Department no. 103 Hon. Lance A. Ito, Judge

APPEARANCES: (Appearances as heretofore noted.)

(Janet M. Moxham, CSR no. 4855, official reporter.)

(Christine M. Olson, CSR no. 2378, official reporter.)

(Pages 36285 through 36289, volume 185A, transcribed and sealed under separate cover.)

(The following proceedings were held in open court, out of the presence of the jury:)

THE COURT: All right. Back on the record in the Simpson matter. The Defendant is again present with his counsel, Mr. Cochran, Mr. Shapiro, Mr. Bailey. The People are represented by Mr. Darden, Mr. Gordon and Miss Lewis. And I see we also have Miss Hamburger on behalf of Marguerite Thomas. All right. Good morning, counsel.

MS. LEWIS: Good morning, your Honor. Your Honor, I believe Miss Thomas' counsel is here as a result of being ordered back after the body attachment issued and so forth. It is our decision not to call Marguerite Thompson--Thomas, I'm sorry, Simpson to testify, so I don't know if the Defense wants her ordered back for their case or not.

MR. COCHRAN: Well, if we want her, we will make arrangements to get her.

THE COURT: All right. Then the body attachment will be recalled and quashed, and Miss Hamburger, thank you, and you and your client are free to leave.

MS. HAMBURGER: Thank you, your Honor.

THE COURT: All right.

MS. LEWIS: All right. Also, your Honor, this morning I filed two motions in limine to preclude certain testimony. One of them deals with--

THE COURT: Excuse me. Is there something funny?

(Brief pause.)

MS. LEWIS: One of them deals with Christian Reichardt who I heard Mr. Cochran indicate he had asked to come back this afternoon. Obviously I filed and served these this morning. Does the Court want to give an indication--let me let you know what the other brief is. The other one has to do with a witness called Lori Menzione who had a telephone conversation with the Defendant in Chicago. The motion in limine is to preclude her testifying to that conversation for insufficient foundation and hearsay reasons. She is sort of toward the end of the list of nine or ten witnesses I believe they gave us yesterday, so may, I guess, possibly hit the witness stand late today at the rate the witnesses are moving along. Perhaps the Defense can give us a better indication of when they expect she would hit the witness stand, Lori Menzione.

THE COURT: You are filing two motions in limine to preclude certain testimony?

MS. LEWIS: Yes.

THE COURT: All right. Mr. Cochran.

MR. COCHRAN: Your Honor, first of all, I haven't seen the motions thus far, and I just received them, but Miss Menzione, as far as I know, arrived here late last night from Chicago. She is here. And at the rate we are proceeding we could possibly get to her today or this evening or tomorrow morning at the earliest. And Mr. Reichardt, Dr. Reichardt, rather, is--was here yesterday. I asked him to be ordered back today. We have a number of witnesses today, so it just depends on this. But obviously I'm going to ask the Court to allow us to have until 1:30 again today because I have got witnesses even coming in over the lunch hour to keep the pace up and I will get a chance to review this. I haven't even had a chance to look at this and I have got a witness on the stand now, and once I determine what these areas are, we will just refrain from going into them until we can work that out, but I don't want to hold up witnesses who have flown from in from Chicago. I would like to put on all the witnesses regarding no controversy. If there is a controversy regarding the witness, put them at end of the day or put them at the next day, if possible. I'm sure the Court was kidding about the pace because it was rather breakneck yesterday and we will try to do that also.

THE COURT: The court reporters told me that they thought that comment was serious.

MR. COCHRAN: They thought you were serious?

THE COURT: And they were going to make arrangements to have transportation available for them sometime eight or nine o'clock tonight.

MR. COCHRAN: Is that right? Is that right? We thought you were kidding because I'm sure your Honor was impressed with the speed you proceeded yesterday, but we will still do what we have to do.

THE COURT: I do expect us to keep up, however, a good pace.

MR. COCHRAN: We expect to. This is our idea, your Honor.

THE COURT: Counsel, believe me, I appreciate that. For every hour of presentation in the courtroom, there is probably a hundred hours in preparation for that.

MR. COCHRAN: You know, as the Court could appreciate we were up 11:00, 12 o'clock last night and Mr. Douglas this morning seeing witnesses who flew in from Chicago, too late to even talk to last night, and we will do it.

THE COURT: All right.

MR. COCHRAN: For the record, Miss Lewis, I haven't seen these yet. Are you going to argue these?

MS. LEWIS: Yes.

THE COURT: We will chat about those at the noon hour.

MS. LEWIS: You expect at 1:00 or 1:30?

THE COURT: 1:30 at this point.

MR. COCHRAN: May I talk to her?

THE COURT: Sure.

MR. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, I have one matter to take up. I just informed the People of a witness who called me late last night who had relevant testimony, it appears, on the time of the barking dog or dogs. I have asked that witness to come to court this morning. I will make that witness available to the Prosecution as that witness will be available to us, and we would like to keep this case going, keep this case in order, and this witness just came to our attention at about ten o'clock last evening. I have given the People her name and we will make her available to them immediately.

THE COURT: All right.

MR. DARDEN: I don't mind this witness testifying tomorrow after we've had a chance to talk to her, but I think to just give me a name, one which I can't read completely, by the way, two minutes ago, is--

THE COURT: Mr. Darden, this is just Mr. Shapiro putting on the record that he has given you the information.

MR. DARDEN: Okay.

THE COURT: We are all aware of it. I will give you reasonable time.

MR. DARDEN: If I could also have her address.

MR. SHAPIRO: I don't have her address. She is coming down.

MR. DARDEN: And the correct spelling of her name.

MR. SHAPIRO: I never met her.

THE COURT: If the witness is going to be here this morning, however, she will be available to be interviewed by either yourself or one of your investigators, one of your colleagues.

MR. SHAPIRO: Thank you very much, your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. Let's have the jurors, please. I'm sorry.

MR. BAILEY: I think Mr. Douglas has a matter, but I have one.

THE COURT: Yes, sir.

MR. BAILEY: If it please the Court, yesterday you heard a reference to a witness Lang and you heard a reference to a white truck in the cross-examination of Francesca Harman by Mr. Darden. I discovered yesterday for the first time since we have been working with Mr. Lang that a tape-recording of his observations that night was made almost immediately after the events and turned over to the Prosecution many months ago, together with a sketch of what he saw. And he says that at ten o'clock at night he saw a large white truck, somebody in the truck, a blond woman he now recognizes as Nicole Brown Simpson, discoursing with the person in the truck and someone standing near the entrance to her gate in a menacing posture of Caucasian or Asian decent. Now, I think it an absolute outrage that this clearly exculpatory evidence, putting on the testimony of someone else who could possibly have figured into these murders, has not been turned over to the Defense, and I ask that you order that it be turned over forthwith and that we find out why it wasn't at some point. Meanwhile, I will inform the Court that Mr. Lang's lawyer is having the tape transcribed by his secretary and I will make it available to the Court as soon as I get it.

THE COURT: Mr. Darden, what about this?

MR. DARDEN: Are we talking about Heidstra or Lang?

MR. BAILEY: Lang.

MR. DARDEN: That is Miss Clark's witness, your Honor. I haven't heard a tape of Mr. Lang.

THE COURT: Do you know anything about a sketch?

MR. DARDEN: No, I know nothing about a sketch.

THE COURT: Well, when Miss Clark arrives and we are in a break, we will find out.

MR. BAILEY: I'm sure Mr. Darden will convey to her my concerns.

MR. DARDEN: You can convey them yourself.

THE COURT: Mr. Douglas.

MR. DOUGLAS: Your Honor, I just wanted to put on the record--

THE COURT: Excuse me. Mr. Darden, direct your comments to the Court; not to Mr. Douglas.

MR. DOUGLAS: May it please the Court, your Honor, I want to simply put on the record that this morning I have given Mr. Darden a packet of 13 x-rays of Mr. Simpson which we intend to use with Dr. Maltz who will testify probably next Monday. I'm also handing to Mr. Darden reports that were faxed into his office last night, a two-page report from Herbert McDonald, as well as a two-page report by a Dr. William Martel which Dr. Maltz used and will perhaps refer to during the course of Dr. Maltz' testimony.

THE COURT: This is as to the arthritic condition?

MR. DOUGLAS: Correct. Martel is a radiologist about the x-rays.

THE COURT: Okay.

MR. BAILEY: Excuse me, your Honor. For purposes of scheduling, I have a witness on a tight, tight schedule. Will you start again at 1:00 or 1:30 as Mr. Cochran requested?

THE COURT: Mr. Cochran requested 1:30.

MR. BAILEY: That is acceptable to the Court?

THE COURT: It is.

MR. BAILEY: Okay. Thank you, your Honor.

THE COURT: Let's have the jury.

(Brief pause.)

(The following proceedings were held in open court, in the presence of the jury:)

THE COURT: All right. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. Please be seated. Let the record reflect that we have been rejoined by all the members of our jury panel. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

THE JURY: Good morning.

THE COURT: Good to see you again. All right. Mr. Robert Heidstra, would you resume the witness stand, please.

Robert Heidstra, the witness on the stand at the time of the evening adjournment, resumed the stand and testified further as follows:

MR. HEIDSTRA: Good morning.

THE COURT: All right. Good morning, Mr. Heidstra.

MR. HEIDSTRA: Good morning.

THE COURT: Mr. Heidstra, you are reminded, sir, that you are still under oath. And would you pull the microphone close to you, please. Thank you. Mr. Cochran.

MR. COCHRAN: Certainly, your Honor. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

THE JURY: Good morning.

DIRECT EXAMINATION (RESUMED) BY MR. COCHRAN

MR. COCHRAN: Good morning, Mr. Heidstra.

MR. HEIDSTRA: Good morning.

MR. COCHRAN: Thank you, your Honor.

MR. COCHRAN: Mr. Heidstra, yesterday at the end of the day we had been discussing your observations on the evening of June 12th, 1994, the Sunday, and I think we had concluded talking about the meeting that you had had--

THE COURT: Excuse me just a second. Deputy Magnera, one of our jurors needs a pen.

(Brief pause.)

THE COURT: All right. Proceed.

MR. COCHRAN: Thank you, your Honor.

MR. COCHRAN: I believe we had discussed the time that you came down for the meeting in this building with Miss Clark and Mr. Hodgman and Detective Payne. Do you recall that?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And after that particular conversation with those two Deputy District Attorneys and with the police officer, did you have occasion to talk to any other police officers after--after that conversation?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, no.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Did you have occasion to meet with a lawyer on the Prosecution team this year, during 1995?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, sir.

MR. COCHRAN: You didn't meet with Mr. Christopher Darden?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Later on, yes; later.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. When was that?

MR. HEIDSTRA: That was on memorial day.

MR. COCHRAN: Memorial day of this year?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. COCHRAN: That is of 1995?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Exactly.

MR. COCHRAN: And when we talk about Mr. Darden, you mean the gentleman here in the middle, Mr. Darden?

MR. HEIDSTRA: That's it, yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And was Mr. Darden in the company of anyone else?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Two detectives.

MR. COCHRAN: When he came out to see you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Two detectives.

MR. COCHRAN: And do you presently recall the names of either of those detectives who were with Mr. Darden?

MR. HEIDSTRA: One name was Steven--Stevens.

MR. COCHRAN: Mark Stevens, kind of a large gentleman?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, right, right.

MR. COCHRAN: Do you remember the name of the other gentleman, if it was a gentleman?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, no.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. How was this meeting arranged on memorial day or thereabouts involving Mr. Darden, Mr. Stevens and this other individual?

MR. HEIDSTRA: They called me at eight o'clock in the morning.

MR. COCHRAN: Where did they call you, sir?

MR. HEIDSTRA: At home.

MR. COCHRAN: At your residence there on Dorothy?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah--yes.

MR. COCHRAN: You had a conversation with them?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah. They told me they wanted to--

MR. DARDEN: Objection, hearsay.

MR. HEIDSTRA: They wanted--

THE COURT: Mr. Darden, if you are going to make an objection, we need to stand so I can see that you are making an objection. Sustained.

MR. COCHRAN: Thank you, your Honor.

MR. COCHRAN: With regard--

THE COURT: Also, Mr. Heidstra, would you allow Mr. Cochran to finish asking the question before you start your answer.

MR. HEIDSTRA: Sorry. Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: Thank you, your Honor.

MR. COCHRAN: Now, the question was you had a conversation--without telling us what it was--you had a conversation with somebody from the D.A.'s office; is that right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: That was about eight o'clock in the morning?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And after that conversation did the three gentleman that you have spoken about show up where you live?

MR. HEIDSTRA: At ten o'clock, yes.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Was that the time you agreed upon?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And they came out to Dorothy; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. COCHRAN: And so that we are clear, that was in the month of--toward of end of May of 1995; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And once they got to your particular residence--you have never met Mr. Darden before, had you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No.

MR. COCHRAN: Did you have a conversation with these three individuals at that point?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Oh, yes, yes.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And did you invite them into your house or did you go someplace?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, I sat there and I have my dogs. I have a small apartment so we went outside for a walk.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. All right. Was it your idea to go for a walk?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, I said, "Let's go around the block."

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Did you walk around the block?

MR. HEIDSTRA: We did.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. You were accompanied by--you didn't take your dogs with you this time?

MR. HEIDSTRA: One dog I took with me.

MR. COCHRAN: Which dog did you take?

MR. HEIDSTRA: The younger dog.

MR. COCHRAN: Okay. By the way, with the Court's indulgence with regard to those dogs--I don't have a dog fixation, but there is some merit here, your Honor. With regard to those dogs, will you tell us how old are those two dogs.

THE COURT: We heard this yesterday.

MR. COCHRAN: I'm not sure the one dog--

THE COURT: I thought we heard that one was 14.

MR. COCHRAN: Not the other one.

THE COURT: All right. Proceed.

MR. COCHRAN: Bear with me.

MR. COCHRAN: The one dog, how old is the oldest dog?

MR. HEIDSTRA: He is about 14 now.

MR. COCHRAN: How old is the youngest dog?

MR. HEIDSTRA: 11 now I guess.

MR. COCHRAN: The youngest dog is 11?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Does the oldest dog suffer with some kind of an ailment?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Oh, yes, arthritis in the back legs.

MR. COCHRAN: He has what?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Arthritis.

MR. COCHRAN: Okay. And is that--how does that affect his ability to walk when you go out with him?

MR. DARDEN: Objection, irrelevant.

MR. COCHRAN: It becomes very relevant.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. COCHRAN: You can answer.

MR. HEIDSTRA: He can walk very slowly, very slow, very slow.

MR. COCHRAN: Does that affect the time it takes you to complete your walk?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Oh, sure, sure, sure.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. So you took one of the dogs with you, I presume the younger one, that morning?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. COCHRAN: Okay. And you had a conversation with these three gentlemen?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: As you walked, did you show him anything or did you just talk?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, we were just talking about--asking questions.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. You responded to their questions?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And did Mr. Darden ask you some questions?

MR. HEIDSTRA: He did.

MR. COCHRAN: What did Mr. Darden ask you?

MR. DARDEN: Objection, hearsay.

MR. COCHRAN: I think I can link it up, your Honor.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. What did Mr. Darden ask you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: What kind of work I did and if I was legally in this country.

MR. COCHRAN: He asked if you were legal?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. COCHRAN: You are a legal citizen, aren't you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Sure.

MR. COCHRAN: What else did he ask you?

MR. DARDEN: Objection, your Honor, hearsay.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. COCHRAN: Well, how were you treated by Mr. Darden and these men who came out to see you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Pretty cruel, pretty--

MR. DARDEN: Okay.

THE COURT: Sustained. It is irrelevant.

MR. COCHRAN: It is irrelevant, your Honor?

THE COURT: It is irrelevant.

MR. COCHRAN: Okay. The conversation, can you describe for us the tone of the conversation between these three men as they asked you questions, specifically Mr. Darden?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Not very friendly.

MR. COCHRAN: And did you try to respond to them as they talked to you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Sure.

MR. COCHRAN: Did you try to be friendly and cooperative?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Sure.

MR. COCHRAN: Did Mr. Darden's tone toward you ever become friendly at any time during the conversation?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Not--

MR. DARDEN: Objection, your Honor. This is completely irrelevant.

THE COURT: I'm going to sustain the objection to that particular question.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. I will ask another one.

THE COURT: But we have established the tone.

MR. COCHRAN: Okay. Thank you.

MR. COCHRAN: Did that tone remain the same throughout?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Exactly.

MR. COCHRAN: Unfriendly tone?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Exactly.

MR. COCHRAN: How long were you with these three men on that date of memorial day of 1995?

MR. HEIDSTRA: About 25 minutes, something like that.

MR. COCHRAN: Now, yesterday in your testimony, you indicated to us that you had heard a gate clanging. Do you remember that?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And at the time you heard this gate clanging, you couldn't see which gate that was, could you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, no, no.

MR. COCHRAN: And although you described for us at first the dog that you believed was the Akita barking, were you ever able to see the Akita that night?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Never saw him.

MR. COCHRAN: But you thought that you recognized that particular bark, having heard it before?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Oh, yes, yes.

MR. COCHRAN: Was that the same thing as with the black dog?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes, yes, sure.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Now, with regard to this case, did you have occasion to hear or see the opening statements in this particular case back in January of 1995?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes, I did.

MR. COCHRAN: And when--did you see it on television or what did you do?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Excuse me. I was home.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. You observed it on television?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And did you hear statements regarding the times that certain things had happened out there on Bundy on June 12th, 1994?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Oh, yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And when you heard those things, what--how did that affect you?

MR. DARDEN: Objection, irrelevant.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. HEIDSTRA: Very surprised.

THE COURT: Wait, wait. Mr. Heidstra, when an objection is made and I sustain the objection, you are not to answer the question.

MR. HEIDSTRA: Okay.

MR. DARDEN: Motion to strike, your Honor.

THE COURT: Stricken.

MR. COCHRAN: When you heard the opening statements did you at that point make any statements?

MR. DARDEN: Objection.

MR. COCHRAN: He can answer that yes or no.

MR. DARDEN: Irrelevant.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Did you at any time after the opening statements talk to anybody from the Prosecution at all?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, not--no, no, no.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Did you talk to--did you make any statements to anybody else at that time?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Now, in this conversation that you had with Mr. Darden and these two gentlemen, did they ever suggest anything to you at all?

MR. DARDEN: Objection, vague.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. HEIDSTRA: No.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And did you--did the subject of where you come from ever come up?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: Was anything said about that--may I approach, your Honor?

MR. COCHRAN: May we approach just a moment regarding this?

THE COURT: Sustained as hearsay.

MR. COCHRAN: May we approach with this?

THE COURT: No. Sustained as hearsay.

MR. COCHRAN: Well, I want to ask a question and I--all right. Well, before I ask the question I would like to tell you about that question, I think.

THE COURT: With the court reporter, please.

(The following proceedings were held at the bench:)

THE COURT: All right. We are over at the side bar. Mr. Cochran, where are you going with this?

MR. COCHRAN: Thank you.

THE COURT: You've already gotten out that he was asked about his immigration status.

MR. COCHRAN: Right. But he also--what he would say is that this is an offer of proof of what he told me, but Darden asked where he was from and he says, "What are you doing here? Don't you want to go back there" or words to that effect. He took that has an indication that they are saying you should get lost or get out of here, and he was offended by that, so before I would ask that in front of the jury I wanted to at least preview that to you. That is what he indicated to me. So I wanted to ask him that question. And it would be improper if that happened. And I wasn't there, but that is what the witness says and he says they were unfriendly and nasty to him and asked about his immigration status. They had no interest at all in any of the events of what he had seen, but they just wanted to know about him and his job and that sort of thing and he felt they treated him badly as a citizen. That is what he felt. So before I asked that question, as I promised you, side bars, I promised you I would come up. And it goes to their whole stand and rush to judgment aspect.

MR. DARDEN: I'm extremely disappointed, your Honor, in Mr. Cochran, that he would resort to this type of character assassination of myself. In any event, that is completely irrelevant. And so that the record is clear, we had a talk about your Honor and France and I asked him when was the last time he had been home. I already knew that he was an American citizen because he had told me that he was. And I asked him where he was from because I heard that he was from France and we had a conversation with another French woman and I wanted to know if he spoke French and where he was from and that will become apparent I think as we go through the cross-examination. But you know, this is low. This is low.

MR. COCHRAN: Well, first of all, talking about low, they asked questions in front of a jury. I have the dignity and integrity to ask you before I say anything. I have an obligation to my client. If a witness tells me something, I have an obligation to come up here and ask you, not like they do in front of the jury. I'm telling what you the witness has indicated to me.

MR. DARDEN: Mr. Cochran is desperate. None of that happened.

MR. COCHRAN: Desperate?

MR. DARDEN: I should indicate this as well. I was actually very ill that morning, but I know you don't care much about that.

THE COURT: I take it this is a 352 objection because what is said to him and what his impressions were as to what he meant is really not tremendously relevant at this point.

MR. COCHRAN: Relevant--isn't it? Well, your Honor--relevant, your Honor? Here is the reason it is relevant, and I will submit it after that. We hear all this talk about a search for truth. We find out there are all these witnesses that have come forward, who they know about, credible, who have information that was far different than what they have said. Truth according to the Prosecution, and then there is the truth, and so then if these people are all relevant and the witnesses are--who they don't want fit into their timeline are treated in a certain way. Isn't that relevant, your Honor?

THE COURT: It is relevant and these people come in through the Defense and testify.

MR. DARDEN: Mr. Heidstra does fit into our timeline.

THE COURT: But his reaction to something that was said, first of all, is hearsay. Secondly, I think there is a good 352 so I will sustain the objection.

THE COURT: Thank you.

(The following proceedings were held in open court:)

THE COURT: Thank you, counsel. Mr. Cochran.

MR. COCHRAN: Thank you very kindly, your Honor.

MR. COCHRAN: During this conversation that you had with these gentlemen, who did most of the talking from the Prosecution side?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Mr. Darden.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Did the other two men talk at all?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Very little.

MR. COCHRAN: It was mostly Mr. Darden and you responded?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes, yes, yes.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Now, your Honor, I would like to put one of the boards back up, if I can.

(Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)

MR. COCHRAN: You have described for us that you were an auto detailer; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. COCHRAN: And before June 12th of 1994, you had never personally met Mr. O.J. Simpson, had you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Never, never.

MR. COCHRAN: And I think you indicated yesterday, however, that you had--had occasion to work and detail cars throughout the Brentwood area; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. COCHRAN: Had you ever had occasion to go over and represent or work for a client over on Rockingham?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: Did you do some work for some clients by the name of the Salingers?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Sure.

MR. COCHRAN: And did the Salingers live right next door to where Mr. O.J. Simpson lives?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And I want you to just turn briefly, if the Court would allow, and look at 1239 there, which is a Defense exhibit, no. 1239. And do you see Mr. O.J. Simpson's home on that?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. COCHRAN: Is that a fair and accurate portrayal of his residence as you saw it?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Sure.

MR. COCHRAN: The times before June, 1994?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Sure, exactly. Right, right.

MR. COCHRAN: While you are standing there, would you point out and would you show the ladies and gentlemen of the jury where your clients, the Salingers, live.

MR. HEIDSTRA: Next door.

MR. COCHRAN: He is pointing to the house immediately--

THE COURT: Immediately to the south.

MR. COCHRAN: --south of Mr. Simpson's house?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. COCHRAN: Thank you very kindly.

MR. COCHRAN: Now--had you ever at any time even seen O.J. Simpson at any time while you were at the Salingers?

MR. HEIDSTRA: One time I guess. Just one time.

MR. COCHRAN: Did you ever talk to him?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Never.

MR. COCHRAN: Just saw him in passing?

MR. HEIDSTRA: He saw me in the yard with Mr. Salinger one time.

MR. COCHRAN: That is the only time you ever saw him?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes, yes.

MR. COCHRAN: Let's talk about this. On that particular night, on the night that we have been talking about on June 12th, I would like to go back for just a moment. You described for us yesterday that you--after you heard these sounds that you described for us yesterday you continued on through this alley that paralleled Bundy and at some point you approached and you were trying to go down to Dorothy; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. COCHRAN: And at some point you did walk and get to Dorothy; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, Dorothy.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. So you pointed to Dorothy on People's 26?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And at some point did you ever see any vehicles in and around that area as you got to Dorothy Street that particular night?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes. I walked up a little two, three houses up the street.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. So that we are clear, your Honor, I think he is indicating that he had proceeded up Dorothy.

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. COCHRAN: In the direction of where your house is?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. COCHRAN: Is that right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

THE COURT: Indicating eastbound on Dorothy.

MR. COCHRAN: Eastbound on Dorothy, as I understand it, your Honor.

MR. COCHRAN: And at that point did you see any vehicle at any point?

MR. HEIDSTRA: When I looked back to Bundy where the noise came from.

MR. COCHRAN: All right.

MR. HEIDSTRA: And there is a street light on the corner of Bundy and Dorothy.

MR. COCHRAN: Yes.

MR. HEIDSTRA: And when I was looking there from the commotion, I was listening to two minutes.

MR. COCHRAN: About what time would that be now that you are looking about?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Around quarter to 11:00.

MR. COCHRAN: Around 10:45?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. COCHRAN: Quarter to 11:00?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. COCHRAN: You looked back and before that--let me ask you, had you seen my cars around that location?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, no, no.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. You looked back. Did you see any cars at this point or any traffic out on Bundy?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah. Two cars were passing on Bundy going south and north, I guess.

MR. COCHRAN: Okay. Two cars were passing on Bundy?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. COCHRAN: Going south; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. COCHRAN: And south would be down toward what street, toward Wilshire?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Toward Wilshire.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And did you--could you describe those two cars at all?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No. They went fast on Bundy.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. They were moving kind of quickly?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, yeah.

MR. COCHRAN: You couldn't--

MR. HEIDSTRA: I don't remember those.

MR. COCHRAN: So that we are clear, when you saw these two cars, sir, point again to People's 26 and show us generally where you were at the time you saw these cars?

MR. HEIDSTRA: About here, (Indicating).

MR. COCHRAN: All right. The cars were going down Bundy, south on Bundy?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, yeah.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Did you see any other car at any point?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah. When I was looking there I saw from the west side of Dorothy, the side of Nicole's condo came out of the darkness, a white car into the light, the street light on the corner.

MR. COCHRAN: Which direction was that car going?

MR. HEIDSTRA: From Dorothy on this side and it stopped here on the corner of Dorothy and Bundy.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Did that car make a turn or did it go up Dorothy or what did it do?

MR. HEIDSTRA: It made a turn.

MR. COCHRAN: Which direction did it go?

MR. HEIDSTRA: A right turn and went south.

MR. COCHRAN: Are you sure that vehicle went south?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Sure, sure.

MR. COCHRAN: That would be toward Wilshire Boulevard?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Toward Wilshire Boulevard.

MR. COCHRAN: What color was the color?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Very light color, white or light.

MR. COCHRAN: Light or white?

MR. HEIDSTRA: It was white or something.

MR. COCHRAN: Did you see that car very clearly?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I could clearly see it.

MR. COCHRAN: How far away were you from the car?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I would say 50 yards at least.

MR. COCHRAN: 50 yards?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. COCHRAN: About 150 feet?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, yeah.

MR. COCHRAN: Could you see anybody, whether there was one, two, three people in that car?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, nothing.

MR. COCHRAN: Why was that why couldn't you tell?

MR. HEIDSTRA: The distance I could not see.

MR. COCHRAN: You were too far away?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Oh, yeah.

MR. COCHRAN: Could you describe anything about the person or persons in that car at all?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. But is it your testimony that that car came up Dorothy and then proceeded right to go south on Bundy?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, it went south on Bundy.

MR. COCHRAN: Now, did you--can you describe generally that car and what kind of a car it appeared to be, if you could?

MR. HEIDSTRA: It appeared to be a wagon car, Jeep like car.

MR. COCHRAN: A wagon or Jeep?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, something around there.

MR. COCHRAN: But you can't tell us what kind of wagon or Jeep that was?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No. Not really, no.

MR. COCHRAN: To you it appeared to be light in color?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Could be Blazer or Jeep Cherokee, something like that.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. But you don't know what it was; is that right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No.

MR. COCHRAN: Now, when you talked to the police back early in June of 1994, you told them about seeing this vehicle?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Did you ever tell the police that vehicle was heading north?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Never, no.

MR. COCHRAN: You always told them it was heading south?

MR. HEIDSTRA: South.

MR. COCHRAN: So that we are clear, if you proceeded north on Bundy and made a left turn there in going north on Bundy, would that be going toward Sunset?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Oh, sure.

MR. COCHRAN: And south would be going toward Wilshire; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. COCHRAN: And the Rockingham residence that I showed you earlier, that Rockingham residence is which way, toward north?

MR. HEIDSTRA: North of Sunset.

MR. COCHRAN: So you are sure that all these three cars that you saw turned going right or south on Bundy; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. COCHRAN: Do you recall seeing--you may resume the seat now.

MR. HEIDSTRA: (Witness complies.) yeah.

MR. COCHRAN: Do you recall seeing any other cars that you haven't told us about?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, no.

MR. COCHRAN: Just the three you have now talked about?

