five who weren't interviewed. You can't treat these people--you have two groups here that you obviously already know about. We deal with them very well, but you can't do something for one and not do it for the other. As long--

THE COURT: Well, one group--Sergeant "J", there's a simple answer. One group asked to be heard, asked to speak to me and the other group did not.

Sergeant "J": Well, as we speak, I'm also aware that one of the jurors did ask to come in and speak to you. As a whole, I think they're doing very well. They're very well. It's a good group. Aside from some sort of reaction about what's going on today from the jurors that weren't included in this, I think they're going to do just fine.

MR. COCHRAN: Are you recommending to the Court that the other four should be interviewed?

Sergeant "J": No.

MR. COCHRAN: Cut down your problems?

Sergeant "J": No, I'm not recommending that.

THE COURT: All right.

MR. DARDEN: Would you ask Sergeant "J" about **** demeanor?

THE COURT: How is *** doing today?

Sergeant "J": She seems to be doing quite a bit better.

THE COURT: Anything else? Okay. Then we will stand in recess as to this inquiry until I have the opportunity to talk to Deputy "H". And as I said, Sergeant "J", I will want to run over to the hotel and have a look-see of the layout to reacquaint myself with that.

Sergeant "J": Sure.

THE COURT: Okay. As far as the trial is concerned, then we'll reconvene with Miss Mazzola, say, about 3:30.

MR. COCHRAN: What time?

THE COURT: 3:30, right now.

MR. COCHRAN: Right now?

THE COURT: 9 o'clock. Counsel are ordered not to make any comment regarding the status of anything that's gone on with regards to the inquiry.

MR. DARDEN: Including Mr. Cochran?

THE COURT: Including Mr. Cochran.

(At 3:10 P.M., an adjournment was taken until, Tuesday, April 25, 1995, 9:00 A.M.)