THE COURT: Excuse me, Mr. Cochran. I have asked Mr. Heidstra now twice to allow you to finish asking your questions. You are going to have to be a little more precise on how you ask your questions. Mr. Heidstra, please let Mr. Cochran finish asking you the question before you start to answer, please. All right.

MR. COCHRAN: Certainly, your Honor.

MR. HEIDSTRA: Sorry.

MR. COCHRAN: Certainly.

MR. COCHRAN: Do you recall seeing any other cars that night when you were in the location of Dorothy approaching your house?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. So that all you saw that night were the three cars you have now told us about?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. After you saw these three cars that were heading south on Bundy, where did you next go? Where did you continue at that point?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I continued to go back home.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And then you continued on to your house that you have described for us yesterday?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And you got back home right at about eleven o'clock?

MR. DARDEN: Objection, your Honor, leading.

MR. COCHRAN: Strike that.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. COCHRAN: I will restate it, your Honor.

MR. COCHRAN: What time did you get back home?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Well, I stood in front of where I live for a couple of minutes listening to the commotion of the dogs. They were still barking.

MR. COCHRAN: All right.

MR. HEIDSTRA: And all of a sudden they went slow and slow barking and I went inside.

MR. COCHRAN: What time was that?

MR. HEIDSTRA: It was about 11:00 because I turned the TV on the local channel and the news was just starting, just announcing the news on the local channels.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Now, you've come here today and yesterday pursuant to subpoena from the Defense?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And you don't prefer one side of this lawsuit over the other, do you?

MR. DARDEN: Objection. That is leading, your Honor.

MR. HEIDSTRA: No.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. COCHRAN: Are you here to favor either side in this case at all?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Not at all.

MR. COCHRAN: Why are you here?

MR. HEIDSTRA: To tell the truth what I saw and what I heard.

MR. COCHRAN: Have you told us the truth here?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes, sir.

MR. COCHRAN: Thank you very much for coming.

THE COURT: Mr. Darden.

MR. DARDEN: Thank you, your Honor. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

THE JURY: Good morning.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. DARDEN

MR. DARDEN: Good morning, Mr. Heidstra.

MR. HEIDSTRA: Good morning, Mr. Darden.

MR. DARDEN: This is the second time we have said good morning to each other; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes, exactly, just before.

MR. DARDEN: When we came into court this morning we greeted each other?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right, yes.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. Did I understand you to testify, Mr. Heidstra, that when you arrived at the end of the alley at Dorothy that you saw a vehicle at the corner of Dorothy and Bundy?

MR. HEIDSTRA: When I walked up the street a few houses and then I looked back toward Bundy and then I saw one of the cars coming down from the west side of Dorothy.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. Now, Nicole Simpson's condo was on the west side of Bundy; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. And Dorothy is just a little bit south of Nicole Brown Simpson's condo?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Exactly, exactly.

MR. DARDEN: So the vehicle that you saw then was going west toward Bundy, right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, it came to Bundy.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. The vehicle stopped at Bundy?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. And this vehicle, Mr. Heidstra, it was white, wasn't it?

MR. HEIDSTRA: White, yeah, very light.

MR. DARDEN: It was a sports--

MR. HEIDSTRA: I would say white.

MR. DARDEN: It was a sport utility vehicle, wasn't it?

MR. HEIDSTRA: A sport?

MR. DARDEN: Yeah.

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, it was like a Jeep or wagon car.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. A four-wheel drive sort of vehicle?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Probably, yes.

MR. DARDEN: It wasn't a car, was it?

MR. HEIDSTRA: It was a car, yes.

MR. DARDEN: Well, was it a car in the sense that it was like a van or a truck?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, it was like a wagon, wagon car, Jeep like car.

MR. DARDEN: When you talked to the police initially, you told them that you thought that the vehicle might be a Blazer; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah. They asked me if was a Blazer. It looks like a Blazer car.

MR. DARDEN: And did it look like a Blazer?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, that size of car.

MR. DARDEN: I'm sorry?

MR. HEIDSTRA: The size of the car was like a Blazer.

MR. DARDEN: Ford Blazer?

MR. COCHRAN: Just a moment. I object. The Blazer is not a Ford.

MR. DARDEN: I'm sorry.

THE COURT: Excuse me. You need to stand.

MR. COCHRAN: Objection.

THE COURT: Thank you. Sustained.

MR. DARDEN: I'm sorry.

THE COURT: Rephrase the question.

MR. DARDEN: A Blazer is made by Chevrolet?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes, yes.

MR. DARDEN: And you also said that it resembled a Ford; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I don't recall that.

MR. DARDEN: Well, did you tell the police that the vehicle resembled a Ford Bronco?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Never.

MR. COCHRAN: Asked and answered, your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. HEIDSTRA: I said it looks like a wagon. I told them, a wagon or Jeep like car.

MR. DARDEN: Didn't you tell the police that the vehicle looked like a Ford Bronco?

MR. COCHRAN: Asked and answered, your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, sir.

MR. DARDEN: Were you interviewed by the police, Mr. Heidstra?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: And before we get to that, Mr. Heidstra, you have talked to other people about the vehicle that you saw at Bundy and Dorothy that night; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: You talked to a reporter from channel 2, didn't you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: And didn't you tell that reporter from channel 2 that the vehicle looked like a Ford Bronco?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I don't recall that. I said it must be a van, a Jeep or a wagon.

MR. DARDEN: Did you tell the reporter that the vehicle looked like a Ford Bronco?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I don't recall that.

MR. DARDEN: Are you saying that you did not or are you saying you just don't remember?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I don't recall. I don't recall. I don't recall.

MR. DARDEN: Did you see yourself on the news this past Monday night, Mr. Heidstra?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Just a little shot, yeah, I saw.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. And did you see yourself on the news discussing whether or not the vehicle looked like a Ford Bronco?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No. I just saw little just a shot of it when I came home.

MR. DARDEN: And you know someone named Patricia, don't you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. And Patricia works at a veterinarian's office?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. DARDEN: And she is also French; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, she is French.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. And you speak French?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I do.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. And she speaks French?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: And you have talked to Patricia?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes, we talk.

MR. DARDEN: About your observations that night; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: Did you tell Patricia that the vehicle resembled a Ford Bronco?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I told her that it was like a wagon, a wagon car, big like a Jeep.

MR. DARDEN: Did you tell Patricia that the vehicle looked like a Ford Bronco?

MR. COCHRAN: Asked and answered, your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. HEIDSTRA: Like a Blazer, Blazer car. Might have said maybe a Bronco. I don't recall that.

MR. DARDEN: In your opinion does a Chevy Blazer and a Ford Bronco resemble each other.

MR. HEIDSTRA: They resemble each other, I would say so, yes.

MR. DARDEN: And you do detail cars; is that right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. And do you detail a Mercedes Benz for a man named Mr. Field?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. DARDEN: You have talked to Mr. Field about your observations; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes, we did.

MR. DARDEN: And didn't you tell Mr. Field that the vehicle you saw was a Ford Bronco?

MR. HEIDSTRA: It could have been a Blazer or Ford Bronco. They resemble.

MR. DARDEN: Mr. Heidstra--

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. DARDEN: --please, sir, did you tell Mr. Field that the vehicle you saw looked like a Ford Bronco?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I might have said that. Might have said like it was a Blazer. It could be a Blazer, too.

MR. DARDEN: Mr. Heidstra--

MR. HEIDSTRA: I don't know exactly.

MR. DARDEN: Did you tell Mr. Field that the vehicle appeared to be a Ford Bronco?

MR. COCHRAN: Asked and answered, your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. HEIDSTRA: I might have said that probably, but I don't recall that. I said--

(Brief pause.)

MR. DARDEN: You said you might have said that, Mr. Heidstra?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Might have said that. He understood that I said it was a Bronco, but I could have said it is like a Blazer or a Jeep car, a light color car.

MR. DARDEN: Did you use the word "Bronco" during your conversation with Mr. Field when you described the vehicle you saw?

MR. COCHRAN: Asked and answered, your Honor.

MR. HEIDSTRA: I don't know.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. HEIDSTRA: It may be a long time ago. I don't recall that. I don't recall that at all.

MR. DARDEN: You have given us a detailed account of your walk that night; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. And have you attempted to be detailed in your account of what you saw and heard that night?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Can you repeat it again, please?

MR. DARDEN: Have you attempted to provide us with a detailed account?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Exactly, yes.

MR. DARDEN: You have tried to be as accurate as you could possibly be; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I tried to.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. Now, the vehicle that you saw make that right turn from Dorothy onto Bundy, that vehicle had tinted windows, didn't it?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah. It looked like tinted windows, yes.

MR. DARDEN: And it had a chrome bumper from the back?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I couldn't see the back. It was too big distance.

MR. DARDEN: Did you ever tell anyone that it had a chrome bumper on the back, Mr. Heidstra?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I never said--never said that to anybody, not that I remember.

MR. DARDEN: I'm sorry, I can't hear you.

MR. HEIDSTRA: I never saw that. Could never see that from the distance.

MR. DARDEN: So the vehicle was white and it had tinted windows?

MR. COCHRAN: Your Honor, I object to that. Misstates the testimony. He said light color.

THE COURT: Overruled. Rephrase your question, counsel.

MR. DARDEN: And this vehicle that you saw, when it made that right turn onto Bundy, did you hear the tires screech?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No. It accelerated fast but I didn't hear the tires, no.

MR. DARDEN: It accelerated fast?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Pretty fast, yeah.

MR. DARDEN: And you noticed that, didn't you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I did notice that, yes, sure.

MR. DARDEN: Did you consider that unusual at the time?

MR. COCHRAN: Object to the form of the question, your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. HEIDSTRA: If the person was in a hurry maybe or something.

MR. DARDEN: Well, did you wonder if that person was in a hurry?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, looks like he was in a hurry.

MR. DARDEN: Did you wonder why that person was in a hurry?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Why?

MR. DARDEN: Yes.

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, no. I don't know the driver. I don't know.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. So when this white vehicle that looked like a Bronco with tinted windows--

MR. COCHRAN: Object to the form of the question, your Honor. Misstates the evidence, your Honor.

THE COURT: Sustained. Rephrase the question.

MR. DARDEN: Did the vehicle look like a Bronco?

MR. COCHRAN: Asked and answered, your Honor.

MR. HEIDSTRA: I said again like a Blazer. It could have been a Bronco. I don't know.

THE COURT: Excuse me. Mr. Heidstra, when you hear an organization, don't answer the question.

MR. HEIDSTRA: I'm sorry, sir.

THE COURT: Let the attorney finish asking the question before you start your answer. Pull the microphone close to you, please.

MR. HEIDSTRA: (Witness complies.)

THE COURT: Thank you. All right. Rephrase the question.

MR. DARDEN: Mr. Heidstra, you testified a little while ago that you are not here to favor either side in this case; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: That's correct.

MR. DARDEN: Do you have some financial interest in the outcome of this case, Mr. Heidstra?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Not at all. Not at all.

MR. DARDEN: Are you planning on making some money by testifying in this case, Mr. Heidstra?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Not at all.

MR. DARDEN: Didn't you tell Patricia Baret--is that how you pronounce her last name, Baret?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I guess so.

MR. DARDEN: Didn't you tell Patricia Baret when this case is finished you are going to make a lot of money?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I didn't say that.

MR. DARDEN: You never told her that?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Maybe something might come out of it, but I never said a lot of money.

MR. DARDEN: So you think you might make some money as a result of testifying in this case?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Maybe. I don't know.

MR. DARDEN: And you could use a few dollars, right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes, yes.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. The apartment that you live in is located on Dorothy?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. And where in the building is your apartment located?

MR. HEIDSTRA: In the front.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. Now, you mentioned something yesterday about a sub-garage?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Sub-garage, yeah.

MR. DARDEN: Is your apartment located in the sub-garage?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. DARDEN: And your apartment is a one-room apartment; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. DARDEN: And you live in that apartment with your two dogs?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. DARDEN: The two elderly dogs?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. DARDEN: You live there alone?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Alone, yes.

MR. DARDEN: With the two dogs?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. DARDEN: And you lived there for 17 years alone with those two dogs?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. DARDEN: And the only kind of work you do is washing cars?

MR. COCHRAN: Object to the to the question.

MR. DARDEN: And detailing cars; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: I object to the form of the question.

THE COURT: Hold it. Never mind.

MR. DARDEN: And not to demean you, but that is just how you make your living?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. You have dreams of one day having a lot of money, don't you?

MR. COCHRAN: Object to the form of that question, your Honor.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. DARDEN: Well, you have a desire--

MR. HEIDSTRA: Everybody I guess would have dreamed to have money.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. And you have a desire to one day have enough money to purchase a Rolls Royce, don't you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, I don't like Rolls Royces.

MR. DARDEN: Now, Mr. Field is a prominent businessman, is he not?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I guess so, yeah.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. Didn't you tell Mr. Field that as a result of this case that you expected to make enough money to purchase a Rolls Royce?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Never, never said that. I'm not interested in Rolls Royces in the first place. Maybe another car maybe. That could be.

MR. DARDEN: Well, the car that you have now is a `63 corvette?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, `72 corvette.

MR. DARDEN: `72 corvette. In poor condition, right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Pardon?

MR. DARDEN: And it is in poor condition; is that right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Important?

MR. DARDEN: Poor condition?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, it is in poor condition. Sorry.

MR. DARDEN: So you could use a new car?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, I wish I had it.

MR. DARDEN: Now, Patricia Baret, she works at the veterinarian's clinic; is that right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. DARDEN: You come in from time to time with your dogs?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: Do you also wash the cars there for some of the people?

MR. HEIDSTRA: For the doctor, yes.

MR. DARDEN: So you wash cars in exchange for veterinarian services?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, no, no. They pay me with a check always.

MR. DARDEN: And while you are there, on occasion you talked to Patricia Baret; is that right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: Do you go there every week?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Every other week.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. And you and she talk just about every other week; is that right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Not much. She is in the front office and I'm in the back doing the car.

MR. DARDEN: But you always talk with her about the case, don't you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Sometimes when it comes up. Not all the time.

MR. DARDEN: And when you speak to Miss Baret about the case, you always speak to her in French?

MR. HEIDSTRA: She starts speaking to me in French so I answer in French.

MR. DARDEN: Now, you testified that you do some work for the Salingers; is that right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. DARDEN: And they live next door to O.J. Simpson?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. DARDEN: Okay.

MR. HEIDSTRA: And the Salingers have a maid; is that correct, or they had a maid?

MR. HEIDSTRA: They had a maid.

MR. DARDEN: That maid's name was Rosa Lopez, wasn't it?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes, sure.

MR. DARDEN: And Rosa Lopez is someone who is on the Defense witness list, isn't she?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. And you have spoken to Rosa Lopez?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Oh, yes, a long time ago.

MR. DARDEN: You spoke to her about the case; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, we talk.

MR. DARDEN: And in response to Mr. Cochran's questions you told us that you met me on memorial day?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I met you on memorial day, yes.

MR. DARDEN: And you talked to Detective Payne, was it, on other occasions?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Well, that is a long time ago.

MR. DARDEN: But I wasn't the first Prosecutor to come out to your house and speak to you, was I?

MR. HEIDSTRA: It was Mr. Payne when the murders happened that he came to my door.

MR. DARDEN: Have you ever met Mr. Hodgman out there?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes, I met him once.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. You understand that Mr. Hodgman is with the D.A.'s office?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: And did you go on a walk with Mr. Hodgman?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, never.

MR. DARDEN: So both Mr. Hodgman and myself have been out to your house; is that right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Well, Mr. Hodgman, I met him, he passed by with Mr. Payne in a car.

MR. DARDEN: Okay.

MR. HEIDSTRA: And I was walking my dogs.

MR. DARDEN: And Mr. Stevens, he is an investigator for my office?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. DARDEN: He has been out to your house a couple of times?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Never.

MR. DARDEN: He was out there with me; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: That is the first time.

MR. DARDEN: So all in all then you have had, what, four visits then from police officers or Prosecutors in this case?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah. Mr. Payne most of the time, three times or something.

MR. DARDEN: But you have also had visits from other lawyers, haven't you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: From whom?

MR. DARDEN: You have been visited by other lawyers in this case; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Lawyers?

MR. DARDEN: Yes.

MR. HEIDSTRA: I don't recall, no.

MR. DARDEN: Well, do you know F. Lee Bailey?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Oh, yes. I met him. Sorry, yes.

MR. DARDEN: You understand that he is a lawyer?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: Have you met him at your house?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Not in my house.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. But you met him somewhere else; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. DARDEN: Where did you meet him?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I met him down the street on Bundy and Dorothy. He was there with the investigator.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. And you spoke to Mr. Bailey?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, we introduced to Mr. Bailey.

MR. DARDEN: But you have spoken to Mr. Bailey on a number of occasions; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Never, no; only one time.

MR. DARDEN: Only one time?

MR. HEIDSTRA: One time.

MR. DARDEN: Who was the investigator that was with Mr. Bailey?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Mr. McKenna.

MR. DARDEN: How many times have you spoken to Mr. McKenna?

MR. HEIDSTRA: About four or five times at least.

MR. DARDEN: And you and Mr. McKenna had a little experiment going out there at Bundy, didn't you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: At the time I met Mr. Bailey?

MR. DARDEN: Well, how about that time? Did you and Mr. McKenna run a little experiment out there?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No. He came to my door and introduced me to Mr. Bailey.

MR. DARDEN: Well, Mr. Bailey--

MR. HEIDSTRA: Down the street. Mr. McKenna--

MR. DARDEN: Mr. McKenna came to your door?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. DARDEN: And he asked you to walk down to the end of the block and meet Mr. Bailey?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right, right, right, right, right.

MR. DARDEN: You testified yesterday that you heard a gate slam; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: And when you heard that gate slam--

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

MR. DARDEN: And when you heard that gate--well, you said you heard that gate slam. You heard a gate slam?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right, right.

MR. DARDEN: And when you heard that gate slam would you just show us where you were exactly when you heard that gate slam.

MR. HEIDSTRA: Here, (Indicating).

MR. DARDEN: Now, could you just keep the pointer there and come around to the other side.

MR. HEIDSTRA: Sorry.

MR. DARDEN: Show us again, please.

MR. HEIDSTRA: (Indicating).

MR. DARDEN: So you were in the alley; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. DARDEN: In the middle of the alley?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right here, (Indicating).

MR. DARDEN: Could you step back up and repeat your answer. My question was were you in the middle of the alley?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Just on the side there from the alley; not in the middle. I don't recall that exactly. I was standing there.

THE COURT: All right. Mr. Darden, you are referring to Defense exhibit--

MR. DARDEN: Yes, your Honor. Defense exhibit 1239.

THE COURT: Thank you.

MR. DARDEN: And Mr. Heidstra, this alley is east of Bundy; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: So you are in the alley, right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. DARDEN: Between you and the alley is other--strike that. Between you and Bundy there is a garage; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah. There is a garage on the left, yeah.

MR. DARDEN: That garage was in front of you when you heard the gate slam?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. DARDEN: And beyond the garage or just beyond the garage and west going west toward Bundy is a house; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, beyond the garage, yeah, there is a house.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. So there was a garage and a house between you and that gate?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right, exactly.

MR. DARDEN: And then beyond the house there is the sidewalk; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, it is on higher level ground than Nicole's property, so you can hear the sound even better there.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. So then there is a garage, a house and a sidewalk between you and that gate at 875 south Bundy?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right, right, right, right.

MR. DARDEN: And then there is a street, isn't there?

MR. HEIDSTRA: There is Bundy, yeah.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. That is a fairly wide street, is it?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, two lanes. Pretty wide street.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. Then on the opposite side of Bundy, which would be the west side, there is also grass and a sidewalk?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right. It is not very big sidewalk, very small.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. And a walkway that leads up to the front of 875 south Bundy, correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, that comes out there.

MR. DARDEN: And yet it is your testimony that the gate that you heard slam this night was the gate at 875 south Bundy, Mr. Heidstra?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Sure, because I was just opposite Nicole's condo and the ground I told you is higher level. You can hear the sound even better.

MR. DARDEN: Could you hear--strike that. Could you see the gate at 875 south Bundy?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, the garage. I could never see it.

MR. DARDEN: There is no way for you to see the gate at 875 south Bundy, is there?

MR. COCHRAN: Object, your Honor, asked and answered.

THE COURT: Overruled. It is argumentative, though, the way it is phrased.

MR. DARDEN: Would you agree that it was impossible to see the gate from that location?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I could never see the gate.

MR. DARDEN: Well, how is it then that you formed the opinion that the gate that you heard slam was the gate at 875 south Bundy?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Because I passed by with my dogs and I--the Akita has been always behind that gate and I said, boy, that is the gate from the Akita. I was just opposite it.

MR. DARDEN: That is not what you told the police, is it?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Oh, yes. I told them I heard the gate slamming.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. You told the police you heard the gate slam?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah. Mr. Payne said, "Boy, that must have been Nicole's condo."

MR. DARDEN: And what reason did you give them for forming the opinion that it must have been Nicole Brown's condo?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Because--because of that commotion with the Akita and I knew he lived there.

MR. DARDEN: Isn't it true that you told the police--and you talked to the police on June 21st of 1994; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah. It must be about that date.

MR. DARDEN: Isn't it true that you told the police that in your opinion the sound of the slamming gate came from Nicole Brown's residence because that is the only one in the area with a large metal security gate?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Well, there is another gate from the neighbors, I guess have a gate there, but it sound for me, because of that Akita, I knew--I said it must be the gate.

MR. DARDEN: There are several gates located on the west side of Bundy; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: There is--there is more gates.

MR. DARDEN: Several metal gates?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Metal gates, yeah.

MR. DARDEN: Up and down that street, correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Next door the big condo has one big one, two or three.

MR. DARDEN: There are gates in front of 875 and the adjoining condo; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: The adjoining, yeah. Yes.

MR. DARDEN: There are gates behind both of those condos, correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: You mean on the other side, on the alley side?

MR. DARDEN: Yes.

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, there must be gates there. There are gates there.

MR. DARDEN: Would you agree that there are approximately 21 gates, metal gates, on the buildings located on the west side of Bundy between Gorham and Dorothy?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I never counted them.

MR. DARDEN: How many would you say there are?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I just noticed the front gate on Bundy. That is it.

MR. DARDEN: Now, you understand, Mr. Heidstra--well, strike that. Was it your understanding that the only way you could make money after this case would be if you came here to testify?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, I never thought about that. I just come here to tell the truth from both sides.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. But do you admit that you told other people that you hoped to make some money off this case when it was over?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I didn't say. Jokingly we talked about it. Like everybody will do, you joke about that, joking.

MR. DARDEN: But you did say that, didn't you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I said that, yes.

MR. DARDEN: Okay.

MR. HEIDSTRA: But not a lot of money. I said some money maybe.

MR. DARDEN: All right. Could I have one moment, your Honor?

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

MR. DARDEN: Mr. Heidstra, it is your testimony that you usually walk your dog at ten o'clock; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: That is my routine, yes.

MR. DARDEN: But on this particular night you say you were running a little late?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah. I was reading the paper and I didn't look at the time.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. So you got up and you left the house?

MR. HEIDSTRA: My dog gave me the signal and I look at my watch and it was quarter past 10:00.

MR. DARDEN: Looked at your watch?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: And your watch said a quarter past 10:00?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Oh, sure, sure.

MR. DARDEN: Okay.

MR. HEIDSTRA: I knew it because I was late. I said, you are right, we have to go, it is quarter past 10:00.

MR. DARDEN: When you spoke to the police on June 21st, 1994, did you tell them that you looked at your watch before leaving?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Sure.

MR. COCHRAN: Object to the form of the question, your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. DARDEN: All right. So it was a quarter past 10:00 when you walked outside?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Absolutely.

MR. DARDEN: You took one of the dogs?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Two.

MR. DARDEN: You took both dogs?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Both of them.

MR. DARDEN: Were those dogs on leashes?

MR. HEIDSTRA: One--the older would be--I take on my leash. He doesn't walk too good.

MR. DARDEN: Isn't it true that you never walk your dogs on a leash?

MR. HEIDSTRA: One I have on the leash, but the other one is always on the leash because he won't come with me, simple as that.

MR. DARDEN: So you do always walk one of the dogs on a leash?

MR. HEIDSTRA: The older one because he is too slow. I have to pull him with me.

MR. DARDEN: Is that yes?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. Now, about this routine, this ten o'clock routine that you have in terms of walking the dog? Isn't it true that you walk those dogs at any given time during the night; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, no, no, no.

MR. DARDEN: Isn't it true that you are always outside walking around with one of those dogs?

MR. HEIDSTRA: When I'm at home and I don't work, I do all the time, but when I work and I come home at six o'clock, I am immediately out.

MR. DARDEN: You walk the dog at least four times a night, don't you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, sir. I walk them at six o'clock and then at eight o'clock I walk the younger dog because he needs more exercise, and then at ten o'clock I walk the two a short walk around the block.

MR. DARDEN: Don't you walk the dogs at midnight sometimes on occasion?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Never. Midnight, no, I go to sleep.

MR. DARDEN: So no one could possibly see you then out walking the dog at midnight; is that correct?

MR. COCHRAN: Object to the form. Calls for speculation.

THE COURT: Sustained. Rephrase the question.

MR. DARDEN: At any rate, you say you left at 10:15?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Sure.

MR. DARDEN: It was your intention at that time to walk around the block; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. DARDEN: That is the route you usually walk?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. DARDEN: And so as you left your apartment you went east on Dorothy?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: And you went down to the corner?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. DARDEN: By the way, you--strike that. Sometimes you don't actually walk the dog, correct? Sometimes you just let the dogs run around in front of the building?

MR. HEIDSTRA: The younger one stays in front of the building sometime. He is very disciplined.

MR. DARDEN: You do that often, don't you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: When I'm home I let them out and the door is always open.

MR. DARDEN: You let the dogs run around in lieu of taking them for a walk?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Instead of a walk?

MR. DARDEN: Yes.

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, no, no.

MR. DARDEN: All your neighbors complain about you letting those dogs run around the front of the apartment, don't they?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No. He is just in front of my apartment and I never had a complaint from anybody, never.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. So you leave your building and you walk over to--what street did you walk over to?

MR. HEIDSTRA: That night?

MR. DARDEN: Yes.

MR. HEIDSTRA: I went to Westgate.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. You went to Westgate and you made a left?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I went north on Westgate.

MR. DARDEN: When you got to the corner, what did you do?

MR. HEIDSTRA: On Gorham--I went west on Gorham.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. So you made a left at Gorham?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. DARDEN: And you went west?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I went down the block of Gorham.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. You walked over to Bundy, correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. DARDEN: And it was as you approached Bundy that you heard a dog barking?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No. It was when I reached the corner of Bundy and Gorham, what comes together, from nowhere hell broke loose with the Akita. From nowhere he start to bark.

MR. DARDEN: That was the first time that you heard the dog barking?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Oh, yes. I was very surprised. It was so quiet at night as can be around there.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. You hadn't heard the dog barking prior to that?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Sometime before I walk with my dogs across the street on Bundy he was barking behind that gate.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. But let's talk about that night, June 13th.

MR. HEIDSTRA: That night, sorry, yeah.

MR. DARDEN: You hadn't heard the dog barking prior to your arrival at the corner?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No.

MR. DARDEN: Is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Absolutely.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. Now, was the barking loud?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Oh, yes, panicking or something or confused.

MR. DARDEN: Now, prior to that--well, strike that. Was the dog barking at 10:10?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I was--I was still in my apartment. I never heard a dog bark at that time.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. At 10:15 you were approximately a block away from 875 Bundy; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: 10:15 I left my apartment. 10:15 I was just in front of my apartment.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. So you were about a block away?

MR. HEIDSTRA: A block away, yeah, sure.

MR. DARDEN: Now, you don't know whether or not that dog--that dog's bark had been softer--softer prior to 10:30?

MR. COCHRAN: Object to that, your Honor. Calls for speculation.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. DARDEN: Correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I never heard it, no, no, never heard the dog barking.

MR. DARDEN: Have you heard that saying, you know, when a tree falls in the forest there is no one there to hear it, it doesn't make noise?

MR. COCHRAN: I object to this poetry.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. DARDEN: A poor attempt at poetry, if that is what it is, but have you ever heard that saying?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No.

MR. DARDEN: Well, had the dog's bark been softer prior to 10:30?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. DARDEN: You wouldn't have heard it, correct?

MR. COCHRAN: Your Honor, that is speculation.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. HEIDSTRA: I have never heard.

MR. COCHRAN: Just a moment.

THE COURT: Wait. Proceed.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. You don't know if the dog had been barking prior to your leaving your house?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, no, not at all. I didn't hear nothing.

MR. DARDEN: All you can tell us is when you first heard the dog bark; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Exactly.

MR. DARDEN: Don't know where the dog was at 10:15, do you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: At ten--no.

MR. DARDEN: 10:15?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, no, no, no, no.

MR. DARDEN: You don't know whether or not the dog was in front of 875 south Bundy at 10:15?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, at all, no.

MR. DARDEN: You don't know if the dog was upstairs in the condo with Sydney and Justin at 10:15?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No.

MR. COCHRAN: Your Honor, this is speculation.

MR. DARDEN: Is that correct?

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. DARDEN: You don't know if the dog was at the rear gate at 875 south Bundy at 10:15; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, because I just left my apartment. I don't know, no.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. When dogs are in distress do they make noises other than just barking?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I guess wailing maybe or something, you know.

MR. DARDEN: Do they make a noise that sort of sounds like a cry?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Could be, yeah, sure.

MR. DARDEN: Sounds a bit like a human cry, doesn't it?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. DARDEN: You don't know whether or not that Akita was standing over Nicole's body crying at 10:15, do you?

MR. COCHRAN: Your Honor, I object to the form of that question.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. DARDEN: And you can't testify to what other people heard? You can only testify to what you heard; is that correct?

MR. COCHRAN: Object to the form of that question, your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, that was the only one I've heard.

MR. DARDEN: I'm sorry?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I was there. I was the only one who heard that dog.

MR. DARDEN: Well, my question to you is this: You can't testify to what other people may have heard?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, sorry, no, no.

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

MR. DARDEN: Now, you didn't see anyone walking on Gorham and Bundy, did you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Nobody, nobody. It was very quiet there.

MR. DARDEN: You didn't see a woman in white pants walking at Gorham and Bundy?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, I didn't see anybody.

MR. DARDEN: Did you see a Nissan make a U-turn?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Where? On Bundy?

MR. DARDEN: Yes.

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, no traffic at all. There was no traffic at all.

MR. DARDEN: No traffic at all?

MR. HEIDSTRA: When I came down from Gorham, no, nothing.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. No vehicle traffic?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Not that I recall, no.

MR. DARDEN: No pedestrian traffic?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Not at all.

MR. DARDEN: You didn't see two women standing outside talking about how eerie the night was?

MR. HEIDSTRA: On Gorham you say or on Bundy?

MR. DARDEN: On Bundy?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, because I didn't--I just arrive on Bundy. I didn't go on Bundy.

MR. DARDEN: How about on Gorham?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Nobody was there. I didn't see anybody.

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

MR. DARDEN: I take it that your dogs bark on occasion?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes, sometimes somebody at the door.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. Has it been your experience that dogs bark and then stop and then bark again?

MR. COCHRAN: Object to the form of that question, your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, they bark, and they stop sometimes, sure.

MR. DARDEN: And then they continue to bark; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah. This was an unusual barking.

MR. DARDEN: And the barking that you heard sounded as if the dog was in distress, didn't it?

MR. HEIDSTRA: It was surprised, a surprised dog, confused, I would say, something like that.

MR. DARDEN: Now, did you ever tell Mr. Bailey that you hoped to make money as a result of testifying in this case?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, no.

MR. DARDEN: Did you tell Mr. McKenna that?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, no.

MR. DARDEN: Now, you told us that you reached Bundy, you heard the Akita?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. DARDEN: You turned around and you proceeded down the alley; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah. I decided to go in the alley.

MR. DARDEN: And as you walked south down that alley you say you heard voices?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Sure.

MR. DARDEN: Now, the first voice that you heard, how did you describe that voice yesterday?

MR. HEIDSTRA: It was, "Hey, hey, hey," three times.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. And did you say that that voice sounded like the voice of a young man?

MR. HEIDSTRA: It was a clear voice, yes. Sounded like a clear voice.

MR. DARDEN: Did the voice sound like the voice of a young man?

MR. COCHRAN: Object to the form of the question.

MR. HEIDSTRA: I don't know how young.

MR. COCHRAN: Calls for speculation.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. HEIDSTRA: Can I answer?

THE COURT: The answer--he has given an answer.

MR. DARDEN: I didn't hear it, I'm sorry.

(Brief pause.)

MR. DARDEN: Didn't you tell us yesterday that the voice was a youthful voice?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, it sound like a young voice.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. And when you heard that voice, you thought that that was the voice of a young white male, didn't you?

MR. COCHRAN: Object to the form of that question, your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. COCHRAN: Speculation, conclusion.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. COCHRAN: How can he tell if it was a white man, your Honor?

THE COURT: Counsel, overruled. Sit down. The way the question was phrased, if there is a question or statement that was made that says that, that is an appropriate question, counsel. Proceed.

MR. DARDEN: The voice sounded like the voice of a white male?

MR. HEIDSTRA: How could I say that is a white male? I don't know the voice. It could be anybody there.

MR. DARDEN: Did you ever tell Mr. Stevens, my investigator, that it sounded like a white male?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No.

MR. DARDEN: Never said that?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I don't recall that at all. I said it was a clear voice but never what kind of white or brown or yellow.

MR. DARDEN: And then there was that second voice, correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. DARDEN: And that second voice, that voice sounded deeper than the first voice, didn't it?

MR. HEIDSTRA: A little bit, but I couldn't hardly hear it with the dogs, the commotion with two dogs there. It was very short.

MR. DARDEN: Did you ever tell anyone that the second voice was a deep voice?

MR. HEIDSTRA: It was deep, it was deeper than the other one other than, "Hey, hey, hey."

MR. DARDEN: Okay. So the second voice was deeper than the first one?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, a little deeper. I couldn't hardly hear it. It was just very short.

MR. DARDEN: And the second voice that you heard, did it sound to you as if the person with the second voice was older than the person with the first voice?

MR. COCHRAN: Calls for speculation, your Honor.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. DARDEN: Okay.

THE COURT: Foundational.

MR. DARDEN: Can you tell us whether or not the second voice sounded more mature than the first voice?

MR. COCHRAN: Same objection.

MR. HEIDSTRA: I couldn't say that.

THE COURT: Hold on.

MR. DARDEN: The second voice that you heard sounded like the voice of a black man; is that correct?

MR. COCHRAN: Objected to, your Honor. I object.

THE COURT: Sustained. Sustained.

MR. HEIDSTRA: Of course not.

THE COURT: Wait, WAIT.

MR. COCHRAN: Just a moment.

THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, would you step into the jury room, please.

(The jury was excused and the following proceedings were held in open court, out of their presence:)

THE COURT: All right. Mr. Heidstra, you can step down. Mr. Darden, where are you going with this?

MR. DARDEN: Can we have Mr. Heidstra step outside?

THE COURT: Mr. Heidstra, why don't you step outside.

(Mr. Heidstra exits the courtroom.)

MR. DARDEN: Thank you for the opportunity to explain my position, your Honor. Your Honor, in the discovery we just provided the Defense, and in a statement Patricia Baret gave to Detective Tom Lange, she told Detective Lange that Heidstra told her that he heard what sounded to him to be a young man hollering, "Hey, hey, hey." Heidstra had then stated that he heard the very angry screaming of an older man who sounded black. And that is a good faith basis upon which I am asking these questions, your Honor.

THE COURT: Mr. Cochran.

MR. COCHRAN: First of all, we have never seen that statement and I resent--the reason I stood before--I resent that statement. You can't tell by somebody's voice whether they sounded black. I don't know who made that statement, Baret or Lange, and I resent that is a racist statement. I don't think you can tell whether somebody is a young--you can tell if it is a child or not--but I resent that entire area and I think it is entirely inappropriate. And we have never seen any statement in that regard. He walked over and handed Mr. Douglas a purported report from Miss Baret, but this statement about whether he sounds black or white is racist and I resent it and that is why I stood and objected. And I think it is totally improper in America at this time in 1995 we have to hear this and endure this.

MR. DARDEN: I didn't make the statement, your Honor.

MR. COCHRAN: Well, the Court--may I say one thing, your Honor? When I had a question about how Mr. Darden conducted himself on that morning, I approached the bench before I asked it in front of the jury because I think dignity and integrity require that, but to ask that question in front of the jury I think is totally, totally improper. And we have said back in chambers when this case started, when there was a questionable area we had promised you that we would approach the bench on those things. Didn't we not do that?

THE COURT: We did.

MR. COCHRAN: We have kept that word and they violated it again, so I resent that.

MR. DARDEN: I have always considered the question of race in this case, your Honor, to be questionable. If this is the witness' statement, then he is the racist and not me, but that is what you are suggesting.

MR. COCHRAN: I didn't say that.

THE COURT: Wait, wait.

MR. DARDEN: That is what has created a lot of problems for myself and my family, statements that you make about me and race, Mr. Cochran.

MR. COCHRAN: Your Honor--

THE COURT: Wait, wait, wait. I'm going to take a recess right now because I am so mad at both of you guys I'm about to hold both of you in contempt. We will take 15. If I see this conduct again from either of you two--

MR. DARDEN: I apologize, your Honor.

THE COURT: It will take more than that.

(Recess.)

(The following proceedings were held in open court, out of the presence of the jury:)

THE COURT: All right. Back on the record in the Simpson matter. All counsel are present. Mr. Simpson is present. The jury is not present. Counsel, I have warned counsel for both sides previously that the Court will not tolerate the personal attacks that have been exchanged and that started again this morning. All counsel are on notice that the next time that happens there will be severe sanctions. The issue before the Court is whether or not the Prosecution can attempt to impeach Mr. Heidstra. Mr. Heidstra, would you step outside, please.

(Mr. Heidstra exits the courtroom.)

THE COURT: The issue before the Court is whether or not the Prosecution can attempt to impeach Mr. Heidstra's testimony with statements alleged to have been made to other persons that are inconsistent with his statement to the jury here in court. Under 1235 of the evidence code there is a required compliance with evidence code section 770, that the person be confronted with or challenged or not released, one or the other, and that appears to be the process that I have seen here. To wave the racism flag at this point I think is not germane to the topic. The issue is was this statement made. The content of the statement, however repugnant, depending upon what your interpretation of the statement may be, is not particularly relevant. I have allowed the same type of impeachment for Detective Fuhrman. All right. Let's have Mr. Heidstra.

(Brief pause.)

THE COURT: All right. Mr. Heidstra, would you resume the witness stand, please. All right. Good morning again, Mr. Heidstra.

MR. HEIDSTRA: Good morning, Judge.

THE COURT: I want you to understand that I'm not mad at you, but I have several things on my mind. Would you please let the attorneys answer the question. Take a breath.

MR. HEIDSTRA: "Sustained" is no talking, shut up?

THE COURT: Correct. Let's have the jurors, please.

MR. HEIDSTRA: Could I have some water?

THE COURT: Mrs. Robertson, agua.

(Brief pause.)

MS. CLARK: Your Honor, while the jury is coming out can we approach briefly off the record?

THE COURT: No. Let's finish the morning.

MS. CLARK: Okay. I just--

THE COURT: Let's finish the morning.

(Brief pause.)

MR. DARDEN: Your Honor, I wanted to lay a foundation by placing Miss Baret's statement on the elmo.

THE COURT: I don't think so.

MR. DARDEN: No? Okay.

(The following proceedings were held in open court, in the presence of the jury:)

THE COURT: All right. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. Please be seated. All right. Let the record reflect that we have been rejoined by all the members of our jury panel. Ladies and gentlemen, from time to time things occur that make it necessary for me to immediately discuss things with the attorneys. I want you to understand that you should ignore any such actions taken by the Court. You should not interpret that as an indication that the Court has an opinion as to the conduct of the attorneys or as to any of the witnesses who are testifying. Ignore any actions that the Court takes. You are to form your own opinions based upon the evidence and the law as it is presented to you here in court. Mr. Darden, you may continue with your cross-examination.

MR. DARDEN: Thank you, your Honor. May I have People's next in order?

THE CLERK: 500.

MR. DARDEN: Your Honor, I have here a one-page statement. May it be marked People's 500?

THE COURT: People's 500.

(Peo's 500 for id = 1-page document)

MR. DARDEN: Mr. Heidstra, let me show you a statement, a single-page document which has been marked People's 500. For the record, your Honor, I have blackened out the address and phone number of the--

THE COURT: Thank you.

MR. DARDEN: --the person indicated in the statement.

MR. DARDEN: Please.

THE COURT: Mr. Darden.

MR. DARDEN: Thank you, your Honor.

MR. DARDEN: Mr. Heidstra, you have already testified that you know Patricia Baret, correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Correct.

MR. DARDEN: You have discussed with her in the past your observations and perceptions the night of June 12th, correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: Mr. Heidstra, did you tell--strike that. You have told us that you left your house at 10:15?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. DARDEN: Did you tell Miss Baret that you left your house a little after 10:00?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, 10:15.

MR. DARDEN: You never told Miss Baret that you left your house a little after 10:00?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, never.

MR. DARDEN: And you have told us that--well, strike that. Did you tell Miss Baret that the first voice that you heard, the voice that yelled, "Hey, hey, hey," did you tell Miss Baret that that voice seemed to be the voice of a young man?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, a clear young man, sound like a young adult.

MR. DARDEN: And in response to "Hey, hey, hey," you heard another voice; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Very short, yeah.

MR. DARDEN: And that second voice, was that voice loud?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Not loud, not very loud.

MR. DARDEN: But you could hear it?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, over the dogs, the commotion of the dogs.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. Could you determine whether or not the second voice that you heard sounded angry?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I couldn't say that for sure. It was like an argument or something.

MR. DARDEN: Well, didn't you tell Miss Baret that the second voice that you heard sounded very angry?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Not very angry. I said it was an argument, like an argument, fast talking.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. Like everyone, I'm sure you've heard a number of different people speak; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: Older people, correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Sure.

MR. DARDEN: Young people?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Children.

MR. DARDEN: Caucasian people?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Black people, Chinese, you name it.

MR. DARDEN: The second voice that you heard, could you tell whether or not that second voice sounded like the voice of an older man?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Maybe what--what do you mean by "Older man"? Maybe older than the other person maybe, yes, could be.

MR. DARDEN: Well, was it your opinion that the voice of the second man belonged to a man older than the voice of the first man?

MR. HEIDSTRA: It could be an older man, yes.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. And you told Miss Baret that the second voice was the voice of an older man, didn't you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. DARDEN: You did tell her that?

MR. HEIDSTRA: (No audible response.)

MR. DARDEN: Okay. And were you able to determine the ethnicity of the person who you say was the second voice?

MR. COCHRAN: Object to that--the form of that question, your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, no, no.

MR. DARDEN: Isn't it true that you told Patricia Baret that the second voice, which would be the older man, sounded black?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Never said that, no, never. Never said that ever. I couldn't hear that voice.

MR. DARDEN: I think we need to approach for a moment, your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. With the court reporter.

(The following proceedings were held at the bench:)

THE COURT: We are over at the side bar. Mr. Darden.

MR. DARDEN: Your Honor, the next sentence in the statement, and this is in quotes is that--well, it indicates that the witness told Patricia Baret, "I know it was O.J., it had to be him." And that is going to be the next question.

MR. COCHRAN: Object to that. First of all, I object to the foundation. I can tell you he is going to deny that because I spoke to him during the recess, but more importantly than that, without a further foundation, the answer that--there is no testimony he ever heard O.J. talk ever before. He indicates he saw him one other time at his property when he was next door to the Salingers and there was no indication he ever heard him talk or whatever. And while we are up here, you should probably look at the statement all the way through because there is a statement about Mr. Darden. Are you going to elicit that, too?

MR. DARDEN: Yeah.

MR. COCHRAN: Are you going to elicit that? Let him the read the statement.

MR. DARDEN: I was going to put it on the elmo.

(Brief pause.)

THE COURT: It is your contention that he knows it was O.J. on the basis of the voice?

MR. DARDEN: Well, I'm going to ask him. I will lay the foundation, if necessary, but this is his opinion. This is opinion and he has already stated that opinion publicly. I just didn't want to run into a buzz saw.

THE COURT: Yes, you should be wise to stay away from the buzz saw today and everyday. The problem is, the way it is couched, "I know it was O.J. it had to be him" doesn't say "I'm positive" or "I know it is him because I saw him or because I heard him," so I might sustain a 352 objection. You can try to lay a foundation here, but I have a feeling it is speculation.

MR. COCHRAN: 352--while we are up here, save some time. You don't like us coming up here.

THE COURT: I don't like either of you guys today.

MR. COCHRAN: I think that is unfair.

THE COURT: No, don't say anything about it.

MR. COCHRAN: Right. I have to stand up for what I believe.

THE COURT: I understand that.

MR. COCHRAN: You have to understand that I am a man and I feel strongly about racial issues.

THE COURT: Mr. Cochran--

MR. COCHRAN: I'm going to always do that.

THE COURT: I'm going to tell you one more time, I don't want to hear any more about it.

MR. COCHRAN: Okay. I want to tell you how I feel. Judge, while we are up here, can we finally get an offer of proof of where he's going to go, because there is also some other statement attached here to that that I think may ultimately be relevant, and I want to show you one thing to save some time. The statement of this man field, first of all, there is no where in any of these statements anything about a bumper, the color of the chrome bumper, anything. I haven't seen anything about that or about tinted windshields, so there is nothing in any statements that I have now been given. In addition to that, read this part. Want to read this into the record. He asked some questions about making money. Here is what Heidstra supposedly told Mr. Field. "Heidstra stated that he was going to make a lot of money because the People of the District Attorney's office said so. Stated he would make enough money to purchase a Rolls Royce." Now, at the preliminary hearing there was testimony--Patty Jo Fairbanks had indicated to the witness Camacho, "Make a lot of money"--and some of these things you are going to find on redirect--sold stories to Current Affair and to Hard Copy, so they are making money. This guy hasn't. And so I am just asking you, I want to go into that, which becomes very relevant.

THE COURT: Going into Camacho or statements made by Heidstra to Patty Jo Fairbanks?

MR. COCHRAN: Statements from People from the D.A.'s office about him making a lot of money.

MR. DARDEN: I have no objection, because I'm going to go into, as you can see from the other statement, this guy apparently just wants to testify. He don't care who he testifies for. And so I'm going to go into that.

THE COURT: Okay.

MR. DARDEN: I have no objection.

THE COURT: I agree. If somebody mentioned making money from the D.A.'s office, you can go into that. Okay. Thank you.

(The following proceedings were held in open court:)

THE COURT: All right. Thank you, counsel. Proceed.

MR. DARDEN: Thank you, your Honor.

MR. DARDEN: You told us earlier, Mr. Heidstra, that you had on occasion done some work for the Salingers, correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Oh, yes, regularly.

MR. DARDEN: And on the exhibit up here which is Defense 1239, I believe, the Salinger residence is to the right of the photograph?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes, sir.

MR. DARDEN: Directly next door to the Defendant's home on Rockingham; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. DARDEN: And how long have you been working for the Salingers?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Oh, five, six--six years at least.

MR. DARDEN: And how many times a week would you go up to the Salingers home to wash or detail their cars?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Every other week.

MR. DARDEN: So you have been going up there every other week for five years?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Oh, yeah.

MR. DARDEN: Now, had you ever met the Defendant, Mr. Simpson, that is, prior to June 12th, 1994?

MR. HEIDSTRA: You mean Rosa Lopez?

MR. DARDEN: No, the Defendant, Mr. Simpson?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Sorry.

MR. DARDEN: Had you ever met him, that is, prior to June 12th, 1994?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No. I saw him once in the yard, one time in the yard, but never talked.

MR. DARDEN: You would be working out in the yard sometimes; is that right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I work in the garage next to Mr. Simpson's house.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. The garage is directly next to Mr. Simpson's house?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, it is next--

MR. DARDEN: You have to let me finish talking, otherwise she won't get us both down. And even though you only saw Mr. Simpson once, were there other occasions where you heard his voice?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Never, no, no.

MR. DARDEN: You never heard Mr. Simpson's voice prior to June 12th, 1994?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Never, never.

MR. DARDEN: But you watch a lot of television, don't you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Some sports.

MR. DARDEN: You watch the news?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. DARDEN: And have--and you have watched sports over the years; is that right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. DARDEN: What are your favorite sports?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Soccer, what we call football in Europe.

MR. DARDEN: Anything else?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Ice hockey, basketball.

MR. DARDEN: American football?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Boring.

THE COURT: Wait until you see baseball.

MR. HEIDSTRA: You are right, Judge.

MR. DARDEN: Over the years have you watched Hertz commercials?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No.

MR. DARDEN: Have you ever seen any infomercial on television?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Not that I remember. I'm not interested in that.

MR. DARDEN: So your testimony then is that you have never heard the Defendant's voice prior to June 12th, 1994?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I never watch football.

MR. DARDEN: Have you ever heard the Defendant's voice on anything else?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Maybe--maybe I heard once. Maybe a Hertz commercial I might have heard one time or something.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. Well, you do recall that those commercials involving the Defendant for Hertz used to run rather often, correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. DARDEN: They were everywhere?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Two or three times. I don't remember.

MR. DARDEN: And the Defendant would talk in those commercials. Do you remember that?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, I remember.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. And you can recognize the Defendant's voice if you hear it, can't you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, I can recognize him probably. Yeah, probably.

MR. DARDEN: May I proceed, your Honor?

THE COURT: Proceed.

MR. DARDEN: You do recognize that you heard the second voice as the Defendant's voice, didn't you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: That second voice I heard in that alley?

MR. DARDEN: Yes, the voice of the older man?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No.

MR. DARDEN: The very angry voice?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Could not recognize it. There was too much noise with the dogs. How can I recognize the voice? I don't know the man.

MR. DARDEN: Mr. Heidstra, didn't you tell Patricia Baret that the voice that you heard was the voice of the Defendant's?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Never ever said that.

MR. DARDEN: Didn't you tell Patricia Baret, "I know it was O.J. it had to be him"?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, I never said that. Absurd, absurd.

MR. DARDEN: Didn't you tell Miss Baret that exact same thing in July of 1994?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I said to her in July?

MR. DARDEN: Didn't you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I never said that to her, never ever. To nobody I have said that.

MR. DARDEN: Yesterday when you were testifying you told us that you first heard the dog barking at about 10:30 or 10:35; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Exactly, yes.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. And after you said 10:30 or 10:35, Mr. Cochran asked you a series of--

MR. COCHRAN: Your Honor, object. That misstates the evidence.

MR. DARDEN: No, it doesn't.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. DARDEN: And after you first said 10:30 or 10:35, Mr. Cochran asked you a series of questions about what you heard at 10:35; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: What I heard, yes, exactly.

MR. DARDEN: So when you testified yesterday that you first heard the dog barking at 10:30 or 10:35, what you meant to convey to us was that you were given us an approximate time; is that correct?

MR. COCHRAN: Object to the form of that question, your Honor. Misstates what he said yesterday.

THE COURT: Overruled. You can answer the question.

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes, it was about that time, between 10:30 and 10:35.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. You didn't know the exact time that you first heard the dog barking, did you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, not exactly on the minute, no.

MR. DARDEN: You didn't look at your watch when you first heard the dog barking?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No.

MR. DARDEN: By the way, how many watches do you wear?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Just one. That is enough.

MR. DARDEN: And after you heard that dog barking--sometime around 10:30 or 10:35, right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. DARDEN: --you already testified that you don't know whether the dog the been barking earlier. This is just the first time that you heard the dog barking?

MR. COCHRAN: Asked and answered.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. DARDEN: Correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes, yes.

MR. DARDEN: Then you backed up and you walked down the alleyway, right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right, right.

MR. DARDEN: Then you heard the two voices, correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: When you heard these voices, you didn't hear three voices?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Two voices.

MR. DARDEN: You didn't hear the voices of three men?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Not--I heard only two voices.

MR. DARDEN: Just two?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Two voices.

MR. DARDEN: And you continued to walk down the alleyway; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I stopped to listen to the voices for a minute.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. Now, to go back to the time for a moment when you met me on May 29, 1995, that is memorial day, right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. DARDEN: You told my investigators, Mr. Stevens and Mr. Thompson, that you heard the dog barking at 10:30; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: 10:35, 10:30, 10:35.

MR. DARDEN: Didn't you tell them that you heard the dog barking at 10:30?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I don't recall that.

MR. DARDEN: Do you recall telling them 10:30 and not qualifying that in any shape or form?

MR. COCHRAN: Asked and answered, your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. HEIDSTRA: About 10:30, 35. I might have said 10:30, but it was between 10:30 and 10:35.

MR. DARDEN: It could have been 10:25 or 10:30, couldn't it?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, no, no, never said that.

MR. DARDEN: You never said that?

MR. HEIDSTRA: 25, no.

MR. DARDEN: You never said 10:25?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No.

MR. DARDEN: But you never checked your watch?

MR. COCHRAN: Asked and answered, your Honor.

MR. DARDEN: After you left the house, correct?

MR. COCHRAN: Asked and answered.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. DARDEN: You never checked your watch after you left the house, did you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No.

MR. DARDEN: Now, the clock that you looked at, when you noted it was 10:15 before leaving the house, where is that clock located?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Not the clock; my watch.

MR. DARDEN: Looked at your watch?

MR. HEIDSTRA: This watch.

MR. DARDEN: That is a nice watch. Can I just see it for a moment? That is a Puget quartz watch, right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: And when prior to June 12th, 1994, had you set the watch?

MR. HEIDSTRA: It is a battery. I never set it. It goes automatic.

MR. DARDEN: Never set the watch?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, never.

MR. DARDEN: What about daylight savings time, do you--when that occurs do you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Well, that might have happened, yeah, I change it.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. So you do reset the watch sometime?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Well, yeah.

MR. DARDEN: And that watch that you are wearing, that is not a digital watch, is it?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No.

MR. DARDEN: And that watch doesn't have the numbers 1, 2, 3, 4 or 5 around the face of it, does it?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No.

MR. DARDEN: It has some thin lines?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, right, right.

MR. DARDEN: Right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. DARDEN: And so when you tell us that you heard the dog barking at 10:30, that is an approximation, isn't it?

MR. HEIDSTRA: 10:30, 10:35, around that time.

MR. DARDEN: Could it have been 10:29 or 10:34?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, no. It could be just a little before maybe, yes, but I know my walk with the dogs.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. Is that what you are basing this timing on, your walks with the dogs?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Exactly. As a routine I do it for years and I know exactly the time.

MR. DARDEN: Doesn't it only take you ten minutes to walk to that alley with the dogs?

MR. HEIDSTRA: To where?

MR. DARDEN: Ten minutes? Doesn't it usually only take minutes to get to that alley when you walk your dogs?

MR. HEIDSTRA: With my old dog who has arthritis, how could I do that? It is impossible.

MR. DARDEN: You are walking around the block, right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Around the block, yes.

MR. DARDEN: You are not walking to Santa Monica or someplace like that?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No. The dog take me a long time. Your investigator--you saw my dog, didn't you?

MR. DARDEN: Let me ask you this, if I can: Since you work next door to the Defendant's home at Rockingham, you have driven to the Salingers, right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. Right next door to the Defendant's house, right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. DARDEN: You can drive from your house to the Defendant's house in four minutes?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Not during the week.

MR. DARDEN: But how about on a Sunday night?

MR. COCHRAN: Object to the form of that question, your Honor. No showing--no foundation.

THE COURT: Rephrase the question.

MR. DARDEN: Well, the traffic is fairly heavy during the week?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Sure.

MR. DARDEN: But that night, that Sunday night, the traffic was very light, wasn't it?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. DARDEN: And the night was very quiet?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. DARDEN: Not much traffic on the street at all, right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, un-unh.

MR. DARDEN: And you saw no other cars other than that--well, you saw two cars and this white--

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. DARDEN: --vehicle?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. DARDEN: Would you agree that someone leaving that intersection at Dorothy and Bundy could drive to 360 Rockingham in four minutes or less?

MR. COCHRAN: Object to the form of that question, your Honor. Calls for speculation and foundation.

THE COURT: Overruled. Overruled.

MR. HEIDSTRA: If he is speeding, yes, maybe he could do that, yeah.

MR. DARDEN: And the white vehicle that you saw accelerated rapidly as it turned the corner; is that correct?

MR. COCHRAN: Your Honor, object to the form of that question. It misstates the testimony is.

THE COURT: Sustained. Rephrase the question.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. How would you describe the way the white vehicle took off when it made that right turn at Dorothy and Bundy?

MR. HEIDSTRA: It stopped quickly and then it accelerated quick into Bundy.

MR. DARDEN: Do you usually watch the same news station every night?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Mostly channel 7, I guess.

MR. DARDEN: And who was doing the news that night June 12th on channel 7?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I don't remember that. I don't remember by name the people.

MR. DARDEN: Is that the channel that you watched, that is, channel 7?

MR. HEIDSTRA: It could have been 7, yeah. It should have been 7.

MR. DARDEN: Is that the channel that you watched the night of June 12th?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I'm quite sure it was.

MR. DARDEN: Had you watched the basketball game earlier that day?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I don't remember--there was a basketball game? I don't remember that.

MR. DARDEN: You do like basketball, though?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I love it.

MR. DARDEN: You don't recall that the Houston Rockets were playing the championship series that day?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Don't recall. I like it, but I don't recall that at all. I must have watched it.

MR. DARDEN: And you told us that when you got home they were just announcing the news; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Correct.

MR. DARDEN: They were giving the teaser, sort of letting you know what was coming up on the news that night?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right, right.

MR. DARDEN: Doesn't it sometimes occur, that is that teaser, doesn't it sometimes occur before eleven o'clock?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I don't think--no. They were just announcing the--they were--the eleven o'clock news.

MR. DARDEN: You just told us it was going to be coming up on the eleven o'clock news?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, no, no.

MR. COCHRAN: Object to the form of that question, your Honor. Argumentative.

THE COURT: Overruled. Actually, rephrase the question.

MR. DARDEN: I asked you a moment ago if they were giving the teaser sort of to let you know what was coming up on the news that night.

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, it was not like that.

MR. DARDEN: And your response to that question was right, right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Then I misunderstood you because it was starting. They announced the news. That is my testimony.

MR. DARDEN: So that the record is clear, didn't you just testify a moment ago that the--that you saw the teaser on TV when you came into the house?

MR. COCHRAN: Asked and answered, your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. HEIDSTRA: I misunderstood. The news was just starting. It was just starting. They announce the news. It was not that the news was coming. It was already there.

MR. DARDEN: And you don't know who the anchors were that night?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, no, I don't. I don't remember. I don't know the names.

MR. DARDEN: Now, at some point you realized that Nicole Brown had been killed, murdered over at the condo, correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Sure.

MR. DARDEN: Did you over there and watch and see what the police were doing over there?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No. I heard it in the morning when I was shaving myself, double murders on Bundy, and the helicopters were all over Brentwood.

MR. DARDEN: Did you see police cars when you went outside?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No. I heard only the helicopters as it was going on--was going on, and then I turned the TV on.

MR. DARDEN: And you knew that you had been over at Bundy at--

MR. HEIDSTRA: Oh, yes. When I turned the TV on and I saw the news and the gate, I was in shock. I said, "That's what happened last night."

MR. DARDEN: Okay. And you realized then that you had heard someone yelling "Hey, hey, hey," and the very angry voice of an older black man?

MR. COCHRAN: I object to the form of that question, your Honor.

THE COURT: Sustained. Rephrase the question.

MR. DARDEN: Well, you realized that you heard someone yelling "Hey, hey, hey," and a second voice, correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. DARDEN: And you realized then I take it that you heard these voices coming from 875 south Bundy, right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. DARDEN: And you knew that you had heard this gate slam at 875 south Bundy, right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. DARDEN: You knew Nicole Brown lived there, right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I have seen her before there.

MR. DARDEN: You knew she was murdered, right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. DARDEN: You knew the police were investigating the murder?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. DARDEN: I take it that you went over and you talked to the police?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I didn't talk to the police there, no.

MR. DARDEN: You didn't go over to the police officers and tell them what you heard?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No.

MR. DARDEN: You didn't telephone the police station?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No. Came to that Patty, that secretary.

MR. DARDEN: Patricia Baret?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Patricia, sorry.

MR. DARDEN: The first person you told anything about this was Patricia Baret?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Her boss, the doctor, and he give it to her--told her. Because she was a friend of Goldman she told me so she called the detectives up that she had somebody who knows who had information so they--

MR. DARDEN: Do you watch any news stations other than channel 7?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes. Sometimes other ones, too.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. You watch channel 9?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Too much, no.

MR. DARDEN: 13, 11?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Mostly 2, 4 and 7 and CNN.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. Is it possible that the station you watched that night, that Sunday night, was not channel 7?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, I'm quite sure it was 7.

MR. DARDEN: When you say you are quite sure, you are positive?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Not positive, but it was very--quite sure that is always I watch it at night, 7.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. Well, when you say that you are quite sure and not positive, does that mean then that you have some question in your own mind as to which station it was that you watched.

MR. COCHRAN: Object to the form of that question, your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, always it is channel 7 for me to watch it.

MR. DARDEN: Well, if you always watch channel 7 news--

MR. HEIDSTRA: Most of the time, yes.

MR. DARDEN: If you usually watch channel 7 news--

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. DARDEN: --you must know who the anchors are on the weekend, right?

MR. COCHRAN: I object to that, argumentative.

THE COURT: We have asked the question already.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. Thank you, your Honor.

MR. DARDEN: Mr. Heidstra, you expected to be called by the Prosecution in this case, didn't you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, I was--I thought so, maybe they would call me.

MR. DARDEN: When I say "Called"--

MR. HEIDSTRA: Subpoenaed.

MR. DARDEN: --you expected to be called to testify in this trial as a Prosecution witness; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Sure.

MR. DARDEN: And when you realized that you were not going to be called to testify you were surprised; is that right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, I was very surprised about it because they called me a crucial witness.

MR. DARDEN: Somebody called you a crucial witness?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: A critical witness?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Crucial witness.

MR. DARDEN: Mr. Bailey called you a critical witness, didn't he?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I don't recall that at all.

MR. DARDEN: Pardon me?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I don't recall that.

MR. DARDEN: Well, don't you have in your possession a letter that Mr. Bailey gave you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, yeah, I got a letter.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. It is an eight-and-a-half-by-ten letter?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, right, right. It is in a plastic--

MR. DARDEN: It is a letter from Mr. Bailey to you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah. It said, "Robert."

MR. DARDEN: Do you have that letter here with you today?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No.

MR. DARDEN: Did you have that letter laminated, Mr. Heidstra?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, they gave it to me like that.

MR. DARDEN: They gave you a laminated letter?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. DARDEN: Do you know why?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No idea.

MR. DARDEN: In any event, you expected that you could make some money in this case, as a result of this case, if you were called to testify by the Prosecution; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: And in fact didn't you tell Mr. Field that someone in the D.A.'s office told you you could make money?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Nobody--D.A.? Nobody told me that.

MR. DARDEN: No one in the D.A.'s office ever told you you could make money if you testified in this case?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No. I only talked to Mr. Payne and he never told me that.

MR. DARDEN: Didn't you tell Mr. Field that someone in the D.A.'s office told you you can make money?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I never told Mr. Field that at all.

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

MR. DARDEN: Isn't it true, Mr. Heidstra, that after you realized that you wouldn't be called by the Prosecution that you decided that you would do whatever you could to make sure you were called by the Defense in this case?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Not at all. Not at all.

MR. DARDEN: Well, after I visited you on May 29th, 1995--

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: --you telephoned the Defense, didn't you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Sure, yes.

MR. DARDEN: And you told the Defense that I had been there?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Sure.

MR. DARDEN: And you told the Defense you didn't like me very much?

MR. HEIDSTRA: You were not very pleasant with me.

MR. DARDEN: Can I use that word, your Honor?

THE COURT: Not pleasant?

MS. CLARK: No, the word.

MR. DARDEN: The other word.

THE COURT: Yes, you may.

MR. DARDEN: You told the Defense that you weren't impressed with me?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Not impressed. You were not very pleasant, very cool with me.

MR. DARDEN: You told the Defense that I was an asshole?

MR. COCHRAN: Just a moment. I misstate--counsel misstated. May I see counsel?

THE COURT: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: Counsel.

THE COURT: Hold on. Why don't you confer with Mr. Cochran for a moment.

(Discussion held off the record between Deputy District Attorney and Defense counsel.)

MR. DARDEN: I'm sorry. Mr. Cochran is correct. Thank you. I apologize.

MR. COCHRAN: Your witness.

MR. DARDEN: No, your witness.

THE COURT: Mr. Darden.

MR. DARDEN: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: Did you tell Patricia Baret that you thought I was an asshole?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Never, never said that at all.

MR. DARDEN: Did you tell Patricia Baret that you were going to come here and testify?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Do you want me to answer?

MR. DARDEN: As a witness subpoenaed by the Defense?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: And you were going to help the Defendant by your testimony?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Give my testimony. I didn't say how, but I said just give the truth what I know.

MR. DARDEN: You told Miss Baret that you expected the Defendant to show you his appreciation, didn't you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Not at all. I was on their side, so I guess maybe they appreciate that I was on their side.

MR. DARDEN: I'm sorry, could you repeat that answer?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I will believe that they appreciated that I was on their side, that I testified for them.

MR. DARDEN: Didn't you tell Miss Baret, that he, O.J. Simpson, was going to kiss you when he gets out of prison?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I don't know where she gets this from. This is absurd, absurd.

MR. DARDEN: You told Miss Baret that you are going to be his witness, the Defendant's witness, didn't you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Oh, yeah. I was on the side--subpoenaed by the Defense.

MR. DARDEN: And you told Miss Baret that it is because of you that the Defendant is going to go free, didn't you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: How do I know that? How could I know that?

MR. DARDEN: And you told Miss Baret, "I'm going to make money when all of this is finished"?

MR. HEIDSTRA: It is a joke. He said maybe I make that money.

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

MR. DARDEN: Mr. Heidstra, regardless of whether you heard the dog bark at 10:35, 10:30 or 10:40, there is still sufficient time for someone to drive from 875 Bundy--

MR. COCHRAN: I object to the form of this question. Object to the form of this question.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. DARDEN: If someone left 875 south Bundy at 10:35--

MR. COCHRAN: Object to the form of the question.

MR. DARDEN: --would they have enough time to drive to 360 north Rockingham and arrive by 10:52?

MR. COCHRAN: Your Honor, I object to the form of the question. Calls for speculation.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. COCHRAN: And no facts in evidence.

THE COURT: Overruled. He is familiar with the two locations.

MR. DARDEN: Yes?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes. You could do it, yes, sure.

MR. DARDEN: You could arrive there by 10:45, correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right, yes.

MR. DARDEN: May I have one moment, your Honor? I'm almost done.

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

MR. DARDEN: Now, when you first came forward and spoke to the police, did you consider yourself then and at that time a Prosecution witness?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Oh, sure, sure.

MR. DARDEN: And after you realized that you weren't going to be testifying did you--did you give others more information? Did you give somebody else some more information?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, no, no, unless--until the Defense came.

MR. DARDEN: Now, have you ever visited Mr. Cochran's office?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes, recently one time.

MR. DARDEN: When was that?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Well, that has been a week ago or something.

MR. DARDEN: What day of the week was that?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Oh, I don't even remember any more.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. Was that the first time?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. DARDEN: Was that the first time you had ever met Mr. Cochran?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. DARDEN: Now, you had already told us that you met Mr. McKenna three times?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Three or four times.

MR. DARDEN: Three or four time?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, yeah.

MR. DARDEN: And you met Mr. Bailey once?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Once.

MR. DARDEN: And you met Mr. Cochran once?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Once, yes.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. Have you met any of the other lawyers in Mr. Cochran's office?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Mr. Douglas.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. Were you interviewed by Mr. Douglas?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, we just shaked hands and he talked a little French with me.

MR. DARDEN: He talked a little what?

MR. HEIDSTRA: French.

MR. DARDEN: Mr. Douglas speaks French?

MR. HEIDSTRA: A little bit, bonjour.

MR. DARDEN: Not enough to order from a menu, right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: He tried it. He tried it.

MR. DARDEN: And when you spoke to Mr. McKenna, did he take notes?

MR. HEIDSTRA: In the office you mean?

MR. DARDEN: Well, when you met him out on the street did he take notes?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, he took a few notes, yes.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. And did you read those notes after Mr. McKenna took them?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, no, no, no.

MR. DARDEN: Did Mr. McKenna record your statement?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I never saw that, no. I don't think so.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. Each time that you saw Mr. McKenna did he take notes?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, no, no.

MR. DARDEN: Is it fair to say that after we failed to call you to testify in our case that you then decided that you would go over to the Defense?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, they came to me. I never decided myself.

MR. DARDEN: Have you ever had any fights or arguments with Patricia Baret?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No. Only one thing I don't like from her is that when I come in the office she speaks always French to me in front of other people who speak English, and I think it is very rude and I didn't like that at all.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. You are French and she speaks French to you and you don't like that?

MR. HEIDSTRA: In front of customers and people and I don't like that at all. It is pretty rude.

MR. DARDEN: And when you spoke to Mr. Thompson and Mr. Stevens, my investigators and myself, on May 29th, you told us that the vehicle you saw was a white Bronco or a Blazer; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I didn't say Bronco. It looks like a wagon, Blazer like car, like I said in the testimony.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. And Mr. Field, the man whose Mercedes you detail--

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, right.

MR. DARDEN: --you detail his car on occasion?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. DARDEN: He lives in Beverly Hills?

MR. HEIDSTRA: In Malibu and Westwood he has a place.

MR. DARDEN: He has two homes?

MR. HEIDSTRA: He was a condo in Westwood.

MR. DARDEN: And you have spoken to him about your observations that night; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah. A long time ago probably.

MR. DARDEN: And didn't you tell Mr. Field that the vehicle that you saw that night was a white Bronco?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I said a white car, white Blazer. I never said that. I can't recall this at all. If he interpreted that it was a Bronco, that is his.

MR. DARDEN: I asked you earlier if you had been interviewed in the media and you told me that you had; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Pardon?

MR. DARDEN: You have been interviewed for television?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, earlier after the murders.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. Were you interviewed this past week?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No.

MR. DARDEN: Have you been interviewed by reporters from channel 2?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No. Well, a long time ago.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. Who was that?

MR. HEIDSTRA: That was just after Mr. Cochran mentioned my name in the opening statement of the trial.

MR. DARDEN: Have you been interviewed by newspaper reporters?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, one, Newsweek.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. And you have actually had your photograph in life magazine?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah. That was a surprise for me.

MR. DARDEN: A photographer came by from life magazine and took your picture?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I never saw him. He took a picture of me and the dogs, walking the dogs with Mr. McKenna and we were going around the block for the timing.

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

MR. DARDEN: Thank you, your Honor. That is all I have right now.

MR. COCHRAN: Thank you, your Honor. May I approach, your Honor?

THE COURT: You may.

(Brief pause.)

REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. COCHRAN

MR. COCHRAN: While you are down, with the Court's permission, thank you very much, in one of Mr. Darden's questions, sir, he asked you about this white vehicle that you described?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. COCHRAN: And I'm going to go back and ask you what you told the police on June 21st regarding this vehicle. Do you remember talking to Payne at that time?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, right.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And at that time Mr. Darden asked you a question, was that vehicle, the white vehicle--which was the third in the vehicles you saw?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. COCHRAN: --was that vehicle going eastbound on Dorothy?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Eastbound, yeah,--it came to Bundy east, yeah. It came here, (Indicating), this side, so it went east.

MR. COCHRAN: It was going eastbound on Dorothy, so when it got to Bundy--

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. COCHRAN: --in which direction did it turn?

MR. HEIDSTRA: It went south, made a right turn.

MR. COCHRAN: It made a right turn on Bundy; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right here, (Indicating).

MR. COCHRAN: All right. So if we were to look at the diagram on plaintiff's 26, you are going about it going eastbound?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Stopped.

MR. COCHRAN: Turning right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. COCHRAN: Is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. COCHRAN: And sir, that is direction away from Mr. O.J. Simpson's home?

MR. HEIDSTRA: It is away.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. You were going to go to O.J. Simpson's home from that location, you wouldn't go down to Wilshire, would you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I would go north, I guess.

MR. COCHRAN: You would go northbound Sunset; isn't that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. COCHRAN: Is that what you saw?

MR. HEIDSTRA: It went south; that is correct.

MR. COCHRAN: That is what you told the police?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: You may resume your seat, sir.

MR. HEIDSTRA: (Witness complies.)

MR. COCHRAN: Now, sir, Mr. Darden asked you a number of questions, and one of the questions he asked you was about a letter or something that you had received from Mr. Bailey. Do you recall that?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah. Mr. McKenna gave it to me.

MR. COCHRAN: And I'm going to mark this as Defendant's next in order, your Honor, show it to the Prosecutor and then I would like to mark it as our next in order.

THE COURT: 1240.

MR. COCHRAN: Thank you, your Honor.

(Deft's 1240 for id = letter)

MR. COCHRAN: I am placing 1240 on this, your Honor, and I'm going to ask the witness a couple of questions and then I would like to place it on the elmo, if I might.

MR. COCHRAN: I want to ask you whether or not this appears to be a copy of the letter that Mr. Bailey gave you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: Says, "Dear Robert"?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: Signed by Mr. Bailey?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: Object, your Honor, as hearsay.

THE COURT: 356. Proceed.

MR. COCHRAN: Thank you, your Honor. Place it on the elmo, please.

(Brief pause.)

MR. COCHRAN: Now, can you look at that monitor there?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. COCHRAN: This is a letter--after you were subpoenaed Mr. McKenna gave you this letter; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. COCHRAN: Do you recall that the letter indicated as follows: "Dear Robert"--that is your name, right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: That is my name still.

MR. COCHRAN: Robert if you want to speak French.

MR. HEIDSTRA: Tres bien.

MR. COCHRAN: "We would like to thank you very kindly for taking the time to assist you in enabling you to present your testimony in a manner which will afford our jury the best opportunity to comprehend and understand your testimony very clearly." Is that what the later indicated?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Exactly.

MR. COCHRAN: Second paragraph: "In order to prevent any claim or concern that the testimony of one witness has been influenced by the recollections of another witness, we are requesting that you avoid contact with other witnesses who have information about occurrences in the vicinity of Dorothy and south Bundy between 10:00 and eleven o'clock P.M. on June 12th, 1994."

MR. HEIDSTRA: Correct.

MR. COCHRAN: Said that?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: "Indeed it would be best, if it is convenient in your own particular circumstances, to discuss your recollections of these events with no one but the lawyers and investigators for both sides."

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. COCHRAN: Your letter said that?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Exactly.

MR. COCHRAN: "We do not wish to be presumptuous or rude in any way; however, your testimony is so critical to Mr. Simpson's Defense we wish to take every precaution to protect it from any external influences." That is what it indicated?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Exactly that is it.

MR. COCHRAN: "We appreciate your understanding of these circumstances"; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. COCHRAN: That letter then was signed by F. Lee Bailey, right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. COCHRAN: Now, that is a letter that you got as a witness in this case; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Exactly, yes.

MR. COCHRAN: Did you try and avoid discussing your testimony?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Oh, sure.

MR. COCHRAN: With other people who had been in and around that area?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. COCHRAN: Now, you have been asked a number of questions by Mr. Darden today and you were asked some questions about a lady by the name of Patricia Baret. Let's take her first. Is Patricia Baret a French lady?

MR. HEIDSTRA: She speaks fluent French.

MR. COCHRAN: She speaks French?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. COCHRAN: When you are around her and when you talk to her is it your testimony that she speaks French only?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah. I don't like it.

MR. COCHRAN: You don't like that, so that when others are around when she is talking to you, unless they speak French, they don't know what you are talking about, right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I think that is rude. I don't like that at all.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Now, with regard to Miss Baret, was she a friend of Ron Goldman's?

MR. HEIDSTRA: She claims that co me.

MR. COCHRAN: She claims she is a friend of Ron Goldman's?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. COCHRAN: And with regard to her, since this case happened, on June 12th, June 13th, 1994, has this lady sold her story and appeared on--

MR. DARDEN: Objection, your Honor.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. COCHRAN: It goes to bias. May I be heard on this? May I be heard on this?

THE COURT: Side bar.

(The following proceedings were held at the bench:)

THE COURT: All right. Over at the side bar. Mr. Cochran.

MR. COCHRAN: The information I have, your Honor, and I don't have that tape yet, but I expect to get it, this lady heard on Hard Copy or Current Affair and sold her story. She was the one who was talking about making money, not him. He has never sold any story, and I don't have the tape yet, but that is the information that I have. They came and told me during the break this is the circumstances, so I think it goes to her bias, making up these statements. She is a friend of Goldmans. If she sold her story and she knows that, I think it is totally relevant, also to bias or interest.

THE COURT: Mr. Darden.

MR. DARDEN: Well, I think that if he knows that, he only knows from it hearsay, and I think he should just call her and ask her.

MR. COCHRAN: He is right now doing that, but I want to ask him because he is here now and I think that is an appropriate question asked in good faith.

MR. DARDEN: Not only that, I don't think he is asking him--I'm sure he is asking him in good faith, but technically not. He doesn't even have the proof of that. But Patricia Baret is available to testify.

THE COURT: All right. Mr. Cochran, you can require into any knowledge he might have as to why she might be biased or say these things, for example, the fact that she was acquainted with Ron Goldman. Obviously that is something that you can inquire into. You can ask are you familiar with or do you have knowledge of any statements that she has given to any TV interviewer, same kind of questions that Mr. Darden asked. Have you seen any interviews on any shows like x, y, or z, and let's see what he says.

MR. COCHRAN: Okay.

MR. DARDEN: Can we not say "Like." That is a little leading. Can he ask him what shows?

MR. COCHRAN: I know how to frame the question. I like your question and I will ask it the way he asked it.

THE COURT: Non-leading, since it is direct.

MR. COCHRAN: Right.

MS. CLARK: Your Honor, with respect to--since we are at side bar, I want to let the Court know that with respect to the discovery issue on Tom Lang, which I was informed of when I came in, Mr. Hodgman needs to address you with respect to that issue ex parte and I will indicate to counsel we have no tape.

MR. COCHRAN: We have no tape?

MS. CLARK: There is no tape.

MR. COCHRAN: They claim that you have a tape.

MS. CLARK: I know. They are wrong. I will tell you about that.

MR. COCHRAN: Maybe we can talk.

THE COURT: Take that up at 1:30.

MS. CLARK: Okay.

MR. COCHRAN: Mr. Bailey's issue and he will be back.

MS. CLARK: All right.

(The following proceedings were held in open court:)

MR. COCHRAN: May I proceed, your Honor?

THE COURT: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: Now, with regard to Patricia Baret, are you aware of whether or not she has, since June 12th, 1994, appeared on some television programs?

MR. HEIDSTRA: She told me that she would be on one of them.

MR. DARDEN: Objection, hearsay, your Honor.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. COCHRAN: You had a conversation with her?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. COCHRAN: You can answer that yes or no. About appearing on television shows?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes, yes, yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And have you had occasion to discuss with her her desire to be on television shows?

MR. DARDEN: Objection. Calls for hearsay, your Honor.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. COCHRAN: Well, let me ask you this: Did she ever tell you whether or not she was going to seek some money?

MR. DARDEN: Objection, your Honor.

THE COURT: Sustained. Hearsay.

MR. COCHRAN: Thank you, your Honor.

MR. COCHRAN: Do you know whether or not Patricia Baret has appeared on either Hard Copy--

MR. DARDEN: Objection, leading.

MR. COCHRAN: Asking the question.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. COCHRAN: Thank you.

MR. COCHRAN: Do you know Patricia Baret has appeared on either Hard Copy or Current Affair since the time of these murders on June 12th, 1994?

MR. HEIDSTRA: She told me she would.

MR. DARDEN: Objection, hearsay, your Honor.

THE COURT: The answer is stricken. The jury is to disregard. Do you have personal knowledge? Did you see the program or anything like that?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I never saw the program.

MR. COCHRAN: You never saw the program?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. When did you talk to her about appearing on television? Just tell us the approximate time.

MR. DARDEN: Objection. This is hearsay, your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. HEIDSTRA: What time you mean?

MR. COCHRAN: When was it approximately when you talked about appearing on television?

MR. DARDEN: Assumes a fact not in evidence, your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. HEIDSTRA: That is a while ago.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Do you have an idea when it was?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No. A few months ago, sir.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Now, with regard to Miss Baret, you had indicated on direct examination, I believe yesterday, that you had told, I guess it was her employer, that you had been in and around the Bundy location on June 12th in the evening hours; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Exactly, yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And then what was that person's name?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Dr. Paul.

MR. COCHRAN: Dr. Paul?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Paul, yeah.

MR. COCHRAN: And then Miss Baret works for Dr. Paul?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. COCHRAN: And do you work for Dr. Paul also?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes. Every other week I do his car.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Then you became aware that Miss Baret was supposedly a friend of Mr. Goldman's; is that right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. COCHRAN: And then after that you were put in touch with these detectives; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Exactly.

MR. COCHRAN: And the detective that you first spoke to was whom?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Mr. Payne, plus another one. I don't recall his name. A tall man with--

MR. COCHRAN: You described that for us yesterday. And I want to ask you some questions about what you said at the time to Detective Payne. First of all, this conversation was--was it back on or about June 21st of 1994?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. COCHRAN: And do you recall where the interview took place?

MR. HEIDSTRA: In the sub-garage of my apartment.

MR. COCHRAN: That was the one that was down in the sub-garage; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, right.

MR. COCHRAN: And when you talked to Detective Payne you tried to be as accurate as you possibly could; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Sure, sure.

MR. COCHRAN: And this statement that you gave him was within nine days of June 12th, 1994; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, something like that.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And at that time you talked as clearly as you could to him; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Exactly, yes.

MR. COCHRAN: Okay. Your Honor I would like at this point to mark--this is Defendant's next in order. This statement of Mr. Heidstra to Detective Payne.

THE COURT: 1241--1241.

MR. COCHRAN: 12--

THE COURT: 41.

MR. COCHRAN: 1241.

(Deft's 1241 for id = Heidstra statement)

MR. COCHRAN: And I want to ask the witness to look at and I would like to place it on the elmo, if I could. May I approach?

THE COURT: You may.

(Discussion held off the record between Deputy District Attorney and Defense counsel.)

MR. DARDEN: Your Honor, I have no objection. Could we get a clean copy?

THE COURT: Clean copy.

MR. COCHRAN: I will show him this one and we will try to get a clean copy. Maybe you have a clean copy.

MR. DARDEN: Can we show him a clean copy?

THE COURT: That is appropriate. Unmarked.

MR. COCHRAN: If we have one that doesn't have the--I think all our copies have these markings and the writing.

(Discussion held off the record between Deputy District Attorney and Defense counsel.)

THE COURT: Mr. Darden, Miss Clark, do you have a clean copy?

MR. COCHRAN: It is your statement 0729.

(Discussion held off the record between Deputy District Attorney and Defense counsel.)

THE COURT: Do you need an additional photocopy made?

MR. DARDEN: No, I don't think so, your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. (Brief pause.)

(Discussion held off the record between Deputy District Attorney and Defense counsel.)

MR. COCHRAN: I am asking him to take the address and phone number off.

(Brief pause.)

(Discussion held off the record between Deputy District Attorney and Defense counsel.)

MR. COCHRAN: May I approach, your Honor, with a clean copy of 1241?

THE COURT: You may.

MR. COCHRAN: I wanted to just show it--actually we are going to have to black it out a little better, but I will approach. Mr. Heidstra, I want you just to look with me at this two-page statement. It purports to be a statement of an interview conducted by detective--

MR. HEIDSTRA: Payne.

MR. COCHRAN: --Payne and Parker with you. Does this look like approximately what you said to him, that: "Mr. Heidstra stated that he walks his two dogs on a nightly basis at approximately 2200 hours or ten o'clock"?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. COCHRAN: "His route of travel always consists of the same streets, although the direction he takes varies"?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Exactly.

MR. COCHRAN: "On the night in question, Sunday evening," they have the wrong date in here, "June 14, 1994, he left his apartment with the dogs at about 2215 hours"?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. COCHRAN: Did you indicate that?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes, sure.

MR. COCHRAN: Your Honor, I will proceed this way rather than the elmo because the addresses are still there.

THE COURT: All right.

MR. COCHRAN: May I proceed?

THE COURT: You may.

MR. COCHRAN: Thank you.

MR. COCHRAN: I want you to tell me if what I'm reading to you is accurate of what you told the police officers twelve days after the events of June 12th. Did you tell them at that time that you: "Walked east on Dorothy to Westgate, then north on Westgate to Gorham"?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. COCHRAN: "Turned left on Gorham and walked west to Bundy Drive"?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Exactly.

MR. COCHRAN: That you: "Turned left on Bundy Drive and began walking south"? Did you say that?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I was not exactly on Bundy. I reached Bundy.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. At Gorham?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Still Gorham.

MR. COCHRAN: That part of the statement is wrong?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, I would say, because I was not on Bundy yet. It come together. It is very hard to see.

MR. COCHRAN: "He indicated that Bundy Drive has a large curve in the roadway at that location and because of that curve he was unable to see the front of the residence at 875 south Bundy Drive"; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right exactly.

MR. COCHRAN: From that location at what we call yesterday the fork in the rode up here you couldn't see the front?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, no.

MR. COCHRAN: That is because of this curve?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. COCHRAN: That is depicted here?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. COCHRAN: On People's 26; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. COCHRAN: Okay. Did you go on to say to them that you: "Walked the same route everyday and you are familiar with the dogs in the various residences as well as the exterior of the various residences themselves"?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes, I do, so many times walking.

MR. COCHRAN: Is that accurate?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. COCHRAN: Did you tell them that?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. COCHRAN: "Shortly after turning south on Bundy Drive"--that part is wrong. You turned in the alley, right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah. I didn't go on Bundy at all.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. "Mr. Heidstra heard the sound of the Akita dog owned by Nicole Brown Simpson began to bark furiously"; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. COCHRAN: "The bark was non-stop and the dog appeared agitated." Is that accurate as to what you told them?

MR. HEIDSTRA: That is accurate, yes.

MR. COCHRAN: Okay. You went on to tell the detective that you: "Were familiar with the sound of the bark of the Akita as it barks frequently when you pass with your two dogs"?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right, right, right.

MR. COCHRAN: You told them that, right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, I told them that.

MR. COCHRAN: "And believing that the dog might be possibly loose and a danger to him and his dogs, you then changed your route of travel and then you turned in an adjacent alley which parallels Bundy Drive and which would take him back to Dorothy Street"?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Exactly.

MR. COCHRAN: Is that correct, sir?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, right.

MR. COCHRAN: Okay. Then you describe that: "As you reached the alley you heard this male voice loudly cry `hey, hey, hey,' then the sound of a large metal gate closing," right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right, exactly.

MR. COCHRAN: Now, in the statement when you talked to the police, you didn't talk or say anything at that time about the age of the person who says "Hey, hey, hey," did you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, no, no.

MR. COCHRAN: Just a voice that you heard; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Exactly, yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And by hearing a voice I presume you could hear and determine or discern the difference in the voice of a child and an adult, could you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right, yes.

MR. COCHRAN: But would you agree that it would be difficult to determine the voice of a young adult from an old adult?

MR. DARDEN: Objection. That is leading, your Honor.

THE COURT: Sustained. Rephrase the question.

MR. COCHRAN: Okay. Certainly, your Honor.

MR. COCHRAN: Are you able to discern always the difference in ages of voices when you can't see the people?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No. That is hard to do that.

MR. COCHRAN: Now, let me ask--let me ask you the question of race. Are you able to hear a voice and then determine the race of the person?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Absurd, absurd.

MR. COCHRAN: What?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Absurd. I never--how could I?

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Let's continue on. So you heard this hey, hey, hey, and then you heard what you believe was a large metal gate closing; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, one slam.

MR. COCHRAN: There was one slam?

MR. HEIDSTRA: That's it.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. You went on to tell these police officers, Payne and Parker, that the--"You heard the sounds of two men arguing"; is that right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: That's right, yes.

MR. COCHRAN: "But you were unable to discern what they were saying specifically"; isn't that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And you never told Detective Payne anything about one voice being an older man than anyone else, did you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, no, I never said that.

MR. COCHRAN: You never told Detective Payne about one voice being deeper than the other voice, did you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, no, just two voices I heard.

MR. COCHRAN: Two voices. And as you told us here in court, that the dog, which you believe it was the Akita whom you couldn't see, was barking?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. COCHRAN: And the little black dog adjacent to the house?

MR. DARDEN: This is leading, your Honor.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. COCHRAN: All right.

MR. COCHRAN: Let me ask you this: Was your ability to hear in any way--the voices of these persons that you heard--in any way affected by any other circumstances?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Did you hear--

THE COURT: Excuse me. Mr. Cochran, do you need to be there because you are blocking the view of the witness?

MR. COCHRAN: Thank you, your Honor.

MR. DARDEN: Well, is he going to continue?

THE COURT: He is going with the statement at this point.

MR. COCHRAN: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: The two dogs that were barking, were they barking at the same time as you heard the voice of these two men?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes, a loud barking.

MR. DARDEN: Leading, your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. COCHRAN: Did the voices--did the dogs barking in any way affect your ability to hear?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Oh, yes. I could hear nothing, almost nothing, just the two voices very fast, very quick.

MR. COCHRAN: And have you ever at any time told--

THE COURT: Excuse me. I'm sorry, counsel. Would you have the witness pull the microphone--

MR. HEIDSTRA: Sorry.

MR. COCHRAN: Thank you.

MR. COCHRAN: Have you ever at any time told anyone that you heard the voice of a black man?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Never, never said that.

MR. COCHRAN: Now, you went on to tell them, did you not, that: "All the while the Akita continued to bark nonstop during this period of time," right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Nonstop.

MR. DARDEN: Objection. He is skipping some lines.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. COCHRAN: "All the way the Akita continued to dark nonstop and in fact continued to bark until about eleven o'clock"?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. COCHRAN: Just like you told us here in court, right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Sure, sure.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. You went on to tell them that: "As Mr. Heidstra reached Dorothy Street he looked west and observed a large white vehicle." You were looking back toward Bundy; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Exactly.

MR. COCHRAN: When we talk about looking west on this diagram, you described that you are on Dorothy and you are looking back?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Down, yeah, west.

MR. COCHRAN: Toward where Bundy is; is that right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: You told the officers at that time you saw a large vehicle, large white vehicle, right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, like a wagon or a Jeep or that car.

MR. COCHRAN: You said it was shaped similar to a Chevrolet Blazer that was parked in your carport?

MR. HEIDSTRA: They pointed at the Blazer and said, "Is that the size of the car?" And I said, "Yeah, it looks like the size of the car."

MR. COCHRAN: The interview was in the sub-part of your garage; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right, right, right.

MR. COCHRAN: You went on to tell them that: "This vehicle went south on Bundy Drive and drove from the location at a high rate of speed," right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Sure.

MR. COCHRAN: You have always indicated that vehicle turned and went south on Bundy toward Wilshire?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Definitely. Definitely.

MR. COCHRAN: Now, when you talked to Detective Payne and Parker, at that time were you telling them the truth?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Sure. Telling them the truth.

MR. COCHRAN: And were you trying to be a witness for either the Prosecution or the Defense at that point?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Not at all. Just giving the information.

MR. COCHRAN: Were you trying to make any money at that time off this?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Never did.

MR. COCHRAN: Now, have you had opportunities to sell your story to various tabloids?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Of course.

MR. COCHRAN: Prior to now?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Sure. I never did.

MR. COCHRAN: Have you had an opportunity to sell your story to TV programs and do that?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah. I never did.

MR. COCHRAN: So the fact that you might not have the newest car in the world, you have not succumbed to selling your story to make some money, have you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Absolutely not.

MR. COCHRAN: And you work hard everyday, don't you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: You bet.

MR. COCHRAN: That is honest work?

MR. HEIDSTRA: It is honest work, hard work.

MR. COCHRAN: As you go about you do the best you can for your clients?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Sure.

MR. COCHRAN: Do you support yourself with that work?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I do. Not easy, but I do.

MR. COCHRAN: You work hard to make your money?

MR. HEIDSTRA: You bet. Six days a week.

MR. COCHRAN: You work six days a week?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Six days.

MR. COCHRAN: Are you proud of what you do?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I'm proud, I'm happy.

MR. COCHRAN: Are you happy with your dogs even though they live with you at that apartment?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Oh, sure, I love it.

MR. COCHRAN: And you lived at this apartment for how many years?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Oh, 17 years.

MR. COCHRAN: Do you like it after 17 years?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I live there still. I must like it somehow.

MR. COCHRAN: Now, you were asked a number of questions about your contacts with the Defense. Has anybody from the Defense ever said anything to you about making any money on this case?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Never.

MR. COCHRAN: Have you ever discussed that with anybody from the Defense? You never have, have you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, never.

MR. COCHRAN: Now, with regard to the time, Mr. Darden asked you a series of questions about the time that night. Prior to June 12th of 1994, how many times would you say you walked that route that you took that night in walking your dogs? How many times?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Boy, in 17 years it must be hundreds of times.

MR. COCHRAN: 17 years you have been doing that?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Well, the dogs are 14, so 15 years.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. So the oldest dog is 14 and you had the dog since the dog was a baby?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, sure.

MR. COCHRAN: So the oldest dog is 14 years so would it be correct to say that you have been walking that dog at least for the fourteen years or so?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Oh, sure.

MR. COCHRAN: And you have talked to us about age and I can't go into that any more, but at any rate, did--you have told us the route, so are you pretty aware of how long it takes for you to walk that route with those two dogs, given their physical condition and given their age?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Oh, sure. So long so many times I know exactly the time it take every night.

MR. COCHRAN: So is there any doubt in your mind that at the time that you first heard the barking of what you think was the Akita that it was approximately 10:35 in the evening? Any doubt in your mind?

MR. HEIDSTRA: 10:30, 10:35.

MR. DARDEN: Objection, leading.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. COCHRAN: No doubt in your mind regarding that?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, sure.

MR. COCHRAN: And then when you moved--you moved from one location to the back of the house and the garage that you were shown--

MR. HEIDSTRA: Uh-huh.

MR. COCHRAN: --is there any doubt in your mind that was approximately 10:40?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, around 10:40 slow walking bark with the dog. I repeat it again, very slow.

MR. COCHRAN: No doubt in your blind about the time, 10:40?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Around this time, 10:40.

MR. COCHRAN: Then when you got on your street, on Dorothy Street and you looked back and you saw this vehicle that you described, this white wagon or whatever you described for us--

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. COCHRAN: --or Jeep, when you looked back and that vehicle was turning to go south, did you tell us it was about 10:45 at that point?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Must have been around 10:45.

MR. COCHRAN: Are you pretty clear about that time?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And then you went home?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Slowly went back home, yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And with regard to the anchors that came on this particular night, do you know the weekend anchors in Los Angeles to identify them by name?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No.

MR. COCHRAN: At the various television stations?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I don't know. I have just--

MR. COCHRAN: You just turn the television on to watch the news?

MR. HEIDSTRA: If somebody tell me the name I will remember maybe.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. So your best recollection is that you were watching ABC channel 7 that evening?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, most of the time.

MR. COCHRAN: You are clear that when you got home that the news was coming on itself; is that right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, it was already--the news had just started.

MR. COCHRAN: And you knew that to make it around eleven o'clock or thereabouts, right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Just starting 11:00, yeah.

MR. COCHRAN: And you had left home because you looked at your watch at 10:15?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Exactly, yes.

MR. COCHRAN: When is the last time that you saw Miss Patricia Baret?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Oh, a few weeks ago, three weeks or something like that.

MR. COCHRAN: Was that while you were working with--

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, I come always in front to get the keys.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. She is still working for the same gentleman?

MR. HEIDSTRA: She is still there.

MR. COCHRAN: That is the same gentleman you are working with?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. COCHRAN: Now, Mr. Darden asked some questions and you told him at one point that somebody had indicated to you that you were a crucial witness, one of the detectives. Do you remember that?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes, Mr. Payne.

MR. COCHRAN: Was that Detective Payne?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Detective Payne, yes.

MR. COCHRAN: When did he tell you you were a crucial witness?

MR. HEIDSTRA: When?

MR. COCHRAN: When did he say that to you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Oh, that was just a little later than when he took me on my interview. He looked at me and said, "Robert, you are a crucial witness for us."

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And that would be around the time of the statement I just read you that took place on June 21st?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah. A little later probably I met him.

MR. COCHRAN: And then yesterday we talked about the fact that you came down here to this building and you saw Mr. Hodgman and Miss Clark in this building. Do you remember that?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, sure.

MR. COCHRAN: And at that time had Detective Payne at that point indicated to you you were a crucial witness?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. So he had already said it by that point?

MR. HEIDSTRA: He said it.

MR. COCHRAN: At that time Mr. Hodgman was coordinating things in this--strike that. You wouldn't know. Strike that. At any rate, Mr. Hodgman was part of the Prosecution team?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Sure. I met him, yes.

MR. COCHRAN: It was in his office that you met?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah. He was behind a desk so I assume.

MR. COCHRAN: And Miss Clark was there?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Now, after that do you recall--I think this response to one of Mr. Darden's questions you mentioned that you were out walking your dog or dogs, at one point you saw Detective Payne go by and you were out on the street?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah. I was walking my dog and they came by with Mr. Hodgman and he waved at me and they talked very quick to me in the car.

MR. COCHRAN: You recognized Mr. Hodgman from having seen him down here in his office?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Oh, sure, sure.

MR. COCHRAN: Miss Clark wasn't with him at that point?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No.

MR. COCHRAN: You saw Detective Payne?

MR. HEIDSTRA: He was driving.

MR. COCHRAN: And they waved to you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, they said "Hi, Robert."

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Now, the fact that you weren't called by the Prosecution after all their contacts with you, you are not mad at the Prosecution, are you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No. I was disappointed maybe, but I was not mad.

MR. COCHRAN: Why were you disappointed?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Because they called me a crucial witness and I felt what I heard and what I saw might be important for them.

MR. COCHRAN: And then you were subpoenaed by the Defense; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: The fact that you were subpoenaed by the Defense, did that in any way make you change your testimony at all?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Not at all.

MR. COCHRAN: And when I just read you the statement that you gave to Detective Payne back on June 21st, was that the same thing you told us here in court?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Exactly.

MR. COCHRAN: Now, with regard to the interview with Mr. Darden on or about I guess May 29th, 1995, in that interview--

MR. DARDEN: Objection to the form of the question. I don't think it was an interview.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. COCHRAN: In that interview Mr. Darden did most of the questioning, is that what you indicated to us?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And you say he was cruel to you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Well, not cruel, but he was very--not pleasant.

MR. COCHRAN: I thought he used the word "Cruel."

MR. HEIDSTRA: Not pleasant.

MR. COCHRAN: Is that a better word?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Was not smiling, believe me.

MR. COCHRAN: Wasn't smiling? Okay. But you tried to cooperate, did you not?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Sure.

MR. COCHRAN: And at that time you were still willing to be a witness; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Pardon?

MR. COCHRAN: You were still willing to be a witness if you were called by either side, right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Sure, sure.

MR. COCHRAN: With regard to this white car that you said was a wagon or a Jeep of some kind, you never at any time saw any windows on that vehicle, did you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: It was dark so they looked dark to me, the windows. There was no light in there.

MR. COCHRAN: Did you ever see--Mr. Darden asked you a question did you ever see any bumpers on that vehicle?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, I could never see that from that distance.

MR. COCHRAN: And the conditions, so that we are clear, that you were up Dorothy, was about how many yards, if you can tell us?

MR. HEIDSTRA: 50 yards. At least 50 yards. 50 yards.

MR. COCHRAN: At least 50 yards?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. COCHRAN: And have you ever at any time told anyone that you heard or heard the voice of O.J. Simpson out at Bundy on June 12th, 1994?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Never, never. Could never hear the voice.

MR. COCHRAN: Did you ever at any time tell anyone that you heard the voice of a black man around that location at that time?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, absurd. No, never.

MR. COCHRAN: May I have just a second, your Honor?

(Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel and the Defendant.)

MR. COCHRAN: I have nothing further of this witness at this point.

THE COURT: All right. This will be a good time. All right. Ladies and gentlemen, we are going to take our recess for the noon hour. Mr. Heidstra, you may step down. You are ordered to come back at 1:30.

MR. HEIDSTRA: Thank you.

THE COURT: Sorry. Remember all my admonitions to you. Don't discuss the case among yourselves, don't form any opinions about the case, don't conduct any deliberations until the matter has been submitted to you, don't allow anybody to communicate with you with regard to the case. See you at 1:30.

(At 12:04 P.M. the noon recess was taken until 1:30 P.M. of the same day.)

LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA; WEDNESDAY, JULY 12, 1995 1:30 P.M.

Department no. 103 Hon. Lance A. Ito, Judge

APPEARANCES: (Appearances as heretofore noted.)

(Janet M. Moxham, CSR no. 4855, official reporter.)

(Christine M. Olson, CSR no. 2378, official reporter.)

(The following proceedings were held in open court, out of the presence of the jury:)

THE COURT: May I see counsel with the court reporter, please.

(Page 36460 transcribed and sealed under separate cover, volume 185A.)

(The following proceedings were held in open court, out of the presence of the jury:)

THE COURT: All right. Back on the record in the Simpson matter. All parties are again present. The jury is not present. Counsel, we have two matters that have been filed this morning, both motions in limine. Counsel, what is your pleasure on them?

MR. DOUGLAS: Certainly, your Honor. Miss Harman is an expected witness. She is present in the building. It's likely now that we will not get to her today. If the Court wants to take this up tomorrow and deal with the jury in the remaining time, it's fine with me. It would allow me more time to research the authorities that we were given this morning.

THE COURT: All right.

MS. LEWIS: That's fine. And the other motion, your Honor, regarding Mr. Reichardt?

MR. COCHRAN: Mr. Reichardt, I think the same would pertain. He would not be called before tomorrow.

THE COURT: All right.

MS. LEWIS: I should alert the Court, there is an error in the body of the motion on the first page.

THE COURT: I'm sorry, counsel?

MS. LEWIS: Christian Reichardt makes a motion to prevent Christian Reichardt from testifying in the matters discussed in the motion.

THE COURT: I wondered about that.

MS. LEWIS: Tomorrow morning then at 9:00?

THE COURT: Yes.

MS. LEWIS: Thank you.

THE COURT: All right. Miss Clark, did you have the opportunity to talk to Mr. Bailey concerning the other discovery issues?

MS. CLARK: I did, your Honor. One of them I think is resolved at least with respect to the tape. We never had a tape. What happened--not what was represented. What happened was, I never knew about any tape. I had the--our people go and check it out when Mr. Bailey made his motion this morning.

And what we determined is that Mr. Lang told Detective Payne that he had taped the interview himself, and then Mr.--Detective Payne asked for a copy and Mr. Lang gave him a copy. And when Mr.--when Detective Payne listened to it, it had a seminar on one side and it was blank on the other. He called Tom Lang then and asked him for another copy because the one he had had nothing on it, and Mr. Lang informed him that he would get it to him and then said he'd lost it and couldn't find it and never did give him one. So we didn't have a tape. I understand now that the tape in fact does exist, that it's in the possession of Mr. Lang's lawyer who is currently transcribing it. Mr. Bailey will pick it up this afternoon and we will pick up a copy from him. I had thought that Mr. Lang was going to be testifying this afternoon having received no notice to the contrary until two minutes ago, and I guess this will give us time to go over that. Mr. Hodgman needs to address the Court ex parte on some other matters.

THE COURT: As to this witness?

MS. CLARK: Yes.

THE COURT: All right. Mr. Bailey.

MR. BAILEY: Well, I'm inclined to object to an ex parte address on the forthcoming Defense witness if he is called, but I will--

THE COURT: I have the feeling that--is this a request under 1054.7?

MS. CLARK: It is, your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. Then have Mr. Hodgman here at 3:30.

MS. CLARK: Yes, your Honor.

MR. BAILEY: If it pleases the Court--

MS. CLARK: May I make the call?

THE COURT: Why don't you have one of your minions run upstairs and tell Mr. Hodgman.

MR. BAILEY: Miss Clark did not address the sketch which Mr. Lang says he gave to the Prosecution, and I'm wondering if any research has been done into the existence of the sketch in his file.

MS. CLARK: We'll discuss that with Mr. Bailey.

THE COURT: All right. Well, discuss it. If it exists, I would like it produced.

MR. BAILEY: Well, you want the tape now? I would like the sketch now. I will accept the representation of Miss Clark that the tape somehow didn't fly and in fact the witness relocated it I find when he moved seven days ago, moved his home. So it looks like we'll both have access to it in time to prevent any lasting damage. The sketch issue I'm still pressing.

THE COURT: All right. I'm going to direct the Prosecution to produce that. Mr. Bailey, who has the sketch to your knowledge?

MR. BAILEY: Mr. Lang said he gave it to a policeman.

THE COURT: Miss Clark?

MS. CLARK: That's not what I understand.

THE COURT: What's your understanding?

MS. CLARK: I don't have an understanding that any police officer received any sketch.

MR. BAILEY: Well, to someone connected with the Prosecution. They sent someone to pick it up together with the statement the both sides have that he wrote out in his own handwriting detailing what he saw that night. That was almost contemporaneous.

THE COURT: All right. I'm not getting a clear answer from the Prosecution. Is there such a sketch?

MS. CLARK: I need for Mr. Hodgman to address the Court under 1054.7, your Honor. If you would like, I'll ask Mr. Hodgman to come down now.

THE COURT: No. I'll do it at 3:30. Let's get in as much time as we can with the jury.

MR. BAILEY: Very well, your Honor.

THE COURT: Okay. Thank you. All right. Deputy Magnera, let's have the jurors, please.

(The following proceedings were held in open court, in the presence of the jury:)

THE COURT: All right. Thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen. Please be seated. Let the record reflect we've been rejoined by all the members of our jury panel. Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.

THE JURY: Good afternoon.

THE COURT: We have a slight change in our schedule this afternoon. We'll be taking the recess today at 3:30. All right. Mr. Heidstra, would you resume the witness stand, please.

Robert Heidstra, the witness on the stand at the time of the lunch recess, resumed the stand and testified further as follows:

THE COURT: All right. Good afternoon again, Mr. Heidstra.

MR. HEIDSTRA: Good afternoon.

THE COURT: You are reminded, sir, you are still under oath. And, Mr. Cochran, have you completed your redirect?

MR. COCHRAN: Yes. I have no other questions at this point, your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. Mr. Darden.

MR. DARDEN: Your Honor, may I confer with Mr. Cochran for a moment?

THE COURT: You may.

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorney and Defense counsel.)

MR. DARDEN: Your Honor, we just received this. Can we just have a moment to digest--thank you.

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. DARDEN

MR. DARDEN: Mr. Heidstra, you already told us that you detail cars, right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: May we have a second?

THE COURT: All right.

MR. DARDEN: I'm sorry.

(Brief pause.)

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorney and Defense counsel.)

MR. DARDEN: Mr. Heidstra--

MR. DARDEN: May I?

THE COURT: Proceed.

MR. DARDEN: You told us that you detail cars for a living; is that right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: That's right.

MR. DARDEN: And when you detail a car, you pretty much wash and wax and clean just about every aspect of the interior and exterior of that vehicle; is that right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: And yet, it's your testimony that you can't tell the difference between a Bronco and explorer and a Jeep?

MR. COCHRAN: That's argumentative. Asked and answered.

THE COURT: Sustained. It's argumentative as phrased. There's been no testimony of explorers.

MR. DARDEN: I'm sorry.

MR. DARDEN: Is it your testimony that you can't tell or rather distinguish a Ford Bronco from a Jeep?

MR. HEIDSTRA: They look very much alike in the distance, 50 yards at least. I couldn't say exactly what it was. Impossible.

MR. DARDEN: And also that you can't distinguish a Ford Bronco from a Chevy Blazer?

MR. HEIDSTRA: They look very much alike.

MR. DARDEN: A Chevy Blazer and a Ford Bronco looks very much alike to you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah. They look alike, certainly from a distance, from a distance.

MR. DARDEN: You were just reading your statement to Detective Payne with Mr. Cochran; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: But you didn't read all of that statement to the jury, did you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: You didn't read this part, did you, at the bottom of page 1 where the statement reads: "It was his opinion the sounds came from the brown estate as that residence is the only one in the area with a large metal security gate." You didn't read that this morning when you and Mr. Cochran were reading your statement, did you?

MR. COCHRAN: I object to the form of the question.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. DARDEN: Is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes, it's correct.

MR. DARDEN: Your Honor, I have here 15 photographs. May they be marked collectively as--

THE CLERK: 501.

MR. DARDEN: 501?

THE COURT: All right. People's 501 collectively. And how many photographs?

MR. DARDEN: 15.

(Peo's 501 for id = 15 photographs)

THE COURT: And you've shown those to Mr. Cochran?

MR. DARDEN: Yes.

THE COURT: All right.

MR. DARDEN: Mr. Heidstra, showing you the 15 photographs here, all of those photographs depict the metal gates at residences located at or adjacent--

MR. COCHRAN: I object to this, to the form of the question.

MR. DARDEN: --875--

MR. COCHRAN: Object to the form of the question.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. DARDEN: --south Bundy; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Pardon?

MR. DARDEN: Each of those photographs show gates, metal gates at residences located adjacent to and within a couple of doors from 875 Bundy; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: That's correct.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. Would you just take a look through all 15 photographs just to make sure? And would you also take notice of whether or not the addresses for each of those residences is indicated on the photographs.

MR. HEIDSTRA: (The witness complies.) sure.

THE COURT: All right. The record should reflect the witness has had the opportunity to examine each of those 15 photographs. Mr. Darden.

MR. DARDEN: And in fact, Mr. Heidstra, those photographs or some of those photographs show gates that look exactly like the gate at 875 south Bundy, don't they?

MR. HEIDSTRA: They do. Sure.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. There are others residences with gates just like Nicole Brown's front gate, correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah. They're some of them, not all.

MR. DARDEN: Yet it's your testimony that from your position in that alley, that you could tell, that you knew that the gate that you heard slam closed was Nicole Brown's gate?

MR. COCHRAN: I object to the form. That's been asked and answered.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. HEIDSTRA: Sure. Because I was just opposite Nicole's condo and I knew the dog was behind that gate. So I thought that this is--must be the gate from the dog.

MR. DARDEN: You knew the dog was behind the gate?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Oh, before, yes. I've seen him before, yes.

MR. DARDEN: But you knew the dog was behind the gate that night?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No. He didn't sound like he was behind the gate. He was on the street somehow. It sound like it. He was very close by when I came to the--

MR. DARDEN: The Akita was walking on the street?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No. I didn't see him, but he sound very close, very close when I came to the corner.

MR. DARDEN: Did it sound to you as if the Akita was on the east side of Bundy?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No. That I couldn't see. No, I don't think so.

MR. DARDEN: Are you certain that the Akita was not at 875 south Bundy when you heard the barking?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I couldn't say that. It sounded like he was on the street and he was in front of the condo or something like that.

MR. DARDEN: Did it sound to you as if the Akita was walking up and down the street?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, no, no, no, no. Was not walking.

MR. DARDEN: Do you know someone by the name of Lanue? Lanue?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No. Never heard. If I see the person, maybe I recognize him.

MR. DARDEN: Do you know someone named Christian Anders?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, I know him.

MR. DARDEN: Do you know someone named Marilee Kane?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. DARDEN: Your Honor, may we approach for a moment?

THE COURT: With the court reporter, please.

(The following proceedings were held at the bench:)

MR. SHAPIRO: We don't have a new statement.

MR. DARDEN: I was just handed a note, Christian Anders is also Lanue.

MS. CLARK: That is the same guy.

MR. COCHRAN: Same person as Lanue.

THE COURT: All right. These appear to be witness statements with today's date.

MR. DARDEN: I just want to ask him briefly about a couple points contained on those statements--in the Anders statement. My focus will be on this portion where Mr. Anders asked him about the voices, and Heidstra said with regard to the second voice that, "The thing is clear to me it was O.J.," and then on the Kane statement, according to Miss Kane, he stated that he saw a white Bronco pull out of the alley behind Bundy. And so those basically are the two areas I want to ask him about. Then I have a few brief questions. Just so the Court and counsel are aware, I will be finished in 10 minutes.

MR. COCHRAN: First of all, I've never seen these statements before. I'm mindful of the fact these are presumably phone calls that occurred over the lunch hour. I haven't had a chance to check this out, and I think this is extremely unfair. I remember with regard to cross-examination of Fuhrman, you made us submit things and go into a lot of detail before we presented the witness as to what they would say. We haven't had the chance to check out these statements. We haven't talked to them. Apparently they talked telephonically with Detective Lange. And I think in a case of such high publicity, that will be grossly unfair to us. How can I cross-examine, deal with this when I don't know anything about this. I don't know these people. If they want to bring him back for this part, so be it. We need to find out who these people are, what their background is, what they said to Lange or whatever. They never even met with these people. There was a telephonic interview. This is extremely unfair. We've never tried to take a witness, call him that day, get a statement and then try to cross-examine some witness on it the entire trial. So I think that's extremely unfair and I would object to it, especially this statement that--and the statement is so confusing. And one of the statements counsel alluded to in Miss Kane's statement, he said he didn't mention a certain voice. It also has in here, he observed a white van at some point. So these are people calling over the phone. I don't think the Prosecutor ever interviewed them or even knows their names or who these people are, and to be allowed to ask that I think is grossly unfair.

THE COURT: Didn't he just testify that he is acquainted with people with these names?

MR. COCHRAN: He didn't know anybody by the name of Lanue. He said he thought he knew someone by the name of Kane or the other. That is not the test, your Honor. It's still unfair to us from the standpoint of cross-examination. As I said, in the past, you required us to present witnesses--offer of proof, go talk to these people before you allowed us to ask questions like this. This is extremely prejudicial. Assume he denies he ever said this, which will be consistent with what he said before. And it's still extremely unfair under the circumstances without some further checking. I don't think that's fair.

THE COURT: Mr. Darden.

MR. DARDEN: That's not required under the evidence code. And if we want to put witnesses on that we have not--or admit evidence or attempt to admit evidence, witness--statements from witnesses we have not seen face-to-face, that's a risk we take. At any event, the witness is here. He is here now, and we just got the information and we should be allowed to take 65 or 70 seconds of the jurors' time to ask these few questions. He can always bring Mr. Heidstra back later if he wants to with some additional testimony on this issue. Of course, you can do redirect today.

MR. COCHRAN: I can't do any redirect until I find out--I don't know anything about this at all. We were put in a position of discovery. The Court saw it the same time we saw it.

THE COURT: The problem we have though, this is impeachment of a witness. So the discovery obligation arises when that witness is called and is about to be impeached with that witness statement. So as far as discovery is concerned, you're on the same footing as you would be any other situation. But what I would like for you to do, Mr. Darden, is to lay a better foundation as to Mr. Heidstra's knowledge of these people and any connection he has with them so that we're certain we're talking about the same people.

MR. COCHRAN: May I say also, the difference in the footing is, even though they hold the statement back from the standpoint of impeachment, they never talked to this person except over the phone. Imagine how many calls we've all gotten in this case from people who are crazy as it turns out who don't have any credibility?

THE COURT: Which is why I'm asking Mr. Darden before he goes forward to ask more foundational questions regarding knowledge and connection with these people.

MR. DARDEN: Can I just indicate, the statement says he's been washing Miss Kane's car for five years. Mr. Anders' statement indicates he's known Mr. Heidstra for several years.

THE COURT: Well, I would like you to elicit it down in the record. I'm also going to ask you to mark these two statements as People's exhibits so if there's any record that has to be examined, we'll know what the statements were.

MR. DARDEN: Okay.

MR. SHAPIRO: Thank you, Judge.

MR. COCHRAN: On cross-examination, Judge--I mean on redirect examination, I don't know these people. Am I to proceed on that right away?

THE COURT: No. If you want leave to recall him later, I'll grant that to you.

MR. COCHRAN: Okay.

THE COURT: Or call these witnesses or--we won't excuse him. We'll just let him loose subject to recall.

MR. COCHRAN: Okay.

(The following proceedings were held in open court:)

THE COURT: All right. Let the record reflect we have all our jurors back with us. Mr. Darden, you may proceed.

MR. DARDEN: Thank you, your Honor.

MR. DARDEN: Mr. Heidstra, you testified that you know Marilee Kane?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. And who was she?

MR. HEIDSTRA: She's a client of mine.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. And does she live on Bundy?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah. She moved in there recently.

MR. DARDEN: Pardon me?

MR. HEIDSTRA: She moved in there recently.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. And where did she live before that?

MR. HEIDSTRA: In Santa Monica.

MR. DARDEN: And did you know her while she was living in Santa Monica?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah. On Idaho.

MR. DARDEN: Pardon?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Idaho. Idaho Street.

MR. DARDEN: Okay.

MR. HEIDSTRA: Idaho. Potatoes.

MR. DARDEN: In fact, you've known Miss Kane for about five years; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: About, about that time, yes.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. And you've been detailing her vehicles for the past five years?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Around that, yes.

MR. DARDEN: And you've had occasion to talk to Miss Kane about your observations and perceptions of June 12th, 1994; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I might have, yes.

MR. DARDEN: When you say you might have, have you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I'm sure I did. Yeah, we talked.

MR. DARDEN: And you told Miss Kane that you usually walk your dog around 10:00 o'clock; is that right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Exactly.

MR. DARDEN: And you told her that you left a little late that Sunday night; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: 10:15 I told her.

MR. DARDEN: You didn't tell Miss Kane that you left at 10:15, did you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Well, she must have misunderstood. I never said that. 10:15. Never said little late.

MR. DARDEN: Well, when talking to Miss Kane, did you state, quote, that you left--I'm sorry. Let me redo that. While talking to Miss Kane, did you tell her that you left, quote, "A little late," unquote?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Late. I left late. Never little late. I left late.

MR. DARDEN: And during your conversation with Miss Kane, you told her that the vehicle that you saw was a white Bronco, didn't you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I didn't say Bronco.

MR. DARDEN: Did you ever tell Miss Kane that you saw a white Bronco?

MR. HEIDSTRA: A white car, a white Blazer, big car, Jeep. I never said a Bronco.

MR. DARDEN: Isn't it true that you told Miss Kane that you saw a white Bronco pull out of the alley behind Bundy?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Pull out the al--I never saw in the alley. No, not at all. I saw the car coming from the west side of Dorothy, but in the alley I never saw it.

MR. DARDEN: Well, while standing on the street at Dorothy, if you look west, you can actually see the mouth of the alley; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No. It's dark behind there, completely dark. You can see nothing. Very dark.

MR. DARDEN: Isn't there a streetlight at the corner, Mr. Heidstra?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Just on the corner that shines just the crossing, but not behind there.

MR. DARDEN: Did you tell Miss Kane that you saw a white Bronco pull out of the alley behind--

MR. HEIDSTRA: I never said--

MR. COCHRAN: Asked and answered, your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled. You can answer the question.

MR. HEIDSTRA: I never saw a Bronco. It looked like a big--like a Blazer car like--

MR. DARDEN: The question is, did you tell Miss Kane that you saw a white Bronco pull out of the alley behind Bundy?

MR. COCHRAN: Asked and answered.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. HEIDSTRA: I can't recall that. I said big Jeep or Blazer like car. It could have been a Bronco. I don't know. But I didn't say specifically a Bronco.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. So your answer to my question is no then, sir?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Pardon?

MR. DARDEN: The answer to my question is no?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No. I don't recall that at all.

MR. DARDEN: But it's your testimony that it could have been a Bronco; is that right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Could have been.

MR. DARDEN: Okay.

MR. HEIDSTRA: The distance was big. I could never see that for sure.

MR. DARDEN: And when you first saw that vehicle, which could have been a Bronco, it was going east on Dorothy, right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes. It came down the street there.

MR. DARDEN: And the alley, the alley that leads behind Nicole Brown's condo would have been just west of that Bronco?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah. That was west.

MR. DARDEN: The car that looks like a Bronco.

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah. It was west.

MR. DARDEN: You don't know whether or not that vehicle came out of the alleyway?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I told you I could never see it. It was dark as can be. There is no light there. It came out of the darkness. I don't know from where.

MR. DARDEN: And in terms of the time, the time in which you saw that white vehicle, you can only give us an approximation, right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: You can't give us the exact time?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No. I didn't look at my watch.

MR. DARDEN: And were you standing in front of a residence when you saw that white vehicle that looked like a Bronco?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: Do you know the address to that residence?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No. Like I said, that's three houses--block from the alley. I don't know the street there, no. Two--it's three houses from the corner of Bundy I be.

MR. DARDEN: So would you be west of the alley or east of the alley?

MR. HEIDSTRA: East of the alley.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. And we're talking about the alley that--the alley on the east side of Bundy, correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

MR. DARDEN: Now, you've also testified that you walked down the alley behind--the one located behind Nicole Brown's condo, right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I never walked--never crossed there. I never been with my dogs in that alley ever.

MR. DARDEN: Are you aware that when the police found the bodies, that the front gate at 875 south Bundy was open?

MR. COCHRAN: I object to this, your Honor. This is beyond the scope.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. DARDEN: You've already told us that you were interviewed by the news, correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. And didn't you tell a television reporter that the intersection in the area at Bundy and Dorothy was well lit?

MR. HEIDSTRA: It's well lit. Exactly, yes.

MR. DARDEN: So you could see the mouth of the alleyway then; is that correct?

MR. COCHRAN: Asked and answered, your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled. You can answer the question.

MR. HEIDSTRA: I could never see it. It was dark, very dark. Came out of the darkness, like I said, into the light on the crossing from Bundy and Dorothy out of the darkness. Don't know where it came from.

MR. DARDEN: May I have one moment, your Honor?

(Brief pause.)

MR. DARDEN: And when you spoke to the news reporter, did you tell the reporter that you could make out the vehicle clearly because of that streetlight located at the intersection?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Could see certainly a light colored car for sure.

MR. DARDEN: And so the vehicle went south on Bundy; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Exactly, yes. Surely.

MR. DARDEN: It didn't go north?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No. Never.

MR. DARDEN: Had the vehicle gone north, it would have driven right past the front of Nicole Brown's condo; is that right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. DARDEN: Have you seen the photographs of the dog, the bloody paw prints at 875 Bundy?

MR. COCHRAN: Object, your Honor. This is beyond the scope.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. DARDEN: Have you seen the photographs of the bloody paw prints heading south on Bundy?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I saw it in the newspaper.

MR. DARDEN: And that would be the same direction in which the white vehicle that looked like a Bronco went?

MR. HEIDSTRA: South.

MR. DARDEN: When you walk around, have you noticed that your dog follows you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: My dog what?

MR. DARDEN: When you go places or walk--

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. DARDEN: --have you noticed that your dog follows you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: My dog?

MR. COCHRAN: I object to the form of the question. That's irrelevant and immaterial.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. DARDEN: Mr. Cochran was asking you questions on redirect. You testified that you were disappointed that you were not being called as a witness by the Prosecution; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Sure.

MR. DARDEN: And why is that?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Because you called me a crucial witness at that time. I was very surprised about that.

MR. DARDEN: Did you feel that the information that you had--

MR. HEIDSTRA: Sure. The time.

MR. DARDEN: Pardon?

MR. HEIDSTRA: The time.

MR. DARDEN: Just the time?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Well, I thought that was very important.

MR. DARDEN: Well, what about your observations of a white vehicle that looked like a Bronco? Did you think that was important?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Sure it was important, but it was a big distance. I couldn't see exactly what it was.

MR. DARDEN: And the fact that you heard two voices, you thought that was important?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Sure.

MR. DARDEN: And you don't know why the Prosecution didn't call you, do you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No idea.

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

MR. DARDEN: When you walked down the alley, you said it was 10:30 or 10:35 when you first heard the dog bark, right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: About that time, yes.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. And then you walked down the alley.

MR. COCHRAN: Asked and answered, your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled. Overruled.

MR. DARDEN: Right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: How long is that alley?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I have no idea. I can't say that in English. I don't know the yards in English. Would be in meters would be.

MR. DARDEN: How many meters?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Oh, my God. That would be at least hundred meters, 150 meters, something like that I guess. I don't know for sure.

MR. DARDEN: And it took you what; more than 10 minutes to walk a hundred meters?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No 10 minutes.

MR. DARDEN: Pardon?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I was at the corner about 10:35, around 10:35, and I turned around.

MR. DARDEN: I thought you said you were at the corner around 10:30.

MR. HEIDSTRA: 10:30, 10:35.

MR. COCHRAN: Your Honor, I object to that.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. DARDEN: At any event, it took you 10 minutes to walk that hundred meters?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Not 10 minutes.

MR. DARDEN: 5 minutes?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, about that. Because I stood in the alley for a couple of minutes listening to the commotion there.

MR. DARDEN: So is it fair to say that it takes you about what, three minutes to walk a hundred meters with your dogs?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah. But I stood still there. I was standing there listening to the noise and the voices for a couple of minutes.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. So your actual walking time in the alley then was what? Three minutes?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No. More. Four minutes, something, or five minutes.

MR. DARDEN: When Mr. Cochran asked you those additional questions this morning, you took a look at the letter that Mr. Bailey sent you; is that right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I did, yes.

MR. DARDEN: This was the first laminated letter that you've ever received?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Pardon?

MR. DARDEN: Is this the first time that you ever received a laminated letter?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: Your Honor, objection. Irrelevant and immaterial.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. DARDEN: You never received a laminated letter from the Prosecution I take it?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Never, no.

MR. DARDEN: You also told us that you know Christian Anders; is that right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah. I see him sometime passing me.

MR. DARDEN: And he is someone that you see often walking his dogs; is that right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah. He has a little tiny dog, yes.

MR. DARDEN: I'm sorry?

MR. HEIDSTRA: A tiny little dog, yes.

MR. DARDEN: And what kind of dog does he have?

MR. HEIDSTRA: A Shih Tzu or something like that.

MR. DARDEN: I'm sorry. What was that?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Shih Tzu. Shih Tzu.

MR. DARDEN: And since June 12th, 1994, you and he have ran into each other?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah. I see him sometimes walking the dog.

MR. DARDEN: And you and he have talked about the case, correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Oh, yeah. Because he has a TV program. So he was interested.

MR. DARDEN: He has a TV program on cable?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. DARDEN: He asked you to come on to his program?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: And you've known Mr. Anders several years; is that right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No.

MR. DARDEN: How long have you known him?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Since--the first time I met him is not even a year. I know he lived in the neighborhood, but I never talked before with him.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. But you did talk to him about the case?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes. We talked about it.

MR. DARDEN: Did you tell Mr. Anders that you recognized that the second voice that you heard as Mr. Simpson's voice?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Never said that. He asked me, "Do you think it was O.J.," and I said, "I don't know. I never saw the person."

MR. DARDEN: Isn't it true that when Mr. Anders asked you about the second voice, that you responded to him, quote, "The thing is clear to me it was O.J.," unquote?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No. Never said that. He asked me, "Do you think it's O.J.?"

MR. DARDEN: Did you also tell Mr. Anders that the vehicle you saw was a white Bronco?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Not a white Bronco. I said it was a big Jeep like. It could have been, but I was not sure at all.

MR. DARDEN: Didn't you tell Mr. Anders that you observed a white Bronco dashing away from an intersection at Bundy?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Not dashing. Not dashing. And not--I didn't say Bronco. He said, "Could it have been a Bronco?" I said, "I don't know. It could be, but I'm not sure it's the same size as a Blazer."

MR. DARDEN: And didn't you also tell Mr. Anders that that vehicle had tinted windows?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah. It looked like in the dark. When it came--dark windows. It looked like it was tinted windows. It looked--I'm not for sure, but it looked like.

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

MR. DARDEN: Thank you, sir.

MR. HEIDSTRA: You're welcome.

MR. DARDEN: Good afternoon.

THE COURT: Mr. Cochran.

FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. COCHRAN

MR. COCHRAN: Just a few questions more. Sir, with regard to that letter that you got from Mr. Bailey that I showed you earlier, the letter which talked to you about--asked you not to talk to other witnesses, Defense 1240, there was another part on that. They were laminated and kind of stuck together.

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah. Right. Right. Right.

MR. COCHRAN: And do you recall that the other part was an order from Judge Ito about witnesses not watching television?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes. Right. Right.

MR. DARDEN: Objection. Hearsay.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. COCHRAN: So what Mr. Darden is asking you all these questions about was a letter from Mr. Bailey which we've shown to the jury with the Judge's order saying not to watch television; isn't that right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah. Exactly. Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And that's all that you received from Mr. Bailey; is that right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: That's all.

MR. COCHRAN: Now, with regard to these witnesses, I want to ask you specifically, with regard to Christian Anders, have you ever at any time in your life ever said to Christian Anders that O.J. Simpson was at that scene on the night of June 12th, 1994?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Never. Never. I could never have said that. I never saw somebody there.

MR. COCHRAN: And with regard to--did you ever at any time tell Christian Anders that you saw a Bronco on that night? You never did that, did you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No. Big car, big Jeep or it looked like. It could be anything.

MR. COCHRAN: And in fact, from the very beginning, from the time that you first spoke with the detectives in this case on June 21st, you said it was a big white car; is that right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Big Jeep--big Jeep and--or Blazer.

MR. DARDEN: Objection, your Honor. Leading.

THE COURT: Hold on. Sustained. It is leading.

MR. DARDEN: Motion to strike.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Let me state it another way, your Honor.

THE COURT: No. The answer will stand because we're going to get that anyway. Proceed.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Thank you, your Honor.

MR. COCHRAN: With regard to the car that you saw that night, how would you describe that car to this Court and jury?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Jeep, wagon like car and white colored car. I didn't know for sure what it exactly was.

MR. COCHRAN: And when you pointed that particular vehicle out to the police when they were talking to you on June 21st--

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. COCHRAN: --you pointed to a Chevrolet Blazer; is that right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah. It was parked in there.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And you were how far away from that vehicle when you were looking?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Oh, few--few feet. I mean it was very close together.

MR. COCHRAN: Well, the Blazer you were close to?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah. Sure.

MR. COCHRAN: But that particular night, how many meters or how many feet or yards did you tell the jury you were?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Oh, about 50 yards at least.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And have you had occasion to look that and measure that distance?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. COCHRAN: Since that time?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Sure.

MR. COCHRAN: And how did you do that? Did you talk to somebody about the distance?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah. It has to because I don't know the yards in English unless they tell me what the distance was from this house to the corner of Bundy and Dorothy.

MR. COCHRAN: So you talked to someone who knew the distance in yards?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes. Exactly.

MR. COCHRAN: Being French, you know things in meters?

MR. HEIDSTRA: That's it, yeah.

MR. COCHRAN: And from that 50 yards distance, sir, on Dorothy, you were looking back west to Bundy; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And from your vantage point there, were you able to see any alley that might exist behind Bundy there at all?

MR. HEIDSTRA: On the west side you mean?

MR. COCHRAN: Yes. In the alley behind Bundy on the west side.

MR. HEIDSTRA: No. No. Completely dark. I never could see it.

MR. COCHRAN: Did you ever tell anybody you saw any vehicle coming out of that alley?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Never. Never did.

MR. COCHRAN: Did you ever see a vehicle come out of that alley at all?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No.

MR. COCHRAN: And being familiar with that area, if a person were coming and going eastbound on Dorothy and they wanted to go to the Rockingham location, would you expect, knowing that area, that you would turn right and go south to Wilshire?

MR. DARDEN: Objection, your Honor. Objection to the form of the question. Calls for speculation.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. COCHRAN: You wouldn't go south on Wilshire that way, would you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No. You would go north to Sunset.

MR. COCHRAN: And do you have any doubt in your mind that this white car that you can't identified turned right and went south on Bundy?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No doubt. No doubt. No doubt.

MR. COCHRAN: No doubt at all?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Not at all.

MR. COCHRAN: Now, let's take this other witness, this Marilee Kane. With regard to the questions that you were asked, when you talked to--Marilee Kane, is that a woman?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes, a woman.

MR. COCHRAN: When you talked to Miss Marilee Kane, at any time, you never said anything to her about hearing any young adult voice, did you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No. I said a clear voice, was in a clear voice.

MR. COCHRAN: And you talked about the words, "Hey, hey, hey"; is that right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And did you ever mention at all, if you recall, to Miss Kane anything about a second voice at all?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah. I said to her it was two voices I heard. That's it.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. But could you identify that second voice at all?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No. No. It was too much noise.

MR. COCHRAN: And what was the noise coming from?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Came down from Bundy when I was in the alley from Nicole's condo. I'm sure it was there.

MR. COCHRAN: And do you recall at some point talking to Miss Kane and telling her that the white vehicle that you observed could have been a white van? Do you recall ever saying that?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah. It's a Jeep or van I told her, a Blazer or whatever we talked about.

MR. COCHRAN: Same thing you've been telling us here, right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right. Right.

MR. COCHRAN: Is that the same thing you told the detectives back on June 21st, 1994?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes. When they came to my place, sure.

MR. COCHRAN: Now, so that we're clear, Mr. Heidstra, is there any doubt in your mind that you were in that alley and was walking parallel to Bundy on the night of June 12th, 1994?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No doubt. I'd never forget that.

MR. COCHRAN: Any doubt in your mind that when you stopped behind that house, that it was approximately 10:40 P.M.? Any doubt?

MR. DARDEN: Your Honor, that's leading, objection.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. HEIDSTRA: Sure.

MR. COCHRAN: Is there any doubt in your mind about that?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No. No doubt about it.

MR. COCHRAN: Is there any doubt in your mind that when you were on your street on Dorothy and you looked back before you saw this car turning right to go south on Bundy, that it was about 10:45 in the evening?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Around 45, yes.

MR. COCHRAN: Any doubt in your mind about that?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Oh, no. It was--must have been in that time exactly when I came to the alley.

MR. COCHRAN: Is there any doubt in your mind you could not identify the voices of either one of these two people?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Never. Never could I, no.

MR. COCHRAN: And is it part of your vocabulary to identify the race, ethnicity of any particular voice? Can you do that?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No. That's absurd. That's crazy.

MR. DARDEN: Objection. Motion to--

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. HEIDSTRA: That's crazy. Of course not.

MR. COCHRAN: Have you ever done that?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No.

MR. COCHRAN: Would you do that?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No. No. No. Never in my life.

MR. COCHRAN: Did you do that in this case?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No.

MR. COCHRAN: Do you even know what O.J. Simpson sounds like?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No. I heard him maybe once or twice on TV, but never. I don't know the voice at all.

MR. COCHRAN: You never heard his voice that night, did you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No. No. I don't know. It was too much noise.

MR. DARDEN: Objection, your Honor. Objection. Speculation.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. COCHRAN: And you never saw him that night, did you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Never. Saw nobody.

MR. COCHRAN: Have you told us the truth here today?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I told you the truth.

MR. COCHRAN: And even with regard to this man who is--supposedly has a cable TV show, he asked you to be on his TV show did he?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: Did you turn him down also?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I turned him down.

MR. COCHRAN: Have you turned everybody down about being on their show?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I turned them all down, yes.

MR. COCHRAN: Except the news when the news--

MR. HEIDSTRA: Well, yes. Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: Now, have you been offered--did someone offer you to go on Hard Copy?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah. There was a lady, a friend of--

MR. COCHRAN: A lady asked you to go on Hard Copy with some other person?

MR. DARDEN: Objection, your Honor. This is leading, irrelevant, beyond the--

MR. COCHRAN: I'm asking.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And who was that person that asked you to go on Hard Copy?

MR. HEIDSTRA: It was Patricia.

MR. COCHRAN: Patricia Barrett?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. COCHRAN: Did you go on Hard Copy with Patricia Barrett?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No. I refused.

MR. COCHRAN: You did what?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I refused. I didn't want to do it.

MR. COCHRAN: Did you take any money from anybody?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No. No. Nothing.

MR. COCHRAN: Thank you very much. Nothing further.

THE COURT: Mr. Darden.

MR. DARDEN: Just a couple questions, your Honor.

FURTHER RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. DARDEN

MR. DARDEN: Are you aware that Patricia Barrett appeared on Hard Copy?

MR. HEIDSTRA: She says she would appear on Hard Copy.

MR. DARDEN: Are you aware that she did?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I don't know.

MR. DARDEN: Are you aware--

MR. HEIDSTRA: And I never watch that program.

MR. DARDEN: Are you aware that she did and she didn't get paid?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I don't know.

MR. COCHRAN: Well, just a moment. I object to that, your Honor. Object to that.

THE COURT: Sustained. The answer is stricken. The jury is to disregard the implication of the question.

MR. DARDEN: And you didn't turn Christian Anders down when he asked you to appear on his show, did you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Sure. I didn't want to do it. I said let me think about it.

MR. DARDEN: What you actually told Mr. Anders was you would have to talk to your lawyer; is that right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah. Well, sure. I don't want to go--I never did it. I refused.

MR. DARDEN: You got a lawyer?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No. I talk to a--

MR. COCHRAN: Just a moment. Just a moment. I object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. HEIDSTRA: I don't have a lawyer. I know--a lawyer--a lawyer do some cases for me for my apartment, everything. So I told him about it.

MR. DARDEN: Isn't it true that around December of 1994, that you asked Mr. Field to refer you to his lawyer?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Might. I don't remember that.

MR. DARDEN: Did you, Mr. Heidstra?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I don't remember that.

MR. DARDEN: Did you ask Mr. Field to refer you to his lawyer so that--

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, no, no, no.

MR. DARDEN: --you could have a lawyer to deal with your involvement in this case?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No. I felt maybe I need a lawyer, but never asked his lawyer. I never asked about his lawyer. I don't know what kind of lawyer he has at all.

MR. DARDEN: Do you feel like you need a lawyer just to come here and tell the jury the truth as you say you have today?

MR. COCHRAN: I object to the from of that question. It's argumentative.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. DARDEN: It's your focus, in terms of financial gain as a result of testifying in this case, is after the case is over; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No. No plans whatsoever.

MR. DARDEN: That's all I have, your Honor.

FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. COCHRAN

MR. COCHRAN: Now, you've come here and testified and you said you've told us the truth. Do you have a lawyer anywhere in this audience out here today with you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No. No.

MR. COCHRAN: You came in here unarmed without a lawyer, right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: On my own, yes.

MR. COCHRAN: Thank you, your Honor. Nothing further.

MR. DARDEN: Nothing further.

THE COURT: All right. All right. Mr. Heidstra, thank you very much. I'm going to release you for the day. However, you are subject to being recalled.

MR. HEIDSTRA: Okay. Thank you.

THE COURT: Thank you very much, sir. All right. Next witness.

MR. BAILEY: If it please the Court, Captain Wayne Stanfield is being called out of order.

MR. COCHRAN: May I please have a moment? Because--if the Court allows us, because of the--

THE COURT: Let me see counsel at the sidebar.

(A conference was held at the bench, not reported.)

(The following proceedings were held in open court:)

THE COURT: All right. As to the Defense, Mr. Cochran, you have a witness you want to call out of order for scheduling reasons?

MR. COCHRAN: Yes, your Honor, because he cannot be here after today.

THE COURT: All right. Mr. Bailey.

MR. BAILEY: Mr. Stanfield, would you be sworn, please.

Wayne Stanfield, called as a witness by the Defendant, was sworn and testified as follows:

THE COURT: Would you stand over here next to the podium, sir, and face the clerk.

THE CLERK: Raise your right hand, sir. You do solemnly swear that the testimony you may give in the cause now pending before this court shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

MR. STANFIELD: I do.

THE CLERK: Please have a seat in the witness stand and state and spell your first and last names for the record.

MR. STANFIELD: And I am Wayne Stanfield, W-A-Y-N-E, Stanfield, S-T-A-N-F-I-E-L-D.

THE CLERK: Thank you.

THE COURT: Mr. Bailey.

DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. BAILEY

MR. BAILEY: Where do you reside, Mr. Stanfield, just the city?

MR. STANFIELD: Camarillo.

MR. BAILEY: Camarillo, California?

MR. STANFIELD: Yes.

MR. BAILEY: What is your occupation?

MR. STANFIELD: I'm an airline pilot.

MR. BAILEY: And what rank do you hold?

MR. STANFIELD: Captain.

MR. BAILEY: How long have you been a captain?

MR. STANFIELD: Three and a half years.

MR. BAILEY: Did you fly on the evening of June 12th, 1994?

MR. STANFIELD: Yes, sir, I did.

MR. BAILEY: Where did you fly from and to?

MR. STANFIELD: Los Angeles to Chicago, Chicago to Albany.

MR. BAILEY: And what time did you depart Los Angeles that night?

MR. STANFIELD: 2345.

MR. BAILEY: Do you remember the flight number?

MR. STANFIELD: 668. Yes, sir.

MR. BAILEY: And what kind of equipment were you flying?

MR. STANFIELD: A Super 80, an MD80.

MR. BAILEY: That's a McDonald Douglas--

MR. STANFIELD: Yes, it is. A stretch DC9.

MR. BAILEY: Follow on to the DC9?

THE COURT: Excuse me, Captain. Would you please allow the lawyers to finish asking their question before you start answering.

MR. STANFIELD: Yes, your Honor.

THE COURT: Court reporter can only take down one person at a time.

MR. BAILEY: How long have you been an American captain?

MR. STANFIELD: 10 years.

MR. BAILEY: And prior to that, what did you do?

MR. STANFIELD: I was a carpenter for four years, I worked for Continental Airlines for two years and then I was in the navy, active duty, and I also did navy reserve duty as well.

MR. BAILEY: Are you still in the navy?

MR. STANFIELD: Yes, I am.

MR. BAILEY: And what is your current rank?

MR. STANFIELD: I am a Captain Selectee.

MR. BAILEY: Okay. Now, you gave the time as 2345. Is that military time?

MR. STANFIELD: Yes, sir. 11:45 P.M.

MR. BAILEY: P.M., in the evening. Okay. What were the conditions that evening, if you remember?

MR. STANFIELD: The weather conditions?

MR. BAILEY: Anything remarkable about the flight?

MR. STANFIELD: No, sir.

MR. BAILEY: Anything remarkable about the passengers on the flight?

MR. STANFIELD: No, sir, except for Mr. Simpson was on the flight.

MR. BAILEY: All right. Did you at some point learn that one of the passengers on your aircraft was Mr. O.J. Simpson?

MR. STANFIELD: Yes, sir.

MR. BAILEY: And without saying what was said, can you tell me who brought that information to you?

MR. STANFIELD: The first flight attendant indicated that Mr. Simpson had come aboard.

MR. BAILEY: All right. What altitude did you fly to Chicago that night, if you remember?

MR. STANFIELD: I think it was 31,000.

MR. BAILEY: All right. And how far into the flight were you in terms of hours and minutes before you first left the cockpit or the cabin?

MR. STANFIELD: Approximately three hours.

MR. BAILEY: What was your purpose in leaving the cockpit, the cabin?

MR. STANFIELD: Just to stretch a little bit and use the facilities.

MR. BAILEY: And did you have something with you that you're obliged to carry on your flights, something personal?

MR. STANFIELD: It's--

MR. BAILEY: Such as a log book?

MR. STANFIELD: It's not obliged. I keep my own personal flight log book. But yes, sir, I did take it back with me.

MR. BAILEY: Are you not required to log every flight?

MR. STANFIELD: Not anymore, sir. After you make captain, there's no requirement to keep your flight hours because you've already made captain.

MR. BAILEY: Is that because there's no higher rank?

MR. STANFIELD: Apparently. Yes.

MR. BAILEY: When you came back into the cabin, how were dressed?

MR. STANFIELD: I had my uniform on without the jacket and without the hat.

MR. BAILEY: Okay. Had you known personally prior to this flight Mr. O.J. Simpson?

MR. STANFIELD: No, sir.

MR. BAILEY: Had you ever met him?

MR. STANFIELD: No, sir.

MR. BAILEY: Were you familiar with what he looked like?

MR. STANFIELD: Yes.

MR. BAILEY: How had you been exposed to Mr. Simpson or how had he been exposed to you?

MR. STANFIELD: Through the media, sporting events, press as well as video and movie.

MR. BAILEY: Have you noticed him on television any number of times?

MR. STANFIELD: Oh, yes, sir.

MR. BAILEY: Okay. And had you ever followed his career?

MR. STANFIELD: Yes, I have.

MR. BAILEY: Back when he was in college in California?

MR. STANFIELD: Yes.

MR. BAILEY: Did you have occasion to speak to Mr. Simpson during the course of the flight you've just described?

MR. STANFIELD: Yes, sir, I did.

MR. BAILEY: Where was he sitting?

MR. STANFIELD: In the second row on the right-hand side of the aircraft next to the window.

MR. BAILEY: And how did you greet him?

MR. STANFIELD: I excused myself because I had just moved from the rest room area to around a little bulkhead there and asked if it wouldn't be an imposition to talk to him for a moment.

MR. BAILEY: Okay. When you first encountered Mr. Simpson, he was sitting by the window, was he awake or asleep?

MR. STANFIELD: He was awake.

MR. BAILEY: What, if anything, did you observe that he was doing?

MR. STANFIELD: Just looking out the window. If anything, I would characterize it as being pensive. Just lost in thought.

MR. BAILEY: And did you introduce yourself?

MR. STANFIELD: Well, I asked initially if it wouldn't be an imposition to talk to him and then I introduced myself and we shook hands.

MR. BAILEY: What was his response when you asked if that would be an imposition?

MR. DARDEN: Objection, your Honor. This is hearsay.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. STANFIELD: He came out of his seat in sort of a half crouched and extended his hand, and we shook hands and I thanked him.

MR. BAILEY: Okay. Did you sit down in the aisle seat?

MR. STANFIELD: Yes, I did. I sat next to him.

MR. BAILEY: And did a conversation ensue?

MR. STANFIELD: Yes, sir, it did.

MR. BAILEY: Without telling us what was said, did you at some point make a request of Mr. Simpson?

MR. STANFIELD: Yes, I did.

MR. BAILEY: And what was that request?

MR. STANFIELD: I asked if he would sign my log book.

MR. BAILEY: And did he in fact do so?

MR. STANFIELD: Yes, sir, he did.

MR. BAILEY: Do you keep your log book under fairly tight control?

MR. STANFIELD: Yes, I do.

MR. BAILEY: Is that something you regard as a personal value?

MR. STANFIELD: It is my own personal record of my flight time and notes about types of approaches and the people I fly with and so forth. So yes, it is important to me.

MR. BAILEY: Okay. At my request, did you make a photostat of a certain page of your log book relevant to that evening's flight?

MR. STANFIELD: Yes, sir, I did.

MR. BAILEY: Do you have it with you?

MR. STANFIELD: Yes, I do.

MR. BAILEY: May I approach, your Honor?

THE COURT: You may.

MR. DARDEN: May I approach with Mr. Bailey?

THE COURT: You may.

MR. BAILEY: May this be marked as Defendant's next in order, your Honor?

THE COURT: 1242.

(Deft's 1242 for id = page of log book)

MR. BAILEY: Handing 1242 to the witness and ask you if there are any markings on that page which you personally observed made by Mr. O.J. Simpson who is sitting at the Defense table?

MR. STANFIELD: Yes.

MR. BAILEY: Would you just point them out on the page?

MR. STANFIELD: His signature and "A peace to you" comment underneath.

MR. BAILEY: And what is the date of the log book page that I'm holding?

MR. STANFIELD: It's 12 June of `94, but it also has 14 June on there as well.

MR. BAILEY: Okay. And I see an MD80, 668 flight number, "LAX to ORD." What does "ORD" stand for?

MR. STANFIELD: Chicago O'hare airport.

MR. BAILEY: Is that where you went that night?

MR. STANFIELD: Yes, sir.

MR. BAILEY: All right. May I, your Honor, just without passing this around show it to the jury, please?

THE COURT: You want to put it on the elmo?

MR. BAILEY: Oh, fine.

MR. BAILEY: This is going to appear on the screen above you. There's one down to your right which may be a little clearer.

MR. BAILEY: If you can crank that up a little bit. Back off, Howard, if you would.

MR. BAILEY: All right. Can you tell us where on that page the date appears?

MR. STANFIELD: On the right-hand corner, 12 June.

MR. BAILEY: The name "Crew," name next to that, can you tell us who that is?

MR. STANFIELD: It's my co-pilot, Bob Julius.

MR. BAILEY: And the first line of the several columns across, can you tell us what information is entered in that row?

MR. STANFIELD: Yes, sir. Flight was flight 668, the aircraft was an MD80, the ship number was 215, the departure point was Los Angeles, the arrival point on that flight was Chicago O'hare. Continuing over, the departure time, Zulu time was 0645, the actual take off time looks like O656, the land time at Chicago, I think it's 10:33. I can't really read it on the monitor.

MR. BAILEY: Do you perhaps have a different flight? I understood that passengers boarded 11:45.

MR. STANFIELD: That's--yeah. Zulu time was 0645. Local time was 2345. The Zulu time is how I keep my log.

MR. BAILEY: I see. When you say "Zulu time," would you translate that, please, for the members of the jury?

MR. STANFIELD: Greenwich mean time.

MR. BAILEY: All right. Is that time used in aviation as a common denominator for all flights?

MR. STANFIELD: Yes, sir. It's--

MR. BAILEY: So when it's 6:45 in Greenwich, England, what time is it in Los Angeles?

MR. STANFIELD: 2345.

MR. BAILEY: Okay. What time, Chicago time, did you land, if you can compute that, please?

MR. STANFIELD: 4:33 was the actual touchdown if that's 33, and then it took us a few minutes to taxi into the gate, then arriving at 4:41.

MR. BAILEY: Okay. And did the flight attendant say stand by for early arrival?

MR. STANFIELD: I don't believe so.

(Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)

MR. BAILEY: Would you raise the paper, please.

MR. BAILEY: Is that the signature that was inscribed that night by Mr. Simpson in your presence?

MR. STANFIELD: Yes, sir, it is.

MR. BAILEY: And the word, "Peace to you," is that in his handwriting?

MR. STANFIELD: Yes, it is.

MR. BAILEY: All right. Now, Captain, you said that you have seen Mr. Simpson from time to time through the media?

MR. STANFIELD: Yes.

MR. BAILEY: Could you compare the demeanor you observed that night in your conversation with Mr. Simpson, the way he acted, the way he reacted to you to the way you've seen him in other circumstances?

MR. STANFIELD: It was the same.

MR. BAILEY: All right. Did he appear to be relaxed?

MR. STANFIELD: Yes, he did.

MR. BAILEY: Did he appear to respond to your questions in an alert fashion?

MR. STANFIELD: Yes, he did.

MR. BAILEY: Did you see anything at all unusual about him that night?

MR. STANFIELD: No, sir.

MR. BAILEY: When you went back to the cockpit, without going into anything that was said, did you have a conversation with Mr. Simpson--about Mr. Simpson with your co-pilot or a remark?

MR. STANFIELD: Yes, sir.

(Discussion between the Defense attorneys and the Defendant was had.)

MR. BAILEY: Okay. When you were seated next to Mr. Simpson that night, Captain, and he was writing in your book, did you see both of his hands?

MR. STANFIELD: Yes.

MR. BAILEY: Did you see any bandages or injuries that caught your attention?

MR. STANFIELD: No, sir. I didn't register on that at all.

MR. BAILEY: Was there anything about the hands you saw that night or Mr. Simpson's appearance otherwise?

MR. STANFIELD: My only observation is that he has a much larger hand than I would have expected, but nothing as far as cuts or anything.

MR. BAILEY: Thank you. Your witness.

THE COURT: Mr. Darden.

MR. DARDEN: Thank you, your Honor.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. DARDEN

MR. DARDEN: You testified a moment ago that you didn't register on that at all?

MR. STANFIELD: No, sir.

MR. DARDEN: What do you mean when you say you didn't register at all?

MR. STANFIELD: Well, the question was, did I see his hands. And in order to shake his hands, hand him my log book and loan him a pen, I did have to look at his hands, yes.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. Were you expecting to see a cut on his left hand?

MR. STANFIELD: No, sir.

MR. DARDEN: Were you looking for a cut on his left hand?

MR. STANFIELD: No, I was not.

MR. DARDEN: Now, you went over to speak to Mr. Simpson three hours into your flight?

MR. STANFIELD: Yes, I did.

MR. DARDEN: And what time did that flight leave L.A.?

MR. STANFIELD: 2345.

MR. DARDEN: 11:45 P.M.?

MR. STANFIELD: Correct.

MR. DARDEN: And so you went over to talk to Mr. Simpson, the Defendant, here at 2:45 A.M.?

MR. STANFIELD: That is correct.

MR. DARDEN: Pacific time?

MR. STANFIELD: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. And the Defendant was wide awake?

MR. STANFIELD: Yes, he was.

MR. DARDEN: He was the only passenger in first class who was awake at that time, wasn't he?

MR. STANFIELD: I can't attest to that. No.

MR. DARDEN: You don't know?

MR. STANFIELD: I do not know.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. Well, there was someone assigned, an employee of the aircraft rather, someone who was assigned to monitor the passengers in first class; is that correct?

MR. STANFIELD: Yes, sir.

MR. DARDEN: To observe the passengers?

MR. STANFIELD: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: Attend to their needs?

MR. STANFIELD: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: And that would be who? Who was that person?

MR. STANFIELD: The first flight attendant, Bev Deteresa.

MR. DARDEN: Beverly Deteresa?

MR. STANFIELD: That's correct.

MR. DARDEN: She was the first class flight attendant on that flight?

MR. STANFIELD: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: Now, when you fly at night, do you turn the cabin lights down?

MR. STANFIELD: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. And you do that particularly when you're flying a red-eye flight, right?

MR. STANFIELD: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: And is that so that the passengers on the plane can sleep?

MR. STANFIELD: Absolutely.

MR. DARDEN: In fact, you expect that the passengers to sleep, don't you?

MR. STANFIELD: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: Mr. Simpson wasn't asleep?

MR. STANFIELD: That's correct.

MR. DARDEN: And so were the cabin lights down during the time that you were speaking to Mr. Simpson?

MR. STANFIELD: They were dimmed, yes.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. And there's an overhead light; is that correct?

MR. STANFIELD: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: Was that light on or off?

MR. STANFIELD: It was on.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. It was on for Mr. Simpson?

MR. STANFIELD: Yes, it was.

MR. DARDEN: And when you saw him, was he holding something in his hand?

MR. STANFIELD: No.

MR. DARDEN: He was just seated there with a light on?

MR. STANFIELD: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: 2:45 in the morning, right?

MR. STANFIELD: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: And when you first approached Mr. Simpson, you spoke to him, right?

MR. STANFIELD: Yes, I did.

MR. DARDEN: And you extended your hand to him?

MR. STANFIELD: I believe it was mutual because he came out of his seat in sort of a half crouch as I had excused myself and extended his hand and I extended mine.

MR. DARDEN: And when you say that he came out of his seat in a half crouch, are you indicating to us that he sort of raised up with his knees bent?

MR. STANFIELD: Yes, he did.

MR. DARDEN: Did he groan in pain when he did that?

MR. STANFIELD: No, sir, he didn't.

MR. DARDEN: And both you and the Defendant extended your hands; is that right?

MR. STANFIELD: Yes, it is.

MR. DARDEN: And you shook his hand?

MR. STANFIELD: Yes, I did.

MR. DARDEN: And you used your right hand to shake his hand?

MR. STANFIELD: Yes, I did.

MR. DARDEN: And he gave you his right hand?

MR. STANFIELD: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: And you gave each other a shake?

MR. STANFIELD: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: And that was a firm handshake, wasn't it?

MR. STANFIELD: It was a firm, warm handshake, yes.

MR. DARDEN: And Mr. Simpson, the Defendant here, didn't grimace in pain when you shook his hand, did he?

MR. STANFIELD: No, sir.

MR. DARDEN: And at some point, you gave the Defendant an ink pen, didn't you?

MR. STANFIELD: Yes, I did.

MR. DARDEN: And you gave him your log?

MR. STANFIELD: Yes, I did.

MR. DARDEN: Did he have any trouble reaching out and taking the pen out of your hand?

MR. STANFIELD: No.

MR. DARDEN: Did he have any trouble holding the ink pen?

MR. STANFIELD: No.

MR. DARDEN: Did he appear to have any trouble signing that autograph?

MR. STANFIELD: No.

MR. DARDEN: Was there anything about the way he behaved that caused you to think that he was in pain?

MR. STANFIELD: No.

MR. DARDEN: And when the Defendant signed that autograph, he signed it with his right hand, didn't he?

MR. STANFIELD: Yes, sir.

MR. DARDEN: Now, you testified that the plane left around 11:45 P.M.?

MR. STANFIELD: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: Did you have to wait at the gate for the Defendant to get onto the plane?

MR. STANFIELD: No.

MR. DARDEN: But he almost missed the plane; is that correct?

MR. STANFIELD: He was very late, yes.

MR. DARDEN: You saw the Defendant come onto the plane?

MR. STANFIELD: I did not.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. Did you see him immediately after he arrived?

MR. STANFIELD: Yes, I did.

MR. DARDEN: And you saw him stowing a bag in the overhead compartment, didn't you?

MR. STANFIELD: I saw him standing at his row. I did not see him stowing the bag, but he was standing as if he could have been.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. Did you tell a Defense investigator that you saw the Defendant stowing a bag in the overhead compartment?

MR. STANFIELD: I don't recall. If I did at the time, it may have been what I recalled, yes.

MR. DARDEN: Did you tell a Defense investigator that you saw him stow a bag that was described as an athletic bag?

MR. STANFIELD: Yes, I believe I did.

MR. DARDEN: And do you recall the color of that bag?

MR. STANFIELD: No, sir, I don't.

MR. DARDEN: Was it only one bag that you saw the Defendant with?

MR. STANFIELD: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: Now, I take it that--well, strike that. You told us that you've seen the Defendant on television before.

MR. STANFIELD: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: You've seen him announcing football games?

MR. STANFIELD: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. Ever notice him to wear gloves while announcing some of those football games?

MR. STANFIELD: I don't recall.

MR. DARDEN: You've seen him on television commercials?

MR. STANFIELD: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: Hertz commercials?

MR. STANFIELD: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: And--I'm sorry. What was your testimony as to his demeanor? When you compared his demeanor on the plane to his demeanor on television and in commercials, you said it was basically the same or what did you say?

MR. STANFIELD: The way the question was worded, was it similar, and yes, it was. He was warm and genial.

MR. DARDEN: You can't attest to the Defendant's demeanor at 10:30 P.M. that night, can you?

MR. STANFIELD: No, I cannot.

MR. DARDEN: Or 10:15 for that matter?

MR. STANFIELD: I cannot.

MR. DARDEN: Or 10:35 to 10:40?

MR. STANFIELD: I cannot.

MR. DARDEN: And you can't tell us whether or not the demeanor that you saw is the way the Defendant usually is?

MR. STANFIELD: I cannot.

MR. BAILEY: I'm sorry. I didn't hear the question.

THE COURT: The way he usually is.

MR. DARDEN: Right?

MR. STANFIELD: That is correct.

MR. DARDEN: Have you ever seen the Defendant's demeanor after he was involved in a heated argument?

MR. STANFIELD: I have not.

MR. DARDEN: Have you ever seen the Defendant's--strike that. Did you ever see the Defendant's demeanor after an incident that occurred on new year's day in 1989?

MR. STANFIELD: No.

MR. BAILEY: Objection.

THE COURT: Sustained. The jury is to disregard.

MR. DARDEN: How many different times did you speak to the Defendant during the flight?

MR. STANFIELD: Just the one time when I was in the cabin.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. But you saw him on other occasions during the flight?

MR. STANFIELD: Upon his arrival at the aircraft, the one time in the cabin and that was it.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. Did you see him as he exited the cabin?

MR. STANFIELD: No, sir.

MR. DARDEN: And on those two occasions that you saw the Defendant, did his demeanor remain the same?

MR. STANFIELD: Yes, sir.

MR. DARDEN: When you approached the Defendant as he was seated on the aircraft, did you notice whether or not he had a Louie Vuitton garment bag with him?

MR. BAILEY: I'm sorry. I can't hear you, Mr. Darden.

THE COURT: Did he have a Louie Vuitton garment bag with him.

MR. STANFIELD: I did not notice.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. And the athletic bag that you now recall having seen, did it appear full?

MR. STANFIELD: I don't recall.

MR. DARDEN: And when you first approached the Defendant at 2:45 Pacific time that morning, he was staring out the window?

MR. STANFIELD: Yes, sir.

MR. DARDEN: Did he have a tray on his lap?

MR. STANFIELD: No.

MR. DARDEN: Have a cup of coffee in his hand?

MR. STANFIELD: No, sir.

MR. DARDEN: Did he have any kind of beverage in his hand?

MR. STANFIELD: No.

MR. DARDEN: No book in his hand?

MR. STANFIELD: No.

MR. DARDEN: Can I have one moment? I'm almost done.

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

MR. DARDEN: Thank you. Thank you, Captain.

THE COURT: All right. Mr. Bailey.

(Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)

MR. BAILEY: Thank you very much for coming, Captain. I have no further questions, your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. Captain, thank you very much. All right. Next witness.

MR. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, with the Court's permission, we would like to call Mr. Mike Norris.

Michael Norris, called as a witness by the Defendant, was sworn and testified as follows:

THE COURT: All right. Mr. Norris, would you just stand there and face the clerk, please.

MR. NORRIS: Sure.

THE CLERK: Raise your right hand, please. You do solemnly swear that the testimony you may give in the cause now pending before this court shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

MR. NORRIS: I do.

THE CLERK: Please have a seat on the witness stand and state and spell your first and last names for the record.

MR. NORRIS: First name Michael, last name is Norris, N-O-R-R-I-S.

THE CLERK: Thank you.

THE COURT: All right. Mr. Norris, would you just set aside those two cups that are there, please. Great. Thank you, sir. All right. Mr. Shapiro.

MR. SHAPIRO: Thank you very much, your Honor.

DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. SHAPIRO

MR. SHAPIRO: Good afternoon, Mr. Norris.

MR. NORRIS: Good afternoon.

MR. SHAPIRO: A little nervous today?

MR. NORRIS: Yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: We ask you just try to relax. I have a very few questions for you this afternoon.

MR. NORRIS: Okay.

MR. SHAPIRO: Would you briefly tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury what your education is after high school?

MR. NORRIS: After high school, I attended El Camino Junior College for a year and a half and transferred to Fort Haye State University in Kansas, and I attended there for two and a half years.

MR. SHAPIRO: And what fields did you study?

MR. NORRIS: Physical education and sociology.

MR. SHAPIRO: Do you ever plan on returning to school?

MR. NORRIS: Yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: Are you currently employed?

MR. NORRIS: Yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: And what is your current employment?

MR. NORRIS: I currently work full-time for Southern Cal Gas and I work part-time for Network Courier.

MR. SHAPIRO: And Network Courier is a delivery service?

MR. NORRIS: Yes, sir.

MR. SHAPIRO: How long have you been employed by Network Courier?

MR. NORRIS: In August, it will be four years.

MR. SHAPIRO: Are you married?

MR. NORRIS: Yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: Have a family?

MR. NORRIS: Yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: Were you at the airport on June the 12th, 1994 as a courier?

MR. NORRIS: Yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: And why is that date important to you?

MR. NORRIS: That was the night that we met or saw O.J. Simpson at the airport and learned the next day that his ex-wife had been murdered.

MR. SHAPIRO: When you say "We," were you with someone else at the airport?

MR. NORRIS: Yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: Who were you with?

MR. NORRIS: Mike gladden.

MR. SHAPIRO: And is he here this afternoon?

MR. NORRIS: Yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: Where were you when you--did you observe a limousine that evening?

MR. NORRIS: Yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: What time did you observe the limousine?

MR. NORRIS: Approximately 11:20 to 11:25.

MR. SHAPIRO: Where were you when you observed the limousine?

MR. NORRIS: Walking to get into our vans. We had just dropped some packages off at the airport.

MR. SHAPIRO: And did you take particular notice of this limousine?

MR. NORRIS: Yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: For any particular reason?

MR. NORRIS: Yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: What was the reason?

MR. NORRIS: It pulled up right next to our vans and kind of blocked us in.

MR. SHAPIRO: Did you see someone open the door to the limousine?

MR. NORRIS: Yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: Who opened the door of the limousine?

MR. NORRIS: The limousine driver.

MR. SHAPIRO: And did you see someone get out of the limousine?

MR. NORRIS: Yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: Did you recognize that person?

MR. NORRIS: Yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: Who did you recognize that person as?

MR. NORRIS: O.J. Simpson.

MR. SHAPIRO: About what time was it that you saw Mr. Simpson get out of the limousine at the airport?

MR. NORRIS: Between 11:20 and 11:25.

MR. SHAPIRO: Was he carrying anything when he got out of the limousine?

MR. NORRIS: I don't remember him carrying anything when he got out.

MR. SHAPIRO: What did you see him do when he got out of the limousine?

MR. NORRIS: He walked to the--well, as he got out, I said, "Hey, what's up O.J.," and then he walked to the back of the limo.

MR. SHAPIRO: Did he respond at all to you?

MR. NORRIS: Yes, he did.

MR. SHAPIRO: What did he respond?

MR. NORRIS: He said, "Hey, what's happening?"

MR. SHAPIRO: Did he look at you when he said that?

MR. NORRIS: Yes, he did.

MR. SHAPIRO: About how far away from you was he?

MR. NORRIS: I'd say approximately about eight feet.

MR. SHAPIRO: About the distance we are here or a little closer?

MR. NORRIS: About the same distance.

MR. SHAPIRO: And to your knowledge, did your friend say anything to Mr. Simpson?

MR. NORRIS: He asked him could he get an autograph.

MR. SHAPIRO: And did Mr. Simpson reply?

MR. NORRIS: Yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: What did he reply?

MR. NORRIS: "Hold on just a minute while I take care of my luggage."

MR. SHAPIRO: Did he then go somewhere in the direction of the limousine?

MR. NORRIS: Yes. He went towards the back of the limousine.

MR. SHAPIRO: And did you see him do something?

MR. NORRIS: Yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: What did you see him do?

MR. NORRIS: He was in a bag, one of the bags in the back of the limousine. Well, it was on the ground.

MR. SHAPIRO: Did he open the bag?

MR. NORRIS: Yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: Did he appear to take something out?

MR. NORRIS: Yes.

MS. CLARK: Objection. This is all leading, your Honor.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. SHAPIRO: What did you see him do with the bag at the back of the limousine?

MR. NORRIS: He went--was going through the bag and he looked like he pulled out a piece of paper or could have been a ticket or anything like--something like that.

MR. SHAPIRO: Did it appear similar to the size of what--

MS. CLARK: Objection, your Honor. Leading.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. SHAPIRO: Are you familiar with what airline tickets look like?

MR. NORRIS: Yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: And compared to what airline tickets look like, did you have any opinion as to whether this was consistent with that?

MR. NORRIS: Yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: And what was your opinion?

MR. NORRIS: That it looked like an airline ticket.

MR. SHAPIRO: What did you see Mr. Simpson do at that point in time?

MR. NORRIS: Umm, he put a bag over his shoulder and had a bag in his hand and he remembered to give Mike an autograph.

MR. SHAPIRO: Did you see him sign the autograph for Mike?

MR. NORRIS: Yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: Did you have a--can you tell us what--how Mr. Simpson appeared during the period of time that you saw him?

MR. NORRIS: Umm, he just appeared like, you know, nonchalant, just like he was going, you know, getting ready to leave on a flight. I mean--

MR. SHAPIRO: How did he look to you? Could you describe that to the jury?

MR. NORRIS: He looked natural. He was dressed real nice, you know, had on like stone-washed type denim outfit, you know, trying to look kind of young, you know, just--I mean he was just, you know, just trying to be cool, you know.

MR. SHAPIRO: And would you describe his demeanor to the jury?

MR. NORRIS: He just--I mean, he just was like smooth, just, you know, hey, just walking through like, "I'm O.J."

MR. SHAPIRO: Did he appear to be rushed in any way?

MR. NORRIS: No.

MR. SHAPIRO: Did he appear to be distracted in any way?

MR. NORRIS: No.

MR. SHAPIRO: Did he appear to be preoccupied in any way?

MR. NORRIS: No.

MR. SHAPIRO: Did you--you said he was wearing some stone-washed clothes. Is that similar to a denim material?

MR. NORRIS: Yes. Like a blue jean type material.

MR. SHAPIRO: And can you describe the hue of that material?

MR. NORRIS: Excuse me?

MR. SHAPIRO: The darkness or lightness of that material.

MR. NORRIS: It's more of a light color. That's--it's like a stone wash. It's like a lighter denim, lighter blue jean type. It wasn't like a dark like 405 type blue jean. It was, you know, much lighter.

THE COURT: You mean 501.

MR. NORRIS: 501. Right. Sorry.

THE COURT: Just relax, Mr. Norris.

MR. NORRIS: Okay.

MR. SHAPIRO: Now, during the period that you saw O.J. Simpson, did you observe his hands?

MR. NORRIS: Yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: Did you see any cuts on his hands?

MR. NORRIS: No.

MR. SHAPIRO: See any band aids on his hands?

MR. NORRIS: No.

MR. SHAPIRO: See any bruises on his face?

MR. NORRIS: No.

MR. SHAPIRO: Did he appear to be sweating?

MR. NORRIS: No.

MR. SHAPIRO: Did anything at all appear to be out of the ordinary to you when you saw Mr. Simpson?

MR. NORRIS: No.

MR. SHAPIRO: Was he cordial?

MR. NORRIS: Yes. Very. I mentioned to him that Marcus was out there earlier. I had heard Marcus was there, and he said, "Yes, I know." And I asked him about his son, if he was still at SC, and he said, "No. He's through."

MR. SHAPIRO: So he had enough time for small talk for you?

MR. NORRIS: Right.

MR. SHAPIRO: And you said initially he told your friend he had to take care of his luggage, but then he came back and gave the autograph?

MR. NORRIS: Right. That's correct.

MR. SHAPIRO: And do you know if your friend Michael still has that autograph?

MR. NORRIS: Yes, he does.

MR. SHAPIRO: Did you come with him today?

MR. NORRIS: Yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: You both still work together as couriers?

MR. NORRIS: Yes. And also coach together.

MR. SHAPIRO: And you coach. What do you coach?

MR. NORRIS: Senior League All Stars in Santa Monica.

MR. SHAPIRO: What is that?

MR. NORRIS: Baseball. Baseball. We have a big game tonight.

MR. SHAPIRO: What age are your--

MR. NORRIS: 13--actually, it's 14 and 15-year olds.

MR. SHAPIRO: And do you have a son or daughter who plays on that team?

MR. NORRIS: No, I don't.

MR. SHAPIRO: You're just a volunteer coach?

MR. NORRIS: Yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: Thank you very much for coming this afternoon.

MR. NORRIS: Okay.

THE COURT: Miss Clark.

MS. CLARK: Thank you, your Honor.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. CLARK

MS. CLARK: Good afternoon, Mr. Norris.

MR. NORRIS: How you doing, Miss Clark?

MS. CLARK: Okay. I just have a few questions for you, sir.

MR. NORRIS: Okay.

MS. CLARK: So when you saw the Defendant on the date of June the 12th at the airport, he appeared just like you'd seen him on TV commercials and stuff, right?

MR. NORRIS: Right.

MS. CLARK: Just what you expected?

MR. NORRIS: Right.

MS. CLARK: All right. You didn't see him at 10:00 o'clock, correct?

MR. NORRIS: No, I didn't.

MS. CLARK: And you didn't see him at 10:15?

MR. NORRIS: No.

MS. CLARK: Not at 10:30?

MR. NORRIS: No.

MS. CLARK: And not at 11:00 o'clock?

MR. NORRIS: No.

MS. CLARK: So you don't know what he looked like when he got into the limousine at around 11:00 or 11:10?

MR. NORRIS: No.

MS. CLARK: You said that he was wearing stone-washed jeans, light colored denim?

MR. NORRIS: Yes.

MS. CLARK: Do you remember what kind of shirt he was wearing, sir?

MR. NORRIS: It was like a denim-type shirt. I have one similar to it. It's light in color. Like, you know, a blue jean shirt.

MS. CLARK: Right. Was it long sleeved, sir?

MR. NORRIS: Yes.

MS. CLARK: Can you describe for us the--you indicated that--excuse me. Strike that. He went to the back of the limousine, correct?

MR. NORRIS: Yes.

MS. CLARK: And you saw him get a bag out of the back of the trunk of the limousine?

MR. NORRIS: I didn't see him get out.

MS. CLARK: He reached in to it?

MR. NORRIS: No. The bag was already--I believe was already out on the ground.

MS. CLARK: Okay. Can you describe that bag for us, sir?

MR. NORRIS: It was black.

MS. CLARK: Can you show us with your hands how big it was?

MR. NORRIS: I couldn't tell you exactly how big it was.

MS. CLARK: Would the style of the bag be like a duffel bag?

MR. NORRIS: Yes.

MS. CLARK: That sounds right to you?

MR. NORRIS: Uh-huh.

MS. CLARK: And could you remember--I'm sorry. Is that yes?

MR. NORRIS: Yes. I'm sorry.

MS. CLARK: And was it black?

MR. NORRIS: Yes.

MS. CLARK: Okay. And that was on the ground next to the trunk of the limousine, was it?

MR. NORRIS: Yes.

MS. CLARK: Do you recall seeing any Louie Vuitton garment bag?

MR. NORRIS: No.

MS. CLARK: To the best of your recollection, sir, would that duffel type bag that you saw him reach into on the ground next to the trunk of the limo be about three feet long, maybe one foot high? I'm gesturing with my hands. Does that seem about right to you, sir?

MR. NORRIS: I'm not sure exactly on the size of it because it was on the ground and I couldn't--I couldn't tell you exactly how big it was.

MS. CLARK: Could you tell us, sir, whether it was a small bag, a medium size or a larger bag?

MR. NORRIS: Umm, I can't--not exactly. I couldn't tell you. I mean, it was on the ground and I couldn't tell you the full length of it. No, I couldn't.

MS. CLARK: Have you ever seen anything like the size of a book bag, you know, like kids carry, knapsack type bag?

MR. NORRIS: Yes.

MS. CLARK: Okay. Was it that size or was it larger than that?

MR. NORRIS: I would say it would be larger than that.

MS. CLARK: Okay. When you saw him get out of the limousine, sir, was he carrying any small dark bag like about the size of a book bag or knapsack with him?

MR. NORRIS: I don't recall him carrying anything.

MS. CLARK: Okay. Do you recall seeing a bag like that in his possession when you saw him at the airport on the night of June the 12th, small dark knapsack or book size bag?

MR. NORRIS: Umm, I would say the smallest bag would be like an athletic bag.

MS. CLARK: Like the one you just described to us on the ground next to the trunk of the limousine?

MR. NORRIS: Right.

MS. CLARK: That was the smallest that you saw him with?

MR. NORRIS: That would be the smallest that I would say I saw him with, yes.

MS. CLARK: Okay. So then you did not see him in possession of any smaller dark bag like the size of a book bag or knapsack?

MR. NORRIS: No.

MS. CLARK: Okay. And you did not see the Louie Vuitton garment bag?

MR. NORRIS: No.

MS. CLARK: So could you describe for us the bags that you did see him with?

MR. NORRIS: There was a golf bag, the bag that he had--that he was--had in the back of the limo, he put over his shoulder and he carried an athletic bag.

MS. CLARK: And the bag that he carried over his shoulder, what kind of bag was that, sir?

MR. NORRIS: It was a black bag.

MS. CLARK: Okay. And did it look kind of like a garment bag?

MR. NORRIS: I don't remember if it was more of a garment bag or not.

MS. CLARK: Okay. Can you show us how he carried that over his shoulder, sir?

MR. NORRIS: He just put it over his shoulder like that and was holding it like this (Indicating).

MS. CLARK: Okay. Do you recall which hand he had in, his left or his right?

MR. NORRIS: He had it in his--over his--I believe over his right shoulder.

MS. CLARK: Okay. When he--

THE COURT: Describe that motion.

MS. CLARK: Strike that? I'm sorry?

THE COURT: You want to describe that motion that he just made for the record?

MS. CLARK: Yes. He made a motion with his right hand up to his right shoulder.

MR. NORRIS: Yeah. More or less like (Indicating).

MS. CLARK: Okay. Kind of like the way you would carry a garment bag, sir?

MR. NORRIS: Yes.

MS. CLARK: When you first greeted each other, did you shake hands?

MR. NORRIS: No.

MS. CLARK: You just said hi?

MR. NORRIS: Right.

MS. CLARK: And then your friend--at the point that your friend asked for his autograph, he had already gotten his bags, correct?

MR. NORRIS: No.

MS. CLARK: What had he done?

MR. NORRIS: He was going to the trunk to get his bags, and my friend was standing next--like at the back of the van where he was and asked him could he get that autograph.

MS. CLARK: And he said, "Hold on a second. I've just got to get my bags"?

MR. NORRIS: "Let me take care of my bags." Yeah.

MS. CLARK: And then he did go take care of his bags; is that right?

MR. NORRIS: Correct.

MS. CLARK: And then he picked up that black garment bag and put it over his shoulder?

MR. NORRIS: Well, yeah. A black bag.

MS. CLARK: Okay. A black bag that looked like a garment bag?

MR. NORRIS: Could be. I don't know.

MS. CLARK: Something he carried over his shoulder?

MR. NORRIS: Yes.

MS. CLARK: All right. And then he picked up the other duffle-type bag that was on the ground; is that right?

MR. NORRIS: No. The bag that he was--that he looked like he pulled a ticket, something out of, that's the bag he put over his shoulder.

MS. CLARK: Okay. He put that over his shoulder?

MR. NORRIS: Right.

MS. CLARK: And there was another black bag?

MR. NORRIS: An athletic bag.

MS. CLARK: An athletic bag?

MR. NORRIS: Uh-huh.

MS. CLARK: Okay. And how did he carry that athletic bag?

MR. NORRIS: In his hand.

MS. CLARK: Okay. And then he went to sign--at that point, did he go to sign your friend--give him his autograph?

MR. NORRIS: Well, he got ready to walk away, and then he remembered, he said, "Oh," and he said, "Here," and he gave him his autograph.

MS. CLARK: And what hand did he sign with?

MR. NORRIS: He had the--the paper I believe was in his left hand and the pen with his right hand.

MS. CLARK: So he put down the black bag?

MR. NORRIS: He had a bag--okay. Go ahead.

MS. CLARK: So did he put down both bags that he was carrying in order to do the autograph?

MR. NORRIS: No.

MS. CLARK: What did he do?

MR. NORRIS: He kept one bag on his shoulder and he wrote the autograph.

MS. CLARK: And what did he sign--which hand did he sign with?

MR. NORRIS: The right hand.

MS. CLARK: So then he was carrying the other bag over his shoulder with his left; is that right?

MR. NORRIS: No. It was on his right arm. It was a strap, a strap--he had it over on his arm, right, and he signed with his hand.

MS. CLARK: What happened to the other bag?

MR. NORRIS: The other bag he put down.

MS. CLARK: He put down. Okay. That's what I meant. So did he hold--I'm going to show you, I'm holding this legal pad, okay? Did he hold the pad with his left hand and sign with his right?

MR. NORRIS: Yes. It's a little yellow sticker paper.

MS. CLARK: Kind of like--we just happen to have a few.

MR. NORRIS: The post-it's. Exactly.

MS. CLARK: Like this?

MR. NORRIS: No. Like those.

MS. CLARK: The bigger one?

MR. NORRIS: Yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: May we mark that, your Honor?

THE COURT: The size is of interest.

MS. CLARK: Yes. Okay. I'll mark it.

THE COURT: I'm sure post-it will tell us what size that is.

MS. CLARK: What size is this?

MR. NORRIS: About 3-by-5.

MS. CLARK: 3-by-5?

MR. NORRIS: Similar.

MS. CLARK: I'll go with that. This seems about right.

MS. CLARK: So was he holding it with his left hand like I'm holding it now kind of on top, hand underneath?

MR. NORRIS: I couldn't tell you exactly how he held it.

MS. CLARK: But he held it with his left hand?

MR. NORRIS: He had it in his left hand.

MS. CLARK: And he signed with his right?

MR. NORRIS: Yeah.

MS. CLARK: So his left hand was underneath--his left middle finger at least was underneath the pad of paper, correct?

MR. NORRIS: I couldn't tell you that.

MS. CLARK: Did you see his left middle finger while he was signing the autograph?

MR. NORRIS: No.

MS. CLARK: Were you studying his hands very carefully, sir, to see if there was any injury to them?

MR. NORRIS: No.

MS. CLARK: You didn't expect him to be injured that night, did you?

MR. NORRIS: No.

MS. CLARK: Now, when he reached down into that black duffle bag, did you see him grunt or grimace in pain as he bent over?

MR. NORRIS: No.

MS. CLARK: Did he have any--seem to have any trouble unzipping that bag, sir?

MR. NORRIS: I didn't notice him unzip it.

MS. CLARK: Okay. Did you see him take out the ticket or what appeared to be an airline ticket?

MR. NORRIS: Excuse me?

MS. CLARK: Did you see him take out what appeared to you to be an airline ticket?

MR. NORRIS: Yes.

MS. CLARK: And did you see him straighten up from lifting--taking that out of the duffle bag?

MR. NORRIS: Yes.

MS. CLARK: And did he seem to have any trouble bending over or standing up?

MR. NORRIS: No.

MS. CLARK: Now, at the time that you saw Mr. Simpson that night, sir, you did not know that the murders of Nicole Brown and Ronald Goldman had occurred, did you?

MR. NORRIS: No.

MS. CLARK: And so you did not know at that time that the murderer had been cut and bled as he fled the scene, correct?

MR. NORRIS: No.

MR. SHAPIRO: Objection, your Honor.

THE COURT: Sustained. The answer is stricken.

MS. CLARK: You didn't know anything about the case, correct?

MR. NORRIS: No.

MS. CLARK: And there was no particular reason that you expected to see any cut or injury on Mr. Simpson, correct?

MR. NORRIS: Correct.

MS. CLARK: And you were not studying his face or his hands or his body to examine them for bruises or cuts because you didn't expect to find that, correct?

MR. NORRIS: Correct.

MS. CLARK: Now, was that the first time you had ever met him, the Defendant, in person?

MR. NORRIS: Umm, I've seen him in person before.

MS. CLARK: And how was that, sir? At the airport?

MR. NORRIS: No. When we were--when I was younger, our family went to Knotts Berry Farm, and his family was at Knotts Berry Farm.

MS. CLARK: Okay. And did you speak to him on that occasion?

MR. NORRIS: I don't remember. I know my stepmother had took a picture of them and their family. I know that. So I really don't remember speaking to him.

MS. CLARK: Okay. How many years ago was that?

MR. NORRIS: Hmm, is probably, you know, about `75, `76.

MS. CLARK: That was the only other time you had seen him?

MR. NORRIS: And I've seen him in Westwood before just like driving around or something like that.

MS. CLARK: Okay. You didn't speak to him on those occasions?

MR. NORRIS: No.

MS. CLARK: And you saw him, he was driving in his car, was he?

MR. NORRIS: Yeah.

MS. CLARK: What kind of car was that?

MR. NORRIS: I don't recall. It's been--it was in like the mid 80's.

MS. CLARK: Okay. And so are those all the contacts you've ever had the times you've seen the Defendant?

MR. NORRIS: Yes.

MS. CLARK: So you only spoke to him on this one occasion on June the 12th, correct?

MR. NORRIS: Yes.

MS. CLARK: So would it be fair to state that you don't know how he usually looks in a social setting with other people, correct?

MR. NORRIS: Yes.

MS. CLARK: And would it be also fair to say that if there was some subtle difference in the way he was acting on the night of June the 12th, you wouldn't know that?

MR. NORRIS: Right.

MS. CLARK: And if the Defendant had been sweating at 10:00 o'clock or 10:15 or 10:30 that night, you wouldn't know about that, would you, sir?

MR. NORRIS: No.

MS. CLARK: And if he had been bleeding at 10:00 o'clock, 10:15 or 10:30 that night, you wouldn't know that either, would you, sir?

MR. SHAPIRO: Objection. Irrelevant.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. NORRIS: No.

MS. CLARK: Thank you, Mr. Norris.

THE COURT: All right. Mr. Shapiro.

MR. SHAPIRO: Thank you very much, your Honor.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. SHAPIRO

MR. SHAPIRO: Mr. Norris, you told us that the first time you saw Mr. Simpson was 11:20; isn't that correct?

MR. NORRIS: Correct.

MR. SHAPIRO: So clearly, anything that happened before that, you would have no way of knowing what took place, would you?

MS. CLARK: Objection. Leading.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. NORRIS: No.

MR. SHAPIRO: When you looked at Mr. Simpson, are you sure that you didn't see--well, strike that. Did you see any cuts on his hands at all?

MS. CLARK: Objection. Asked and answered.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. NORRIS: No.

MR. SHAPIRO: You described the bag that he was carrying as having a strap?

MR. NORRIS: Yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: And after he gave the autograph to your friend Mike, did you see where he went?

MR. NORRIS: Towards the door of the air--in the airport.

MR. SHAPIRO: Did you ever see him stop at a trash can and throw anything in a trash can?

MR. NORRIS: No.

MR. SHAPIRO: And did you have any conversation with Mike relating to the way Mr. Simpson looked that night?

MR. NORRIS: Yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: What did you say?

MS. CLARK: Objection. Hearsay.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. SHAPIRO: How did you describe the way he looked?

MS. CLARK: Objection. Hearsay.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. SHAPIRO: Did you describe--did you verbalize the way he appeared?

MR. NORRIS: Yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: And how did he appear?

MS. CLARK: Objection, your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. NORRIS: He appeared to be--like I mentioned to Mike, appeared to be, you know, trying to dress young.

MS. CLARK: Objection. Objection.

THE COURT: Excuse me. Hold on. Mr. Norris, just tell us, without telling us what you told anybody else--

MR. NORRIS: Okay.

THE COURT: --how did Mr. Simpson appear to you that evening?

MR. NORRIS: He appeared to dress real young, dress real nice and, you know, just--I mean, he was dressed real casual.

MR. SHAPIRO: And his attitude and demeanor was what?

MR. NORRIS: Real nice.

MS. CLARK: Objection. Asked and answered.

MR. SHAPIRO: Thank you. Nothing further, your Honor.

THE COURT: Miss Clark.

MS. CLARK: May I have one moment, your Honor?

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. CLARK

MS. CLARK: After Mr. Simpson gave your friend an autograph, Mr. Simpson walked away; is that correct?

MR. NORRIS: Correct.

MS. CLARK: You stopped observing him at that point, correct?

MR. NORRIS: As he walked to the door.

MS. CLARK: Uh-huh. Did you turn to watch him as he walked to the door?

MR. NORRIS: Yes.

MS. CLARK: Did he appear to limp?

MR. NORRIS: No.

MS. CLARK: Walked okay, didn't he?

MR. NORRIS: Yes.

MS. CLARK: All right. Did you ever see him talk to the skycap at the skycap station there outside the doors?

MR. NORRIS: That's when we left, about the time the skycap was coming back out.

MS. CLARK: Okay. So at the point when he went, got to the skycap, you took off?

MR. NORRIS: When he walked to the door to where he would meet the skycaps at, that's where we left.

MS. CLARK: All right. So you were not present to observe any interaction between him and the skycap or anything that transpired at that point because you left?

MR. NORRIS: Right.

MS. CLARK: Thank you, sir. Your Honor, can I mark the post-it?

THE COURT: Yes.

MS. CLARK: People's next in order, what is it?

THE COURT: 502.

MS. CLARK: 502?

THE COURT: 502.

(Peo's 502 for id = post-it)

THE COURT: Anything else, Mr. Shapiro?

MR. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, may Mr. Norris be excused?

THE COURT: Yes, he may. Mr. Norris, thank you very much, sir.

MR. NORRIS: All right.

THE COURT: All right. Next witness.

MR. COCHRAN: I would call Mr. Mike gladden, your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. Mr. Cochran, you need to hold on just a second. Hold on just a second. Mr. Gladden?

MR. NORRIS: Yes.

THE COURT: Hold on a second. We're missing two of the jurors.

MS. CLARK: I think we may have a 1054 issue. We probably need to resolve it.

(A conference was held at the bench, not reported.)

(The following proceedings were held in open court:)

THE COURT: We're waiting for a juror and waiting for Mrs. Robertson.

(Brief pause.)

THE COURT: All right. The record should reflect we've been rejoined by all the members of our jury panel. Mr. Cochran, you may call your next witness.

MR. COCHRAN: Thank you very kindly, your Honor. Mr. Michael gladden.

Michael gladden, called as a witness by the Defendant, was sworn and testified as follows:

THE COURT: All right. Mr. Gladden, would you face the clerk, please.

THE CLERK: Raise your right hand. You do solemnly swear that the testimony you may give in the cause now pending before this court shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

MR. GLADDEN: I do.

THE CLERK: Please have a seat on the witness stand and spell your first and last names for the record.

MR. GLADDEN: Michael gladden, G-L-A-D-D-E-N.

THE CLERK: Thank you.

THE COURT: Mr. Cochran.

MR. COCHRAN: Thank you, your Honor.

DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. COCHRAN

MR. COCHRAN: Good afternoon, Mr. Gladden.

MR. GLADDEN: Good afternoon.

MR. COCHRAN: Sir, I'd like to ask you what your occupation is.

MR. GLADDEN: Well, I work at a service deli at pavilions and I also work part-time as a courier.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And as a courier, do you work with another gentleman by the name of Michael Norris?

MR. GLADDEN: Yes, I do.

MR. COCHRAN: And is he the gentleman who just preceded you on the stand?

MR. GLADDEN: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: How long have you work as a courier, sir?

MR. GLADDEN: Probably a little over two years.

MR. COCHRAN: And is that for Network Courier services?

MR. GLADDEN: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Now, sir, I would like to direct your attention back to the date of June 12th of 1994. Remember that particular date?

MR. GLADDEN: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And did you have occasion to be out at LAX, Los Angeles International Airport, on that particular date in the evening hours after 11:00 o'clock?

MR. GLADDEN: Yes, I did.

MR. COCHRAN: And would you describe for the jury where you were after 11:00 o'clock, after 11:15 on that particular evening?

MR. GLADDEN: The upstairs parking lot at American airlines.

MR. COCHRAN: And when you say "Parking lot," were you parked--

MR. GLADDEN: By the curb.

MR. COCHRAN: By the curb at American airlines?

MR. GLADDEN: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And let's call that terminal 4. And you were parked outside of American airlines terminal 4?

MR. GLADDEN: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And how long had you been parked there?

MR. GLADDEN: Probably about 10, 15 minutes or so.

MR. COCHRAN: Had you done some work in that building that particular day?

MR. GLADDEN: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: Had you concluded your work at that point?

MR. GLADDEN: Yes, I had.

MR. COCHRAN: And what were you parked in?

MR. GLADDEN: In a company van.

MR. COCHRAN: And that's a van for the Network Courier services?

MR. GLADDEN: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Were you and Mr. Norris in the same van, sir?

MR. GLADDEN: No, we weren't.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. So you were in one van, he was in the other?

MR. GLADDEN: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And you were seated at the curb in your van?

MR. GLADDEN: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And at that point, did something unusual happen?

MR. GLADDEN: Yeah. Yes. A limousine pulled up with Mr. Simpson in it.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. The limousine pulled up. And where did the limousine go in relation to your van, if you recall?

MR. GLADDEN: Well, my van was parked a little further down from where I was standing talking to Mr. Norris.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. At the time this limousine pulled up, you were outside your van at that point?

MR. GLADDEN: I was outside Mike Norris' van.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And both of you were outside the van at that point or was Norris inside?

MR. GLADDEN: I think he was sitting in his.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. But at any rate, this limousine pulled up; is that correct?

MR. GLADDEN: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: Did the limousine park at some point?

MR. GLADDEN: Yes. Right almost where I was standing.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And did you see someone get out of that vehicle?

MR. GLADDEN: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: Who was that?

MR. GLADDEN: Mr. Simpson.

MR. COCHRAN: That's the gentleman seated here to my left?

MR. GLADDEN: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And you observed him, you knew who Mr. Simpson was; is that right?

MR. GLADDEN: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: At that point, did you say something to Mike Norris at that point?

MR. GLADDEN: I don't think so. I think Mike said, "There's--" umm, he said, "Hey, what's up, O.J.," or something like that.

MR. COCHRAN: There was some conversation that transpired between Mr. Mike Norris and Mr. O.J. Simpson; is that correct?

MR. GLADDEN: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Now, when you saw Mr. O.J. Simpson, at some point, did you see him get out of the limousine?

MR. GLADDEN: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And did you see him go someplace after he got out of the limousine?

MR. GLADDEN: He went to the back of the limo.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And did you see him at that point with any luggage at any point?

MR. GLADDEN: I didn't recall seeing it.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Now, at some point, did you ask Mr. Simpson to do something for you?

MR. GLADDEN: Yeah. Later on, I asked him for an autograph.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And now, let's back up for a moment. What time was it to the best of your recollection when you first saw Mr. Simpson outside that limousine on June 12th, 1994?

MR. GLADDEN: Probably best estimation would be between 11:20, 11:25.

MR. COCHRAN: So at about 11:20 or 11:25 P.M., huh?

MR. GLADDEN: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: You saw Mr. Simpson, right?

MR. GLADDEN: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And at that time, do you recall now how he was dressed?

MR. GLADDEN: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: Give us a general description.

MR. GLADDEN: Kind of like--looked like he was wearing some jeans and like a jean shirt, long sleeved. Kind of looked like he had boots or something on.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And did you comment at that time about how he was dressed that night?

MR. GLADDEN: I think I was telling Mike Norris he looked like he was advertising or something.

MR. DARDEN: Objection. Hearsay, your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. COCHRAN: Unfortunately, I couldn't hear the response because of the objection.

THE COURT: Like he was advertising. Dressed like he was advertising.

MR. GLADDEN: Advertising his jeans and stuff.

THE COURT: All right. Excuse me. Mr. Gladden?

MR. GLADDEN: Yes.

THE COURT: Only speak when a question is asked of you, okay?

MR. GLADDEN: Yes.

THE COURT: Thank you. All right. Mr. Cochran.

MR. COCHRAN: Now, so he appeared neat to you, did he?

MR. GLADDEN: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: Did you--had you ever met O.J. Simpson before that night?

MR. GLADDEN: No.

MR. COCHRAN: Can you move that microphone a little closer to you? Thank you. You had never seen him before that night?

MR. GLADDEN: No, I haven't.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Did you see any bags or any skycaps or anyone around him with any bags that particular evening?

MR. GLADDEN: Not when he first came up, no, but--

MR. COCHRAN: At some point thereafter, did you see any bags?

MR. GLADDEN: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And can you tell the Court and jury, if you can think back in your mind, how many bags you saw, the total number of bags, if you recall?

MR. GLADDEN: Maybe between four and five.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Four and five bags. And then can you describe for us as you think back the color of the bags that you saw?

MR. GLADDEN: Probably all of them were black. I think there was like a brown looking smaller bag. It wasn't too small, but it was--

MR. COCHRAN: Was it like a carry-on, the brown one?

MR. GLADDEN: Something like that.

MR. COCHRAN: Do you know what a Louie Vuitton bag is?

MR. GLADDEN: Not really.

MR. COCHRAN: You don't know. But you recall that then, of the four or five bags, majority of them were black, is that right, in color?

MR. DARDEN: Objection. This is leading.

MR. GLADDEN: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: Well, I'm asking.

THE COURT: Overruled, but it is leading. He's already testified to it, but it is leading.

MR. COCHRAN: I just want to make sure. Okay, your Honor.

MR. COCHRAN: Why don't you tell us, of the bags that you saw, what color were they?

MR. GLADDEN: Pretty much or they were all black in color and there was probably one like brownish, tan looking bag.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Now--and when the limo first pulled up, was there a skycap available, if you know?

MR. GLADDEN: No.

MR. COCHRAN: And did you see the limousine driver do anything when he got out of the limousine?

MR. GLADDEN: Well, he came and opened the door for O.J., and then he was walking around when I--I looked over by the curb, and he was looking around for a skycap. He was just kind of standing there, and then I really wasn't paying attention what he did after that.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Now, at this point, did you get a chance to look at Mr. Simpson, see how he appeared to you?

MR. GLADDEN: Yeah. Pretty much so.

MR. COCHRAN: What was his demeanor? How did he look at that point to you?

MR. GLADDEN: Just kind of calm and just taking his time.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And at some point--you described for us how he was dressed. Did you at some point approach him where he was standing?

MR. GLADDEN: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And when you approached him, what did you say to him?

MR. GLADDEN: I said, "Hey, juice, can I get an autograph?"

MR. COCHRAN: And when you said that to him, what did he say, if anything?

MR. GLADDEN: He said, "Sure. Just let me get my luggage situated," or something to that effect.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And thereafter, did there come a time when he proceeded to try to get his luggage situated?

MR. GLADDEN: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: Did you see whether or not the limousine driver ever came back with some kind of a cart or something?

MR. GLADDEN: Yes, he did.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And these bags you described generally, where were they placed?

MR. GLADDEN: On that cart.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And did someone--did something happen to those bags after he placed them on the cart?

MR. GLADDEN: Yeah. The driver took them over to the curb.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And then what happened after that?

MR. GLADDEN: Well, looked like they had like most of the stuff on there, then I walked over like on the side of Mr. Simpson and then I--he had like turned and seen me, and he was like, "Oh, yeah. I forgot," or something like that, or, "Sorry," and then he said--and then he signed the autograph for me.

MR. COCHRAN: He said he was sorry?

MR. GLADDEN: Yes. Something like that.

MR. COCHRAN: And then he turned around and he signed this autograph for you?

MR. GLADDEN: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And to the best of your recollection, what time of evening was that that Mr. Simpson signed this autograph for you?

MR. GLADDEN: Well, it was probably about close to 11:30 by then.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. So it was about 11:30 on June 12th, 1994, he signed an autograph. And do you have that autograph with you today?

MR. GLADDEN: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And can--may I approach? Can you show it to me?

MR. GLADDEN: Sure.

MR. COCHRAN: You have it in a book there?

MR. GLADDEN: Yeah.

MR. COCHRAN: May I approach, your Honor?

THE COURT: You may.

MR. COCHRAN: Now, this--

MR. GLADDEN: You can take it out.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. This is a--you have a book. What is this book actually?

MR. GLADDEN: This is the book I put it in.

MR. COCHRAN: And do you have other autographs in this book or--

MR. GLADDEN: Yes. A few.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. You have a few autographs in this book? And this is the original autograph that Mr. Simpson signed for you on that night?

MR. GLADDEN: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And it says, "O.J. Simpson, peace to you"?

MR. GLADDEN: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And do you want to keep this autograph?

MR. GLADDEN: Sure.

MR. COCHRAN: And--all right.

MR. COCHRAN: Your Honor, with the Court's permission, I would like to mark as Defendant's next in order a copy that was made by your Honor's clerk or by Mr. Douglas over the lunch hour this autograph. I have given counsel a copy. I'd like to mark this as our next in order, place it on the elmo.

THE COURT: 1243. And we'll allow the photocopy to be substituted for the original.

MR. COCHRAN: Thank you very kindly, your Honor.

(Deft's 1243 for id = autograph)

MR. COCHRAN: May we for this purpose put the original on the monitor?

THE COURT: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: Now, the autograph seems to be on some kind of a yellow stickum kind of piece of paper; is that right?

MR. GLADDEN: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: How did that happen?

MR. GLADDEN: Well, I carry these like with me. When they tell me to go pick something up, I write down what flight number and what airline. So habit.

MR. COCHRAN: For the record, your Honor, I think he's referring to I guess a 3-by-5 yellow stickum that he took out of his pocket.

THE COURT: Post-it.

MR. COCHRAN: Post-it rather.

MR. GLADDEN: Yes.

THE COURT: Noted. What we'll do--it appears to me we're not going to conclude with Mr. Gladden's testimony this afternoon. We will allow the jury to examine the original, and then we'll substitute a photocopy at the appropriate time.

MR. COCHRAN: May I have one second?

(Brief pause.)

MR. COCHRAN: I would like to ask you a few other questions. Is that the original signature for Mr. Simpson on that particular night?

MR. GLADDEN: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And as you observed Mr. Simpson, did you have occasion to look at his hands?

MR. GLADDEN: Yeah. I noticed how big his hands were.

MR. COCHRAN: And did you see any cuts or bruises on his hands?

MR. GLADDEN: No.

MR. COCHRAN: You saw him, and can you describe for us, if you remember, how he wrote that autograph, what hand he wrote it with and whether he used both hands or not?

MR. GLADDEN: I think he held it with his left hand and signed with his right.

MR. COCHRAN: How close were you to him when he was signing?

MR. GLADDEN: Just to the side of him.

MR. COCHRAN: You were very close?

MR. GLADDEN: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: You could just reach out and touch him?

MR. GLADDEN: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: At that time, as you saw him sign this, "O.J., peace to you," did you have occasion to notice his demeanor at this time, how he appeared?

MR. GLADDEN: Pretty calm and relaxed.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Then after he signed this particular autograph and then you put it--as I understand the procedure, you took it on your post-it and you put it then in your book; is that correct?

MR. GLADDEN: Later on, yes.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Later on that evening; is that right?

MR. GLADDEN: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Now, where was Mr. Norris, if you know, at the time that Mr. Simpson was signing this autograph?

MR. GLADDEN: I think he was still over by his van.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. So he was further away at that point; is that correct?

MR. GLADDEN: Yes. His van was parked like toward the front of the limo and I was parked towards the back of it.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Now, after that, after Mr. Simpson signed the limo--strike that. After he signed the autograph, was there any further conversation between you and Mr. Simpson at that point?

MR. GLADDEN: I just said thank you, and he said, "You're welcome," and I think that was about it.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And did you see in what direction Mr. Simpson went at that point?

MR. GLADDEN: Towards the American airlines door.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And did you watch him as he went toward that door?

MR. GLADDEN: Not too closely.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. But at some point, did he leave your sight at some point?

MR. GLADDEN: When I pulled off.

MR. COCHRAN: All right.

MR. GLADDEN: He was still standing there when I looked--was pulling off.

MR. COCHRAN: You at some point went back to your van, did you?

MR. GLADDEN: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. At any time while you were out there, did you ever see Mr. Simpson at any time go near any of the trash cans out there?

MR. GLADDEN: No.